Notorious VS Pirate Hunter KARMA SYSTEM idea

@great-1-oak you see this as way to defend people that only want to play half the game. It is a pvpve game.

People that complain about pvpers are just as bad as the pvpers complaining about red sea runners. Yall are opting to only play half of the game.

I dont want to be marked on the map for sinking and stealing those are intended parts of gameplay.

Maybe we should mark highly successful pve players with green dots on the map so we can find treasure piñatas more often.

How come one group has the freedom to play they game the want and are good at while the other can’t.

Explain? What prevents one group from playing? Are the PVP players preventing someone from login to the game? Buy items, pick up treasure, earn renown? No. The Strict pve only players make it so.

pirates need something to fear also

They fear a slow moving sloop that suddenly makes a turn. Even if they shout "WERE FRENDLY"

karma rating. This rating will be based on your tendency to start attacks, sell other players quest items, spawn kill.

So now...players who decide to play as pirates are being punished? Even the Reaper Faction?
Also...you cant Sell...Quest items (I assume you TT you mean) and come on...SK...just scuttle.

When this happens you will be marked on the map so all can see.

So pretty much wearing the Reapers Mark/Faction flag.

other end you will be a pirate hunter you want be marked on the map

Again...Reapers Mark.

I strongly believe this is necessary to keep all players happy with the game.

Not the newbie players who are tricked into killing other crews, just so they can be hunted by a group of Hunters.

Pvp players will have a purpose beyond trolling the innocent pirates that don’t practice sword play as much.

Not all Pvp players are "trolls" and not all Pirates are Innocent.

In the golden ages of piracy government would hire sailors to hunt down the most notorious pirates,

In the SoT, there is no Government, this is why we as Pirates traveled here. To get away from them :p

I like it, like a bounty system.

How come one group has the freedom to play they game the want and are good at while the other can’t.

Welcome to a sandbox, where freedom hinges on the whims of what the other players will allow. The problem here is you are expecting people, who only play half the game, to succeed at something the game never promised from the start. This game never sold itself as anything but an open sandbox with a heavy emphasis on player interactions. That includes the sinking you kind. Players coming into this game expecting to sail in isolation from everyone else are sailing on expectations never promised.

Lets be real here, you are setting out to punish people for playing in a way you don't like. The reality here is stealing and fighting are pillars of this game. You don't punish people playing your game as advertised. Stealth, stealing, and battles are all intended in this game, time to stop taking attacks on your ship so personally. We are all subject the whims of all players, the rest of us just don't take it personal. Its just Sea of Thieves being Sea of Thieves at the end of the day.

What’s the fun in stealing candy from babies.

Players aren't babies, they are all players who agreed to the terms when they set sail. There is a victim complex here that needs to be stomped out.

Having pvprs hunting pvprs is fun. I played a pvp game a while back of martial arts, when you defeated someone that player could put a bounty on ya. It was awesome, except if you were caught you would do jail time. I stayed a few hours jailed.

1. Half of the value of any loot, is in the risk of loosing it.
2. The loot is not yours until you sell it/turn it in.
Those two things are more or less the unofficial rules in SoT.

Also consider this "fact".
The Reapers are the counter balance to the Emissary system. (You can get a bigger profit, BUT you are also hoisting a PvP beacon (the emissary flags), and the Reapers will hunt for you.)
Just as the PvP crews are the counter balance to the PvE farming.

Few games can cause such feelings of success or bitter defeat as SoT. The fact that people can get such strong feelings from a game is something that many other games try to achieve without success. Many of us SoT players want and need this risk of loosing it all. It really gives the virtual currency in this game its worth. You truly want to fight for it, you want to protect it by being sneaky. If there is no risk in loosing your loot, you will very quickly get bored of the game.

Also stealing and fighting over loot, was featured in the first trailers of SoT. Its a core feature in the game. Rare even made ninja outfits to help tuckers in their "projects", so that they can do their thing in the forts and events. Fighting over events and loot is just as important as the treasure hunt and exploring parts of the game.

@great-1-oak plain and simple if they dont want to be attacked they should play another game. Marking pvpers for only playing half the game means you should also mark pveers for only playing half the game.

These threads always focus on two parts of the community without ever considering the third group (who is actually the core demographic the game is designed towards) - the split players (or PvPvE players) who engage with all facets of the game.

Further, they never consider the other core principle of the game, everyone being on the same level field (something done to further accommodate the rest of the game). This has been generally touched on in some of the responses here, without directly calling it out.

Third, it doesn't include the last pillar of the game in that it is a session based game with a low population on any given server. This again ties into the other core foundations of the game to make it truly sing.

For instance, I am a PvPvE player myself. I both engage in PvE and PvP as part of my gameplay. I have a mixed group of friends - some of them are PvE oriented, some are PvP oriented, and some are like me and PvPvE oriented.

As it stands now, I am free to approach any given session how I like, and mix freely with any of my friends and their preference in regards to play style. If something like this were to be implemented this would throw a wrench into all of that - and would result in my playstyle being specifically singled out and essentially punished.

As you says, full PvP players won't mind this system as it pushes tougher battles to them which is exciting (though they may dislike the access to Loot). PvE strictly players will also like it because it pulls the heat off them and allows them to work in essential isolation (though they may get bored easily with the very basic PvE loop quickly without the risk of players). But me, the PvPvE player and the actual core demographic of the game, I will potentially bring a threat to those who are PvE oriented, I'll lose my ability to have each session start from scratch and let me go how I want to go that given moment, and will drive more of a wedge into my playstyle.

This seems wrong to me. I would argue the vast majority of players who stick with this game are from the core demographic (you may not see it as much, as online people are more likely to complain about things as if they are happy with how it is all going they are less inclined to speak up and rather just enjoy the game). The fringes will be either strictly PvP or PvE players (as these are the most prone to abandoning the game to go play something that better caters to their specific tastes, which is fine and should actually be encouraged).

The old adage of "games are for everyone" is good, but misses the fact that "not every individual game are for everyone" - an important distinction. There are so many preferences out there, and many are counterproductive to other preferences. The thing is, there are loads of games out there that focus on different things, and that is what makes so "games are for everyone" by accepting that "not all individual games are for everyone" at the end of the day. It would be silly for PvP players to get mad at Animal Crossing for producing a PvE based game, like it would be silly for PvE players to get mad at Call of Duty for producing a PvP game, like it is silly for PvE or PvP players to get made at Sea of Thieves for producing a PvPvE game. They are for different audiences.

Don't get me wrong, SoT hits some interesting hallmarks, which makes it intriguing to a lot of different players because the market doesn't fully cover options for this kind of game in all formats yet. I suspect that day will come and there are titles in development that will actually go a long way to getting this sorted. SoT just hit first, and they shipped with a game that features both which showed PvE and PvP players the potential for this kind of title. The problem is, it wasn't made for either of them specifically, but rather a middle ground kind of player.

All of this is to say, I don't think this idea will work in this kind of a game - not without having a strong knock on effect against the original core demographic for the game. And as such, I don't see any good reason to add it into place. Hopefully games come out that do better cater to these kind of ideas, and provide better focus for strictly PvE or PvP players to enjoy this aesthetic while also catering to their preference in playstyle.

Anyways, I feel like I am kind of rambling at this point, but I felt inclined to make my comments regardless. I know it won't stop these kinds of threads or the online back and forth between two very vocal fringe groups in this game, but hopefully it makes sense to some people out there.

See you on the Seas.

@great-1-oak
PvP players do have something to fear. You, if you get good enough to face them. I'm a PvEvP player, and when I get attacked on a voyage, I send the attackers to the Ferryman.
Plus, a core aspect of the game is the unknown intents of other players. If I had something above my head that signified that I get into PvP often, then do you think that anyone will trust me? I am friendly at times as well, something like this would ruin my chances of positive interactions.
Not to mention, a system like this could never reliably tell who the instigator of a fight is - and therefore a player who does mostly PvE but gets attacked often would be wrongly marked as notorious, hurting their chances of positive interaction.
You're supposed to tell this stuff but looking at the other player and their actions - imprecise as it is. You know a DA ship is looking for a rumble... And I never trust kraken sails! Or anyone, really. Unauthorized boarding of your ship is a good sign - I kill anyone that goes downstairs to see what I have in my barrels.

@great-1-oak said in Notorious VS Pirate Hunter KARMA SYSTEM idea:

@ghostpaw said in Notorious VS Pirate Hunter KARMA SYSTEM idea:

Just another thread started by someone who does not understand most SoT players are PvPvE players. This PvP vs PvE player mindset is always a clue that someone just doesn’t understand the game.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with you on this. Yes, I know a lot of players play all sides of the game, yet you neglect to realize there is a vast number of PVP only players. Hey and if they didn’t exist why would anyone be maddened by my suggestion to have this type of system. I personally find it funny this many people have commented against a simple suggestion to create more players. I’m not saying PvEers whorls have an impenetrable force field around them or that any play that attack another or stole some loot would have the luxury of carrying such a rutile as notorious or pirate hunter.

You have not proved that your suggestion would create more players.

There are as many PvE players as there are PvP players - if there wasn't a good chance they could steal something, no one would do it.

Again, PvEvP is the point of the game, not strictly PvP or PvE. For regular players, it's searching for loot on other ships when they want, and searching for loot from their own quests when they want.

@great-1-oak they are both at risk to eachother. The pve players could just run, or simply do drivebys and sell items off.

Sorry but punishing people for be pirates to protect adventurers ses silly.

@great-1-oak all the big questions that everyone is putting in aside, what constitutes “starting a fight”? Since I don’t usually purposefully sink players on tall tales (can’t really tell til you board and as a solo I don’t do so until they are under repair pressure and sinking) and never usually spawn camp unless I am trying to sink someone, the only real “bad” rating I would get is “attacking first”

Let’s look at the way SoT would calculate that. Is it the person who attacks another player first or hits their ship with cannons? In either case it would seem I could bait the prey ship into hitting my ship or shooting me first and then freely sink them. They also now have negative value for “attacking me first”

Outside of these ways, the game doesn’t really have much in the way of determining who the aggressor is in situations.

There already is a system in place that is supposed to highlight the PvP'ers and thats the Reapers. These PvP only crews who I might add are mostly veterans have done there time with PvE are looking for the only thing they find fun the game now and that's fighting other crews. The issue is, few people fly emissaries these days because of the fear of a Reaper 5 appearing on the map and be-lining everyone. I very rarely see servers full of emissaries these days. What else is left for these PvP'ers, hunt every ship down of course because they don't know who is carrying what and they hope that these random ships might pose a challenge.

What actually needs implementing is an upper tier of loot/events that is not easily accessible by newer players. Something end game that is repeatable and creates PvP to get this item or thing. Something along the lines of Athena vs Reapers, the 2 end game factions going at each other. If you distract the PvP'ers away to this, the newer players should have an easier time to work there way up and hopefully add more emissaries again. The game needs both the PvP'ers and PvE'ers.

@great-1-oak said in Notorious VS Pirate Hunter KARMA SYSTEM idea:

@redeyesith Ultimately, that’s not what I’m suggesting. I believe everyone should have the freedom to enjoy the game.

This is not gonna be possible as we have completely conflicting motives here across 3 different gameplay types: PvE, PvP, and PvPvE. This is exactly what I meant when I said "games are for everyone, but not every individual game is for everyone" because there is a conflict of interest which means a game needs to cater to a specific demographic to appease that type of player.

I just don’t understand, why people would find joy in attacking others who have no intent on fighting.

I would argue that they typically don't. These types of players complain a lot when they encounter someone who decides to run, or Scuttle, or what have you that makes the PvP unengaging. Are there some folks out there that fit this bill, sure, cause there are in fact people who obtain joy from ruining experiences for other people. We call them trolls. They exist, and they are a problem, but this system does very little to impact those people (as there are other ways to troll in this game that don't have to involve attacking people just to try and upset them, so they still have full ability to achieve their goals regardless of this system, they just change tactics).

I understand it happens, but really are you going to walk down the road and just punch some guy in the face because he has something you want, better yet make that guy a young child.

No, because real life has very different consequences in place than a videogame. And doing so in reality causes actual harm to other people, whereas doing it in the world of pixels is going to at most cause an emotional reaction but not actually harm anyone. This is not a valid comparison and only servers to try and make certain groups look like "the bad guys" when that isn't the case.

I’ve heard it then don’t play the game.

That is because this is actually solid advice. If the game doesn't actually tick your boxes, there are other games out there which should so it might be more productive to go and play something else. Because of the reality that I mentioned multiple times in the "games are for everyone, but not every individual game is for everyone" which is always important to keep in mind. Again, conflict within the preferences of gameplay.

Sea Of Thieves offers so much more than just a fight or the suspense of being perused and attacked.

Indeed, which is what makes it a PvPvE game. If it only contained that thrill it would be a PvP game which it isn't. It is designed to tick additional boxes for sure.

I believe with everyone working to together we can find an reasonable solution.

As I have pointed out, I don't think we can. We're talking about fitting a square block into a round hole here. Again, a conflict in gaming preference exists here, as it does with all games, and I don't think any of us here are going to solve this proverbial riddle. A PvE game is never going to appeal to a strictly PvP player. A PvP game is never going to appeal to a strictly PvE player. And a PvPvE game is going to leave both PvP players and PvE players frustrated that it is so hard to find the part of gameplay they enjoy without conflict from the other side. We see complaints from both fringes all the time wanting the game to change in ways that better suit their preference at the expense of other preferences or the core conceit of the game.

I understand this game is the first of its kind and has built its platform and n a certain type of player.

Indeed, and now that it has proven that all player styles have an interest in this kind of aesthetic I certainly hope other companies look to fill those niches in the PvE and PvP markets. I think they will find great success within their demographics with gameplay specifically oriented toward those preferences.

But why limit it to that.

As I noted, because of the reality of the situation and the conflict of preferences once again. You're never going to make a game that strictly appeals to all these player types when players of other types tend to conflict with each other. Someone is always gonna get the short end of the stick and end up liking the game less unless it changes to cater to them (which it shouldn't have to since it is catering to other players).

In the end I hear you and agree you should get the most out of the game you love playing!

Indeed, and for those who like aspects of this game while hating other parts of it, I sincerely hope the games they are looking for come to market at some point. I absolutely agree that this game has proved there is a market for it, just needs to be better tapped into so everyone can get what they want out of this concept.

@great-1-oak it's tough to come up with ideas that will please the majority. The game is split as someone said above into 3 types, PvP, PvE and the Hybrids. I do both myself. Alot of people who play this casually just don't get the time in to get the skillsets to defend properly. This game rewards time rather than just boosting a character skill, its old school. Stick around on the forums, the devs do listen on here and even if an idea is not popular, you've still voiced an opinion and that's yours to have.

Wind in your sails.

@great-1-oak

No one can make a pvp player play the other side of the game. Well that’s not true for the person wanting to do quest. I understand it’s a sand box game and that’s part of the game.

I'm just wondering how much you do understand.. I've had many sessions solo avoiding PvP but I have never had a PvE free session. Ever.. It is so easy to avoid other players most of the time once you understand how to and makes for a different but very interesting sort of gameplay. It's amazing how many times you get to Reapers with a chest or bounty unbothered for example..

Your plan also doesn't really take into account the fact there are only 5 ships per server and the map's kind of biggish and not everybody starts playing at the same time and servers merge and crews change yada yada.. Whenever a ship sights another ship as things stand there is generally an encounter of some sort, don't know why one wouldn't still sniff loot and do piratey things anyway. Nobody is going to base a sessions worth on hoping they might find some high level notorious pirate..

They have a good rounded formula going really and just tweak it occasionally.. Rarely anything much though.