@danielalex3266 I am not arguing ship names and sizes, only that we already have a one man ship. We need not a smaller ship to do what the sloop does, but larger ships to do what the galleon can not.
1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat
@klutchxking518 said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
only that we already have a one man ship.
No, we have a 2 man ship.
@mferr11 I feel it is more of a 1 man ship, it's perfectly manageable alone, unlike undermanning a galleon or brig. The sloop works perfectly solo, and a duo only helps
@ll-predator-il sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
The bow of the ship has to be removed.
If not... we are going to be shooting ourselves all the time. When the water is rocking that thing will be right infront of the cannon.Thats a really good point. But I am hesitant to remove the bowsprit completly. You need it for figureheads.
I have tried making the bowsprit shorter and angling it further down.
@danielalex3266 said:
You can have both a 1-player-ship and 5/6-player ships.
The only real debate is see here is one about development time.
Actually, balance is the key debate and reasoning behind why it's not currently, or likely ever will be, a thing.
@galactic-geek sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
@danielalex3266 said:
You can have both a 1-player-ship and 5/6-player ships.
The only real debate is see here is one about development time.
Actually, balance is the key debate and reasoning behind why it's not currently, or likely ever will be, a thing.
Could you clarify if you're talking about 1-player ships or 5/6-player ships?
@danielalex3266 said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
@galactic-geek sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
@danielalex3266 said:
You can have both a 1-player-ship and 5/6-player ships.
The only real debate is see here is one about development time.
Actually, balance is the key debate and reasoning behind why it's not currently, or likely ever will be, a thing.
Could you clarify if you're talking about 1-player ships or 5/6-player ships?
Both. With 1, it might make things too easy or OP, whereas with 5-6 communication and coordination breaks down severely to a point of diminishing returns so that it's not really worth it; there's also the issue of manpower - more crew means faster loading and unloading of larger, and more profitable, loot hauls, for example - thus OP again.
@galactic-geek sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
Both. With 1, it might make things too easy or OP, whereas with 5-6 communication and coordination breaks down severely to a point of diminishing returns so that it's not really worth it; there's also the issue of manpower - more crew means faster loading and unloading of larger, and more profitable, loot hauls, for example - thus OP again.
I cant think of much that would be easier with just one player. As far as I am aware of, soloing isn’t considered OP right now. This means that if there is something OP about this 1-player-ship concept, I has to come from the specific design of the gunboat.
The gunboat has a forward-facing cannon which would be very useful for chases, but only if your enemy lets you get within range, does not turn to fight and refuses to board. It is easier to repair and bail then a sloop, but it is also more shallow and sinks faster.
For 5-6-player ships, I was only arguing the point that adding a 1-player-ship would not harm them. I did not intent to comment on whether they should be a thing or not, as this would be off-topic.
@klutchxking518 sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
@mferr11 I feel it is more of a 1 man ship, it's perfectly manageable alone, unlike undermanning a galleon or brig. The sloop works perfectly solo, and a duo only helps
Regardless of whether the Sloop is more of a 2-player or a 1-player ship, the fact remains that it is the only ship which has to cater to two different crew sizes.
4-player-crews have galleons, 3-player-crews have brigantines, but 1- and 2-player-crews both have to share the sloop. The sloop has to be balanced for two different crew sizes. There is a huge difference between having one or two players on board. It is impossible to achieve the perfect balance for both at the same time with just one ship.
But if a dedicated 1-player-ship was added, the sloop would not have to cater to solo-players anymore. The balancing of the sloop, like the speed of the capstan and sails, could be fine-tuned to 2-players to give everyone a more engaging experience.
@danielalex3266 said:
4-player-crews have galleons, 3-player-crews have brigantines, but 1- and 2-player-crews both have to share the sloop.
I think this is a misconception - A sloop can be sailed by 1-2 pirates, a brigantine with 1-3 pirates, and a galleon with 1-4 pirates. It's just that you have diminishing returns on each respective ship if you have less crew than the maximum allowed, though the ships are still mostly manageable at -1 crewmate (this helps facilitateboarding tactics). Go above that maximum, which requires more than 1 crew, and you start becoming OP and bumping into each other in narrow spaces.
Like many others before, I applaud the work of the author. This is a creative and well-thought out design. I will never be the one to discourage anyone from expressing their ideas and creativity.
Having said that...
This, like other solo designs, isn't practical for the actual game of Sea of Thieves. It would give too much power to solo sailors. The sloop is already easily managed by a single player. But it has specific and intentional weaknesses that are only filled by adding a second player. This is a very deliberate choice designed to encourage cooperative play. Sea of Thieve is a multiplayer game. It can be played and enjoyed solo, but it's always going to be better with friends.
For a solo ship to make sense, it would have to offer significant advantages over a sloop. But to be balanced, it would need to suffer serious disadvantages. Because of this, there's really no realistic way to balance a solo ship in the game. It's a fun idea, but at the end of the day it simply doesn't makes sense.
The elephant in the room is the front-facing cannon. Clearly this introduces major problems. It would be incredibly unbalancing in chase situations. A front-facing cannon could easily devastate a running ship with chainshot, fire, blunderbombs, cursed cannonballs, and of course easy boarding practically at will. It may have its weaknesses, but the strengths would be overpowering. Even if the gunboat would be significantly slower than other vessels (and it would have to be), it would still be overpowered once you came within range. And it would most benefit all the tactics defending players hate the most.
Imagine approaching an occupied fort. Presently, it's not possible to sail at a fort while firing your guns. A forward-firing cannon would allow you to absolutely pummel an enemy ship as you approach. Then you could fire yourself forward while your ship continues to close the distance, boarding the vessel and most likely scoring an easy victory.
No. I really appreciate the thought and creativity that went into this, but it's never going to be a practical idea for the Sea of Thieves. We simply don't need a new solo ship when we already have the almighty sloop.
I am impressed by the amount of work you put in to this idea. This is an excellent example to the concept that "presentation matters". The triangular sail shape give this ship a unique profile to make it visually distinct from the sloop at a distance.
@genuine-heather said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
The elephant in the room is the front-facing cannon. Clearly this introduces major problems. It would be incredibly unbalancing in chase situations. A front-facing cannon could easily devastate a running ship with chainshot, fire, blunderbombs, cursed cannonballs, and of course easy boarding practically at will. It may have its weaknesses, but the strengths would be overpowering. Even if the gunboat would be significantly slower than other vessels (and it would have to be), it would still be overpowered once you came within range. And it would most benefit all the tactics defending players hate the most.
Imagine approaching an occupied fort. Presently, it's not possible to sail at a fort while firing your guns. A forward-firing cannon would allow you to absolutely pummel an enemy ship as you approach. Then you could fire yourself forward while your ship continues to close the distance, boarding the vessel and most likely scoring an easy victory.
I agree with @genuine-heather here.
As an alternative, what about a single side-facing cannon? You would be able to shoot things from the port or starboard side, but not both (which side gets the cannon could be randomly decided when you load in, and/or changed by the shipwright).
That would address the concerns raised above, and present a novel weakness to this ship that could be exploited by others.
I can't believe some people thinking this idea would be in any way easier to manage solo than a sloop. You have to go to the front of the ship to use the cannon, I really cannot see a use for it, at least on the sloop you can circle of death. Everything, and I mean everything is within arms reach on the sloop right down to the map table being over the rail behind you, they have done a wonderful balancing job for solo players.
They must have discussed this topic over as many hours as most of us have played the game and I think they have hit the balance jackpot with the existing three ship types..
I went ahead and created a very rough concept for a sakman. This is a single outrigger boat with a crab claw sail and one side-facing cannon.
I will just say it outright at the beginning: This is neither a practical nor a good design. It has heaps of problems. But I find it very fascinating and had a lot of fun designing it. Its a fun little design that shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Sakmans are fascinating vessels, not only because of their sail, which might look like a lateen but works very differently.
A sakman is symmetrical front-to-back, but not side-to-side. The outrigger (the smaller hull, the left side) is always kept windward (side the wind comes from). To do this, they use a technique called shuntig to turn. The sail is moved from one end of the boat to the opposite to reverse the direction. The forward- and rearward-ends switch places.
My concept is also symmetrical front-to-back (at least for the essentials like cannon, steering, capstand, etc.) and would also be able to shunt. But it would not have to keep the outrigger windward. Shunting is mostly there to balance out the single cannon.
Shunting is basically a better anchor turn. Its faster, doesn’t require speed to work and won’t stop your ship. It also allows you to move the cannon from port- to starboard (and vice versa) by switching which side is port and which side is starboard.
Because of its many, many problems I don't intend to keep working on the sakman. Instead, I will try to design a more conventional hull with one side-facing cannon.
@drizkillz sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
Looking at the kraken example, how do you propose getting out of a grab with the cannon at the front?
The tentacle you have to shoot to free your ship would spawn somewhere in front, placing it withing your firing arc. You can move from front to back via the middle section which passes underneath the tentacle.
Here’s an alternative design: The Longboat. It’s a long and narrow boat with one side-facing cannon. It is the most conventional design so far. The shape of the hull is inspired by Eddy_Znarfys Dhow.
I didn’t call it “Gunboat” to avoid confusion. “Longboat” was the best fit I could think of.
Layout
The general layout is very similar to the Gunboat. The biggest differences are that it is longer and that the cannon sits directly in front of the steering wheel. Due to the cannon, I had to elongate the cabin.
The Longboat is less cramped and has a bit more space then the Gunboat. It’s still very small and narrow.
The Back-section has everything needed in battle: Cannon, Cannon Balls, Steering, Sails, Capstan and Ladders.
Without the cannon, the Front is left with nothing but the harpoons and bowsprit.
The Middle section houses the map table (which unlike the other ships is not perfectly centered), food and wood barrels, ammo box and weapons locker.
The Cabin is much longer then on the Gunboat and contains the least important objects, including the voyage table, pet cage and pointless brig.
Combat
The cannon can be rotated to face either side. It does not have a 360° firing arc though. At the side of the cannon, there are large wheels on a circular track. The handles on these wheels can be used to reorient the cannon. The tracks are sloped so that the canon snaps to the closest side once its released. Apart from this, the cannon works just like on any other ship. I believe that changing the side of the cannon is necessary to make the Longboat strong enough to compete with the larger ships.
The Longboats strengths are:
- Very compact Back-section
- Easy to repair and bail
- Highly manoeuvrable
- Small target from front and back
- Boarders have to expose themselves to reach the food barrel and ammo box.
Its weaknesses are:
- Shallow draft
- Big target from the side
- Cannon has to be rotated to face the other side
- There’s just one player on board
It is far more conventional then the Gunboat and less vulnerable to boarding. It can employ standard naval tactics like a death spiral.
Sails
The Sail is slightly larger then on a Gunboat. I have rendered the lateen-sails only, because those are my favourite. If you want to see how other sails would look, just tell me and I will render it.
On a side note, I am a bit disappointed that no one wanted to talk about sails so far.
Conclusion
And that concludes another 1-player-ship concept. As before, the Model and all renders can be found here: Link
This includes the Longboat, Sakman, Gunboat and an older version of the Gunboat. Within the .blend-file, use the scenes to navigate between the different versions.Personally, I prefer the Longboat over the Gunboat. But that could be just because I tend to like my most recent models the best.
Thank you for your time. I am looking forward to your feedback!
@galactic-geek said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
@genuine-heather No realistic way, huh?
Now we are talking...add a small simple sail and we have the perfect solo boat for the pirate adventurer!
Game needs a true solo ship for sure.
I think forward firing is a balance problem though, especially with an even more nimble ship. Far to easy to sit in blind spots.
A single canon can be done though, just give it full rotation through the normal arc with the forward direction firing obscured by the nose and trigger locked out.
So really it's identical to two canons, with a transition period which is pretty fair, it can move faster in that transition zone if necessary.Sticking with the square sails is probably best for ease of implementation and game mechanics. Maybe a little trapezoidal shape would be easy and distinct.
It's visual uniqueness could be in the hull, such as having no roof over the back deck.@matmoesa said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
why does a 1 man ship need a brig.
Same reason as the 2 man sloop which can't actually use it.
They might add bounty prisoner capture one day, and use it as part of Tall Tale story content.
@joelmuzz said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
A single canon can be done though, just give it full rotation through the normal arc with the forward direction firing obscured by the nose and trigger locked out.
So really it's identical to two canons, with a transition period which is pretty fair, it can move faster in that transition zone if necessary.Have you looked at the Longboat design? The cannon on it is very similar to what you proposed. The only difference is that to turn it, you would use a new interaction point at the side of the cannon.
Sticking with the square sails is probably best for ease of implementation and game mechanics. Maybe a little trapezoidal shape would be easy and distinct.
It's visual uniqueness could be in the hull, such as having no roof over the back deck.Yeah, game mechanics can be a big problem with fore-and-aft sails, especially with bermudas and gaffs. I think the lateen sails work quite well, but a simple trapezoidal sail would be the easiest solution.
They might add bounty prisoner capture one day, and use it as part of Tall Tale story content.
Good point. We don't know what features might come in the future. Best to be prepared for everything.
You've done some excellent work there. I love this idea and it could definitely work. Hope it reaches the developers. I personally don't find any use for the brig.. as you mention its pointless on the gunboat (much as well on the sloop) maybe there could be some empty space there for chests. Awesome idea however and appreciate all the work you did to present it. Hats off to you my friend.
Edit: I also like just as much the longboat design. Having more ships in the game is something I look forward to. Just different designs to choose from and from different nationalities would be great in my opinion... for ex. a Junk, if you like to role-play as an Asian pirate, or a Xebec for an Arabic-Mediterranean look.
@braien-jaemz said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
Now we are talking...add a small simple sail and we have the perfect solo boat for the pirate adventurer!
I think I will try to design something along those lines next.
It would need a few things a rowboat does not have.
First of all, a sail. This could be a square sail like in PotC.
it needs a map and voyage table. A barrel or box to store resources in, although it does not have to be seperated into food, wood and cannon balls. It needs an ammo box and probably a weapons locker.
You don't need a pet cage or brig. Cosmetics/equipment/pets/clothes chests can be found at outposts and are therefore not necessary. You don't need a water barrel too, because you can get water directly from the ocean.
One harpoon at the front should be enough. I will try to give it a cannon. A side-facing one, with a pulley to move it from one side to the other.How about keeping the oars? You could use them for precise maneuvering and for a little speed-boost when sailing.
I think simple is better here. No cannons, maybe just a harpoon at the front. This is meant to be a dinghy type sailboat only for solo adventuring. If a solo pirate wants to do a bit more or ship combat, they can use the sloop. A single mast with square sail, no crows nest. No anchor, should remain able to be beached. No wheel, just use oars to for steering.
No need for cannon, wood or even food barrels...just what you can carry. Ammo/weapons chests can be incorporated into the seats. As for map and voyage tables, maybe much smaller versions of each could be incorporated somehow.
@braien-jaemz said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
I think simple is better here. No cannons, maybe just a harpoon at the front. This is meant to be a dinghy type sailboat only for solo adventuring. If a solo pirate wants to do a bit more or ship combat, they can use the sloop. A single mast with square sail, no crows nest. No anchor, should remain able to be beached. No wheel, just use oars to for steering.
No need for cannon, wood or even food barrels...just what you can carry. Ammo/weapons chests can be incorporated into the seats. As for map and voyage tables, maybe much smaller versions of each could be incorporated somehow.
You are probably right with that.
I did try fitting everything I have mentioned on a dinghy, but it became incredibly crammed and would be very hard to move around in. And with one cannon to one side, it looked like it woud tip over at any moment. Not that you would get much use out of the cannon anyway - there is no way a dinghy could participate in combat. It would sink in moments, even if you don't fall off.
I think that a supply box like on a rowboat should be fine. If there wasn't one, everyone would just bring a storage crate.
Although a dinghy is far to small for a crows nest, there should be a ladder to get to the top of the mast. How else am I going to recreate Jack Sparrows introduction from the first PotC?
These are the remaining objects for the dinghy:
- Harpoon
- Supply Box
- Mast
- Ladder on mast
- Square sails
- Oars
- very small Voyage table
- very small Map
- Ammo box
- Weapons locker
- Flag Box (at the base of the mast)
@lem0n-curry sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
With so many things close together in a cramped place, interacting with one thing (e.g. cage) while you wanted to interact with another one (e.g. map table) might become a problem (another example would be the cannon ball and wood barrels).
I would see this as another argument in favor of the Longboat over the Gunboat. The Longboat is much less cramped.
There is only one potentially problematic spot on the Longboat that I can see. The wood barrel sits right between the food barrel and ammo box. But this could be easily fixed by moving the wood barrel to some other place. For example, there is an unused barrel in the cabin, sitting next to the water barrel.
I don't think that the cage sitting above the voyage table is a problem. It's the same on a sloop.
@danielalex3266 said in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
(...) I don't think that the cage sitting above the voyage table is a problem. It's the same on a sloop.
You're right - I mistook it for the map table. Found that one :).
I see the anchor has only one spoke. Does that mean that it can't be damaged or that when it is hit, you have to repair it before being able to repair it ?
@lem0n-curry sagte in 1-Player Ship Concept: The Gunboat:
I see the anchor has only one spoke. Does that mean that it can't be damaged or that when it is hit, you have to repair it before being able to repair it ?
The anchor can get hit and you can not raise it at all if it is damaged. You can't ignore some damage like on a sloop.
Although thats just how I imagine it. You could easily add a second spoke.
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