What may improve Sea of Thieves 1 - We don't actually need new content... we need a revamp to the content we already have.

  • Pellahh
    Lord
    Insider

    I've already made an introduction to this series of post here but never actually kept writing it, check that out if want.

    (Little disclaimer: as you can probably tell, english is not my first language, I'll try to explain myself the best I can, I really hope you can understand everything)

    So, we often hear about people complaining about the lack of content, expecially from people who have a LOT of hours played. I've also been that guy, so I tried to think of something that could get added to the game and actually got to a different conclusion: "we actually do have quite some content, so... what's the problem?

    Imo people don't ask for new content because the game actually doesn't have enough content, the real problem is people is getting bored of the content we already have, and so they crave for something new. Let's be honest here, Sea of Thieves works around a gameplay loop that is particulary repetitive, it can get boring after a decent amount of hours and if you quit the game you won't come back just for 1 update. There are games out ther that works around a gameplay loop that doesn't feel repetitive and boring, I think this is because most of the game mechanics in SoT are too simple and not interactive enough, also difficulty get often managed in a very lazy way.

    For example: Base skeletons! To fight one, or a small group, you literally need to group them and then spam left click using your Cutlass for about two combo (they cant even react cause they get staggered). Basically 0 risk, 0 interactivity, just pressing one button over and over withouth having the need to move.
    Athena Voyages are meant to be more difficult right? No. It just takes more time to do one and the skeletons have more HPs, you need like 9 cutlass attacks to kill a skeleton spawned during an Athena. This doesn't make the voyage more difficult, it's just more boring and frustrating to do the same thing over and over, it just takes more time. Even bosses, the fact that you can't easely stagger them makes them even less interactive and feel even more frustrating to fight. Shadow Skeleton probably are the best skeletons right now, you need to find a good position to use your lantern so you maximize the number of skeletons affected by the light, you can play a bit around them. Gold ones are the worst, feels like it just take more time to kill them, nothing more and nothign special. Plant ones doesn't even feel like a variation since most of the time you won't be fighting that close to water anyway.

    This game really needs a PvE revamp with a more deep PvE combat system. I understand that this game wants to be within everyone skill's reach, but I don't want it to became excessively hard, just a little more depth enough that there's more interaction between the player and the mobs.

    An example I thought of: skeletons eyes glows right before shooting, if you react fast enough you can parry-dodge with the cutlass and avoid the projectile. Right now skeletons missing shoots feels very random, having more control over it by using this mechanic that also involve a little bit of skill should make you feel rewarded on dodging it. I think it's always a better experience when you get rewarded for doing something right and punished for doing something bad. Sea of thieves doesn't really feel that way, Skeleton captains being unstaggerable and having unstoppable abilities makes you feel like being punished for no reason and doesn't reward you for anything. Most people prefer to aggro the captains to the shores and kill them with cannons, at this point it becomes a boring battle because you are shooting to an enemy that can't even react since you are out of range while shooting at him. Let's make captains more fun to fight, make it that you feel rewarded for fighting them with sword and guns, not punished. Here we need to work on more interactive abilities and work around the cutlass dodge (which has lot of potential that devs are not using at all in my opinion). An ability may be the captain throwing rocks or explosive at you and you need to get out of the AoE before it lands, or either you need to shoot a specific spot of the skeleton body while he's charging a powerfull ability in order to stop him. Those are really basic stuff, but still... SoT combat system is so simplyfied that it would benefit from this.

    More skeletons variants would be cool too, like Ashen Skeletons in the devils that are immune to geysers dmg and breath fire after charging the attack (the charge animation may be them drinking from a glowing bottle), the charge animation should give the time to position yourself out of the cone of fire, or either get behind the skeletons so you can hit it while he's breathing fire in the other direction.

    Also note that the game would really need some real new content in some areas, like unique voyages for pirate legends that are not actually one big reskin and that are actually harder and not just more time consuming.

    This is everything I had to say today, but I think there are other areas of the game that needs a revamp, here some of them: forts, devil's roar, randomencounters/kraken, PL voyages and hideout, Merchant Alliance voyages.
    But I don't want to say too much in one thread, let's just talk about Skeletons PvE for the moment :)

    (Haven't checked what I just wrote, I'll post it and check for typing errors and stuff).

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  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    Awesome post.

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  • Pellahh
    Lord
    Insider

    @targasbr Thank you ^^

  • Chronodusk
    Commander
    Insider

    @pellahh

    I agree with the sentiment being shared here that the PvE in Sea of Thieves is very simplistic, trite, too easy, and repetitive -- All the while, the best rewards are being spat out for every menial thing a player does now. There's no challenge in obtaining what was once rare, and therefore it isn't very invigorating or heart-pounding to have "rare" loot on your ship any more.

    I wish the PvE were better, because it all looks so cool and is very atmospheric for the Pirate feel, but functionally is very stale if you have been playing the game for a while. It is not helped by the fact that the monthly updates are providing... more voyages...

    I'll be honest, I can't even be bothered to do gift seeker voyages because there are no cosmetics to earn for them and it's just more of the same stuff I've been doing for close to two years now... Really, why should I care about them at all? It may be cool for someone who started playing two or three months ago, but to someone who has been playing since around launch it's just more of the same.

    The player encounters are the ingredient that makes the PvE worthwhile, but its a shame that we have seen no improvements to the longevity and replayability of the PvE content, and absolutely no PvE content to work on after Pirate Legend.

    (We do need new content and reworks to the existing content)

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    I disagree with some of those encounters being easy - having 5+ skeletons all with guns is a very scary thing to see regardless of skill level. So is having a cursed ship, kraken, and meg all convene on your location at the same time while soloing. This game can be easy a lot of the time, but some of the time, not quite so much - it can be unforgiving when it wants to be...

  • AmishhMann
    Rogue

    Well said, I myself feel like I am stuck waiting for more content to intrigue myself. It is nice to see people actually post new ideas instead of just complaining. I understand new content is tough because not everything released will intrigue every player, I myself find some updates pointless with how I enjoy the game. Some people enjoy certain aspects of the game that others may not. I wish their would be more focus on things to do as a pirate legend. I try to focus on various tasks so it does not get repetitive, yet I find myself getting bored a lot. There are only a few achievements I really care to pursue which involves sinking 500 skelly ships which as you pointed out, is very repetitive, the last thing I want to do is spend countless days just focusing on skelly ships. I think most would agree it is time for more new content for pirate legends as I have been playing since launch practically and very little at all has been focused on pirate legends.

    I know the game was due for more content to keep new players intrigued, yet I wish their was more focus on the loyal community that has been begging for more stuff to do. SOT had some awesome growth their for awhile, not sure if they are short on ideas or just don't have the man power to produce enough content in a more frequent manner.

  • Pellahh
    Lord
    Insider

    @galactic-geek That is not exactely what I meant, I think the combat is too much simple, not necessarily easy. Large groups of Skeletons can be handled by going behind a rock or at the entrance of the fort (if you are on a fort), they'll follow you to keep sight on you, if you do this correctly they'll regroup right in front of the fort entrance/the obstacle you choosed and then you are free too kill em with the cutlass. See, the problem with very simple enemies is that if you don't know how to face a certain situation it might seem impossible/frustrating, but once you discover how to deal with it it becomes easy and boring. I'm not saying that the game necessarily needs to be harder, I think the PvE combat system lack some depth and a real interaction between the player and the skeletons.

    Also, there are too many ways of "breaking" PvE by using strategies that reduces the risks to zero (like shooting skeleton captains with the cannon from the safety of your boat for example), and in my opinion that's not fault of the player who wants to use the most efficient tactic at the cost of getting bored, but of the developers not refining the system enough.

  • JofJJay
    Marauder

    @galactic-geek I mean while solo gun skeleton swarms are the only thing that is even a bit challenging, and you can easily overcome that if you use firebombs and you play smart. But with 4 guys you will manage to kill those skeletons very easily if you play smart. So they really aren't that challenging if you play as intended.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    "But once you discover how to deal with it, it becomes easy and boring" could literally be applied to anything.

    "If you play as intended" in a sandbox game? Really!?

    I know what you're saying of course, but man those lines made me chuckle.

  • Jusey1z
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    I think the best idea with skeletons is to make them all have the same health as the player or around it (50% to 150% range). However, make combat much more dangerous by increasing their damage, giving them more abilities, and improving their AI. As well as removing the stagger effect from them, or at least stagger a lot less.

    I really really hate fighting skeleton RNG "bosses" since it's just repetitive melee combos and nothing more... There is nothing special about them really except for their health pool.

    Now, quick note. There are some exceptions. I do believe that unique skeleton bosses (the ones you usually only see at Forts), should have a lot more health, just like with the meg and kraken, as they are all unique boss encounters essentially, unlike the more RNG skeleton captains and generals that you can hunt down.

    Otherwise, skeletons are just mostly a waste of time and boring to deal with. Actually, if you're not going to be doing something (like digging), just ignore them and run past them. No point in killing them if it does nothing but wastes your time.

  • SunBro95
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    We need capitancy update... And more end game content 😊

  • Pellahh
    Lord
    Insider

    @galactic-geek 1) It could not be applied to everything, it just applies to an aspect of a game with poor game desing. If you say so, you probably haven't tried games with more depth to their combat system. I've played over 100hrs on Dishonored 1, it has a 9 hours campaign. Never felt bored of doing it over and over since I like the gameplay so much, even if I knew how to beat every single level of the game. Also it doesn't apply to any PvP aspect of a game since fighting against another player is always about using new strategies and adapting to the enemy's playstyle.

    There are a LOT of games that even if you know how to beat a boss or a mob it still need you to focus on timing and reading attack animations so it doesn't feel boring. In SoT however, once you know how to beat something you just turn off your brain and do your thing. And tbh, I've discovered how to easely deal with every single mob in the game even before reaching rep lvl 30 in 3 factions. The gameplay we have now is not healthy at all! If you don't know how to beat something it is frustrating to fight it, you start to think of a strategy that makes sense but then you discovery that most strategy in this game are very reliant on abusing AI.

    1. You didn't understand the meaning of what the said. He didn't mean to say that you need to play how developers wants in a sandbox game, he meant that if you fight the mobs as intended they are not so challenging, which has nothing to with the fact that the game is a sandbox.
  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @pellahh I have over 800 games, and have been playing on various platforms for over 30+ years (with Dishonored among them - an admittedly great game, but 1 nonetheless that I only played twice despite that fact). If that doesn't make me an expert on video games, then I'm not quite sure what would.

    So, I assure you I understand perfectly even if it may not have appeared that way.

    I myself have used many of the strategies suggested in the past, and due to the sandbox nature of the game, have been experimenting with new or different ways to deal with various situations. Yes, skeletons are simple-minded, but that's because their mind is a bit, shall we say, lost.

    Every game is simple when you spend enough time with it to figure out its inner-workings and become an expert. A game like Dishonored, due to its story based nature, is very linear and often railroads the player along said straight path, and eventually ends when the player gets to the finish line. In a game like SoT, however, you can choose how to approach many situations, however you want - sure, some methods are better than others, but since when is that not the case in any game? The difference here is that numerous methods work instead of just 1 or a few. If I want to, I can corral them, cannon them from the safety of my ship, put them in a crossfire with allies using portable ammo crates, lure them into gunpowder barrel traps, even harpoon them to death if I really wanted to.

    Besides, they're not the real threat, and have never been, nor were meant to. Like fire, they're only the distraction - they distract you from the real threat: other pirates. Everything in this game is designed to take time, stall, or slow you down to provide opportunities for engaging with other pirates, for fortune or ill.

    You also seem to forget, as many gamers tend to do, that games are not about winning - they're about having fun! It doesn't matter in the end if you won or lost in the end; only that you had fun along the way.

    ...and that is at the core of SoT. Your fun is what you make of it, whether as a pirate, or something else entirely. Heck, we've even had a game show host upon the SoT! Can Dishonored say the same thing? I think probably not.

  • Pellahh
    Lord
    Insider

    @galactic-geek That ABSOLUTELY doesn't make you an expert. I listen to music every day, am I musician or a music expert? no. I see movies very often, does this make me a movie director or a Movie Reviewer? Do you think that just by watching movies I can learn photography, direction and writing withouth studying it? My grandma have been cooking for 80 years, would she be able to cook 3 star dishes? not even 1 star. At the end of my third League of Legends season (2 years ago, I quit the game last year) I had played around 1500 rankeds and reached Diamond 1, I had friends at that time that had played more games than me, for more years than me and still were Silver players (which is low elo), most of them are still silver today. Doing something for a lot of time doesn't make you better if you don't study it. I've been playing games for my entire life, but only 2-3 years ago I starded analyzing gameplay and game mechanics. There's a LOT of difference between a consumer who play games or watches a film and critic who reviews or analyzes it.

    The fact that you don't properly know the meaning of sandbox already tells somethign about the fact thatyou don't "study videogames". A sandbox is a game that has no goal, not a game that you can face as you want. Minecraft, for example, is a sandbox because you decide if you want just to build a house, build farms, PvE, try to beat the ender dragon, play multiplayers minigames; as in SoT you decide if you want to do PvE, voyages or PvP (even if SoT is actually not a "true" sandbox since a sandbox requires the game to let you interact and "alter" the world in ways that SoT do not offer, but we can still consider it a sandbox since the more important part is about "you decide your goal"). How to deal with the enemies in game tho, it's now about the game being a sandbox. In 90% of games you have more ways to approach enemies, this doesn't make most games "sandbox" because this has actually nothign to do with a game being sandbox or not. The fact is that there are numerous ways to deal with SoT mobs (like in other games) but there are also more effective ways to fight mobs and it's totally natural to sticking to the msot effective ways. The problem in SoT is that bot the non effective ways and effective ways are boring or frustrating because of the lack of interactivity.

    Never said there's just one method that works, I said that most of the effective methods are boring and more about breaking the AI.
    Cannoning? probably best strat. Shooting them with portable ammo crates? seems like a waste of time when you can shoot them with sniper from your ship while refilling your ammo from the ship's ammo box (also, you fighting on land makes you vulnerable to gettign damaged, cannon should make it faster anyways. But most importantly, does it make it more fun? No, still boring, they are not hard to hit since they don't move, shooting them with guns or cannon doesnt really chang the gameplay that much. Usin gunpowder barrels? Ok, I'd prefer to keep them for PvP but you can do it. does it make it more fun to regroup barrells and then make the explode on a NPC? NO! Harpooning them would take ages, would it be more fun? NO!!!

    You did not understand the point. I don't care if there are 3 or 30 ways of defeating skeletons, I don't care if it's easy (I even said that it is super okay for the game to be easy since it should be for eveyone, not just hardocore), I have fun with either hard and easy games. I care about having a combat system that is not so simple that it becomes boring. I didn't forgot games aren't about winning but about fun, never said the opposite, in fact this post is exactely about me not having fun with the PvE. That's not becouse I don't like SoT PvE's idea or PvE in general, but because I think SoT PvE suffer from bad game design.

    (Also notice that you said "is very linear and often railroads the player along said straight path" about Dishonored... an immersive sim which has been awarded of his impressive level design and for the many ways you can beat every level. You said you get railroaded in an immersive sim which a category of games that emphasizes player choice. lol

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @pellahh I beg to differ - I've been analyzing games and how their gameplay mechanics affects balance for years, and I take offense that you might say otherwise. The point I was making is that it still does have a beginning, middle, and an end - no matter what you do, the girl still gets kidnapped in the beginning, and you still get framed. Why? Because you're being railroaded to fit the narrative.

    Being bored isn't a game problem. It's a subjective YOU problem - what you find boring isn't necessarily boring for me.

    What I find ironic is that what you're essentially asking for in this thread is already happening. It may be slower than you expected or not how you anticipated it to go, but changes have been and are being made. If you don't like the direction that Rare decides to take, well again, that's a you problem.

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