@bugaboo-bill Using a controller on the PC, wouldn't that count as an opt-in?
make bunny hops exhausting
@Goedecke-Michel maybe, i even have two wireless 360ies for my Laptop, but i am bad as hell with a Controller and wouldnt want to use it for SoT, i use the controllers for the Isle of Man game only.
One could argue that bunny hopping feels very smooth for the person using it. If you use an exhaustion mechanic you suddenly make PvP a bit more clunky - it adds a second 'press button, no response' scenario in game (the sword dash/ missed sword slash). SoT is a game that is slightly ridiculous - the argument it looks silly doesn't make sense (the same could be said for pretty much everything in SoT).
@generalbuckfoi said in make bunny hops exhausting:
One could argue that bunny hopping feels very smooth for the person using it. If you use an exhaustion mechanic you suddenly make PvP a bit more clunky - it adds a second 'press button, no response' scenario in game (the sword dash/ missed sword slash). SoT is a game that is slightly ridiculous - the argument it looks silly doesn't make sense (the same could be said for pretty much everything in SoT).
This is true. How can we carry 10 cannonballs but only 5 bananas and 5 wood? I rather have an increased carry amount for food and wood than nerfing jumping.
Also how does carrying anything by hand slow us down so much while the skeletons can sprint?@goedecke-michel
I don't think using a controller on PC opts in. Plugging a controller in does not disable the keyboard and mouse. When playing on my pc with a controller, I can switch to keyboard and mouse without a delay.@d-jaguar But I can at xbox, too. Nevertheless, this is the bunny hopping thread. Back to the topic, please :)
@d-jaguar sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
@generalbuckfoi said in make bunny hops exhausting:
One could argue that bunny hopping feels very smooth for the person using it. If you use an exhaustion mechanic you suddenly make PvP a bit more clunky - it adds a second 'press button, no response' scenario in game (the sword dash/ missed sword slash). SoT is a game that is slightly ridiculous - the argument it looks silly doesn't make sense (the same could be said for pretty much everything in SoT).
This is true. How can we carry 10 cannonballs but only 5 bananas and 5 wood? I rather have an increased carry amount for food and wood than nerfing jumping.
Also how does carrying anything by hand slow us down so much while the skeletons can sprint?Well, the argument it is looking silly is one of more arguments. For my taste, it is overall silly and breaks immersion the moment it happens. But it must not be the same in your eyes. Especially with Eastern the next days, if you will learn to drop colored eggs, that would be kind of fine.
Still, the exhausting system is crippled and could / should be expanded.
Once again to my conception, because occasionally there is written about interruption etc: I picture it without interruption. Nothing is as annoying as not hitting with a sword's bow and therefore standing around panting, isn't it? My idea is, and my suggestion was, that the hoppers in series simply get smaller until they're nothing more than a little bigger step. But just no interruption of the movement, no breathing pause.
@goedecke-michel said in make bunny hops exhausting:
@barnabas-seadog
How does a pirate not realize how essential bunnyhopping is in this game?
Because it is not.
Until its lost.
@barnabas-seadog sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
@goedecke-michel said in make bunny hops exhausting:
@barnabas-seadog
How does a pirate not realize how essential bunnyhopping is in this game?
Because it is not.
Until its lost.
Alas, I'm quite afraid not. We have already been able to try out bigger, even more whimsical changes in the insider versions. It would be worth a try. I just hope it would be a useful variant to go in testing. If I imagine the topic would be tested with an unsuitable attempt, it would be irretrievably lost and over.
So to make some points on your arguments:
With respect to immersion, as others have said, you can carry 10 cannonballs. considering a 6.5in diameter cannonball weighs roughly 40lbs, that means you're pocking roughly a quarter of a ton of cannonballs in your...wherever you stored those. But yet, we can only carry 5 bananas? Basically, the point is that bunnyhopping is no less immersion-breaking than a dozen other mechanics that would never be adjusted because they were "immersion breaking". Can you imagine being balanced to hold only one cannonball for that purpose?
With respect to the logic of the exhaustion mechanic: a person can fall out of a 3 story high mast and take fall damage, but can be shot out of a cannon with virtually no repercussions. We can also be hit in the face by a flaming magma meteor from a volcano and survive, but hot water will boil us to death. This means that adjusting one mechanic because it exists elsewhere in the game clearly isn't something we would want to across the board. By that logic, magma fire should insta-kill you and your ship, and shooting yourself out of a cannon should be removed entirely. So again, adjusting one mechanic based on logic would set a precedent that couldn't be applied to the rest of the game.
With respect to it looking stupid: yeah, it does. So does a top-speed sprint with a pegleg and complex ship hull repairs with a hook hand.
Basically what I'm saying is that any reason for a nerf you could concoct would need to be something that could be validated in patch notes. And none of these things would fit that criteria. Besides, its clear that the topic is divisive, so reasonably, I wouldn't ever expect it to get changed in a meaningful way. No dev would implement a change like that and send half the community into a fit over something based in opinion.
That said, I still personally think there does need to be a way to counter the mechanic from a PvP perspective. I just don't think a nerf is the way to accomplish that.
@reveraster sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
So to make some points on your arguments:
With respect to immersion, as others have said, you can carry 10 cannonballs. considering a 6.5in diameter cannonball weighs roughly 40lbs, that means you're pocking roughly a quarter of a ton of cannonballs in your...wherever you stored those. But yet, we can only carry 5 bananas? Basically, the point is that bunnyhopping is no less immersion-breaking than a dozen other mechanics that would never be adjusted because they were "immersion breaking". Can you imagine being balanced to hold only one cannonball for that purpose?
You are welcome. Alas, my first answer is a No. No, I can't imagine beeing balanced to hold only one canonball (or not be able to swim with 10 canonballs, 10 planks, 5 bananas, 20 cursed balls in my pockets and a golden skull in my hands), but this is just wacky. We have swimming skulls made of gold, mermaids etc... imagine this! I know it is a pirate fantasy, I am not stupid. This is really not about realism. Nevertheless, most of those funny ideas just fit together and create a picture, like shooting yourself with a canon, eating a banana under water. But this does not include bunny hopping. Search from the eldest posting complaining about bunny hopping because it does not fit - they are over a year old. If you want to debate this point of view, then we discuss taste and emotion. Please be so kind to read the further section, where I will try to explain it a bit more, why I think it is not a matter of taste.
With respect to the logic of the exhaustion mechanic: a person can fall out of a 3 story high mast and take fall damage, but can be shot out of a cannon with virtually no repercussions. We can also be hit in the face by a flaming magma meteor from a volcano and survive, but hot water will boil us to death. This means that adjusting one mechanic because it exists elsewhere in the game clearly isn't something we would want to across the board. By that logic, magma fire should insta-kill you and your ship, and shooting yourself out of a cannon should be removed entirely. So again, adjusting one mechanic based on logic would set a precedent that couldn't be applied to the rest of the game.
Again, I agree with your initial description, but disagree with the derivation. The game takes the space for fantasy. It is not a simulation. That's not my goal either.
To stick with your examples: they work because they are all logical in comparition to each other. You can fall from a mast, you won't be shredded by a cannon shot, you won't be killed or burned by a volcano immediately, you can shoot yourself away with a cannon. All these things are working similarly everywhere in this game and are therefore coherent. As in Sesame Street: what do these things have in common? The damage done is not real, but the result of a fantasy, and all damage is managed in the same manner - pretty much less then in real world. But this is the main difference to exhausting: this damage system applies to all damage models of the game, so it is logical and coherent in between all events. Exactly that does not apply to the exhaustion model. It is sometimes there, more often not, therefore inconsistent and illogical, therefore immersion breaking .With respect to it looking stupid: yeah, it does. So does a top-speed sprint with a pegleg and complex ship hull repairs with a hook hand.
Basically what I'm saying is that any reason for a nerf you could concoct would need to be something that could be validated in patch notes. And none of these things would fit that criteria. Besides, its clear that the topic is divisive, so reasonably, I wouldn't ever expect it to get changed in a meaningful way. No dev would implement a change like that and send half the community into a fit over something based in opinion.
I am not sure about it. How you know it was half of the comunity, how you know no dev would implement a change like this... I don't understand this arguement, so this is your point. I say yes.
That said, I still personally think there does need to be a way to counter the mechanic from a PvP perspective. I just don't think a nerf is the way to accomplish that.
I don't even see this as a pvp subject, I beg your pardon. I never told anybody I see a need for a change because of pvp. If I did, it would have been accidently, answering to someone else. Who knows, but I think I did not. Can't you imagine this without PVP, just consider to have a model of exhausting that fit to each event, like the damage model does for each event? Now, if you like, go a step ahead. Think it without movement breaking moments. No forced stop for breathing, no standing passive for seconds. Not in a sword fight, not after jumping. Wouldn't this lead towards a more smooth fighting, from person to person? Wouldn't this lead to a logical system inside this fantasy driven events? Wouldn't you agree it would strengthen immersion a lot?
@reveraster loved your post, but the developers divided the community last year when they changed the barrels. I don't think they are afraid of dividing the community.
They have gone back on their own words such as every ship you will see will be a player.
If enough players ask, I think jumping may be nerfed.
I am not a bunny hopper except on islands as it helps get around obstacles, but there are some who learn to use it to their advantage. I rather not nerf a talent. Kudos to them for learning it. Like the more advanced sword techniques, they take practice and there are those who learn to use it. I am not able to do these things, so I have to learn ways to counter them.
I rather not nerf it as it creates a challenge for me to overcome.@goedecke-michel said in make bunny hops exhausting:
Once again to my conception, because occasionally there is written about interruption etc: I picture it without interruption. Nothing is as annoying as not hitting with a sword's bow and therefore standing around panting, isn't it? My idea is, and my suggestion was, that the hoppers in series simply get smaller until they're nothing more than a little bigger step. But just no interruption of the movement, no breathing pause.
I think if we were to have anything different, this is the best change there could be. It would cause hoppers to adapt a bit to manage their hopping. Would a slash without jumping reset the jumping height? I rather not have an exhaustion from jumping as pointed out many times before it is helpful when running on islands. It may not be faster but it lets us jump on to obstacles such as rocks easier when running from boom barrel skeletons.
I agree that consistency matters when it comes to mechanics; however, the point that you're trying to make (which is, from what I gather, that the mechanics I cited as examples all make sense to be fantastical because they are intentionally designed to feel like fantasy) could basically be applied to the mechanic you've been debating.
Furthermore, you've stated now that this isn't a PvP issue - and if it isn't a PvP issue to you then really, what's the harm? If you can live with seeing a person get flung out of a cannon, eat a banana mid-flight, land like a cat, whip out a sniper rifle from nowhere, shoot a person, watch them evaporate into green smoke, then stuff 400lbs of cannonballs into their pockets, fling themselves off of a mountain, get bitten by a shark, heal with the power of potassium, then get back on their ship, pick up a half-ton anchor in 10 seconds and sail off to fight a kraken, megalodon and a skeleton ship, then die from a reanimated skeleton, wind up on the ferry of the damned only to be reincarnated like a pirate-phoenix...
...is it really that big of a deal to watch someone hop 4 times in a row?
But aside from that, it's also worth noting that gameplay balance is important. Right now, the "exhaustion" mechanic on the charged swing exists because the charged swing is OP in two ways:
1.) It hits like a truck
2.) It can be used to fling yourself on to enemy ships like you sat down on a spring-loaded board.and because of these two things, having a pause makes sense from a gameplay perspective, for no other reason than because it provides the opportunity to opponents to get their bearing, especially when the dash moves fast enough (under many conditions) to lag and make the weilder effectively teleport.
Bunnyhopping doesn't suffer from these problems. It doesn't provide you with any kind of enhanced movement speed or damage, and has no point where the individual utilizing the jump can suddenly and violently overpower their opponent.
So should we remove the rest from a dash? No. Not without nerfing its superhuman flying ability first, and probably the strength or else it would be all anyone uses and regular swings would become obsolete.
So with that said, if we know that it isn't a PvP problem and from an immersion perspective it isn't out of place, is there really a reason to nerf it?
@d-jaguar That's a fair point.
I would like to believe that the developers didn't have a proper understanding beforehand of the level of problem it would cause, though. Granted, that may be wishful thinking, but when evaluating a change like nerfing jumps which (based on even just this post) is already well-documented to be polarizing, I would hope that the devs would simply stick to their course and develop the game as intended.
@reveraster He also doesn't have a problem with swimming and running without getting exhausted. He is dishonest in his argument, the only logical conclusion that he doesn't like it is for PVP reasons.
@reveraster sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
I agree that consistency matters when it comes to mechanics; however, the point that you're trying to make (which is, from what I gather, that the mechanics I cited as examples all make sense to be fantastical because they are intentionally designed to feel like fantasy) could basically be applied to the mechanic you've been debating.
I didn't quite mean that. I ask for your understanding if I do not hit the point. English is not my mother tongue, I try insufficiently, but to the best of my ability.
Yes, the cosistence of mechanics is important. In the damage model this is given, therefore it works and does not break the expectation: All events that are afflicted with damage are coherent. All events that are expected to cause damage according to this damage model are also associated with one. Therefore it is unimportant how unreal it is, as long as it is consistent.
With the exhaustion model this is not given at all. There is exhaustion, but in events one would rather not expect it. And it is always surprising where it does not exist. One notices, this was implemented in order to balance something completely different: the sword fight. So it's incomplete, inconsistent, it feels not OK, not normal, it feels broken, it is irritating every time. That is the reason why it interrupts the immersion again and again. Whenever I see them hopping, I think, "and how come I get tired from a single sword attack..." and it literally pushes me out of the game. Whenever I suffer a pause in a sword fight, I think " yep, but I can jump the whole day..." and I am pushed out of the game, too.
So, the point is, afaik, it seems to be but it is not a question of taste. There is more behind then meets the eye! The discrepancy of the mechanics itself causes it.I maintain that if there were a coherent exhaustion model, there would be no need for a forced pause in the sword fight and no inappropriate jumping. It could be just as coherent in itself as the damage model is, and just make you feel be part of a fantasy world, not a game.
@goedecke-michel said in make bunny hops exhausting:
Yes, the cosistence of mechanics is important. In the damage model this is given, therefore it works and does not break the expectation: All events that are afflicted with damage are coherent. All events that are expected to cause damage according to this damage model are also associated with one. Therefore it is unimportant how unreal it is, as long as it is consistent.
my point was that it is not at all consistent. You can be fired out of a cannon with absolutely no damage, but hot water kills you. Megalodons can bite you and you can survive, but god forbid a snake spits on you.
And with that being the case, why should we expect the exhaustion model to be consistent?
With the exhaustion model this is not given at all. There is exhaustion, but in events one would rather not expect it. And it is always surprising where it does not exist. One notices, this was implemented in order to balance something completely different: the sword fight. So it's incomplete, inconsistent, it feels not OK, not normal, it feels broken, it is irritating every time. That is the reason why it interrupts the immersion again and again. Whenever I see them hopping, I think, "and how come I get tired from a single sword attack..." and it literally pushes me out of the game. Whenever I suffer a pause in a sword fight, I think " yep, but I can jump the whole day..." and I am pushed out of the game, too.
I explained the gameplay reasons for it already.
I maintain that if there were a coherent exhaustion model, there would be no need for a forced pause in the sword fight and no inappropriate jumping.>
Already explained this as well.
It could be just as coherent in itself as the damage model is, and just make you feel be part of a fantasy world, not a game.>
Me: gets fired out of a cannon at a 100mph and lands with no damage, and manages to casually peel and eat a banana in transit for no reason
also me: steps off a rock and sprains my ankle
Yeah.
The exhaustion model is no less consistent than literally anything else in the game.
@reveraster don't forget
- We can swim underwater longer by simply eating the magic banana.
- We can run with 10 cannonballs but one skull makes us struggle to walk.
- We can leap while sword thrush as long as we blocked beforehand.
- We can sail faster against the wind by not adjusting sails.
@reveraster sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
@goedecke-michel said in make bunny hops exhausting:
Yes, the cosistence of mechanics is important. In the damage model this is given, therefore it works and does not break the expectation: All events that are afflicted with damage are coherent. All events that are expected to cause damage according to this damage model are also associated with one. Therefore it is unimportant how unreal it is, as long as it is consistent.
my point was that it is not at all consistent. You can be fired out of a cannon with absolutely no damage, but hot water kills you. Megalodons can bite you and you can survive, but god forbid a snake spits on you.
And with that being the case, why should we expect the exhaustion model to be consistent?
All right, we're gonna experience this differently.
For me it's consistent. There is virtually no event that kills you in one fell swoop. Usually you lose a part of your health. Extreme events surpass that, like a full bite of Megalodon or a hit from a giant rock. But also this fits, because they are comparatively big events.
Also the examples that you otherwise bring fit into the picture for me. Snake bites, see above rule. Transport via cannons: You take damage by the fall height, as if you would fall. I admit, at this point one could assume that the shot itself would cost some health. But at least that's not as obvious to me as the disproportion in exhaustion.
With the exhaustion model this is not given at all. There is exhaustion, but in events one would rather not expect it. And it is always surprising where it does not exist. One notices, this was implemented in order to balance something completely different: the sword fight. So it's incomplete, inconsistent, it feels not OK, not normal, it feels broken, it is irritating every time. That is the reason why it interrupts the immersion again and again. Whenever I see them hopping, I think, "and how come I get tired from a single sword attack..." and it literally pushes me out of the game. Whenever I suffer a pause in a sword fight, I think " yep, but I can jump the whole day..." and I am pushed out of the game, too.
I explained the gameplay reasons for it already.
I know the gameplay reasons. It's a patch for sword figt balance. The heck, it is an ugly patch, for my taste.
I maintain that if there were a coherent exhaustion model, there would be no need for a forced pause in the sword fight and no inappropriate jumping.>
Already explained this as well.
Me too.
It could be just as coherent in itself as the damage model is, and just make you feel be part of a fantasy world, not a game.>
Me: gets fired out of a cannon at a 100mph and lands with no damage, and manages to casually peel and eat a banana in transit for no reason
also me: steps off a rock and sprains my ankle
Yeah.
The exhaustion model is no less consistent than literally anything else in the game.
I don't experience it this way. We have to agree to disagree and not to be able to come together, here. Fare well, we will propably meet at the seas.
@d-jaguar sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
@reveraster don't forget
- We can swim underwater longer by simply eating the magic banana.
- We can run with 10 cannonballs but one skull makes us struggle to walk.
- We can leap while sword thrush as long as we blocked beforehand.
- We can sail faster against the wind by not adjusting sails.
If you think this breaks your immersion, speak your mind. Those physical rules are wacky, but acceptable.
-
Bananas cure damage? All right: a rule.
You take damage while diving, the bananas heal it also? Well, see upper rule: Bananas heal damage. It's surprising, but still fits the rule. When I first noticed it, I had to smile. It was so logical, I liked it. -
The speeds during the race,
well, they are also rather illogical, I see it that way. It's obviously due to the game: the player with the valuable good shouldn't get away so quickly. But that's not the end of the story - I imagine that I want to carefully transport the valuable good and not drop it. I can still accept this existing contradiction, without loosing immersion. -
The sword fight itself,
it's so illogical and broken that we don't have to go into it here. Yes, it is broken, afaik. -
Sailing against the wind
with sail position "Full fool" is a bug that has become a feature. I don't like it when the game mechanics give someone who knows about a bug an advantage over a player who decides according to the game logic. I think that's broken.
But in the end, what does that have to do with hopping? This discussion is like not curing mumps because there are also measles, rubella and flu?
You want to persuade me, because I don't notice the other crooked positions so badly, shouldn't the jumping do it either? Only, why? So that the game with all its illogicality remains unchanged? What is your goal? I am still in favour of evolutionary improvement. Running, swordplay, all that, yes, gladly. But that's not what this is about. It's about the weirdest thing of exhaustion, especially experiencing jumping.
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@grindtony45 As some people still say, bunny hopping was a feature of all games, dark souls is a good answer. And I agree for stamina had to be reworked in total, as like as sword combat.
@betsill said in make bunny hops exhausting:
@zormis There are way to many problems that exhausting jumps would cause. Would need to exhaust other things like running and sword hopping to make it consistent, would need to fix the games horrendous clipping and traversal, sword would need to remove it's CC, etc etc. In a game where you need to jump from ship to ship and over tons of obstacles this would be a very bad change that would make the game very annoying to play.
Very very very bad change ...bad bad bad
i agree the bunny hopping is lame. Id like to see something done about it. Its just goofy looking. It reminds me of playing Quake on PC years ago. As an xbox player, the bunny hopping was usually a dead giveaway the opponent was a PC player. It also reminds me of people who play Halo, another game I loathe. It is prevalent in that game as well. Just my two cents, but I wish it wasn't a thing in SoT.
@goedecke-michel said in make bunny hops exhausting:
@pomalotacusmk3 sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
@goedecke-michel
Although i like your idea, i dont want my jumps to be nerfed while im frantically running from 3 gunpowder skellys outside a pvp scenario.Ah, but this is a different thing to tweak. How can a bunch of rotten bones run such fast, especially with the weight of a keg to carry ... Besides, I think you are not faster by jumping, it is just your imagination.
They can run like the dickens because they're undead and never get tired.
@generalbuckfoi sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
One could argue that bunny hopping feels very smooth for the person using it. If you use an exhaustion mechanic you suddenly make PvP a bit more clunky - it adds a second 'press button, no response' scenario in game (the sword dash/ missed sword slash). SoT is a game that is slightly ridiculous - the argument it looks silly doesn't make sense (the same could be said for pretty much everything in SoT).
No, this should not be that way. I am already done with this combat time penalties. See here: https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/90068/sword-nerf-will-kill-arena-on-launch/2. And it does not look silly because of the wonky stile of Sea Of Thieves. It looks silly because it does noit match at all with time penalities in combat, f.e.. You feel tired because of a sword bow but not because of hopping ... no way.
@swimplatypus7 sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
@goedecke-michel said in make bunny hops exhausting:
@pomalotacusmk3 sagte in make bunny hops exhausting:
@goedecke-michel
Although i like your idea, i dont want my jumps to be nerfed while im frantically running from 3 gunpowder skellys outside a pvp scenario.Ah, but this is a different thing to tweak. How can a bunch of rotten bones run such fast, especially with the weight of a keg to carry ... Besides, I think you are not faster by jumping, it is just your imagination.
They can run like the dickens because they're undead and never get tired.
Yes, but they aim like gods without eyes and brain. 🤣
@generalbuckfoi It may and should continue to feel smooth, even smoother, than the fighting is at present. These forced pauses are terrible, they break every flow. An exhaustion that does not interrupt your subsequent actions but weakens them accordingly would be extremely smooth. That's how I would like it to be with swordplay.
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