Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews

Loot is just one of many treasures. Not all treasure is silver and gold mind you.

Time is also a valuable thing. Sinking ships without loot, that waste of time.
Or maybe they sink you because you have resources? When a ship sinks now any resources you had can be retrieved

Everything a ship has is value in a pirates eye.
So in a way, no such thing as “sunk for no reason”

Now these random attacks are pirates being pirates. Even Blackbeard was known for sinking ships just because. (Or they were in his path)
And with PS players joining. Everyone is just wanting to play, how they wish

It’s a pvpve game.

@d3adst1ck Define specific criteria? You are damaging another's ship or their character. Also, don't look at this suggestion as a penalty for fighting and more for fighting with nothing material to lose. Some might say not getting the loot from the other player(s) would possibly be the penalty for being sunk by the player(s) you were trying to attack and sink, but your are restocked with a ship and the means to attack so quick that this a minor inconvenience at best.

I understand what you are saying about what about the other player getting sunk and should they not being able to rejoin the fight quickly to recover their loot? I agree with you for that player, but what about the other one who started out risking nothing but the time to sail up and and start shooting?

@BurnBacon I would counter to say that the player with the treasure is risking much more and for no reward other then to keep what they already had where the other crew risks nothing. It is the time risk imbalance I am trying to have addressed in some way.

Also, Blackbeard risked real life and limb in these actions. That is reality this is a video game where even your ship is replaced from free.

There is no reason to punish people for attacking you just because they have no loot (assuming the game could even know for sure who the aggressor is), since as it stands this is a pirate game. The devs intended for players to be allowed to attack anyone for their loot regardless if they have any. Considering even you are allowed to attack others without loot onboard, it is fair since its not exclusive.

This is a pvpve pirate sandbox, meaning people should be allowed to play how ever they like. And pirates logically would not fight on an even playing field if they can avoid it. Pirates like to lie, cheat, steal and swindle! So it is by every means fair game if some one chooses to play a way that you your self can but choose not to.

Little edit, you also fail to consider how easy it is to get just a single piece of loot to bypass the "no loot onboard" system. Just vote a small treasure map and grab a chest, and you are free to pester people with so little loot that it wouldnt matter. As well wood and cannon crates count as treasure by the games standard, so having one of those bypasses it.

@d3adst1ck said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

@sairdontis4317 said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

@d3adst1ck Define specific criteria? You are damaging another's ship or their character.

That definition covers cases where you fire first as a defender. It doesn't work because it puts players trying to defend their loot or their ship at a disadvantage right off the hop.

You missed the part I believe in the OP that stated attacking without loot on their ship. The defender shooting first to defend their loot would obviously have loot on their ship. The defender's risk is obvious they have loot. The attacker risks nothing, but what they started out with on first spawn.

@d3adst1ck You and @GoldsMen seem to be assuming that the game doesn't have a tally of treasure on board both ships and the risk mechanics could not be adjusted to reflect the amounts? The point is: Is this game about fighting over treasure on both sides or not ? Presently quite frankly and obviously it is not.

@sairdontis4317 said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

@d3adst1ck You and @GoldsMen seem to be assuming that the game doesn't have a tally of treasure on board both ships and the risk mechanics could not be adjusted to reflect the amounts? The point is this game about fighting over treasure on both sides or not ? Presently quite frankly and obviously it is not.

The entire proposed idea is so convoluted and seems to just be planned out on the fly as issues with the idea arise. Either way, as a pirate sand box, it should not punish people for playing a way that everyone can choose to play.

If the other player sinks you, they earned the loot you may have had since pirates steal and kill. There is no logical reason to punish that other than trying to dissuade pvp since a lot of people are less likely to attack if they have nothing.

My entire bread and butter in this game is stacking massive hauls and fighting anyone who comes my way, and as i see it, if i sink, they earned my loot regardless if they had any, and if i win, my reward is that i keep my loot. If they have any loot of their own ship then that is only a bonus. The people who beat me in fair battle should not be punished only because they had nothing onboard and wanted to be pirates in a pirate game.

@capt-greldik "everything in this game screams fight over loot, and if you sink… you lost nothing but time, just like anyone else who sinks in this game, regardless of what they’re doing."

Like I said in the OP this is not always the case. Only one side is fighting over loot as the other sides hasn't even bothered to gather anything before the fight (on purpose most cases to mitigate risk) and there is downside to this again no risk. I know time is what at stake, but obviously one is risking more time than the other hence, simply there is an imbalance here that should be addressed. This is a numbers tally not a skill issue to balance out. That is something that Rare could mitigate. The system also knows the difference between low value and high value loot so that too could be tallied.

Also, let us not forget that there are kill on sight players (in the title btw) who don't even care about the loot and will let it sink to the bottom of the Sea so to those they risk absolutely nothing at all and will risk nothing at all the entire game. This is why you keep seeing threads about players not getting to enjoy pve content because to the KOS players the pve content need not exist at all. To the KOS player this game does not have a pve in the discription.

@sairdontis4317 said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

I am suggesting more risk be added to attacking other ships.

Ok, so I've abbreviated OPs' quote above, this is how I understand your idea.

Might be a hard thing to define, when you can sink a boat with just a bucket.
Any penalty based system penalizing aggressors is gonna catch a lot of SHOOT FIRST noobs. These people don't need help to suck.

@smuntface said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

@sairdontis4317 said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

I am suggesting more risk be added to attacking other ships.

Ok, so I've abbreviated OPs' quote above, this is how I understand your idea.

Might be a hard thing to define, when you can sink a boat with just a bucket.
Any penalty based system penalizing aggressors is gonna catch a lot of SHOOT FIRST noobs. These people don't need help to suck.

By abbreviating you have missed the point entirely. It has to do with the lack of risk to fighting with nothing to lose if you are sunk that wasn't simple given to you upon spawn while potently gaining hours of loot after playing only a few minutes . Yes, I know port often and I do, but that is not entirely the point is it ? I hear constantly how this is a pvpve or is it pvevp game (whatever), but to the KOS player simply leave off the "pve" part as it is meaningless to them as it carries no weight.

@capt-greldik "Everyone sinks in this game, everyone." And to some that sinking them cost them more time than it did to the others just spawned in to KOS.

Alright, I feel the need to define the type of KOS (Kill on Sight) player I am referring to as this is being glossed over (intentionally ?) . I am not referring to the player who is looting islands and killing players to add their haul to theirs to turn in to port. What I am referring to by KOS is the player who spawns in and immediately sets sail looking for ships to sink and pirates to shoot and after they sink other said ships they sail away looking for other ships to sink leaving the treasure behind. To this player(s) this is team death match that they could get on any other shooter game, but with the added benefit to some of no stakes. This player(s) are not playing a pvpve game .

@sairdontis4317 said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

By abbreviating you have missed the point entirely.

Nah. I understood you just fine.

I don't like penalty for "Kill on Sight" crews, instead incentive. Giving them a reason to hold something of value, is better than penalty. I posted a half baked idea about this a while ago;
https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/164597/suggestion-wearing-a-stolen-emissary-flag/1

@capt-greldik Ok, I wish Rare would let us run this experiment. Player sinks another player ship and doesn't loot anything. The player who sunk respawns with all the treasure and items that the other player did not loot on their new ship. Seeing how the KOS player didn't want the loot anyway no harm done, correct ? Here for the KOS player is maybe another idea all respawn ships fighting other respawn ships server (no pve gathering besides cannonballs, flags, food, and wood). How popular do you think that server would be, and why?

@Rotten-Rocko My "frustrations" (as you put it) are with the imbalance in risk not the pvp. I enjoy the pvp. I would find pve only with no risk to be boring as I see pvp with no risk equally boring.

As an attacker, there isn't a way to always clearly determine the amount of loot another boat has, so it would seem unjust to potentially punish someone if they attack an opponent who you thought was looted up and wasn't. And I think this is just assuming that the notion of simply attacking other pirates for the sake of it isn't a valid reason.

Also, really, it doesn't make a difference if someone takes your loot or not after defeat. They attacked you and you lost and it kind of just boils down to that. I never think when I get defeated "at least they stole all my stuff and made money off of it after they killed me". In fact, if they don't take your loot then you have a higher potential of retrieving that loot without conflict.

In that sense I feel like it is wise to just treat other players in this game like PvE enemies with really well coded AI. I mean, PvE enemies will attack you indiscriminately and they don't take your stuff if they sink/kill you.

The only thing I could think of that may work along these lines is making some kind of bounty system? I mean probably not, probably super hard to sort the logic out, but could be an incentive for other players to sink a player who has a high bounty. But I could also easily see it having the unintended consequence of being a beckon to other players to leave the server or could turn the server super sweaty...

More focus on treasure and exploration would also help it sounds like. Much of the issue could be players running out of things to purchase with gold to begin with or at least things they wish to spend gold on is lacking so in turn gold becomes less important to them ?

@sairdontis4317 said in Lack of risk for kill on sight no loot crews:

@capt-greldik "everything in this game screams fight over loot, and if you sink… you lost nothing but time, just like anyone else who sinks in this game, regardless of what they’re doing."

Like I said in the OP this is not always the case. Only one side is fighting over loot as the other sides hasn't even bothered to gather anything before the fight (on purpose most cases to mitigate risk) and there is downside to this again no risk. I know time is what at stake, but obviously one is risking more time than the other hence, simply there is an imbalance here that should be addressed. This is a numbers tally not a skill issue to balance out. That is something that Rare could mitigate. The system also knows the difference between low value and high value loot so that too could be tallied.

Also, let us not forget that there are kill on sight players (in the title btw) who don't even care about the loot and will let it sink to the bottom of the Sea so to those they risk absolutely nothing at all and will risk nothing at all the entire game. This is why you keep seeing threads about players not getting to enjoy pve content because to the KOS players the pve content need not exist at all. To the KOS player this game does not have a pve in the discription.

Ok so I put a piece of treasure on my ship and then attack you and sink you taking all of your loot. NOW according to you, YOU would not be able to come back and fight me for the loot you just lost as you now have NO loot to risk losing in such an occasion.

The best defense in this game is a strong offense. Also people USE YOUR MIC, many times a discussion can lead to interesting parlays and such. In the end all that is lost is time.

Lose the attachment to your ship and loot, you’ll be a lot happier.

@jon-sea-nah

Stating you got the point and then proceeds to explain how you really didn't.

"Lose the attachment to your ship and loot, you’ll be a lot happier."

The point is that the risk is imbalanced. It is not about attachment it is about risking something if defeated as opposed to risking nothing in the fight. It's called stakes. There is a reason someone just sails out with nothing so that they lose nothing in a fight. The game rewards this behavior by offering a chance of reward while risking nothing.

Happiness (emotion) here doesn't apply either, but I suspect you already know that.

What I mean by it is…… people take loot in this game and leave it on their ship for 12 hours STACKING the server, then get mad when someone comes along and steals it. The loot isn’t yours until it’s turned in….. simple and no amount of rebuffing or tweaking is going to change that. If I just sold a bunch of things and then charge you it may seem like I have nothing and have just loaded into the game to have free loot/easy fights. Grade 5 reaper requires you to stack loot up in order to reach grade 5 then it actively shows you the other emissaries. If you are watching the map and the horizon, you shouldn’t get run up on and lose it all. Also with any trading company other than reapers you can sell everything in sub 2 minutes and I mean EVERYTHING.

The game isn’t broken or unfair because people lack in game situational awareness. People aren’t wrong for trying to steal loot and more over they aren’t wrong for sinking you. No one in the game should be forced to play in a way that someone else chooses for you.

I absolutely get what you are saying, BUT you are asking for a handout for a fix instead of becoming a more aware and better rounded pirate. Sell more offer. Ya it’s not as satisfying not seeing 400 million pieces of loot on your ship, but losing 1-2 FOTD is better than losing 10.

@jon-sea-nah

"I absolutely get what you are saying, BUT you are asking for a handout for a fix instead of becoming a more aware and better rounded pirate. Sell more offer. Ya it’s not as satisfying not seeing 400 million pieces of loot on your ship, but losing 1-2 FOTD is better than losing 10."

Again, I am not trying to be rude or unkind here. You are missing the point of the gameplay mechanic of risk vs reward and how that is imbalanced currently in this game. The line above I have already addressed and parts of it surgically direct.

I can only gather from this is that risk free offensive play is a totally fine mechanic for you and apparently many and possibly 100% what Rare envisions as perfect gameplay, I simply see this as lacking and room for improvement.

(Also, small edit here) : Point of fact, I am asking for the "handout" to be removed in some way and for there to be risk involved in just launching yourself back into the fray like a guided missile against someone who has more likely already fought you off and won while risking 100% more in the fight than you ever have to this point. The "handout" is that you spawn and respawn supplies enough to engage/re-engage immediately on the offensive on a new ship.

You are asking for things but what you are asking is “Rare, please let me not be attacked until people go and do other things, buying me time to not be attacked and hopefully keep my stuff. Again should I have to keep the FOF on my ship to come fight you for your vault? Nope! Much like you can sell in between stacking things. A crew having loot on the ship doesn’t change much l. Oooooh now I’m risking a sea chest. I understand what you are asking for but it doesn’t make sense to force that action and how would the game track it? If I board your ship and throw the one piece of loot you have on it over does it prevent you from attacking me? Like it’s just not feasible. In the long run it doesn’t mean you get to keep your loot…. If the ship had 1 chest or 10,000 and you sink to it what did it matter?

It’s a soft form of gatekeeping to attempt to ensure your safety while hiding behind a rouse of Risk v Reward

The real Risk vs Reward is stacking loot. Do you risk going for more knowing that you could lose it all. That fresh spawned boat you are worried about…. If you have supps just chop them and beat them into the sea so bad they won’t want to come back. This is really your only option as it’s up to them on how they play.

Further down the rabbit hole; what if I just sold 12 FOTD and hop to a new server and see a reaper 5 with lots of loot go right by me because I don’t have anything to risk??? The grade 5 flag is almost 20-25k for a reaper so I am risking my ability to see other ships, something I had to level up, I lose money and supps, how much more “FaIr” do you need it?

@sairdontis4317 also some things to think about. I may not have 7 treasure chests to lose, but the 1000-2000 cannons, 40+ chains, curse balls, and cooked food/pineapples take more work to stock than a vault. Not everyone cares about loot in this game.

The other argument I see is the “I don’t have loot so don’t sink me” one. That grade 5 flag is worth about 2 Athena’s when a grade 5 reaper sells it, how is it you have nothing?

PVP is the BIGGEST risk you’ll run in this game and telling me that players shouldn’t be allowed to do that because someone else’s perception of risk doesn’t agree

I've tossed around this idea for a while and may consider turning this reply into a separate post after this to gauge more community feedback about it. Maybe it would help bring more attention to this, as well as the current disservice to PvE focused players in the new update, from the developers that monitor the feedback forums here.

I think we need to get some type of bounty system in place. Sinking other player ships or killing other pirates increases a crew's wanted level, and sinking the ship of a wanted crew comes with nice rewards- plentiful floating loot and a nice gold payout. The higher the bounty, the bigger the reward. Gaining a bounty also marks crews and their wanted level on the map to varying degrees, similar to things like PvE faction Emissary Flags, raising a Reaper's Flag, or picking up special treasure items that already have an inherent map marker on them.

What this will do is make attacking other players a much bigger risk/reward scenario, where it's no longer a no harm, no foul scenario for player griefers if they lose a ship battle to another crew. It also doesn't require handicapping players at spawn by reducing onboard resources when you login to the game (which was a huge problem that got a nice QoL fix in a previous update a while back). Instead, PvP hungry players fighting outside of hourglass mode now have to contend with other crews maybe wanting to hunt them down for the bounty rewards, effectively introducing a form of privateering/bounty hunting (which is something players across the board have been suggesting for a couple years now at least).

As far as the implementation goes, I can't imagine this system would be terribly hard to add to the game. It also could be a really nice addon for mid-season 12 refresh update, if not added as part of Season 13. Either way, it's sorely needed ASAP, especially with the new ship cannonball types added in Season 12 that could potentially make this game nearly unplayable for solo players in particular. It could simply be added as a new system that affects all players. No need to connect it to a specific faction or draw up any lore or explanation for it. Just a beautiful and relatively simple QoL fix that, if done correctly, would likely make the game much more playable for casual players, PvE focused players, and especially solo players. That also coincides with the influx of players we'll have with the game now expanded onto the Playstation 5 platform, and returning players brought back to the game by Seasons 12-14.
 
The idea is to discourage pure griefing in the open world, create a new layer of risk in stealing from other crews at islands or world events, encourage more cooperation and alliances among crews, and introduce a much-wanted new form of PvP that comes with very nice rewards, all at the same time.