The Loss Farming Fallacy

@dragotech123 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@nex-stargaze You see, that's what I've been trying to say. Yes, you should get rewarded by getting better. Being better does not mean only winning. A player losing in seconds after a stomp, can keep trying, and after some matches they can keep their ship afloat longer, and manage to land some shots, they are improving, but if they lose again then it still gives the same reward for losing.

Taking the same perspective I referenced earlier: You wanna know what these players legitimately will think?

They won't! They don't care about the allegiance rewards of a loss, because even if they lose, they only cared about the fight, whether it was fair or not, whether the game bugged so badly at the worst moments, etc. Like a failed server hop, they will just leave game and go to the next battle. These players that I'm supporting are very action-based, success mean nothing to them, failure only matters when they couldn't control how that failure occurred. They will moan and complain about things on their stream/Discord VC, but unless it completely destroys their spirit, they're just gonna keep on going. That kind of "don't care, whatever" attitude is what I find the best way to approach this game if you're trying to have fun.

That should explain why some will give you a hard time about it, because you're caring in areas you legitimately shouldn't. That is a ripe way to develop mental issues that no one should be getting from a video game like this.

@nex-stargaze a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

That should explain why some will give you a hard time about it, because you're caring in areas you legitimately shouldn't.

I understand why they care. They should care. Time is valuable.

Sorry for some but what follows what I said is "The fun comes when you don't care if you lose. There's too much of a difference between losing and winning in HG not to care"

@jolly-ol-yep said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

Sorry for some but what follows what I said is "The fun comes when you don't care if you lose. There's too much of a difference between losing and winning in HG not to care"

That's just it... There really are no major differences between winning and losing in HG.

• If you win in HG you get a streak increase, more Allegiance, and the enemy's supplies (and loot if you're in the mood to sell stuff that isn't flags).
• If you lose in HG you get sent to a new server, immediately spawn on an outpost, resupply (if you can, they do need to address the supply purchase cooldowns if you participate and lose in HG fights), and go try again, or do something else entirely to prevent frustration. (Notice the choice of wording here, that's what matters overall.)

@crowedhunter said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@knurd9369 I heard a suggestion for daily bounties a while back. I think that's the best solution bc you can participation-gate them.

As much as I want to support this idea, the flaw comes in the fact that I have little trust in Rare when it comes to suggestions that a community will consider necessary. Unless a large majority of the playerbase, which includes the non-vocal majority, raise their voices for this suggestion to even remotely be considered. Additionally, unfortunately, having the daily bounty system, which is meant to work out for any activity in the game, only have additional benefits for 1 activity in the game seems a little short-sighted in an otherwise beneficial approach.

Here we all go again. I’ve said this in the 18 other threads about this and my mind hasn’t changed. You can’t reward more allegiance to loss farmers and think that’ll they stop doing it. That’s like increasing unemployment in hopes that it’ll make people want to work more.

Loss farming exists, always will, saying it won’t with more allegiance earned is THE strawman argument.

Saying someone should have to earn the curse is NOT gatekeeping. How can I gatekeep that which I do not have?

I’m level 90 in guardians and only 30 in servant. I am not an ultra sweat, I am not looking super forward to the long slog to get the skeleton curse, but I’ll be in it soon. Not everyone needs more allegiance earned to feel validated. The mode isn’t leaving anytime soon and if you think rewarding more for losses keeps it alive any longer than some people getting a curse I’m gonna need some proof on that.

The curse is a grind, yes a very long grind for some. Don’t know what to say about this. Keep fighting keep improving. Don’t dumb down the mode because a few people are struggling. It’s a great mode and a great reward. If you aren’t up for it don’t do it. Plenty of PVP sweats don’t have the gold curse because they don’t see the grind as worth it.

This is still a short term fix to a “problem” that does not exist.

If allegiance is increased for losing, not winning but losing, then those that are loss farming will capitalize big time. Those that are just grinding will benefit as well…… some. You see so many people have already said they just want the curse and then they are done. So if Rare makes the curse available faster, presumably the mode does faster….

I don’t understand how everyone thinks that if every chest you dig up is an athena it wouldn’t cause people to stop doing veils or FOF’s “it’d make people more money and in turn happier” this is type 1 fun…. A rollercoaster
Type 2 fun like an experience…. Rock climbing involves more work, more investment and more risk but the memory stays with us longer. I wonder if Rare knew that by simply releasing 2 curses the community forums would turn into a giant “I want one too” argument. You can’t just keep increasing the rep until everyone is happy, not everyone will be happy, some will expect even more. And when the new rep is the new normal then they’ll expect EVEN MORE on community day/G&G Weekends. The thought that these curses are unobtainable by some is a false narrative. As many of you have said “Dedicated Loss Farmers already have it” so go loss farm it. This is obviously about a few people needing the curse soooo bad that everything goes out the window as long as they can get it. The mode is already “dead” in their eyes, so what happens when they get the curse and stop playing the mode too? I’m theory of rare wanted to save to mode the curse would take longer to keep the player base involved.

Guys it’s ok, it hasn’t even been a season yet, these curses are here to stay. I’m sure Rare has many plans to keep the mode engaging and fun as long as we don’t expect it to be now now now and actually grind through the grind they made. Some people were upset that you had to be level 75 reaper and 100 in servant! Uh ya…. Had to be a PL to get the ghost curse. Reaper faction is THE easier to max…. HANDS DOWN. Heck most reapers I find on the maps aren’t even pvp players they just know it’s super easy and super profitable. Play the game how you want, but don’t expect to be rewarded for not engaging in the mode as intended.

If it’s too hard or not fun then don’t do it? I have not done the pirates life tall tales, I have zero interest in them, the reward it has is nothing I’m interested in. This comes back to losing should not be the same as winning, it is a reward for obtaining the high level of proficiency in pvp battles. Loss farming exists always will no matter what no matter what anecdotal evidence you provide that says otherwise it just does. There are thousands and thousands of players on this game and I have met multiple people multiple times in organic servers that doesn’t mean that other players don’t exist. I don’t even care about the loss farming, I don’t, you do you. It’s the I want the curse to be easy for me to obtain even tho I am not good at the mode. Nope! Hard no, always no!

You claim you have already paid Rare so what does it matter if the “sale” is always on? Ok so since a person bought the game they should have every cosmetic, every ship set, and every curse immediately. You paid for it right? It is a game, games have achievements, some of these achievements are a flex, if you take the requirements away that made it difficult to obtain it is no longer a flex.
If everyone had a Bugatti it wouldn’t be a Bugatti would it.

This isn’t 3 years into a dead mode with no one having obtained the curse in years. People are getting the curse daily, it’s not the end of the season and we are declaring it broken and dead. It is not! I’m sorry it’s taking you longer than you would’ve liked, I am. It’s taking me longer than I thought it would as well. Not because it’s broken, I just may have overestimated my skill and underestimated the grind. Roger that, changed up the play style, adapted, and back in it. The meta has changed a couple of times already, I’m sure it will again, it’s how games work. Look at loadouts in FPS. Not everyone is a god tier player, I personally don’t think everyone should get the curse, can’t do it or don’t wanna stick the grind out then don’t do it. Does this mean you leave the game? I mean I guess if that’s how you view it then it shall be. Hate to see a player go, but if it’s the breaking point for you farewell.

The easiest way to be unhappy in life is to convince yourself you are unhappy.

Why do great pvp players get their efforts diluted because others aren’t as good. Sure this starts as a base curse thing, but how long until “Level 1000 is just too much work and I REALLY want the gold phantom curse” kicks in? This doesn’t stop it never will. Just grind it or don’t.

This is no longer about loss farming, DO IT! Don’t! I could care less. These all turn into (insert player name) wants the curse but doesn’t like how tough it is, give it to me for less work. How is the a healthy attitude towards anything in life? If it pains people that much then don’t get the curse. “It’s the most requested curse ever” good! Make people work for it! Again how far are you guys from getting it…… like truly. If you are actually grinding the curse you are off easily 30+ I know this because I haven’t played servant but a handful of times with some LFG people when I can’t find other people to do guardians with. Most people will have this curse before the end of the year. Is that a long time? For those few people, ya. But the vast majority you you and all other players grinding this out will be done long before then. Ya not as quick as some streamers that cut their teeth in arena, those dudes are a different breed, and why should they be the villain in this? Let’s revisit when there is a HUGE gap in those truly grinding the curse and that they can’t get, no matter what. Then I will talk about options. But until then GIVE LOSING MORE REP! Is not an argument or an answer. It’s a handful of people asking for this. The same handful making these posts and the same handful arguing for it in all of the posts. If it were truly that bad, EVERYONE would be calling it broken.

It’s a hard grind it is, I’m still doing it too! But it’s not unobtainable, it just isn’t.

Farmers should not be encouraged, they should be banned.

@ixxxoloff sort of agree but it’s gonna happen regardless, I’m just tired of hearing give me more rep for less skill/work

@d3adst1ck this is something I believe that could be addressed! Not a curse level reward, but definitely a few cosmetics or ship set type stuff along the way would probably ease some of this.

@lordqulex it is not too hard or too long. I’ll listen to this argument in 8 months when you are still below 20 in each level. It isn’t going how you want it to, that I’ll buy, but doesn’t make it a valid reason to revamp the mode.

I have a hard time believing that people that truly enjoy the game mode would be complaining about rep, because 99.9% of us aren’t. The ones I see complaining are the ones that simply want the curse.

If rare deleted the curses tomorrow and took away all the curses given out already would you seriously still do HG mode? The answer is a resounding no. So let’s be real clear this is about one thing and only ONE THING you want the curse. I don’t expect a lot of people to stick around after they get it. As mentioned above us rewarding it faster kills the mode faster. This isn’t about our time being valued, this isn’t about fair, fair doesn’t exist it just doesn’t. It’s about you not having what you want and expecting it to be easier because you don’t see it as fair. Curse or no curse I dive tomorrow. I miss arena, I love the pvp, I love learning, I love playing. Losing shouldn’t be more of a reward. People have the curse legit and some not legit. Get however you will, don’t care. But stop making these posts about how everyone will stick around if they get the curse faster, it’s simply untrue. Most people get it and dip, thats the reality. You dont create a larger player base by giving the reward most are just doing this for earlier. You don’t get someone to work until they are 65 by offering full retirement pay and benefits in 2 years. It is a game if you don’t find the grind or the reward to be worth your time don’t do it. No one is twisting anyones arm to play this mode. It’s not like you have to have it enabled to sail. It doesn’t force pvp ever in this game. You OPT IN TO IT. You knew the deal, you know the grind, do it or don’t. Again it’s the same 7 people maybe making these posts. There are much bigger things we could be fixing in this game. But it always comes back to the curse.

I honestly wish Rare wouldn’t have released the curses it has created such an entitlement argument among players and it turns pvp players into the villain for simply being a fringe player for years. Now they get a reward for being good at it but it’s an “unfair” reward simply because PVE players want it! No unacceptable man, it truly is. The mode is young you’ll get the curse. Breathe. It’s ok to struggle some it makes things worth the grind.

@lordqulex if Rare stated that you have ONE SEASON and ONE SEASON ONLY to get these, I’d be championing you point man I would, but these are here to stay. So making it easier devalues it. Everyone that wants to get the curse CAN and WILL get it. This in and of itself is not gatekeeping anyone. I’ll even have a discussion about this come august if you still don’t have either of the curses and you can prove you’ve been active in the mode and simply just SHUT DOWN. But you havent been. Most people learned early on, me included, simply destroying other crews in adventure mode doesn’t mean we were as good as we thought. My crew ROLLS through crews in adventure , not even fair, then we dove and Oh boy did I learn my place in the world. I’ve been the guy wanting to smash my controller because of other crews, but why? They are good, GREAT even, I learn what I can and move on. It’s easier when they toss up them GG’s but still. I can’t hate them for simply being better at a mode than me.

@lordqulex those willing to get it will. You’re right not everyone that WANTS it will. But I’m not for everyone getting it if they aren’t willing to play sorry not sorry. There is nothing, aside from freely handing the curse out as a participation trophy, that can be done for those players. To get PL you gotta go, grind and turn loot in. Simply setting sail won’t do it. This game, this mode, and these rewards are not for every single person, nor should they be. But ANYONE willing to put in the time can and will get the curse. How bad do you want it

I will say that this study is slightly skewed based on the fact that on community day, you gained boosted rep for fighting as well, and with how much rep you gain for winning without a boost, winning during community day would give MUCH more rep than normal.

I have had a slight thought however in favor of loss rep, if some one loses to a larger crew (including if a random crew comes to attack you), it could give a slight boost per additional person on the crew that sunk them, but against a same sized crew i would keep it as is.

Let’s get back on topic of the thread though. Loss farming.

It exists, has since the mode came out and sadly nothing will change it.

I have names, I’ve started to recognize ship names and even ship sets of these players.

The new tactic is even more trash. “Hey imma raise my sails and let you sink my ship, but invite me to your game so we both get the rep for the win” THAT right there Id support as a van able offense. I have come across this multiple times I have hate messages from these players as I simply won’t even discuss it. I just pop holes in them and camp the sink. You wanna raise your sails and not fight? Fine, you think I’m gonna support or give you more for it? Nah, thanks though. Again if it doesn’t happen how do I have names upon names of people doing it and messages from the people all sad in their hearts I wouldn’t just invite them so they could get it too. Rewarding any of this behavior makes it worse for everyone. I’m sorry that you think that is not happening, it is, you yourself have admitted to doing it quite commonly. Next argument please.

@goldsmen precisely ya the loss rep went up, but holy poopdeck so did the wins, like a level to a level and a half!

I’ve even voiced a smidge increase for a demast, certain number of hits, anchors, and kills but it’d have to be very small or you’ll see players parking next to each other farming this! I get it you “can’t stop people from doing this” but you can y’all just don’t wanna hear how

@lordqulex those games are not this, pvp is what those games are. People don’t play those games to get a curse and then never turn it back on again. If the curse is unlocked in a week I’m guessing 80%+ never dive again. So how does that “fix” the mode. Pvp is opt in, you don’t have to do it, you can play this game 100% of the time and NEVER fight another crew. So no don’t reward the people that don’t fight with the curse awarded to those that do. You can’t play COD and be a player that never fired a single shot. I mean I guess you could but that’s the game. So ya hand out rep, unlocks and stuff of that nature. This is an optional mode, don’t gotta do it, so no the reward shouldn’t be the same.

@lordqulex happens on the daily my friends on the daily. But this is what happens when rewards are given without earned. Easiest way to end it all, NO WIN= NO REP. That’s the sure fire way to end the discussions, the farming, all of it. Will it crush this mode? Probably, but I’m sure less that 20% will continue to play after the curse is obtained anyways. So really nothing changes. I’d still dive, I’ll still dive after the curse.

@lordqulex I’d rather not salt the earth but if the answer is give losses the same rep as win to appease people complaining that are just gonna leave the minute the get it or keep the reward a true flex then flex on homies. Leave loss rep as it sits and it’s fine but constantly hearing “but we need more rep” is not the answer either.

@lordqulex

I will say this, my crew and I have stopped playing as often as we used to. We just don't have as much time. We've gotten rusty and I would say our collective PvP ability lands somewhere above the average, but we're not cracked or anything. We are practicing to get better, but there's something demoralizing about being pitted against the most cracked crews in the player base that makes it hard to want to keep practicing. We don't lose-farm, but I can understand why some people would do that.

Sea of Bones lacks a proper skill-based matchmaking system! I appreciate Rare continuing to make changes to the system. I think their next focus should be figuring out how to make these battles feel more competitive and less lopsided. Lowering the skill gap in the mechanics is NOT the answer - putting players against other players similar to their skill level is.

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:
while I'm saying "reward losses better because the game mode is doomed so we may as well allow anyone who wants the curse a reasonable grind to achieve it."

You are advocating the literal the definition of gatekeeping while I'm advocating inclusivity to a popular and desirable cosmetic.

Gatekeeping:
"The activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something."

Not gatekeeping to say earn it. It is doable, it is not going anywhere, so go get it. If it were going away and I said oh well sucks to suck I guess, I gots mine though! Thats gayekeeping, But to just hand it out easily because it’s desired is not a fix it’s a cop out. It’s a reward not a participation trophy. It wasn’t meant to be an EASY grind, it wasn’t advertised as such either. So let the grind be what it is, a grind. If people quit along the way then they aren’t to be rewarded for it anyways.

What also sounds funny is the fact the you sound a lot further along in getting the curses than I am, yet I’m not advocating for a change, I don’t want more reward for losing. If anything increase winning rep. Then you’ll give people more of a reason to fight.

@chronodusk agreed it’s kinda frustrating to have some good fights and then roll into a BEATDOWN. I do think a few things can and should help this.

1 more time as to get a “ranking” even to figure win loss ratio.

2 cross stamp

3 this one’s not usually discussed or thought about. Loss farming messes this up. It artificially lowers the losers rank while artificially raising those they match against. If I run into 5 loss farmers in an evening, yes it does happen, then that’s 5 wins counted towards my “rank” I’ve gotten a champion class because of 5 back to back farmers. This makes me have to fight players potentially much better than me.

@kayati-heiva I’m not saying there aren’t some drawbacks I’m not saying it’s perfect. I don’t think more rep is the answer. Give some more perks along the way to 100 ok I’m good with that. More rep is gonna kill the mode faster. As for the hour plus battles….. I’ve had some of these due to a REALLY GOOD MATCH, but most I incur are due to one of the following.

Players shooting a couple of times with sails down too much and can’t get turned causing jousting matches

Players getting 1-3 holes especially some in the back of the ship and pulling off to reset instead of tanking the sloop and applying more pressure. I’d rather sink fast or win fast. If the match is over 30 minutes and not a great fight I’d rather lose and move on. The ships can take a lot more than most casual players give it credit for. Also if my mast falls I still get more pressure back on the cannons long before I even think about raising a mast. Not trying to preach how to fight but I’d rather win fast or lose fast those super long battles get super old.

Or some players just running in hopes of forcing a quit because of irritation.

Oooorrrrr that damned fog!!!