Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes..

  • KnifeLife
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    To continue a conversation that was started a couple of months ago on the forums, there has been a development in the whole "Morality" of Loot Boxes in games. Heres a quote from the article linked below:

    Landmark legislation from the Netherlands Gaming Authority is calling for changes to loot boxes in games, giving developers eight weeks to make alterations to the way in which their loot box systems work. Ten popular titles were featured in a recent study and four were found to be in violation of the 'Better Gaming Act', according to Dutch news site NOS.

    The study deemed that FIFA 18, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds, Rocket League, and Dota 2 contravened the act, stating that the acquisition of loot boxes required no skill and contained items that had a market value outside the confines of the game. Should the developers fail to take action and implement changes by 20th June, they'll potentially face a fine or the possibility of the game being prohibited in Holland.

    My personal views is power to them, the addictive nature of loot boxes need regulation, especially against vulnerable people.

    https://www.xboxachievements.com/news/news-29661-Dutch-Gambling-Legislation-Calls-For-Changes-to-Loot-Boxes.html

    UPDATE: Now Belgium has deemed loot boxes unlawful and is in talks to try and get them removed from the offending games. Here's the link to the story.

    https://www.xboxachievements.com/news/news-29702-Now-Belgium-Has-Deemed-Loot-Boxes-Unlawful.html

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  • AuGunslingin
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    @KnifeLife Are you Dutch? Otherwise, loot boxes will remain until the United States changes their rules and regulations. Xbox is America and our gaming population backs PlayStation through our fan base.

  • KnifeLife
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    @augunslingin Im from England, but the way I see it change always has to start somewhere. Thats one more then i thought would do it, so who knows what hw future holds. :)

  • ImphaseVenus

    I am Dutch, and this won’t go through ignore it and we will still have it in a few months

  • Hot Juicy Pie
    Founder

    My first reaction to reading this is "Is Holland even a major market?"

    And I mean that as inoffensive as possible. But I don't see a lot of developers takings this seriously, and might just laugh off the fine.

  • KattTruewalker
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    Deckhand

    @knifelife Interesting, it seems the games highlighted have til 20th June to comply or face enforcement action and it is particularly games where items can be traded outside the game for real world money.

    Shaun Williams  /  Apr 20, 2018

    Netherlands Moves Towards Outlawing Certain Loot boxes

    Netherlands Moves Towards Outlawing Certain Loot boxes

    The Netherlands Gaming Authority is getting serious about video game loot boxes. Any large game developer, who rely on their monetization, is living their worst nightmare. Companies like EA and Activision Blizzard.

  • ImphaseVenus

    @katttruewalker
    So games like TF2 and CSGO etc...?

  • KnifeLife
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    @imphasevenus The games specifically named where: "FIFA 18, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds, Rocket League, and Dota 2"

    There was more, however they have not been named.

  • KnifeLife
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    Belgium has now deemed loot boxes unlawful..

    https://www.xboxachievements.com/news/news-29702-Now-Belgium-Has-Deemed-Loot-Boxes-Unlawful.html

  • Gloog
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    These decisions will be taken to court I would assume.

  • KnifeLife
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    @gloog I assume so also, but any bad press against loot boxes which entice younger children into gambling addictions is good in my books. Its a dirty practice and should be stopped so the more people that are aware of it the better in my opinion. :)

  • Gloog
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    @knifelife whats the research say? Again, I'm guessing its not very extensive. Playing devils advocate, we know the connection to video games and violence is weak at best.

  • J Husky28
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    Government intervening where no one needs them and no one asked them. This is a not issue an issue for them to solve, you are not forced in anyway to purchase loot boxes, and in the Overwatch and Pubg, case even buying them, they can be earned. This a market problem and needs to be resolved by the consumers themselves, as in people stop buying the loot boxes or pushback against the companies decision to use them (Look at Battlefront 2 backlash). Legislation creates more problems than it solves here. If this truly is an issue, what's stopping them from banning card packs? It's the exact same thing and I'd argue even worse. Goodbye Pokémon, Baseball cards, Magic etc.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @j-husky28 a dit dans Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes.. :

    Government intervening where no one needs them and no one asked them. This is a none issue, you are not forced in anyway to purchase loot boxes, and in the Overwatch and Pubg, case even buying them, they can be earned. This "problem" can be stopped by the market, as in people just don't bother buying the loot boxes or attack the companies decision to do so themselves. Legislation creates more problems than it solves here. If this truly is an issue, what's stopping them from banning card packs? It's the exact same thing and I'd argue even worse. Goodbye Pokémon, Baseball cards, Magic etc.

    And why don't they ban casinos too ?

  • KnifeLife
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    @gloog The research? I cant cite a specific study, but ive read articles where developers basically hire in house psychologists to essentially help them develop there loot boxes ect in ways that when you open them they trigger specific reward endorphins in the brain which attribute to the brains reward factors and they make you feel good about it. So then you naturally want to open more to get thay release again.

    Ill try and find the articles for you later as im trying to type and get my butt kicked on Fortnite aha, but the biggest games that do it are mobiles, but you also have games like FIFA who are prime examples of it.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    Oh yeah, because casinos are profitable for them.

  • Gloog
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    @knifelife said in Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes..:

    @gloog The research? I cant cite a specific study, but ive read articles where developers basically hire in house psychologists to essentially help them develop there loot boxes ect in ways that when you open them they trigger specific reward endorphins in the brain which attribute to the brains reward factors and they make you feel good about it. So then you naturally want to open more to get thay release again.

    Ill try and find the articles for you later as im trying to type and get my butt kicked on Fortnite aha, but the biggest games that do it are mobiles, but you also have games like FIFA who are prime examples of it.

    There's a disgusting Activision patent related to this. I'm at work so I can't contribute but it's easy to find.

  • KnifeLife
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    @gloog I know the one you are on about, where it deliberately matchmakes you with better people with paid guns so you think that gun will give you an advantage and make you want to buy it. Theres alot more to it but i cant remember.

    Im sure theres research out there, ill try find some later. There has to be since the government's are getting involved, so im certain there will be reports and case studies..

  • KnifeLife
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    @aenima123 What do you mean? :)

  • J Husky28
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    @knifelife What if I want that rush of opening a card pack or getting a new skin in a game (cough SoT). Unless they are deliberately misleading you (rarity rates, pricing, etc.), there is no problem here. It's up to you to be responsible for your purchasing decisions (or parent for kids), not for you to be nannied and denied things are not inherently bad.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @knifelife a dit dans Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes.. :

    @gloog The research? I cant cite a specific study, but ive read articles where developers basically hire in house psychologists to essentially help them develop there loot boxes ect in ways that when you open them they trigger specific reward endorphins in the brain which attribute to the brains reward factors and they make you feel good about it. So then you naturally want to open more to get thay release again.

    Ill try and find the articles for you later as im trying to type and get my butt kicked on Fortnite aha, but the biggest games that do it are mobiles, but you also have games like FIFA who are prime examples of it.

    Thing is, every game release dopamine, if you feel pleasure and enjoyment when playing a game (when doing anything that brings you pleasure really) : That's because of dopamine.

    This is just a more effective way to release dopamine, like any game of chance, same concept.
    Making it illegal infantilizes people.
    Imo, they shouldn't make it illegal but if a game has it, it should automatically force the publisher to label the game for adults only.

  • KnifeLife
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    @j-husky28 I agree, but on games which are not age restricted younger people shouldn't be allowed to fall into that trap. Just like how children are not allowed in casinos.

    Trust me im completely against being nannied usually however i personally believe developers are taking liberties and abusing the positions they have to take advantage of vulnerable people.

    And i would also say there are many better things to get that endorphin release from rather then paying and gambling to get it. Surely it would be cheaper to. :)

  • KnifeLife
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    @aenima123 Thats the word i was looking for Dopamine, and i agree i dont think it should necissarily be illegal. But there should be some legislation on it so developers and companies cant take advantage off people.:)

  • FishSt1ck
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    @gloog said in Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes..:

    These decisions will be taken to court I would assume.

    This will only go to court if the game companies want to fight it. It was research done by the governmental gambling legislation, their only job is to check if things are against the law or not. They deemed that these games go against the Dutch (and Belgian) gambling laws. The base idea behind the claim is that the ingame items can be traded to others which gives them economical value.

    I think governmental interferance was unavoidable with EA being in the news so much about their lootboxes. Most companies tried to prevent this by applying changes already. Even Apple recently changed their policy in regards to ingame purchasable items with a chance attached, forcing each dev to present the user with the win chance.

    Will be interesting to see what the outcome will be, but I guess that if this is enforced it'll probably mean that the Dutch and Belgian users will be cut off from the stores until it's fixed in a different way.

  • Gloog
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    @fishst1ck they gon' fight, they gon' fight. Anything to prevent leakage into other EU members.
    I really don't have a clue lol. I did like your insight though.

  • FishSt1ck
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    @gloog said in Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes..:

    @fishst1ck they gon' fight, they gon' fight. Anything to prevent leakage into other EU members.
    I really don't have a clue lol. I did like your insight though.

    Still think it's weird this wasn't put on a EU commission instead, now each country is wasting their own time and money on it.

    I'm wondering though if the game companies can fight the claim that they offer gambling services because it's not them but 3rd party sources that allow people to get monetary gains from trading.

  • xCALYPT0x
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    Boatswain

    Correct me if I'm wrong but these laws only impact loot boxes and rewards which can be traded with real world currency and have no age restriction, right?

  • FishSt1ck
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    @xcalypt0x said in Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes..:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but these laws only impact loot boxes and rewards which can be traded with real world currency and have no age restriction, right?

    The article doesn't really state anything about age restrictions, just mentions that it's mostly young minds being manipulated into buying more. The biggest issue with the lootboxes is about rewards that can be traded for real world currency. Even though none of the games actually offer the exchange for real world currency themselves, there are external marketplaces that allow it. So the actual problem is the ability to trade lootbox items with others.

    The authority gave the companies 8 weeks to comply, not acting on the request would lead to possible fines and/or a countrywide sales ban for the game.

  • xCALYPT0x
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    @fishst1ck So I'm not familiar with Dutch laws but I know in the U.S. we have restrictions on underage gambling.

    If these laws are trying to keep underage gambling in line with existing gambling laws than that's one thing but if they are imposing laws on gaming companies to restrict gambling in general (on adults) then that seems stupid.

  • FishSt1ck
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    @xcalypt0x said in Dutch legislation calls for changes to Loot Boxes..:

    @fishst1ck So I'm not familiar with Dutch laws but I know in the U.S. we have restrictions on underage gambling.

    If these laws are trying to keep underage gambling in line with existing gambling laws than that's one thing but if they are imposing laws on gaming companies to restrict gambling in general (on adults) then that seems stupid.

    The laws here are quite strict about gambling, mostly because the law hasn't been altered much since the time before the internet. There's still only one chain of government owned physical casino's allowed and up until last year online gambling was fully prohibited on Dutch sites. As far as I know companies could now apply for a online gambling license but I've heard the taxes are quite rediculous.

    The reasoning behind these regulations are I think only to prevent companies without a permit to have online gambling. Probably because of losing tax money on it otherwise :)

  • TheBostonbean

    @knifelife

    But State run lotteries are okay.

  • KnifeLife
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    @thebostonbean I think you are missing the point mate..

  • TheBostonbean

    @knifelife

    "My personal views is power to them, the addictive nature of loot boxes need regulation, especially against vulnerable people."

    Who buys the most lottery tickets? Poor people. They seem vulnerable to me.

  • KnifeLife
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    @thebostonbean Lottery tickets are regulated under the gambling commsion and is illegal to be sold to minors, same with there scratchcards. They are not marketed towards children.

  • J Husky28
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    @thebostonbean so let's punish everyone else because a few make poor decisions for themselves

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