The fundamentally flawed Brig

  • haydensolo
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    DISCLAIMER These could all be considered balancing techniques to make a fair fight between the Brig and the Sloop.

    So I’ve been collecting data on both the brig and the Sloop and I will deposit it here, feel free to formulate your own opinion on this data, personally I think the brig is underpowered.

    Sloop

    -With one hole the Sloop sinks in 3 minutes and 10 seconds.
    -The Sloop’s anchor is raised in 8.5 seconds by one man.
    -On the Sloop, it takes .5 seconds to run from the wheel to the anchor.(There may be some discrepancy in this time, but not much)
    -On the Sloop, it takes 2 seconds to run from the wheel to the map table.
    -From the back of the Sloop’s tarp to the front of the ship where the post starts, it takes 3.2 seconds to run.(Possible big discrepancy)
    -The Sloop has a scuttle sink time of 14.28 seconds.
    -The Sloop has a maximum of 20 possible holes, 8 top, and 12 bottom.

    Brig

    -With one hole the Brig sinks in 3 minutes and 6 seconds.
    -The Brig’s anchor is raised in 19.20 seconds by one man.
    -On the Brig, it takes 2.5 seconds to run from the wheel to the anchor.(There may be some discrepancy in this time, but not much)
    -On the Brig, it takes 2.95 seconds to run from the wheel to the map table.
    -From the back of the Brig to the front of the ship where the post starts, it takes 3.5 seconds to run.
    -The Brig has a scuttle sink time of 11.88 seconds.
    -The Brig has a maximum of 16 holes.

    So what do you guys think, is the Brig overpowered or underpowered? I’d love to hear your opinion!

    These times were recorded frame-by-frame in Premiere Pro, for some reason I couldn’t upload the videos here, my computer just wont let me, so feel free to do your own tests and record it please!

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  • haydensolo
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Personally I don’t think that in any circumstance the Brig should sink relatively faster than the Sloop...

  • Captain Daedra
    Marauder

    @haydensolo From what I'm reading? Underpowered. Although I have enjoyed using it, I just think design-wise they could've done way better. Clearly that's just my opinion. And if these times are in fact accurate or at least close to, then I'm disappointed. Thank you for taking the time to calculate the data!

  • KrackenFood
    Marauder

    @haydensolo said in The fundamentally flawed Brig:

    -The Sloop has a maximum of 20 possible holes, 8 top, and 12 bottom.

    -The Brig has a maximum of 16 holes.

    This in my opinion is the Brig's biggest weakness. It has no upper deck. Any hole you put in the ship will take on water, so any hit on the ship is a good hit. The sloop you need to aim for the front, and the Galleon needs to be hit low. Anywhere you hit the brig, the hole will start sinking it.

    Personally I'd say the Brig is fine how it is. It's small for the crew it can hold, but is balanced by how easy it is to sink.

  • NoFears Fun
    Master
    Insider

    There are certainly some design flaws in the brig. It is a fun ship when you have the wind in the sails.

    To add to your list I would say that the sails themselves are too low to the deck, making it so you have to curl the sails for the captain to see in front of the ship.

    The lack of a real raised area or deck for the captain seems to be less attractive as well. Plus it even further limits the captains ability to see what is ahead of the ship.

    The layout of everything below deck seems like it was just thrown together without much thought. Why you have to go around the brig to get to the map is a big concern.

    Out of all of your points, the biggest issue I have is the time to sink. The brig seems to be much more fragile than the other three ships. The time it takes to raise the anchor is also a concern as it does seem slower even with three people, but we generally don't keep our anchor down so that is not as much of a concern. all of the other points are to be expected given the brig is a bigger ship.

    Overall though, I like the brig for two big reasons. Obviously the 3 crew is huge, but the biggest reason to love the ship is the speed. The ship gets up to speed much faster than either the sloop or galleon and is as fast if not faster than the galleon with full sails.

  • Nebenkuh

    Yeah it's way too squishy.
    The back and front of the Brig are a bit raised, so the holes there should be "partial" holes like those in the back of the Sloop, that only leak water occasionally.

  • haydensolo
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @nebenkuh Personally I just think the ship needs to have a taller hull and in the raised back have holes that don’t always fill up, it needs to basically just sink slower.

  • Guepard4
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Brig is indisputably OP

    -Faster than sloop
    -Same speed than a galleon with wind in favor, faster against the wind
    -Extreme acceleration (the biggest one)
    -Sink at same time than a sloop in similar situations
    -3 people, 2 cannons, etc.

    Stronger than sloop, faster than a galleon...

  • haydensolo
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @nebenkuh If not make the ship taller, maybe they could add a half deck on the bottom of the ship, this would be a much better placement for the ammo chest and equipments and it could probably make the ship sink slower.

  • KungFuStu72
    Master

    Some interesting data there but data alone doesn't tell the whole story.

    For example you've got the anchor raise time but you've measured it as a one man raise in both cases. That's fine for the sloop at it is designed to be sailed single handed. But the brig is designed to be sailed by a crew. So the anchor will almost always be raised by more than one person. But why am I concerned with the anchor raise time? I usually only every raise the anchor once per session to get going in the first place.

    You've also missed the most important statistics:
    How long does it take to climb to the crows nest?
    How much health does it cost when throwing myself from the crows nest to the deck?
    How many times do I need to jump from the crows nest to kill myself?

  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    @nebenkuh

    The back and front of the Brig are a bit raised, so the holes there should be "partial" holes like those in the back of the Sloop, that only leak water occasionally

    That's a good idea! Certainly at a slower rate, until the boat is lower in the water.

    @KungFuStu72

    But why am I concerned with the anchor raise time? I usually only every raise the anchor once per session to get going in the first place.

    Just wait until the drop-the-anchor cursed cannonball gets into the game!

    The OP forgot to mention that, in a sloop, the helmsman can far more easily peek at the map over the back rail of the p**p deck; whereas in a brigantine, he must run the length of the deck for a limited view through a trellis hatch cover.

    I do love when people apply research and science to their piracy!

  • Crazed Corsair
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I like the ship, and I think definitions of OP or UP are just stupid. A ship should have characteristics that make it a unique experience and not arbitrarily balanced.
    Personally I find the Galleon rather underpowered being capped at 4 players instead of 5, which would enable it to maneuver and fully man a gun battery like the other two ships can.

    All in all unlike the Galleon and Sloop(which isn't a sloop), the Brigantine is actually a true pirate ship, a raider. She's not built for protracted battles, but can get in, hit hard and get out fast.

  • Crazed Corsair
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @surveyorpete said in The fundamentally flawed Brig:

    @nebenkuh

    The back and front of the Brig are a bit raised, so the holes there should be "partial" holes like those in the back of the Sloop, that only leak water occasionally

    That's a good idea! Certainly at a slower rate, until the boat is lower in the water.

    Actually there is no such thing as partial holes, leakage is directly proportionate to how the holes sit in the water. Run any ship aground and full speed and you will see that no water leaks in until the ship is back in the water. Likewise the holes on the bow or stern on the Brigantine only dribbles a bit when the ship is rising and falling through the waves at high speed.

  • Omnipotence13
    Captain
    Insider

    What I like about the brigantines introduction is a unique style that comes with a ship somewhat different then the rest.

    I am reading negatives here about the brig that I not only disagree with but consider an advantage. Thats not meant to be negative at all

    I think the biggest weakness of the brig will be if you are weak in PvP (hand to hand not ship) combat. If the boarder entering your ship can defend those more urgent holes, you have a big problem. It also has one less body then a galleon to spare as a boarder.

    Having said this, it’s now my go to ship. I look forward to meeting each of you with your choice in battle at on the seas.

  • Mc rossco
    Marauder
    Insider

    The brig sinks way to fast.

  • King Brouille
    Captain
    Insider

    Brig is perfectly balanced please don't change a thing. Favorite ship by far. It may fill the fastest but it is the easiest to bail water out of which to me is where it is OP. Sloop makes you run down 2 half flights, galleon makes you run a relay, brig I can just chill on the stairs ( which is a hop over the wheel and has planks right at the base ) and bail water like a turbo powered suction machine.

  • ENF0RCER
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @haydensolo While i find your stats to be quite accurate the only argument/conclusion that can be assessed here is that the brig is far less mangeable for a solo player which its supposed to be. If it was a solo sloop vs solo brig the sloop is the clear victor as the brig is heaverly disadvantaged but it does maintain the abilty to simply run away. Which any captian worth his salt would do in that situation. The sloop was specially designed to be operated by a solo player while the brig was designed for a crew of 3. To make the argument of weather or not the brig is underpowered plz provide the following stats.

    Min/Max Sailing speed of the Sloop/Brig/Gally both in wind and agianst. As well as acceleration.

    Max turning speed for all 3 ships

    Max turn radius for all 3 ships
    Bucking times for each boat.

    Timing for everything you did for the sloop and the brig applied to the Gally and adjusted times for different crew sizes.

    All other nessary stats are well known so no need to include them. Thanks as i would much like to see the stats you can provide. Also please inform us on what role you consider the brig should play so we have a standered context to base this on.

  • haydensolo
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @enf0rcer Alright I’ll try and get some more data on the Brig, I imagine the turning time will be the hardest as I’ll have to find a basis on how long the ship is in meters. Or I could just give a bland one to see how long it turns.

  • RealStyli
    Vanguard
    Insider

    @crazed-corsair said in The fundamentally flawed Brig:

    @surveyorpete said in The fundamentally flawed Brig:

    @nebenkuh

    The back and front of the Brig are a bit raised, so the holes there should be "partial" holes like those in the back of the Sloop, that only leak water occasionally

    That's a good idea! Certainly at a slower rate, until the boat is lower in the water.

    Actually there is no such thing as partial holes, leakage is directly proportionate to how the holes sit in the water. Run any ship aground and full speed and you will see that no water leaks in until the ship is back in the water. Likewise the holes on the bow or stern on the Brigantine only dribbles a bit when the ship is rising and falling through the waves at high speed.

    This is basically what I was going to say... holes at the front and back of the Brig will fill the ship slower than those in the centre because of the curve of the ship.

    I noticed this a lot during the skeleton battles and focused mainly on patching the holes in the centre first before the ones at the back and front. It worked a treat and we managed to finish a battle with just a two man crew on the Brigantine.

    I will say though that the two holes at the rear left behind the voyage table are a pain to get at when you are in a hurry though.

    Also, because they fill slower at first and are obstructed by a lot of the internal stuff (brig hold, barrels) it can be very easy to overlook holes at the front of the ship if you're not vigilante.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @haydensolo Some good stats you have here. I would suggest adding some more like sail turn speed w/ 1 man and 2 man, sail raise speed w/ 1 man and 2 man, max speed with wind and against, acceleration, turn rate, number of rotations of the wheel to hit max turn rate, etc. Then do all of the calculations for the galleon as well so we can see how all 3 of them stack up.

  • Edemardil
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder
    1. It takes no time to run to the map table on the sloop because you can look behind the anchor at it. Also, learn the map and you won't need the map table.

    The brig is great, sucks going on it one man though. I think it's a great crew ship.

  • Porkns
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    I agree with you some respects. However I wouldn't suggest that one is inherently better than the other.

    It's very good in a ship v ship scenario however it is extremely fragile in regards to how quickly it takes on water. In the hands of an experienced and well organised crew it's a very powerful vessel but the same could be said for the Sloop.

    I like to refer to the Brig as a 'glass-hammer'. It's great if you know how to use it properly but will sink quickly if you sail it like a Galleon or Sloop.

  • KungFuStu72
    Master

    @king-brouille said in The fundamentally flawed Brig:

    Brig is perfectly balanced please don't change a thing. Favorite ship by far. It may fill the fastest but it is the easiest to bail water out of which to me is where it is OP. Sloop makes you run down 2 half flights, galleon makes you run a relay, brig I can just chill on the stairs ( which is a hop over the wheel and has planks right at the base ) and bail water like a turbo powered suction machine.

    I always bail the sloop water out of the window so it's only 1 half flight, no need to go all the way up to the open deck.

  • VolantAlpaca956

    Love the Brigantine. Joy to sail.

    If its not swapping the brig w/the map table, don't change a thing.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @haydensolo These are all balanced against superior speed, handling, and guns. A Brig can take a hit, have someone repairing while the other steer and fire. I think it's pretty well balanced - difficult for two, better with three.

  • dyfrin
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    Don't try to compare solo brig to solo sloop.
    Compare trio brig to solo sloop.

    The issues of map table not being closer, one person is not supposed to navigate and have the wheel.
    The issue of distance to anchor from wheel, again, you have 2 more pirates to do things.

    The issue of one level that always takes on water, that is one worth noting, to say it's a 2 man ship in battle because one is repair/bail isn't fair. But I feel it sinks at a reasonable speed comparatively.

    We still need a 2 man ship. (Even if some, albeit very admirable, people say the sloop is perfect for 2 people)

  • haydensolo
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Do you guys want me to get more data and make a more conclusive post?

  • Kapitan Klaps
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I'm more p****d off at the fact that brig doesn't have a bell anywhere else than crows nest.
    Bring is the best ship at the moment, followed by the sloop. Galleon is the worst in many ways and it should have more supply barrels than the brig.

  • Crazed Corsair
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @captain-surgee said in The fundamentally flawed Brig:

    I'm more p****d off at the fact that brig doesn't have a bell anywhere else than crows nest.
    Bring is the best ship at the moment, followed by the sloop. Galleon is the worst in many ways and it should have more supply barrels than the brig.

    Might want to keep up with the patch notes, they fixed that.

  • Sirboomsalot1

    As a solo player, there are two things I a man wondering about regarding the Brig or the sloop. 1. What is the draft of the Brig? One thing I love about the sloop is it can sail in very shallow waters. The Brig seems to have a similar draft, but I can't be sure. 2. Can I get the same menuverability out of the Brig as I can the sloop? I also love the sloops menuverability, and I wondered if I could do the same with the Brig. Raise the front sail? Raise the back halfway? I would have to do more testing to find the best way

  • I Am Iron Dann
    Marauder

    An advantage nobody seems to understand is the brig’s shape. The 1-deck design makes it harder to hit at range. While the galleon and sloop are easier to hit at range, the brig’s design is a pain until you get up close. The strategy if you don’t want to board is to sail circles around your foe and pepper them with shot. 1 gun clear the cannon deck while the other hits the good parts. Once the top deck is clear aim for the wheel and then the mast. The Sloop is the PVE Ship as it’s size and speed make it ideal for doing missions. The Brig is the expert’s ship as you NEED a competent crew to man her effectively and is good for PvP and PvE (the only con is an increase to travel time. The Galleon is good for PvP as it holds the most crew and is the hardest to sink due to the amount of damage it can take. It’s okay in PvE but makes voyages take FOREVER. Just my take!

  • Papy Pitch
    Commander
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    I smell a locked topic...

  • Tartansnake
    Commander
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    Founder
    Deckhand

    Dropping anchor as this topic has more barnacles than my castaway chest!

    Forum Rule:

    Bumping Threads
    Resurrecting threads over one month old is also not permitted.

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