Exploits vs cheats

I think the easiest way to describe the difference between exploits and cheats. Not every exploit is a cheat, but any that grants an advantage can be considered a cheat. But it should always be seen case by case.

In the case of quick swap i think the advantage was so minimal and as long as you wernt on a laggy system, it is so easy that it should not be bannable, but something like using an unknown spot to get into an area otherwise unaccusable for your advantage is absolutely a cheat.

Cheats are cheats and that’s understandable. To me though, exploits can be harmless AS LONG AS they don’t give you an advantage over others, it’s easily replicated, and it fits within the silliness of the game.

Thank you for the replies so far. While I can't promise I will be all that active in this topic, and I plan to refrain from sharing my own opinions on the subject, I appreciate the willingness to answer what each of you thinks about it. It's good to finally be able to get a feel for people's opinions on this. And in a very polite manner as well, which I also deeply appreciate.

Old gaming rule.

If your doing something that the game itself does not promote or want you to do. Its an exploit and shouldnt be done to begin with. You are free to continue, but your hurting yourself once it becomes abused and the Dev of said game sees it as breaking how the game should run.

Report exploits.

@crowedhunter
Technically yes, some of them do. I classify them differently simply due to the general attitude towards them and the difference in the way that proper cheats (stuff like teleporting, flying pirates, wall hacks, etc) make use of said openings.

Exploits are the result of dev errors in the game that allow you to do unintended things. In my perspective, I need to use them. Why? I understand that it's in many cases against the spirit of the game, but as a mostly PvP player, I would be at a big disadvantage if I decided not to x-bucket against x-bucketers. So, I focus on leveling the playing field and hoping the developers fix the playing field so everything becomes more balanced. Thankfully, the playing field has been improving for a while, and I don't use much exploits any more.

I view exploits as healthy vs. unhealthy. If it's healthy, keep it. If it's unhealthy, remove it. X shoveling was just QoL (healthy), x bucketing turned naval combat upside down (unhealthy). Both came from the same exploit, so they both were removed.
Sword lunge swimming makes the cutlass even better at the thing it's meant to be good at: mobility. I believe that's healthy (and pretty good QoL too).
I believe Rare has the same view on exploits, which is why I've agreed with about every exploit removal they've done.

My definition of cheats is the classic one. They result from game modifications or using game data that you shouldn't have access to. They take no skill in-game to pull off, and they are always a perversion of the game system. Cheaters should be IP banned.

There's no grey area with cheating, they are 100% against TOS and players using them should absolutely be banned. I also think Rare and Microsoft need to work on closing the loophole that allows multiple accounts to be made on the same purchase of the game.

When it comes to exploits, there are far more nuances involved, including how much of an advantage the player has gained and whether they have repeatedly used the exploit (as using it once or twice could come down to being accidental).

Quick swapping not only gives an advantage but also bypasses the intended function of the game. So that one was always high on the list of exploits to fix.

Sword lunging (and its stronger version) through water is a bit different, it's not really bypassing a function of the game, it's leaning into how the physics engine works - preservation of momentum. So I wouldn't say that's the same, for example. But it is still an exploit in a way and gives a movement advantage. Although Rare have openly embraced it, I wouldn't count on it never being patched out. If not, they should include a short tutorial on how to do it, so players don't have to learn about it from word of mouth.

Others, such as black screening, are a bit trickier. They can't be removed because the exploit is taking use of an intended function, where removal would be detrimental in a lot of ways. Still frowned upon and I think repeated exploitation should at least result in a yellowbeard.

@crowedhunter
No worries. I didn't take any offense and I didn't see it as you correcting me. At most it seemed like a difference of opinion. :)

From the sarcastic camp:

If it helps me it's an exploit, if it helps my opponent it's a cheat lol.

Of course, in a single player environment, if it's in the game it's just a different technique. The Konami Code ( ah yes, a cheat code!) VS a Game Genie.

Personally, I never believed Red Sea was an exploit. It was a weaponized environment feature. Animation canceling, when not checked by a dev, is similar.

It is a tool until it's defined as an exploit.

I've summarized it this way in the past:

For something to be an exploit it must 1) be non obvious to replicate and 2) must confer an advantage. Quick swapping is both of these as it is difficult to replicate the exact steps since players doing this method are inherently canceling animations, and of course this method confers an advantage. Cheating is a means of exploiting that takes these two criteria to the extreme.

Sword lunge in water, I would argue, was formalized as a feature because it is obvious how to replicate, even if it is something that often needs to be taught to new players who haven't seen it before. It also helps that it was an early discovered method that made the game more streamlined in general.

I would argue all exploits should always be removed, just like cheats. If the devs want something in the game they can make it obvious on how to do it, i.e. make it a feature. That doesn't mean easy by the way. This isn't about making the game easier. It is about making it the way it is intended to be, which admittedly is often easier than I'd like it to be. But for devs to properly balance combat it needs to be transparent how players are gaining advantage, so getting rid of exploits is in the best interest of everyone, so long as you care about fair deliberation about balance and not just benefitting your own playstyle.

@karkona
I know about most of these (pretty sure I remember seeing Quick Bucketing and Capstan loot stacking working about a year ago when I last played as well), but I am curious as to what Turkey walls and Dolphin Diving are. If you wouldn't mind explaining them (not really interested in HOW to do them, but more what they are).

@necronikolai13
Yeah, that's basically what I view as being the difference between them as well. Not so much about how they are viewed or whether they are right/wrong, but simply what the method for accessing them is.

@karkona
My gosh! That.. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, those sound pretty game breaking to me. It's no wonder that they removed that first one. Even if it's hard to do, having a shield like that against cannonballs really does kinda give an egregious level of advantage. Also, why am I not surprised that the second one was popularized by streamers? It really does seem like some of these habits start there..
But thanks for explaining. I admit, I'm hardly up to date on this kind of thing, having always been more of a causal player from day 1 than anything else.

@necronikolai13 said in Exploits vs cheats:

For me, exploit is anything in game that the developers didn't intend, ... ... or the Konami Code.

The Konami code is typically intentional. It has to be coded lol .

This is a good point! I know there's a lot of varaition inbetween moderators and employees at Rare when assessing reports.

My views on exploits are hypocritical, as are most peoples. I use some: quick swap, black screening, grabbing items to move places quickly (ladder on sloop). Others I know about, but don't use: PL hideout/Arena tavern glitch, the dolphin diving, etc.

I'm not sure how I draw the line in my head. Some exploits just give too much of an advantage, and feel like borderline cheats.

I know plenty of others who have similar views, with different specifics. I've heard many sword users who despise quick swap DG, but are fine with grabbing a cannon to cancel their sword lunge if they are going to miss the intended target. I think exploits are very much a personal thing with most people.

@karkona said in Exploits vs cheats:

@silverwing-525 turkey wall was using supply crates all along the edges of your sloop and they acted as a shield against enemy cannon balls. Dolphin Diving is/was something that allowed you to quickly glide through water (like a sword lunge but potentially 1000 times stronger) and could go great distances like 1 or 2+ map tiles. Certain Streamers would perform it in the past and if they did it enough, they would get banned especially using it to board enemy ships.

Players still use the turkey wall but it's purely to prevent the enemy harpooning you onto their boat.

Dolphin diving, there's a couple of different "dolphin dives" - one seems like a legitimate game mechanic where you sword lunge from a extreme height into the water then aim straight up quickly, you can actually deckshot yourself if done correctly. The other version (ladder launch) is most definitely an exploit and players have been banned for using it, and rightly so.

The only exploit i used religiously myself was animation cancelling while digging lol - shame they patched it (although clearly it was a counter-effect from patching quick-bucketing).

exploit are also a way to differentiate experienced players from beginner players. like in many games (lol, cs, cod, valorant and more others)