Introduce "Chasers"

@tybald The "chase game" is knowing which point of sail my ship is faster than yours and using islands/rocks to make sure you don't catch me. Your tools are the wind, the sails, and your harpoons.

If not cannons, what are you recommending to add to the current chase mechanics?

@lordqulex said in Introduce "Chasers":

@tybald The "chase game" is knowing which point of sail my ship is faster than yours and using islands/rocks to make sure you don't catch me. Your tools are the wind, the sails, and your harpoons.

If not cannons, what are you recommending to add to the current chase mechanics?

lol really?

Running until you hit the red sea, sinking and having the chaser get your loot is a good game design?

Stern chasers would really help with that dynamic.

@tybald said in Introduce "Chasers":

For SOT it doesn't need to be more cannons, but I think there needs to be some sort of "chase game" so to speak. With tools designed to try and slow a running or chasing ship.

No, what I'm saying is you deliberately said "it doesn't need to be cannons, but...there needs to be some sort of 'chase game'..."

I'm simply asking, if not cannons, what are you recommending?

@tybald The more I think about I really like this idea, this would really balance out the problem when smaller ships/crews need to flee but there is really no where to go and running away is unfun.

Unlike other solutions which are giveaways this would just give the fleeing ship a tool and add risk to the pursuer.

The cannons should not do as much damage as a main gun though. For example it should take more chain to drop a mast.

The gun would have to go on the railing, which was thing, and again that would mean it is a smaller gun.

I do not like bow chasers, that makes the problem worse, stern chasers only.

Another, less work intensive approach would be to allow the rowboat gun to swivel more.

No thanks, we don't need it

@Tybald @Foambreaker

I think we need to take a look at some of the recent changes that have been made and try to determine the kind of game Rare wants versus the kind of game Sea of Thieves is.

I was sailing with some OG pirates last night and we ended up talking about the beta, the shift in Rare's tone, and how that's effected the player base. Before emissaries, before you could only carry two weapons, before there was ammunition... Sea of Thieves was a game about digging up treasure and fighting others for the treasure they've got. PVP was a centerpiece in advertisements. It was known the game was a PVP centric MMO shared world pirate adventure game. Since then, the ads have gotten more PVE centric, and the vocabulary more gentle ("Welcome to our playground!"), with franchises and social media targeting a younger audience causing the average age of the player base to decrease, anecdotally and unsubstantiated. None of us blamed Rare for this, we really think it was a Microsoft diktat.

I feel as though the constant "us versus them," "PVE versus PVP" arguments we see on the forums are really "veterans trying to shift the game back to what is was and how it was meant to be played versus new/younger players just wanting a silly, casual, light hearted pirate adventure game and getting repeatedly ROFL stomped by sweaty crews is no fun." The recent red sea chance certainly got much of the point across: loot cannot be denied, it is what you are here fighting over. Certainly ticking the pendulum back to the original heart and soul of the game. I've said it before, but after watching the documentary I began to question my own preferred playstyle. The game was designed to follow a cycle—collect loot, fight others for loot, turn in loot. I understand that younger/newer players may not enjoy step two of the process, but it's what makes this game unique.

There are a plethora of pirate adventure games out there if you exclusively want PVE; Sea of Thieves is not one of them. Rare wants us to fight over treasure. That is evident with the red sea change, that is evident with the developers admitting the engine groups activities together to encourage player interaction, that is evident when they add new content whose aim is to cause player convergence. It seems to me that Rare doesn't want ships to escape PVP, they are actively encouraging ships to engage in PVP. I don't feel that stern chasers that can down sails or tar barrels that can slow ships down are what the developers want this game to be.

Edit: Please note, I'm not personally against these ideas. I've done my fair share of running (the OG pirates and I left a third of the treasure at a FOF because we notice the two sloops that had been harassing us were in an alliance now) and do believe pirates who prefer that playstyle could use some help. I simply don't believe "gloop" barrels or stern chases will close the skill gap; because that is the real problem—not that runners need help, it's that the skill gap between the stereotypical PVE'er and stereotypical PVP'er is so wide that unless there is a massive and drastic change running will simply never get away.

@lordqulex I don't get why a cannon where the only purpose would be to shoot other players brings up the PvE debate?

I thought this was about PvP balance?

@hiradc said in Introduce "Chasers":

There's harpoons

There is nothing pointing aft. But yes, this is why I don't think we need bow chasers.

@foambreaker said in Introduce "Chasers":

@lordqulex I don't get why a cannon where the only purpose would be to shoot other players brings up the PvE debate?

I thought this was about PvP balance?

Because in your example, the chaser cannons and gloop barrels would be used by runners to escape PVP:

@Foambreaker said:

I do not like bow chasers, that makes the problem worse, stern chasers only.

I understand there are legitimate reasons to run (I just want to turn in this Chest of Fortune, then I'll turn and fight), but I think we all know the bulk of users will be PVE'ers trying to escape PVP'ers. I believe this because PVP'ers, if for any reason they choose to run, are adept at boarding a chasing ship and anchoring them. Essentially OP is asking for additional ways to slow down pursuers. I simply posit they will mostly be used by PVE'ers.

@lordqulex So when runners fight back that is PvE?

oookkk....

@foambreaker Chasers that drop enemy sails and gloop barrels aren't fighting back, they're tools used to escape. It's the age old fight versus flight dynamic.

Running is running. Fighting is fighting. I understand the concept of tactical retreats, and living to fight another day, but let's be real here, these tools aren't designed to help experienced PVP'ers. We have other tools we're quite adept with.

I feel like the game by itself and without players having to do anything different should automatically recognize when a pursuit is in progress and reward the trailing vessel with a small max speed buff that stays in effect until the trailing vessel is side by side with the leading vessel basically intentionally facilitating a parallel broadside.

I just think that the game should truly embrace itself and what I mean by that is actually facilitate piracy in adventure mode.

One of the really annoying aspects about engaging in PvP in adventure mode is how easy it is to deny a fight.

It’s a harsh truth but it’s a real thing.

@foambreaker

The topic is essentially asking for more ways to escape from PVP. There are already a number of ways to do that: board your chaser and anchor them, sail past an island cannon and shoot chain shots, sail past a fortress and grab a keg, sail past birds and see if there's a keg... The idea of a stern chaser or gloop barrel benefit pirates attempting to escape PVP more than it benefits pirates seeking PVP. Sure, Sure, these could be used by pirates in an attempt to gain an advantage before turning and fighting, but these tools will most likely be used by pirates who shy away from PVP in an attempt to escape PVP; to pirates who enjoy PVP they're superfluous, redundant. Pirates who shy away from PVP and play the game for the PVE are generally referred to PVE'ers.

Am I overgeneralizing? Probably. Playing into stereotypes? Almost certainly. The intent of the topic is locked in the OP's head, but the impact is going to be giving PVE'ers more tools to help them escape PVP. And frankly, in my opinion, not very useful tools.

@lordqulex You have completely missed the point.

@tybald "...The problem is that it's not very fun. This is about making that chase more fun...."

This exactly, right now the chase is hopeless from the start, you will end up in the red sea and with the recent change the attacker gets your loot.

This gives smaller ships/smaller crews a fighting chance to keep their loot.

To me it is a PvP balance issue.

@jj-h816 said in Introduce "Chasers":

@giftstolarinna said in Introduce "Chasers":

I feel like the game by itself and without players having to do anything different should automatically recognize when a pursuit is in progress and reward the trailing vessel with a small max speed buff that stays in effect until the trailing vessel is side by side with the leading vessel basically intentionally facilitating a parallel broadside.

I just think that the game should truly embrace itself and what I mean by that is actually facilitate piracy in adventure mode.

One of the really annoying aspects about engaging in PvP in adventure mode is how easy it is to deny a fight.

It’s a harsh truth but it’s a real thing.

But that’d remove the skill of actually knowing how to sail the ship and use the game dynamics in the best manner possible.

The aspect of chasing a vessel that is faster or the same speed as your vessel is extremely boring and there’s nothing you can do other than continue to chase them until they mess up. The leading vessel can send nearly endless boarders with or without kegs or firebombs.

The world is large.

Both of these combined make it very possible to deny a fight for a long period of time which to me goes against the spirit of the game.

The devs have already added mechanics to the game to make it super fast to harpoon and sell treasure. So the threat of being ganked while selling at an outpost is almost zero for captains.

Now it’s time to make denying a fight, just running to run to waste the enemy’s time, more difficult to do.

I’ve suggested ways to buff naval combat.

Water in the hull slows ships down.

Cannonball splash damage below deck can do more damage to players based on player proximity to the point of impact.

And here I also suggest giving the trailing ship in a pursuit a small speed buff.

Imagine if the game facilitated naval battles.

We all sign up for PvP when we set sail. It sucks to sink and lose loot but it’s a part of the game.

I feel like long chases to no where do nothing but hurt the game and potentially cause players to stop playing because there’s no counter to just running.

It’s just not fun gameplay for either side to most people.

This suggestion directly ties into the idea of being more respectful of the time it takes to do things in SoT which is something the devs have been focusing on more and more.

@tybald "...Just as nobody is entitled to safety from others..."

This is why we need stern chasers, bigger ships and crews are not risking anything.

@tybald said in Introduce "Chasers":

@lordqulex

The reality is that a chase IS PvP. One player is trying to escape another player. It's not a direct combat, but it is a contest between players.

The problem is that it's not very fun. This is about making that chase more fun.

In addition, everyone finds themselves running at some point in time. Their supplies are low, they have their key piece of treasure that they want to sell, etc. Just as we have to remind the "pve server" people that it's not "pvp vs pve" and people do everything, you have to remember that running is a tactic used in particular circumstances. I just want stuff to make it more interesting, and/or tools that if used effectively, can actually bring a chase to an end.

Good point, I'm shifting my mindset to that of chases being PVP. The challenge you're proposing is, in our tools not rules paradigm, the pursued and the pursuer have limited tools in a chase PVP encounter. Yes, hunters have harpoons, yes the targets can sail by islands for cannons and kegs, but ultimately the "boring" part is that the chase never ends because there is no way for the target to "win" (i.e. get away and sell their loot) but many ways for them to lose (red sea and sink).

I guess from my perspective the only chases I get bored of are the "we're in the shores of plenty chasing a sloop eastward into the wind" kind. The any time the ships are relatively nearby is fun for me, chasing or being chased. If a sloop turns into the wind with a lot of map ahead of them, and they're not a grade 4/5 emissary, I stop chasing them. That's not what I'm here for, I agree that's boring as heck. Alternatively, if I am that sloop and they continue to chase me, there is no reliable way to get them to stop. Yes, I can break line of sight around rocks or an island, or the storm, or a fortunate fog bank, but ultimately there is no way for the target to "win" that encounter and break the chase.

The challenge is that dropping a sail or a few holes in the bow won't slow an experienced crew down, so a stern chaser is not incredibly useful in my opinion. The best way to get a ship to stop chasing you is to jump off your boat with a keg at a bottleneck, drop the keg behind you, grab the ladder, board when it blows and drop their anchor. That's usually enough of a distraction to let your ship sail off far enough away to get them to not be able to find it after they've dealt with you (or sunk).

What we really need is a smoke barrel. Something I can use at a sufficiently large island so you don't see my ship or where it's going, and so when the smoke finally clears I'm not in your line of sight and you're searching for me. Gloop barrels could be fun but ultimately just as unreliable as gunpowder kegs.

@jj-h816

Well I would imagine the mechanic would only kick in if a fleeing vessel was sailing in nearly a straight line for some set amount of minimum time and if the pursuing vessel was within a certain maximum distance to the fleeing vessel.

I do not find any fault with players who choose to run away from a fight for any reason.

My issue is the lack of a game mechanic to counter running away for long periods of time over great distances.

With how fast it is to sell treasure now there’s no reason to enable crews to run away from a fight with no viable counter to catch up to them until they run out of map.

With the Red Sea loot denial strat removed from the game there is no reason not to nerf running by at least rebalancing the different ship speeds and possibly adding a mechanic to make chases much, much more exciting and exhilarating rather than sailing across the map just guarding your ladder for 20+ minutes as a pursuer.

#itsokaytosink
#embracePvP

@eldritchbear said in Introduce "Chasers":

Saw the title and thought you meant like a whiskey chaser or something.

Left disappointed.

Whiskey? Landlubber drink!

It's RUM and GROG.