Systemic issues with PVP v PVE design

  • Now look, I'll caveat that I haven't played this game in at least a year. I've just got off of a night of 3 different servers, back to back, each day out of 3 days in a row, of people coming after me and my friends relentlessly, without any treasure on our ship. We are a little rusty, it's true, but we LITERALLY cannot engage in the PVE side of this game, whatsoever, without someone coming after us every 5 minutes. I'm trying to get someone new to play the game, no less.

    "But it's a PIRATE GAME, BRO, WHY DON'T YOU GET GUD?" This is besides the point. I am a game designer/programmer by trade, myself, so I feel like I can spot a systemic design issue when I see one and, while I don't have the stats in front of me for how many people engaged in the Arena side of this game while it existed, it sure does seem like, since Arena shut down, there's way more pvp-focused players bearing down on pve players than I remember. My crew cannot complete a single voyage without being interrupted by pvp. It used to be that we'd have good days and bad days, but now it's just every single server, all the time. There's no such thing as a good day anymore. There's no reason to get into this game if you don't want to play the ghost of Arena. I feel that, in the absence of Arena, some kind of system needs to be put in to draw pvp players, or even maybe some kind of ranking system, in order to allow people to, y'know, play the game, at all. As it stands, we cannot leave our starting island with a rank 1 emissary of any type without being ganked instantly. The game is not fun anymore. It's not a pvevp game anymore. It's just deathmatch.

    There's no longer any interesting question as to whether another ship will come to try to murder you; it's just a matter of fact at every second. People don't even engage their brain cells to think "Oh, maybe if we let them get to emissary level 4/5, they'll have the loot to make it worth it for us to engage." They just kill anything that moves, and use the tall tales to migrate servers until they find one that suits their fancy.

    Whoever comes in replying with something like the aforementioned comment content, you will be ignored. This is patently absurd. Some kind of design element needs to be added/changed. My friend can't even get into this game , and I don't believe in the idea that a game requires viewing a couple of wiki articles or several dozen youtube videos to be able to play the game, period.

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  • There's no such thing as a good day anymore.

    There can be.

    You're frustrated, you're fed up, it happens. It's alright to get tired of something and to move on from something.

    It's difficult to find positive experiences when the negative ones consume a person's energy.

    Randomness creates a lot of variety and no guarantees. You will find positive sessions sometimes if you resolve the resentment.

    A positive approach eventually finds positive experiences, a negative approach will only find negative experiences.

    Plenty of room for you and your friends. It may take adjusting and adapting but it's not all going to be negative with some effort and a perspective that allows you to stay focused on your goals in a positive way.

  • @bennick323 unfortunately they are going to stick with the game as PvPvE and not have just PvP or PvE. They talk about adding custom servers but I believe that is only really for streamers that want to make custom content. Not that I think its bad I just really do not think that it will attract others due to game progression that will be halted in that mode. It may be popular at the start but I believe it will dwindle down to that low % of players using it.

  • They don't need to separate servers, have safe modes, or any of that type of stuff. Rare and Microsoft need to have a "Pirate's Life" sized update in terms of server stability and hit-reg elimination.

    Just last night I had a duo crew best me after one got onboard and killed me due to hit reg (sniped him on the ladder, managed to hit a sword swing, should be 100 damage right?!, nope, sniper hit didn't count)

    After a long black screen respawn (not a fault on my end, game is installed on an m.2 drive, I have an i7 6 series processor and plenty of DDR4 ram, most respawns take ~1.2 seconds historically) and at the end of it hearing my mast fall to deal with besides the anchor being down, I respawn and kill the enemy who boarded but it was too late at that point.

    After some back and forth messages post-fight, I was told to fight more and I would "get better." Sadly it is in Rare and Microsoft's court for me to get any better in those situations really.

    Bottom line, the reason some don't fight a larger crew is indeed them knowing their skill is far too low to even hope for a decent fight. The reason the rest choose to run and sell is due to a massive amount of server issues (hit reg/backtrack, rubber banding (I have gigabit fiber and a hard wired cat6 network for crying out loud and am still usually 60 ping spiking to 270+), interaction bug (happened to me the night before, literally couldn't use any interactable spot on ships) which all play a much larger part than they should in PvP outcomes. I would honestly be okay if they redirected money for the last two seasons of the year to tackle these issues with more permanent fixes and bring back that 6 ship/24 player cap.

  • But it's a PIRATE GAME, BRO, WHY DON'T YOU GET GUD?" This is besides the point.

    It’s not about getting good, the point is you need to know the game what what it was designed for. Pvevp, mixed world, shared world.
    Risk=reward.

    As a non programmer, game designer etc. I’m just a simple gamer who enjoys the game for what it is. Everyone has started the game fresh and new before, and over time we have learned about the game. The dos and don’t.

    Why can’t others do the same? This isn’t the last game out there that follows this formula. Learn and practice. And just play the game

  • @bennick323

    Sea of Thieves is ruled by random chance. What you encounter, who you run into, it's all RNG based. I can only go by personal experience, but I would guess your hardships were more to do with bad luck than the absence of the Arena.

    Now, there are some ways to try and swing the numbers a smidge more in your favor. If possible, you could try switching up when your sessions are. Try and get on sometime outside of peak play times.

    Another thing is to NOT run an emissary flag. Emissaries are really only necessary if you're going for commendations or trying to fast grind gold and rep. Sailing under your own flag may be slower progress, but it takes the bullseye off your back. That grade 5, portal-hopping Reaper is just a regular old ship if he can't see you on the map table.

    Also, keep in mind that finishing voyages doesn't really matter outside of commendations. Treasure is treasure, and there's no gold or rep bonus for voyage completion.

    I'm not trying to dismiss your experience. I have no doubt it's true and it sounds frustrating as all get out. But I also know that you can have better sessions simply because I've had them.

    Heck, just two or three days ago I had probably my biggest haul ever. Three Sea Forts and three Treasuries. It was even one of my "let's play stupid" days where I didn't turn in my loot and hoarded it all on my ship. Going against all laws of solo slooping, just to see how full I could get it. Not only did I get to turn everything in at the end, but I wasn't accosted once.

    If you want to play Sea of Thieves with a minimized PvP aspect, it IS possible. You'll just be progressing a little slower and the high payout stuff will be problematic. The real secret is to try and divorce your enjoyment of the game from progression and gold. If you can find fun in the simple act of sailing around, fighting skellies, solving puzzles, and battling sea monsters, then sinking and losing time and/or gold won't bother you as much.

  • @bennick323
    ...So, what are you suggesting to be changed?

  • I can't even find people to steal from dude.

  • @bennick323 Definitely can empathize with the sentiment you are feeling. Sometimes, ships just seem to obstruct the critical path without reason, or head straight to you on sight. There really could be some events that are better designed to accommodate more than one ship so it doesn't become constant PvP.

    But I think it is just a string of bad luck, and when that happens, sometimes you have to be ready to abandon your voyage and do something different.

    Merchant Manifest voyages as an example can be very hit or miss. Sometimes bugs cause it to not be as rewarding, and other times, players sitting at outposts for long times prevent me from safely visiting the shipwreck nearby and completing. But learning what your crew's "conflict tolerance" is will help you avoid wasting time on something you won't be able to finish and turn in. It helps to always have a backup plan for something else you can do in the meantime to make money while your destination is occupied or ships are nearby.

    I think this is the reason there are so many smaller loot opportunities now. Sea Forts, Treasuries, Shrines, Merchant Cargo, Maps you can pick up from the quest board, tall tales can all be done without canceling your voyage.

    Whether any of those things are worth it is really up to your preference. I don't personally do the majority of those things I listed because more often, it seems that ships will flee from me if I just confidently stroll right where I need to go. But sometimes, I don't do that if I have a lot to lose.

    But even with all those caveats, Manifest voyages are still some of the most lucrative and low risk voyages you can undertake, so long as you recognize when it is just "one of those times" it isn't gonna work out.

    To me, Sea of Thieves has always been a social game, even more than it is a shooter or even a Pirate sandbox game. Sometimes, I will check the server to see what emissaries are being flown so that I can decide to fly the same one. That way, if I run into players who are extremely distrustful and will attack on sight to protect their loot, there is a chance I can convince them it is in our mutual best interest to alliance instead and keep our distance. They are probably just as fearful as I usually am that someone is going to steal their loot. Diplomacy and learning how to approach other ships before they get it in their head you are there to threaten them is critical, especially if you are slooping and want to avoid conflict.

    That all being said, I've been there where you are, more so when running sloop than anything else because it is just so slow and you can't choose to run for long if you do want to avoid conflict. This is one area I feel Rare has failed in terms of design, but maybe there are others.

    And because of that, I do agree that certain design elements need a second look, and could really benefit from your perspective.
    What do you think Rare should do to help players be a bit more practical / deliberate with when they choose to engage in PvP?

  • @hombre said in Systemic issues with PVP v PVE design:

    Another thing is to NOT run an emissary flag. Emissaries are really only necessary if you're going for commendations or trying to fast grind gold and rep. Sailing under your own flag may be slower progress, but it takes the bullseye off your back. That grade 5, portal-hopping Reaper is just a regular old ship if he can't see you on the map table.

    This can be right for people, I think they should consider it and do what they are comfortable with.

    As general advice it's not something I subscribe to.

    Only reaper 5's can track them and there aren't an overwhelming amount of hunters that are hopping for non-reaper/athena emissaries.

    Reapers are easy to keep track of so it makes the risk minimal compared to the profit potential.

    I would suggest as general advice that people at least give emissaries an honest attempt rather than fear the system.

    There is no requirement to hit 5, hitting 3 is quick in this game with some activity. Even selling at 3 can help improve efficiency significantly over time.

    I would start at a goal of hitting 3 and selling, give it a try, get used to it. Shake the fear and worry from narratives off.

    hit 3 ,sell, continue on hit 5,sell

    rinse, repeat

    Fortune and misfortune are far too random to completely avoid the emissary system imo.

    Maybe it's not for an individual but I'd recommend them finding that out for themselves.

  • I refer you to [https://www.youtube.com/embed/Q2uOdTVFiIQ?start=553&end=569](Joe Neat).

    As others have said, there's a strong element of risk vs reward. You make more money and rep with an emissary flag, but you become a bigger target from reapers. If you don't spend time checking the horizon, maybe you'll get your voyages done a hair quicker, but you won't see the galleon stalking you. A healthy sense of paranoia will get you far in this game. You can start out with small voyages and no emissary flag to learn the basics, but to truly be great at the game, you must learn to judge the risks you can and cannot take.

  • @wolfmanbush said in Systemic issues with PVP v PVE design:

    I would suggest as general advice that people at least give emissaries an honest attempt rather than fear the system.

    It's not really about fear as much as pragmatism. Small as the risk may be, it's still a risk. And if you want to min/max your involvement with other crews, it's one more tick on the dial.

    But that's also why I listed it second after playing outside of peak times. As I figure that's a bigger factor.

    Still, I'll admit that the Emissary system has always been rather useless for me. As someone who never cared much for commendations or grinding, the benefits of the Emissary system really holds no appeal for me so it's easier to dismiss.

    It's all down to what you personally enjoy about the game. But going sans Emissary is still an option, so I felt I should list it.

  • @hombre said in Systemic issues with PVP v PVE design:

    @wolfmanbush said in Systemic issues with PVP v PVE design:

    I would suggest as general advice that people at least give emissaries an honest attempt rather than fear the system.

    It's not really about fear as much as pragmatism. Small as the risk may be, it's still a risk. And if you want to min/max your involvement with other crews, it's one more tick on the dial.

    But that's also why I listed it second after playing outside of peak times. As I figure that's a bigger factor.

    Still, I'll admit that the Emissary system has always been rather useless for me. As someone who never cared much for commendations or grinding, the benefits of the Emissary system really holds no appeal for me so it's easier to dismiss.

    It's all down to what you personally enjoy about the game. But going sans Emissary is still an option, so I felt I should list it.

    The majority of organic activity that I have seen related to the narratives about the risks of emissaries is that they feel safer because of the narratives about reapers and being marked but they are still taking counterproductive risks and still not playing efficiently.

    This leads to people doing world events without emissaries, messing with fotd without emissaries, stacking loot without emissaries, spending forever on pve that doesn't make sense for their goals without emissaries.

    A lot of people cutting down on their profits for a false sense of security while they still take high risks.

    So even if they manage to survive they significantly cut down on their profits in exchange for not really being safer because they are engaged in heavily hunted activities and scenarios where the time they take is riskier.

    If they are already taking the higher risks they might as well consider getting good pay for it. A ship without an emissary sitting for a long time at a world event or parked at an island, or at the fotd is likely to get popped eventually without an emissary, makes sense to throw one on if they aren't exclusively trying to stay safe in the shadows.

  • Play on xbox/controller preferred. 😅

  • Hello there, seems like you are venting a bit as some of the points you make seem challenging in terms of believability. Specifically it just seems like a stretch that for 3 day in a row you had other players coming for you every 5 minutes. Not sure what I can tell you but to continue playing as the chances of the encounter you present seems extreme of what is usual in the game. There are multiple days where I go without other players attacking. This illogical reasoning is further proven by the fact that you state "There is no such thing as a good day anymore", that every server is bad, and that you get attacked at emissary lvl 1 from the get go or instantly. The main feeling I get from your topic is that it was based on emotion, and I may imply that you were in some way defeated as people don't usually tend to complain about winning.

    With that said, there are some small specks of criticism that I can agree with. Mainly, the fact that portal hopping tall tales is an exploitation of game mechanics. Perhaps the only exploit that should currently be allowed is the sword lunge exploit, which in that case should just be made an actual in game mechanic by transferring all the exploits abilities to the original sword lunge. Anywho, going back to the tall tale portal exploit, I can not agree with the devs when they allow such a "shady" use of in game mechanics, that is, a game mechanic that has a hidden aspect that is achieved through the gamer or player "jumping through hoops"

  • @wolfmanbush

    Well yes, I did say that the high payout activities (forts and such) would still be problematic.

    All you said is true IF you're coming at it from a profit perspective. And as I said at the end of my first post, one of my main suggestions is to try and divorce your enjoyment of the game from profit and progression.

    Now some might not be able to do this. And some might not want to, as grinding IS fun to some players. And that's fine. But the OP was having trouble with hostile players, so I was providing the solution that worked for me. Maybe it works for him and maybe it doesn't.

    I'm not trying to downplay or villainize the Emissary system. I'm just reminding him that it's an option. And it may be worth experimenting with and without it to see how it effects the game for him.

  • @hombre said in Systemic issues with PVP v PVE design:

    @wolfmanbush

    Well yes, I did say that the high payout activities (forts and such) would still be problematic.

    All you said is true IF you're coming at it from a profit perspective. And as I said at the end of my first post, one of my main suggestions is to try and divorce your enjoyment of the game from profit and progression.

    Now some might not be able to do this. And some might not want to, as grinding IS fun to some players. And that's fine. But the OP was having trouble with hostile players, so I was providing the solution that worked for me. Maybe it works for him and maybe it doesn't.

    I'm not trying to downplay or villainize the Emissary system. I'm just reminding him that it's an option. And it may be worth experimenting with and without it to see how it effects the game for him.

    For the most part this has the intended effect in the roar.

    For a majority of the areas outside of the roar it pretty much comes down to are there organic hunters on the server or not.

    If there are, pretty much everywhere outside of the roar is gonna get checked on by an organic hunter on the server. Some check the roar but enough don't to where it would be notably safer over time. Organic hunters will largely stay busy with the other ships on the server in more central/active or appealing locations to fight.

    If someone were to go without an emissary on the basis of being safer I'd suggest sticking to the roar.

    I think the op has their mind made up on the environment and the design of the environment and that will lead to the same result as long as the view stays the same.

    I think that this interaction between us has been a positive opportunity to offer views of experience for two different approaches. This becomes a resource for newer pirates and pirates with less experience to look over if they want to in the future to use a foundation to form their own approaches to their sessions. So thank you for your contribution.

  • @wolfmanbush

    alt text

  • @bennick323
    Stick to Roar or North-west side of map. Those are usually very calm and no one bothers around. I have done the Treasury in northwest like 50 times solo slooping with no one ever coming around to sink my ship while Im down there. Islands around like Sailors Bounty are peaceful so take multiple voyages and stick to them. It is very easy to gather loot without interruptions if you know where to sail. Midmap and areas around events are no-go-zone. When skellie fort rarely appears at Keel Haul Fort it can be taken solo since it is rarely contested due remote location.

  • @bennick323 said in Systemic issues with PVP v PVE design:

    I am a game designer/programmer...

    I'm a designer and programmer too, and in my almost 20 years of experience I realized one simple thing: If a system doesn't meet what you need, just look for one that is exactly what you want or simply create one. So here we have two options: You can try other games like King of Seas, Assassins Creed Black Flag or even try to be part of Skull and Bones Insider (But its has PvP too), or you can develop a similar game with the mechanics you like, sell your proposal and earn a lot of money. Both options are very interesting.

  • Ahoy, going to be dropping anchor on this thread as there is a post about Rare's thoughts on PvPvE (including a link to the Sea of Thieves Podcast that discusses it) here: https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/136693/pvpve-the-team-s-thoughts/1

    You can read an article by Joe here in regards to Private/Custom Servers.

    Thank you.

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