Trying to understand an old taboo in this game

  • Minhoca SoT
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    I would like to say that I created this topic just so that some doubts are clarified, not to generate any kind of controversy or fights between the community members. I would like to talk about sinking ships. Yes, this subject has already been discussed, but a long time ago, and I would like new theories and ideas that could clarify things.

    There were countless explanations as to why such a system cannot be implemented, from arguments such as "this will be abused by players" such as "you don't sink ships, water sinks ships", which, moreover, was used as an argument for that in Arena Mode , the attacking ships did not receive points for defending ships that are sunk, but the sunken ship that loses points. I did not pursue these arguments again, I am basing myself on what I remember.

    Year in Review
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this year the review showed the number of sunk ships. I don't really remember if the number shown indicates our ships that have sunk, or if it indicates the number of enemy ships that (in theory) we have sunk. If the ships shown are enemy ships that we attack and sink, the game knows who sink whom.

    The water in theory is a lifebar
    I will try to exemplify in a simple way, I will be comparing the water in the ship as the lifebar of many games. In theory, the system is the same, in practice, I don't know. There are several examples where the one who wins the kill is the player who takes the last shot, there are cases where the one who wins the kill is the one who did the most damage to the enemy, and cases where the team wins the kill. In any case, the water would be an inverted lifebar, something similar to the Super Smash Bros lifebar, where it goes from 0 to 100 (or more).

    In theory, if an object is launched on another, it needs to go from point A to B. o A launched the object, B was hit by it. I will use the example of the team winning the kill, as it is the easiest example and perhaps the most suitable. Assuming that A is my ship, and B is the enemy ship, if A shoots something at B, and B empties his life bar (or fills with water, whatever), the point would go to A.

    Let's make things difficult. Suppose there are A, B and C. A and B throw something at C. A makes 70% of the bar full, B makes 30% of the bar full, but gives the final blow. Who should earn points? I think it should be A. Or, better yet, A wins 70% of points, B wins 30%.

    In any case, I believe that it is possible to know who shot whom, be it ship with cannons, be it player against player. Even though in some possibilities there is no way to know who sank a ship, like when you get on a ship and hit them on the rocks, in theory, there are ways to know who sank whom.

    Anyway, I didn't think much of the idea, I just decided to think about the basics and play here for the community to discuss about.

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  • AugspaCussh
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    One of the initial problems I can see is this (specifically in arena):
    Team A damages your ship, placing a hole. Team B boards you and prevents you from repairing/bailing. You sink because of the hole Team A placed into your ship, but Team B did a ton of work.

    Same scenario, except now Team A isn't involved. In this case, you accidentally run into a rock, creating the hole. Team B still boards you, and still protects the damage until you sink.

    I just don't think there is a way to get the game to recognize Team B's contributions in either scenario.

  • CotU42
    Lord
    Insider

    @targasbr

    Ok, now 70% was done by A, B did 30% yet C who was under attacked bailed at that time 40% of the water that was in their ship but also gained 35% for hitting a rock and 5% from rain. What if the deck was dry as a point? Who is now the victor and how will you distribute the points?

    You act like the one being pummeled by cannons are not counter acting the damage dealt. The majority of crews sink due to persistent pressure to the point that they cannot keep up, being dead or out of resources or simply having to many issues with pirates.

    What if A brought the Keg on board of C but a member of B shot it, who would get credit for those holes?

    If A and B hit the same spot, A opens size one hole, B opens it to a size 2 hole... who gets the credit?

    Rare can make rough estimations for the sunk by players or who did what... but if you want to track how much a crew contributes to the sinking of a ship in a multi crew environment it becomes real complicated real fast, also this is just a 3 way, what about a 4, 5, 6 way battle?

    What about preventing repairs or bailing?

    There are so many variables in play that an accurate and fair calculation is not an easy task.

  • Minhoca SoT
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    @cotu42 and @bactatankbill I fully agree with both, but even with lots of variables, still possible to calculate in many ways. And this is exactly my question: is it really impossible to do this or devs are just too lazy to calculate?

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @cotu42 said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    @targasbr

    The majority of crews sink due to:

    1. persistent pressure to the point that they cannot keep up,
    2. being dead or out of resources, or
    3. simply having too many issues with pirates.

    This is key phrasing right here, pirates. Pay attention! 🧐

  • Minhoca SoT
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    @galactic-geek said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    1. persistent pressure to the point that they cannot keep up,

    The cannonball must come from somewhere.

    1. being dead or out of resources, or

    If he dies, someone or something needs to kill. If the resources run out, it is because they were used, for that they need to suffer damage, in theory...

    1. simply having too many issues with pirates.

    In this case, we know who attacked, pirates.

    But the point is not even mentioned, but as I said above, the point is that, increasingly, I believe it is possible.

  • CotU42
    Lord
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    @targasbr it is not impossible to calculate a number, the issue is what value do you give everything?

    What is more important, where do you draw the line in the sand and how does that influence the meta if you start attributing points to it.

  • AugspaCussh
    Captain
    Insider

    @targasbr said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    is it really impossible to do this or devs are just too lazy to calculate?

    Impossible? No. But it may not be worth the effort to code and test all these crazy scenarios since they already have a working model in place.

    I guess you could technically call it laziness, though I think they're probably just busy creating new content, etc.

  • Sweltering Nick
    Castaway

    @targasbr

    Year in Review

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this year the review showed the number of sunk ships. I don't really remember if the number shown indicates our ships that have sunk, or if it indicates the number of enemy ships that (in theory) we have sunk. If the ships shown are enemy ships that we attack and sink, the game knows who sink whom.

    No, anyone who is near the ship when it sinks, gets a counter on the "ships sunk". :P

    It has nothing to do with credit, and everything to do with being in proximity of ships that sink...

    I've sailed past people who sunk skeleton ships, and gotten a few counts on "skeleton ships sunk" from that alone... Even though me and my crew never touched said skeleton ship in any way, shape or form. xD

    We did, however, enter the skelly-ships aggro radius, and heard the music... This is most likely why we got credit for other people sinking it, because the game registered us as in combat with the skelly ship when it sunk. For that to be possible with player ships, you'd need to turn player ships into some kind of AI, which is no doubt a headache in terms of coding.

    Let's make things difficult. Suppose there are A, B and C. A and B throw something at C. A makes 70% of the bar full, B makes 30% of the bar full, but gives the final blow. Who should earn points? I think it should be A. Or, better yet, A wins 70% of points, B wins 30%.

    This is not relevant, because the game doesn't keep track of what the source of each hole on your ship comes from.

    In any case, I believe that it is possible to know who shot whom, be it ship with cannons, be it player against player.

    Theoretically, if they programmed the game to keep track of what source each hole comes from, there would easily be an "assisted kill" system in place.

    Ultimately, water sinks ships, so the sea itself claims the kill, but, everyone that contributed to damaging the ship that sunk, gets credit for sinking it, AKA, a +1 on their "ships sunk" counter.

    Makes a whole lot more sense to me than applying credit to a singular perpetrator out of all the perpetrators present.

    Even though in some possibilities there is no way to know who sank a ship, like when you get on a ship and hit them on the rocks, in theory, there are ways to know who sank whom.

    No, there isn't... Even if the game kept track of where each hole on the ship came from, it's ultimately the water reaching the top deck that sinks the ship, not any specific cannon-hole.

    let's say the ship has 10 holes.

    5 are from a player galleon.
    3 are from a player sloop.
    2 are from a player brigantine.

    By your logic, since the galleon has the most holes, they would get sink-credit, but the truth of the matter is, the galleon didn't sink it, not single-handedly.

    The water that sunk the ship is 50% from the galleon holes, 30% from the sloop holes and 20% from the brigantine holes... And that is excluding the tier of the cannon holes in question.

    As it happens, the galleon has 5 tier 1 holes, the sloop has 3 tier 3 holes and the brigantine has 2 tier 2 holes.

    Now, based on how much water each of these holes fill the ship per second, the percentages of who filled the ship with the most water changes drastically... And what happens when you hit the exact spot that another ship hits? Do they steal credit for the hole now? Do they share credit for it? How will that work?

    No doubt there's a reliable mathematical way to solve this, but the point is... All the holes combined is what sunk the ship, without the brigs holes, the ship wouldn't have sunk, without the galleons holes, the ship would not have sunk, and without the sloops holes, the ship would not have sunk.

    All of them combined, sunk the ship, and so, they all deserve credit... It doesn't matter how dominant the sloops percentage was. : /

    Implementing such a calculation-heavy mechanic into the game is going to MURDER fps significantly. xD

    So the best way to handle this is to simply give credit to anyone who lands a cannonball hit on the ship in question... It tracks credit, but isn't calculation instensive... And so, it must apply a fixed amount of credit to anyone who gets credit, to treat everyone fairly.

  • PithyRumble
    Rogue
    Insider

    @sweltering-nick

    What he said lol.

    As I understand in Adventure anyone who damaged the victim gets credit for the kill(skelly ships, player ships, mega, krakens. I know being ON a fort gets you commendation credits even if you're a tucker. Can't speak from experience for sailing past a skelly/meg/karen, but you should get credit even if you spray and spray with the blunderbuss and land one pellet.

    Don't play arena, have no idea or opinion on that matter lol.

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
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    Founder

    @cotu42 said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    @targasbr it is not impossible to calculate a number, the issue is what value do you give everything?

    What is more important, where do you draw the line in the sand and how does that influence the meta if you start attributing points to it.

    I think that values ​​can be thought of, it can be difficult, take time, but it is not impossible.

  • Minhoca SoT
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    @bactatankbill said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    @targasbr said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    is it really impossible to do this or devs are just too lazy to calculate?

    Impossible? No. But it may not be worth the effort to code and test all these crazy scenarios since they already have a working model in place.

    I guess you could technically call it laziness, though I think they're probably just busy creating new content, etc.

    I don't know for games, but when we develop systems, we use a technique that is test-oriented programming. Basically, we do the test before actually programming what should be programmed. This way we can predict (almost) all scenarios before starting the application. I don't know if they use this type of technique, I believe not.

    I understand that they are busy creating new content, but from a certain point of view, this would be new content. Although I think they should be more busy trying to fix bugs...

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
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    @sweltering-nick

    I was going to quote some things, especially the skeleton ships, but it's too long. Anyway. I hadn't thought of it this way, but still, there is a possibility, even if it is based on proximity.

    If I'm not mistaken, the game shows where the shot comes from, when we program something like this, we need to orient to objects, at least in theory. And as I mentioned above, you don't have to "give credit" to anyone, just distribute the points. They may seem like a lot of calculations, but they are not anything that will affect performance. We are only talking about simple calculations.

    Anyway, I understand your point, but Rare makes it clear that such a system is possible, but as always, I think they will create some random lore as an excuse for not doing it.

  • CotU42
    Lord
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    @targasbr said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    @cotu42 said in Trying to understand an old taboo in this game:

    @targasbr it is not impossible to calculate a number, the issue is what value do you give everything?

    What is more important, where do you draw the line in the sand and how does that influence the meta if you start attributing points to it.

    I think that values ​​can be thought of, it can be difficult, take time, but it is not impossible.

    In Arena they already did, each cannonball hit dealing damage to the ship is 25 points, each pirate killed 5 points, if you lose the ship -1000 points.

    In essence that is what it comes down to, killing to prevent pirate activity, ship damage done (since no kegs no points given to those) and valuation of keeping the ship alive, fail to do so and you lose points.

    This places emphasis on the pressure for the ones attacking and places the value of the ships survival with the owners.

    In essence they broke up the equation into smaller parts and award them the value they deemed reasonable for each aspect. 1 shot with the cannonball is equivalent to 5 kills, the ships survival is worth 40 cannonballs or 200 kills.

    Personally believe this is a far better and more transparent approach compared to the how much water is to be attributed per team, which is a bit ambiguous. I think the value of the ship is way to low, but it is the value given.

    I don't get why people are so worried about how much they contribute to a sunken ship, as for me the game isn't about who did more damage or more kills ... the victor is the one floating at the end. To me as a pirate my ship is the most valued possession I have and why or how the other goes down is less relevant than the fact it does. Maybe you did the smart move and let two fight it out and waste resources and came in at the end to finish off the victor.

    This is embodied in the Adventure mode, as all the spoils go to the one floating, regardless if you were less good at being a killing machine, whether or not you needed to bail 1000 more buckets of water than the other... if you don't sink you haven't lost.

    A value is easy enough to calculate and is already done in essence, just not by measuring water levels. I have won Arena matches by landing those last crucial cannonball hits to win or bump myself to second place.

    Why are chests the end all be all in Arena, because a single chest is the equivalent to a single ship... which is absurd to me. If you are ahead by 2 chests, you can battle it out and even lose, while still being the victor.

    Where the values are placed will determine the meta and the actions of players... there is no need for Rare to map how people sink, as I think they are right to place the value of the ship with its crew and not that of others... we dont want to head to a meta, just shoot cannonballs, but we are sinking: doesn't matter we need to put more water in their hull who cares about our ship!

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
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    @cotu42 I still think that the game should emphasize more in PvP and give rewards to those who do the work of pirates: kill and steal.

  • CotU42
    Lord
    Insider

    @targasbr if we are talking about Arena I couldn't agree more, but for me it is a more easy way to solve this: increase the penalty of sinking.

    To me defending your ship, keeping it alive should be equivalent to 4 or 5 chests at a minimum, not this one for one deal... Sinking should be devastating for the crew that fails to stay alive. Those that PvP and sink others will get enough points from cannonballs and kills to offset a chest maybe 2 if they are really good... but if they could take away points by sinking people to drop them down at a pace that makes sense it would drive PvP superiority to be awarded, the one catch you cannot just suicide in and sacrifice your own ship in the process, 4 man boarding shenanigans and that stuff.

    I am not in favor of a meta that becomes about sinking the other at all costs, but I am not in favor of the current meta in the Arena where selling chests is more important than anything else either.

    They announced a new experience... we will have to see where that goes.

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