(Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    With underwater vaults from the Shrines being very far away, Rare introduced a means to haul loot towards your ship, using a mermaid that collects all the loot and distributes it in one go while on the surface.

    This also has one major issue when that ship gets attacked; The defender can force a stalemate on all the loot, keeping it inside the Loot Siren until they liberate it.

    For ages people have already despised the "if I can't have it, then neither can you" mentality. It's toxic, destructive, and leads to not any possible form of positive outcome from a PvP interaction. This over the years usually manifested into people running into the red sea.

    Now, we have a new form of destructive stalemate, being the Loot Siren. Only the defending crew can pop the Loot Siren, not anyone else, even after their ship has already sunk, or have left. This means that the defending crew can hostage/stalemate all the loot when there's any form of threat nearby. Even after they were clearly contested or taken out, either in ambush or upfront fight, the loot is still unavailable to take by the victors.

    Hence my suggestion; Make the Loot Siren pop all its loot, when the crew's ship it belonged to sinks or scuttles.

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  • Ninja Naranja
    Champion
    Insider

    You’re not entitled to their loot. The reason it doesn’t pop up after their ship sinks is so they can go back for it. Otherwise people would just come by, sink an unmanned ship and get a bunch of free loot.

    If you really want it you could just wait on a nearby island and jump them as soon as they start to sail away.

  • Bun E Hopps
    Rogue

    @matroos-mens thats a horrible idea, it will just make people not want to do the shrines because its way more toxic to sink a ship with nobody on it and take whatever loot they already added to the siren than to wait nearby for them to finish the shrine and call for the loot to rise, you can easily sail in and attack while the loot is being placed on the ship.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @ninja-naranja except isn't that how all remote-destination missions were handled, like Vaults and lost Shipments? I'd argue you're absolutely deservant of their loot, because you killed and sank them.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @amybun said:

    more toxic to sink a ship with nobody on it

    Yeah, so much for consequences leaving a ship unattended. It's not like different remote-activity events such as Vaults needed a hotfix because people CBA to watch your surroundings, because they know the game's a PvEvP game, and other players may always swoop in to battle them for their spoils.

    wait nearby for them to finish the shrine and call for the loot to rise

    Except they don't. When they see there's a ship further away stationed and they don't trust it, they're not gonna touch that loot for a while, and then NOBODY then can get it. There's no timer for the crew to go by, they literally just need to wait and 'exist' in the server for it to remain.

    It goes way further beyond than 'hiding' the loot because that can an enemy at least find if the defenders didn't outwit them, and islands reset if you leave them unattended for too long. Nobody can ever contest it, nobody can ever do the same shrine until THEY claim the loot.

    Being sunk is a meaningless loss/risk, because they can store every profit for PvP in an intangible place, until they return when it's safe less the pvper wants to waste time lurking the shrine for hours. Hence why the suggestion says; only liberate the loot when it's clear they failed to defend/contest the shrine, and/or have left the server.

  • SweetSandMan
    Legend
    Insider

    Similar to the red sea, if you want their loot, you're going to have to outsmart them. Nobody is, or should be, entitled to releasing the loot inside of the merm's backpack except the crew that put it there.

    I actually think it's going to be really fun baiting crews into false senses of security after completing a Treasury.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    I'm wondering if it's worth taking non-shrine loot beneath the waves (like stacked Chests of Legends, for example) to safe-guard it. 🤔

  • RealStyli
    Vanguard
    Insider

    Terrible idea. Comparing them to the lost shipments and gold vaults; these shrines and treasuries are far more involved. It was done this way to appease PvEers and mitigate their issues. That said, I've seen plenty of streams of players stealing them. Not every crew does a safety check when they come up.

    They also still have to get the loot aboard after releasing it, and then sail to sell it. Plenty of opportunities to attack.

    @galactic-geek said in (Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.:

    I'm wondering if it's worth taking non-shrine loot beneath the waves (like stacked Chests of Legends, for example) to safe-guard it. 🤔

    It should be possible but you run the risk of losing them on a server merge. It also takes so long to swim down I suspect that would deter most players.

  • GreatFailure82
    Marauder

    there should certainly be a timer on the mermaid. 10/15 minutes after you've packed the loot if you haven't unpacked it yet then the mermaid should automatically do it. that gives you enough time to sail back over to your location if your sunk and fight over the loot but also means PvPers dont die of boredom

  • Odyssee mit Tee
    Sailor

    Is that a new type of "red sea ranting" format?

    If you want loot, why not ally up with people? Ooooooooh no, THE HORROR!!!!!!! :D

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @odyssee-mit-tee said in (Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.:

    Is that a new type of "red sea ranting" format?

    If you want loot, why not ally up with people? Ooooooooh no, THE HORROR!!!!!!! :D

    🤣

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    I'd rather they not kill cool stuff that works fine

  • CallMeBackdrafT
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    @matroos-mens you’re funny… if they created it like you said 90% of people would not bother with shrines and treasuries to begin with.

    Its different to vaults or any other voyage because you have no other option then to leave your ship alone for minutes at a time.

    “Punish people for leaving their ship unattended” how else do solo players want to engage with this content?

    Nobody is deservant of any loot in the game that they haven’t sold, and if you think your idea is genuinely good then you have not even spent half a second thinking about the consequences of such a change and how it would severely limit the amount if players even engaging with any of the new content

    As an attacker you will have to show a certain level of restraint and patience if you want to get rewarded, if you cant bring that up the players will find their ship at a different island and can wait some more before eventually picking it up.

  • AtomicFire4098
    Marauder
    Insider

    @matroos-mens If you want the loot from the shrine just go down and pull the loot out of a mermaid and put it back this works as my crew fought another crew in the shrine and we just keep pulling it out and putting it back in and they kept doing the same thing it was a fun time

  • BurnBacon
    Vanguard
    Insider

    Sounds like someone dislikes sinking random, empty ships out in the ocean and getting nothing....Only to find out if they had idk...waited, they could of had all the loot once they spawned up from the depths

    Vaults, where its only few min and you can easily return to your ship because its only a few feet. That why you cant safe guard.

    If they did this, nobody would risk the rewards. Spending hours below the sea, away from your ship. (Which you cant protect or see) collecting loot.

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    Free loot without a fair fight as players continue doing the shrine. Unbeknownst to them some coward has sunk their ship and now has access to loot they never had a chance to collect.

    No thanks.

  • DrizKillz
    Commander
    Insider

    @matroos-mens It's not your loot until stolen and in your hands, if they don't want to play by your rules in their sandbox game, then kindly find the nearest brick wall and let it know you're unhappy; otherwise, go get it yourself. There's nothing wrong with the owner coming back anytime they want, even if it's not on your schedule or doesn't agree with your wishes. This concept might be new to you, but... get over it.

  • Ninja Naranja
    Champion
    Insider

    @matroos-mens if you want the loot you gotta work for it. Killing an unmanned ship takes no skill whatsoever and thus you shouldn’t get more loot from it. If you want loot either go out there and fight someone for it or go get it yourself.

    Asking for other people’s loot while putting in no work yourself makes you look entitled. Wether with shrines or Red Sea Runners.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @sweetsandman There is nothing "outsmarting" anybody by suiciding into the red sea.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @sshteeve Free loot without any effort needed to watch, guard or defend against contestants in a PvEvP game because nobody can touch or interupt you until you declare it's safe?

    No thanks.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @drizkillz said in (Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.:

    @matroos-mens It's not your loot until stolen and in your hands

    Except for the first time in its 3 years, the game now literally made a mechanic where you CAN'T even steal it in the first place.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @ninja-naranja Nobody said anything about an unmanned ship. I specifically mentioned "they were clearly contested or taken out, either in ambush or upfront fight".

    Even if they lose in a proper sea battle, the loot is still to the defenders.

  • ThrownBacchus
    Marauder
    Insider

    @matroos-mens
    What sweetsandman clearly meant was outsmart the ones running to the red sea.
    There is nothing 'outsmarting' sinking an unmanned ship either.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @thrownbacchus I didn't mention anything about an unmanned ship. This loot stalemate exists in ANY form of loss; ambush, AND straight-up fight.

    Even if, say, the galleon saw another galleon b-line to them while they just wrapped up the shrine, but got enough time to prepare and position, they still won't lose anything, even if it was a completely fair fight.

  • DrizKillz
    Commander
    Insider

    @matroos-mens said in (Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.:

    Except for the first time in its 3 years, the game now literally made a mechanic where you CAN'T even steal it in the first place.

    Once they have it in their possession it's up to you to grab it. It's theirs to grab whenever and if they can out-camp you then that's your decision. It has to be picked up there, if you don't want to wait, then find another server.

  • ThrownBacchus
    Marauder
    Insider

    @matroos-mens
    You mentioned that Siren Loot should pop up if the ship is sunk or scuttles.
    Did you not mean sinking an unmanned ship? As it isn't clear whether you did or not.

  • Kapitein Kater
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Mainly I only see this as an "issue" if a ship (that fully completed the Shrine) suddenly opts not to claim the loot. If the ship was still busy clearing the shrine, then no, you can use that time to device a plan like tucking on their ship with a gunpowder barrel.

    Against unmanned ships while the shrine is still in progress, I absolutely agree nothing should be changed. However against people that have finished the shrine and are fully able to defend or react, then yes, they very clearly failed to defend the Shrine. Hostaging the loot from a completed shrine, (and sequentially disabling the Shrine to anyone else) as a last-ditch effort to mess over your attacker, without anyone being able to interrupt it sounds awful.

    Yesterday we came across a brig doing one of the shrines, but the ship was unmanned. I hid in the ship and they seemed to talk through game chat. About 15 minutes later they had fully completed it, but vocally chose not to pop the Siren yet because they were plundered (we stole all their supplies, but by the time they resurfaced, our ship was nowhere near render distance). They were later attacked by another sloop, and that brig sank 3 times over before they left. The loot from that Shrine? Never to be taken by anyone because they chose to.

  • Kapetan GG
    Rogue

    [mod edit]

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @thrownbacchus It very specifically mentioned "in ambush or in upfront fight". But I'm not surprised why people don't read that and immediately jump to the conclusion it's talking about raiding an unmanned ship.

    @DrizKillz so the only way to win over the attacker is to waste their time until they give up? Pray tell me how that is a GOOD design choice?

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @kapetan-gg said in (Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.:

    All you need to do is change your strategy and tactics. In the end DEVs wanted to achieve that.

    From practice over my runs in the last 2 days, that won't happen. They won't pop the loot siren if they see any player ship nearby them, even if it never intended to go for them. They just go to the next location and hold the loot 'reserved' for them. This also wasn't the DEV's choice, they did this mechanic to save wasting time from loot-hauling, not creating an intangible zone of loot in the case they get sunk. This was never found as an issue in Insiders because nobody PvP's there.

    [mod edit]

    I'm not sure what PvPers you ever came across, but that is factually not true, PvP battles last for far longer and most of our fights aren't random, new or worthless ships. On top of that it's purely disgusting and disrespectful you not only generalize PvPers here but also stereotype and talk smack about under the guise of 'this is my opinion'.

  • SweetSandMan
    Legend
    Insider

    @matroos-mens said in (Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.:

    @sweetsandman There is nothing "outsmarting" anybody by suiciding into the red sea.

    False. It becomes obvious WAY before a crew makes it to the red sea that they are going to to the red sea, right? Don't keep chasing them until they're out of bounds. Outsmart them. Bait them into a false sense of security. Back off and hide behind a large island that is between them and a perceived safe return with the loot. It doesn't always guarantee they'll come back, but it's better than chasing them to the end of the map where you know the outcome.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @sweetsandman I don't know what kind of tactics you're adcovating but in all the 3 years I've played SoT that has NEVER resolved the way you describe. They still know you were there and have their eyes on you.

    Especially now with the map extension that's flat out impossible to do because the border is much further away from any island you could possibly hide behind.

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @matroos-mens said in (Sunken Shrines) When a ship sinks/scuttles, release all the loot its loot siren held.:

    @sshteeve Free loot without any effort needed to watch, guard or defend against contestants in a PvEvP game because nobody can touch or interupt you until you declare it's safe?

    No thanks.

    and no thanks to your idea with all due respect.

    You expect a crew to basically leave a man behind and not be able to enjoy the new content just because another crew can rock up and sink you without you having any possible chance of knowing when you're down in a shrine.

    It also then means a solo slooper basically can't do the new content, as they will have no chance of protecting their loot and being able to do the new stuff.

    Sorry matey but your idea isn't very good for the above reason. Just as a crew can choose to leave a chest hidden on an island, or just not dig up an Athena, so too can they choose to not let a mermaid open that clam shell. There is no way for the game to know whether a crew is off ship in the shrine, or off ship because they fell off. How would you suggest the program the game to decide when the shell opens otherwise?

    To want otherwise is to want free loot with zero effort.

  • Matroos Mens
    Castaway

    @sshteeve Except it doesn't look like you're realizing this loot Stalemate exists far beyond leaving your ship unattended. And I'm frankly surprised why you're still hellbent on assuming this is an 'unmanned ship' fight while multiple times has been written that it isn't.

    When everything's wrapped up and you have eyes on your ship again, even when you have full ability to observe, prepare and position against a ship that's having their eyes on you, that loot is STILL unavailable to get. Even in a fully fair fight where you have had every ability to use your full skill and attention to fight off an attacked, on a loss you still don't lose anything, and on their win they still didn't win anything. No matter how well you or they fought, no matter how the odds were, no matter who won or loss, that loot is still yours to collect at any time only you wish to. In a PvEvP game, that's bad.

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @matroos-mens again - do you think then that when someone is on an Athena run and they decide to not dig the final chest, if you sink them the loot should just pop up out of the ground for you to take? You fought them fair and square in PVP afterall.

    The same stalemate exists in that way as well, just as it does if someone runs to the red sea as you mentioned in the OP

    It isn't toxic for a crew to do as they wish with their loot matey, nor is it up to us to tell them how to play in a sandbox game where Rare has always emphasised the idea of tools not rules.

    Just because a PVP sailor wants to fight and gain loot doesn't mean someone more inclined to PVE has to stand and fight and risk it all.

    Rare has done plenty to address the PVP situation:

    • Reaper chests
    • Reaper Flags and Emmissary
    • Reapers Hideout and faction (that awards for sinks and flags and other loot)
    • Arena
    • Forts that focus players to one location to battle for loot

    You are asking them to change one specific aspect of a new release, two days in, just because it doesn't fit your playstyle.

    I've said all I will on the subject, please leave it there.

    Ta'ra

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