I am trying to play Arena with my friend from PC. He does use a controller and is willing to disable keyboard-mouse. However, the game won't allow us to join a server with the option to prefer players with controllers. Why is that? You should address that as many other games do it already.
Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?
@snikefriend
What FPS games allow you to plug in a controller to your PC and go up against other controller players? The reason why most games don't do this is because all you have to do is plug in a controller, get into a game with ONLY controller players, then unplug the controller and play on mouse and keyboard.Most games don't allow PC players to play with xbox players just by plugging in a controller, because you can easily unplug it and then use mouse and keyboard.
@kaijoi What? Many games support input based matchmaking, Cod, Fortnite, Destiny 2 and others. And no, it doesn't work like that. It disables mouse-keyboard until the game ends so you can't do this.
@kaijoi said in Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?:
@snikefriend
What FPS games allow you to plug in a controller to your PC and go up against other controller players? The reason why most games don't do this is because all you have to do is plug in a controller, get into a game with ONLY controller players, then unplug the controller and play on mouse and keyboard.Most games don't allow PC players to play with xbox players just by plugging in a controller, because you can easily unplug it and then use mouse and keyboard.
In many (if not most) games it IS separated by input and not platform when KB/M is an option on both systems. And in actuality this would be a more fair division as far as this game goes since that is the only real tangible advantage that PC has over Xbox ... and even that is slight (but may change if hit registration is ever effectively fixed) and generally only benefits those that play the game as a FPS.
@bugaboo-bill said in Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?:
@snikefriend because it is to easy to cheese it.
XIM
That makes no sense as Xbox players can still use that device to get around the "controller only" requirement in Xbox only sessions (since it is recognizedly the console as a controller). And as far as I know that device only works with consoles as it is not necessary on PC since both inputs are supported on most games natively (thus rendering such a device on PC useless).
@bugaboo-bill
Just letting you know xbox users are already doing that and have been.
It should be input based but you opened up a can of worms. Just know you are not going to get any kind of satisfactory answer to your question. Shortest version is that its PC vs Xbox. Thats the reason. It doesn't matter input, or whatever, the reason is PC vs Xbox.
PC = super elite god mode $10k rig , Xbox = Etch-A-Sketch.
PC Players = Fps Gods of the Universe with 100% 360 no scope , Xbox players = Helpless lost Lambs.
PC Players = Super Toxic Cheaters that are all from hell , Xbox Players = Innocent pure souls that would never cheat or lie and that are all about love, peace, and happiness.
The above mentioned is a pretty condensed and OVER DRAMATIZED version of the main 3 arguments, but thats pretty much it really. I don't know how long this will go because mods might close it. Not saying anything is bad about the post but the discussion will possibly lead to crossplay which I think they are pretty tired of.
If you get any answer you are satisfied with, good on you. If you don't, then I suggest not going down any deeper down that rabbit hole.
I'm a controller player on PC.
I don't think this split is necessary.
There are some games that do it but they usually have a higher skill ceiling and difference between using K&M vs using a controller. SoT doesn't have headshots and it's pretty generous with hitboxes (hit reg issues aside) so aiming isn't really that much of an issue.
There are some things Rare could do to improve the experience but I don't think it's an inherent issue with the input method. Things such as increasing the ceiling for sensitivity and allowing more control over sensitivity in certain contexts - such as when using a map or when looking around while on the wheel.
Everything else I am pretty okay with. In some cases, such as with rumble or sailing the ship, it's even an advantage to use a controller (you can tell when the wheel is centred without the need to look at it, for instance).
I'm just not sure the numbers are there to support another split in the playerbase and we already know from these discussions that console players, for the most part, are unwilling to budge and allow PC controller players into the opt out servers.
The answer is simple, even though xbox and PCs have the same input options and ability it is based on nothing else than an exclusive elitist mentality of the xbox fanboy community, which has been seen on these forums. The companies state they want a play anywhere title and crossplay, fair and equal treatment between platforms where they don't ask what platform they develop systems for. Yet they fear the rage of the xbox fanboys that reject the idea of a single community. It is why we have an xbox exclusive feature.
It is pure a business decision to exclude the PC community and the lack of commitment from Rare and Microsoft to follow through on their own principles.
@realstyli said in Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?:
I'm a controller player on PC.
I don't think this split is necessary.
There are some games that do it but they usually have a higher skill ceiling and difference between using K&M vs using a controller. SoT doesn't have headshots and it's pretty generous with hitboxes (hit reg issues aside) so aiming isn't really that much of an issue.
There are some things Rare could do to improve the experience but I don't think it's an inherent issue with the input method. Things such as increasing the ceiling for sensitivity and allowing more control over sensitivity in certain contexts - such as when using a map or when looking around while on the wheel.
Everything else I am pretty okay with. In some cases, such as with rumble or sailing the ship, it's even an advantage to use a controller (you can tell when the wheel is centred without the need to look at it, for instance).
I'm just not sure the numbers are there to support another split in the playerbase and we already know from these discussions that console players, for the most part, are unwilling to budge and allow PC controller players into the opt out servers.
We agree, but the moment you give that option in the console version, the PC version also deserves the same.
Xbox (PC + console + cloud) 💪🏻
@cotu42 You say they want fair and equal treatment. How is it fair and equal when PC players have extremely higher accuracy, better draw distance, faster loading times, 60fps (not even the X plays on 60fps lol), etc? Let me make this clear: Other games can do what you say. Sea of Thieves can't. In fact Sea of Thieves in one of the few games that PC players have huge advantages over Xbox players, hands down. So they should think twice before merging the communities and how this merge is going to be applied to the actual game. To throw wolves and kittens in the same cage and say "survive" is the easy part.
Draw distance is capped in Sea of Thieves so its the same regardless of PC or Xbox.
The only system that has a significant disadvantage towards load times is the Xbox One Original, everything else is the same pretty much across the board. The "FASTER" load times you speak of are tied to the SSD which is not exclusive to PC. PC's dont magically come with SSD's. We have to purchase the parts we want. You can buy an SSD for your xbox as many have already done. You can't use load times as an argument when your own community has SSD's themselves.
Frame Rates do not make you a better player or a worse player. It just doesn't. You have to be at a professional level of play for frames to even hinder your gameplay, and the sad part is, professionals wouldn't be hassling and complaining that the reason they lost was because of their frame rates. So if you are bad, then keep blaming your frame rates.
Can't argue input either because xbox has mouse and keyboard support.
This argument is not about fairness or anything, its just purely about PC vs Xbox. Majority of PC's aren't even big rigs, lots of players play on potatoes that are even worse then xbox. PC players do not have a huge advantage over xbox players, the difference is minimal and even less since they gave xbox M&K support.
To throw Pirates Legends into a cage with other Pirate Legend only to complain later "we were only pretending to be legends we want to be left alone" I mean its fine if you guys want to play pretend, by all means.
@xultanis-dragon Yeah I am bad because I was killed in a fight and got sunk in the black screen because the game failed to spawn me back, while I killed my opponent 2 times and he spawned back in 10 seconds. You guys aren't helping the game get better, if you like the game you should give more constructive feedback than "git gud". Realise that sometimes, good players get sunk and it's the game's fault. Deal with it and go on with your life.
@snikefriend said in Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?:
@cotu42 You say they want fair and equal treatment. How is it fair and equal when PC players have extremely higher accuracy, better draw distance, faster loading times, 60fps (not even the X plays on 60fps lol), etc? Let me make this clear: Other games can do what you say. Sea of Thieves can't. In fact Sea of Thieves in one of the few games that PC players have huge advantages over Xbox players, hands down. So they should think twice before merging the communities and how this merge is going to be applied to the actual game. To throw wolves and kittens in the same cage and say "survive" is the easy part.
Draw distance is equal regardless of device, it is by design hard coded. This was changed in the pre development stages of the game after it became apparent that high end PCs had an advantage.
Higher accuracy how exactly? I have a standard xbox controller or a mouse and keyboard which is both supported by xbox. The choice is identical, the sensitivity settings are identical and is exactly what an input based matchmaking system would address. Why is it limited to xbox?
Loading times is based on the harddrive you use, which can also on a xbox be a SSD which will make them match most high end PCs. You realize you can buy and attach one to your xbox, which many people have done. This is not a PC exclusive advantage.
Frames per second is the only discrepancy and is based on the inability to change graphics settings on an xbox. Yet there are huge differences between PCs as well, not everyone runs a top of the line graphics card. Additionally the next generation xbox will support 60 FPS according to the lead of Xbox and therefore that discrepancy is coming to xbox as well.
The fact that you attribute all these things to PC while ignoring the abilities and options for xbox users showcases my point. You are naive to believe that xbox users are all equals in terms of technology and that the differences are just with PC. The fact is that the more money someone spends the better their hardware will be, both for consoles and for PC. A xbox is just a computer that runs a different operating system.
Play on the minimum specs of an OG Xbox or the minimum specs on a computer and you have a disadvantage this is not a platform specific aspect of gaming. Spend more money on your setup and it will provide you with a smoother experience. You can upgrade your console to a later model and soon the next generation, upgrade your console with an external SSD drive or spend more money on your PC to buy better parts. Technology advancement is not something that Rare can control and it isn't limited to PC players. PC players have a larger range than the console market, but the price tag associated with it also is significantly more varied and more expensive at the high end.
You can compare a stock market xbox to a high end PC, but I can compare a stock market xbox to a stock minimum requirement spec laptop and the tables turn. Spend what you want or can, there is nothing wrong with a console. It is a good decent priced machine for what it delivers and provides you with a stable quality experience.
Rare did not stay true to their vision of a fair and equal treatment. Xbox users were given the option to play solely with controller users, while they did not provide that option to PC players. The other advantages you speak of still exist if you use a mouse and keyboard on a xbox, which is officially supported and yet they are required to play with PC players.
The whole point you try to push is voided by that fact, if it was machine versus machine... all xbox users including those on mouse and keyboard should be included in the opt out. If the issue is accuracy and input model differences PC players on a controller should be included in the opt out.
This is not a PC versus Xbox technical difference decision, it is a business model one. One driven by money and not by gameplay.
@snikefriend said in Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?:
@xultanis-dragon Yeah I am bad because I was killed in a fight and got sunk in the black screen because the game failed to spawn me back, while I killed my opponent 2 times and he spawned back in 10 seconds. You guys aren't helping the game get better, if you like the game you should give more constructive feedback than "git gud". Realise that sometimes, good players get sunk and it's the game's fault. Deal with it and go on with your life.
The exaggerations are the worst part of arguments like these.
PC players get black screen as well. I get black screen sometimes even with my PC. I friend just built a PC himself and even he gets black screen sometimes. Black screen is not exclusive to xbox. PC players do not spawn in 10 seconds either. The amount of time spent from dying to respawning is relatively the same give or take a second or 2. If your character model is loading in before you have control then you probably have an xbox one original, all I can say is buy an SSD if you don't like it.
PC players don't go around "hey man thats not fair, you have an SSD. I shouldn't have to play against you". We have the biggest disparity between hardware yet we never complain about it because we know we have a choice in the matter. Players with deep in the ground potato rigs will still go up against players with super rigs and we will play happily and without complaint.
The argument is flawed because PC players are treated as super 360 no scope gods with super rigs but we all understand that not every player can player at a high level of play, and majority of players don't have super rigs. They have computers that play games maybe at slightly above minimum settings??
Just saying, the game could do something to screw you. Its teleported me to islands when I've tried to mermaid back to my ship a few times, or like everyone else, sometimes getting black screened for 10 seconds, but I'm not going to sit here and say that the reason I lost was because someone had a better PC than me, or better frame rates than me.
@cotu42
You are the naive one here I believe. You want to believe things just to support Rare (I also support Rare and Sea of Thieves but, yes, it has its flaws, sorry). The draw distance is not equal between Xbox and PC, I don't know where did you get that but it certainly is not true as I am playing with my friend on PC and he can see stuff before I do. Xbox systems have predetermined specs and SSD is not included. So the answer "go buy an SSD" is of zero logic. It is a PC exclusive advantage.@xultanis-dragon
Next time this happens I'll make a recording and I'll show you that PC players can be back in the fight ultra fast while Xbox players can't. This is a core problem of the game since being in the fight and protecting your ship is the most important thing in this game. Yet Rare are still insisting on this logic of "go to the ferry of the damned and reload back in because why not". This gives PC players the advantage as they mostly use SSDs while Xbox's predetermined specs do not include an SSD. And Sea of Thieves is the only game (at least of the dosens of games that I've played) that SSD gives so much advantage to someone. So no, it is not our problem to fix but Rare's."PC players don't go around "hey man thats not fair, you have an SSD."
They chose to play in this environment. I chose to play on Xbox, so who cares?
How do I know they adjusted it because I followed the game development. You state they see it before you do, provide proof... render distance of ships and players is made identical. There is no way for me to boost it, even though my setup could easily handle it and it is something that I would adjust as it is better to see your foes come as soon as possible. When I call out a ship my xbox mates always are able to see them. Just think your mate has a sharp eye. I am pretty good at spotting a glimpse of a sail, but also have a xbox mate that spots things before I do.
Buying a SSD is the same requirement for PC as Xbox, check out the minimum specs and find out that SSD is not standard either. You want a basic versus basic comparison, then maybe not compare the extreme PC, this is not something most people own, to the basic xbox model. At most look at recommended settings if you don't want to spend more money? Btw. The next generation xbox will have a SSD as stock...
Isn't your argument unfair advantages that PC can hold. Yet this advantage is not exclusive to PC, I have multiple xbox players in my friends list that all have external SSD drives. An exclusive nature means it is not possible for the other, yet if you spend money you can get that advantage.
You are here heroing the xbox fanboy issue that I described. Instead of being objective and fair you are just busy with bashing PC users while ignoring facts. The fact is advantages are also visible between xbox users, it is a fact that you can use a mouse and keyboard and it is fact that you can use a SSD. The differences between xboxes is only going to grow with the new generation xbox in November.
Btw. Weren't you the one requesting for your PC friend to join the controller only servers? Yet here you are arguing with me why they should be excluded and showcasing why Rare and Microsoft made this business decision. The irony...
@CotU42 Why am I the one that needs to provide proof? You should provide proof for your facts too except if you work for Rare and actively developing the game. I spoke about draw distance. Not draw distance of a ship. Yes, at no point did he see a ship before I did, but other things, he did, including players on a ship, shipwrecks and stuff like that. As I said before (but it seems you don't want to understand it) the Xbox One comes with PREDETERMINED specs. Pcs don't. The Xbox One does not have ANY MODEL AT ALL that uses internal SSD drive, so what you are trying to describe about the requirements is irrelevant.
I did not come here to discuss any of it, you started this conversation. And yes, I want my friend to join controller only servers. How does this have anything to do with wether PC players should or should not match with Xbox players? Especially for SoT, I disagree with the developers' decision to put Xbox and PC together. However, this is their choice so instead of ranting in the forums like you do (your first message calls everyone who disagrees with you on this matter an 'xbox fanboy'), I came here to give my two cents and remind Rare of the input-based matchmaking that almost every other AAA game uses. I did not start a complaint of PC vs Xbox, you did by saying that Rare cares about equality between the two platforms. I will not be continuing this argument as we obviously have different opinions on this matter, but I'll just remind you that guys like you said that Rare would never implement Xbox only matchmaking, yet they did, and that effectively ends your 'points' in this argument.
I don't need to prove anything, I am not claiming an unfair advantage of render distance based on nothing. There is no option for render distance for a reason... it is the first option I change in any game to ensure I see as much as possible, it isn't there. If it is I will even support it being equalized even though I would want to increase it even more for my system.
You asked why we are denied access to controller servers, as I too would be willing to play with a controller, stock 360 xbox one, with friends that prefer that option and disable my keyboard and mouse. It is because of you and others from the console community that need to keep dragging in the hardware options that are available to PC players into the conversation, keep on denying the variety and options for xbox and claim it isn't fair. Also you don't compare it to standard average PCs, no you look at the high end. You don't consider the next generation xbox that will come in November either. Keep your blinders on, be naive what dedicated console players are willing to buy and use, just because you refuse to buy it. It is fair for a xbox one x with SSD to face you, but a PC with one... ooh no! Which is also just a harddrive that we have to buy and install, there is no standard setup... we purchase every single component of the PC and spend more money on it than you as a trade off to get better machines.
It isn't fair to ask you to buy something, but it is fair that a what 500 euro setup gets compared one on one with a 2000 euro one and it shouldn't be better in every single way? I don't care what you use, but to claim that you can have the same performance while spending 25% of the money... is not realistic and my system is outdated already after a couple of years, yet still has to keep me going for another 6 at a minimum. Go compare your machine to one in its price class on the PC end if you want a more fair comparison. Yes, PC can be far better than a console, but a console can also already become better with some more money. In November you get a far significantly higher end machine available to you as well... yet let's not talk about that right, it is a xbox so all is going to be fine.
This is what drove Microsoft and Rare to exclude us, they don't want to lose the money you bring in. The diehard xbox fanboys that need to know they are meeting people exclusively on xbox machines, even if those machines are enhanced and upgraded with SSD drives or a new version or even the new generation that is coming up.
You are here, being a xbox fanboy hero that caused the exclusive nature of the controller only servers. The irony is so apparent that you yourself are showcasing why your friend is denied access to the controller servers. You are arguing that it is unfair for them to join and that is exactly what the developers and Microsoft heard. Their precious xbox community is not ready for a true single joint community.
Developers cannot stop people to upgrade, spend money on their own personal machines and as long as people like you are unwilling to accept the reality that a closed system will never beat an open systems options... it will cause a divide in the community. If your friends are on the other side of the fence, you are the ones holding that fence gate closed. We are waiting to be let in.
@cotu42 You have no idea what you're talking about. I have supported cross play in literally every other game that I play. I am happy to cross-play and have never disabled this option in any of the games that I play. That is, because I have never felt that I can't compete with PC players. Gears, Halo Wars, Fortnite, Cod, Rocket League are only some of the games that come to my mind, that I happily play with PC players. However, in SoT, it is poorly implemented, core mechanics of the game are built in way that gives PC players an advantage. Your PC fanboysm won't allow you to see that some of the PC advantages break this game and that's the ONLY reason they implemented this setting after the game has launched. Keep saying whatever you want to yourself, but Microsoft as a whole is moving to the unified ecosystem, and most Xbox players including me have no problems with it despite what you want to believe. However, this game in multiple ways gives PC players an advantage and that's why they had to implement this option. Anyway that's it for me here, there is no point in continuing this argument because it moves away from the initial point of this post.
Yet you are failing to understand the answer to your question. I am here explaining that your inability to accept the fact that PCs can have better setups is why your friend is denied.
The fact is simple that the difference between hardware is not something exclusive for PCs and those that purchased the upgrades for their xbox are not that bothered by the differences. Those that buy the new generation will even out perform many PC players.
You are showcasing why the xbox fanboys pushed that controller input preference is restricted to Xbox consoles only. Keep dragging in how a better machine does better... We know it, we don't complain about it in the PC community.
You claim to support crossplay, then you have to maybe adjust your view and start accepting that your system is not anymore the top of the line. You claim to not have issues with the other games, but isn't that mainly due to input based matchmaking? Sea of Thieves never had this option and so how do you know it is that bad if you even that out.
We never had the chance, the developers never gave us the chance because you and others keep dragging in the idea it never can be fair enough as long as you meet PC players regardless of input.
You are here showcasing the argument that others brought up against your friend joining the controller only servers. You are here providing your own argument of why he shouldn't join you... it wouldn't be fair? You call me elitist, but I was one of the voices that requested to have it not be platform specific so you and your friend would have been able to play together.
@snikefriend said in Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?:
@cotu42
You are the naive one here I believe. You want to believe things just to support Rare (I also support Rare and Sea of Thieves but, yes, it has its flaws, sorry). The draw distance is not equal between Xbox and PC, I don't know where did you get that but it certainly is not true as I am playing with my friend on PC and he can see stuff before I do. Xbox systems have predetermined specs and SSD is not included. So the answer "go buy an SSD" is of zero logic. It is a PC exclusive advantage.Like he said, the draw distance is the same, its capped. Everyone knows this.
SSD is not PC exclusive, we have to buy that and not everyone has an SSD drive. Do you know what exclusive means?
@xultanis-dragon
Next time this happens I'll make a recording and I'll show you that PC players can be back in the fight ultra fast while Xbox players can't. This is a core problem of the game since being in the fight and protecting your ship is the most important thing in this game. Yet Rare are still insisting on this logic of "go to the ferry of the damned and reload back in because why not". This gives PC players the advantage as they mostly use SSDs while Xbox's predetermined specs do not include an SSD. And Sea of Thieves is the only game (at least of the dosens of games that I've played) that SSD gives so much advantage to someone. So no, it is not our problem to fix but Rare's.SSD is not PC exclusive. A lot of Xbox players have SSD and they have SSD specifically made for Xbox. The strange thing here is that you are talking about hardware disparity but there is significant hardware disparity among the xbox community and you guys never talk about it AT ALL.
Xbox One X is far surperior to its counter parts yet no one says anything about it. The only system that is detrimentally out classed is the Xbox One Original but again, you don't see any issues among xbox because its not about any actual "disparity", its the belief that PC is just inherently better when thats not true. PC is just hardware type and can fluctuate between potato to awesomeness. Except not everyone has the money for awesomeness, we mostly have things that are slightly above potato which would be considered baked potato class??
If you are so against SSD's then why aren't you making a thread demanding that Rare separate Xbox's into separate servers?? Again you are ignoring the disparity between the consoles themselves and then ignoring the fact that a lot of players have SSD's on their xbox.
"PC players don't go around "hey man thats not fair, you have an SSD."
They chose to play in this environment. I chose to play on Xbox, so who cares?
Yeah you chose to play xbox but you are playing in the same exact environment I am, you just for some reason ignoring it? Is this your defense?? As long as you don't acknowledge it it doesn't exist??
That is, because I have never felt that I can't compete with PC players. Gears, Halo Wars, Fortnite, Cod, Rocket League are only some of the games that come to my mind, that I happily play with PC players. However, in SoT, it is poorly implemented, core mechanics of the game are built in way that gives PC players an advantage.
Are you kidding me?? You believe that CoD and fortnite is better optimized then SoT for crossplay?? Yup youre trolling, if not then you are completely fanboying, or whatever it is you are doing because this makes completely ZERO sense. Those games have headshots and mitigating damage, and limb to body shots and you believe that those are better balanced for PC vs Console cross play then SoT???????
Yeah, you are definitely trolling.
@xultanis-dragon said in Why doesn't this game support input-based matchmaking?:
Are you kidding me?? You believe that CoD and fortnite is better optimized then SoT for crossplay?? Yup youre trolling, if not then you are completely fanboying, or whatever it is you are doing because this makes completely ZERO sense. Those games have headshots and mitigating damage, and limb to body shots and you believe that those are better balanced for PC vs Console cross play then SoT???????
Yeah, you are definitely trolling.
As long as I don't get rekt behind a loading screen every time I am dying, all these games I mentioned are better optimized than SoT. Simple as that. I won't argue with the rest of your claims because as I said, I'm done with the PC vs Xbox debate here.
Wait, so when you get stuck behind a loading screen and then die and that is somehow PC players fault? How is it a PC players fault that you got stuck behind a loading screen? How are you only dying to PC players when stuck behind a loading screen as well?? You do know that makes no sense right? If you get stuck behind a loading screen you die to anyone.
You might be done with the debate but you still ignore the disparity between the consoles themselves and then even between the players who have SSD's for their consoles vs those who don't. So thats a 2 fold disparity. Graphics are better on the Xbox one X aswell I believe. So again, you might be done with the debate but thats probably because you keep getting called out on how shenanigans your argument is.
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