PVP Server Alliance Exploit

@lord-spark-0 sagte in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

Its hilarious that for years the PvP crowd accuse the PvE crowd of cheating with alliance servers.

Now.. the PvP crowd are cheating with alliance servers..

I'm pretty sure it ain't the PvP crowd cheesing now...

Some of us knew this would be a problem on Insiders. Rare ignored it..

Be careful my friend, what ever is said in insiders should stay there. You signed a NDA.

[...] this mode is going to kill normal adventure mode [...]

Chill. This new season and update isn't even a full week old yet. It's a new core mechanic added. It's the hot new s***. It will calm down to a normal level in a few weeks.

This isn't PvEvP. This is PvP. Thats all anyones been talking about.

And last seasons were only PvE, and that is also okay. What's bad about adding stuff and core mechanics to the game?

@lem0n-curry said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

Its hilarious that for years the PvP crowd accuse the PvE crowd of cheating with alliance servers.

Now.. the PvP crowd are cheating with alliance servers..
[ ... ]

Or maybe they're people who can't fight 1v1 well but want the cosmetics in an easy way. Doubt standard PvP players want to be known for "fighting " / cheating and winning in a 1v4 matches.

The PvP crowd are the ones that feel the need to use animation cancelling and double gunning to get an edge over the rest of the players to win..
So I don't doubt they would be involved in setting up server take overs for this.
Griefers like the grief. It happened a lot in the last days of Arena.. I came across teaming ships. Been spawn-camped for lul's..

@funnyqchen said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 sagte in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

Its hilarious that for years the PvP crowd accuse the PvE crowd of cheating with alliance servers.

Now.. the PvP crowd are cheating with alliance servers..

I'm pretty sure it ain't the PvP crowd cheesing now...

The PvP crowd are the ones double-gunning and spawn camping.. They cheese the game before this mode. Why would you think any different?
They teamed up and cheesed in the last days of Arena, all the same..

Some of us knew this would be a problem on Insiders. Rare ignored it..

Be careful my friend, what ever is said in insiders should stay there. You signed a NDA.

Im not breaking NDA by pointing out to Rare this problem that now appears in Retail. The update is done and out. The NDA is for content/material the public hasn't seen yet..

[...] this mode is going to kill normal adventure mode [...]

Chill. This new season and update isn't even a full week old yet. It's a new core mechanic added. It's the hot new s***. It will calm down to a normal level in a few weeks.

And already people with queues that claim 2-4 mins are at 20 mins.. etc etc..
So what do you think is going to happen to it down the line, like you said?
Especially if people are on large winning streaks and the MMR can't find players to match with them?

This isn't PvEvP. This is PvP. Thats all anyones been talking about.

And last seasons were only PvE, and that is also okay. What's bad about adding stuff and core mechanics to the game?

I would disagree. Nobody on the forums asked for Adventures to be made. Rare just did that. The last PvEvP update (which was a good one) was the FoF. And, that was largely recycled content. Most content is recycled, which turn people away from the game..

Again, who cares about the past. This is a fresh update and this isn't a PvEvP update. This is strictly PvP.

@lord-spark-0

Then black-screen teleport crews that board the invading ship that aren't from the crew being invaded. The system already knows how to prevent reviving for boarders, so it seems like they should be able to build an anti-boarding system for these scenarios with that framework.

The bottom line is that when you invade and matchmaking places you against a defender, the game should prevent surrounding crews from interacting with this battle at least for situations were other crews were already present in the area at the start of invasion. These restrictions should apply to crews elsewhere on the map who are in an alliance with the defending crew as well so that an allied ship isn't tempted to go and rescue their alliance from one of these battles.

@lord-spark-0 sagte in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

The PvP crowd are the ones double-gunning and spawn camping.. They cheese the game before this mode. Why would you think any different?
They teamed up and cheesed in the last days of Arena, all the same..

Double-gunning ain't cheesing, spawn camping isn't without consequence if you don't aim to sink the enemy, or siphon supplies and then sink the enemy.

I played Arena the last days, I can say from experience it wasn't the PvP crowed who cheesed there...

Im not breaking NDA by pointing out to Rare this problem that now appears in Retail. The update is done and out. The NDA is for content/material the public hasn't seen yet..

Well that front has @xshirahx already covered ;)

And already people with queues that claim 2-4 mins are at 20 mins.. etc etc..
So what do you think is going to happen to it down the line, like you said?
Especially if people are on large winning streaks and the MMR can't find players to match with them?

Well, if this update will die and no one plays this mode anymore, then everyone will go back to business as usual, no?

I would disagree. Nobody on the forums asked for Adventures to be made. Rare just did that. The last PvEvP update (which was a good one) was the FoF. And, that was largely recycled content. Most content is recycled, which turn people away from the game..

Again, who cares about the past. This is a fresh update and this isn't a PvEvP update. This is strictly PvP.

Ho, you're disregarding a lot of new content here. Sea Forts, Shrines and Vaults, Lost Shipment, Pirates Life and many more things.

Though those weren't really my type since I lean more towards PvP, this stuff wasn't just recycled and defiantly weren't bad. And all those things were catered towards the PvE crowed.

@artie said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@papatankers2041 said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

Your posts read more like anti-sweat ramble. Calling pvp crowd sealclubbers and calling them out for trying to replicate cod and halo playstyles. That comes straight from alliance server enjoyers handbook.

As typical, when one has zero contribution to a discussion the personal attacks come out.

The fact you cannot see the difference between the two circumstances you describe is a problem. Usually from people who don't respect others' rights to consent. If someone doesn't want to play with you... yet you force yourself repeatedly upon them... Then someone is crossing a line. Sink and move on. Now the developers now have coded that into the game since people simply couldn't behave in SOT.

Most of your argument has been about that people should be able to enjoy the game exactly how they would like because they paid money for it. In the context I explained it to you, there is essentialy zero difference.

Actually believe it or not, vast majority of people that were wintrading in last months of arena were alliance servers. They always went to coreners of the map and started farming cannonballs at eachothers boats. I beelined for them every time when wintrading started happening and was met with private messages to leave them alone.
Most pvp-ers already had the commendations before the arena closure announcement was made or were already progressed really far with them. There is essentialy zero reason for them to wintrade.
I doupt hardcore pvp-ers would even be open for suggestion of bringing alliance into a fight to help them.

That being said on the first page I said that so far this season I have had 2 encounters where I have emerged against alliance and have to fight multiple opponents at the same time. Now I am 55 wins into the season and the number remains the same, so I might have blown the problem out of proportion. I don't know what the experience is for other people.

However I will still strongly stand by my statement that something should be done in order to make the system not exploitable. Because when something is exploitable, then history has shown that it will start getting exploited. It's only a matter of time.

@xshirahx said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 said
"Im not breaking NDA by pointing out to Rare this problem that now appears in Retail. The update is done and out. The NDA is for content/material the public hasn't seen yet.."

Incorrect. The NDA covers all experiences in insider along with all information in insiders no matter if the content has been released or not.

I don't think you understand the nature of the NDA.
The NDA is to protect 'The Game' which is content available to Insiders.
This update has been 'released' and thus disclosed to the public. I can no longer be breaking a confidential agreement if I am referring to previous events that have already been disclosed.

If I am, show me in writing where in the NDA I that referring to what I have said here is breaking the NDA.

@funnyqchen said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 sagte in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

The PvP crowd are the ones double-gunning and spawn camping.. They cheese the game before this mode. Why would you think any different?
They teamed up and cheesed in the last days of Arena, all the same..

Double-gunning ain't cheesing, spawn camping isn't without consequence if you don't aim to sink the enemy, or siphon supplies and then sink the enemy.

Yes it is. That's the very nature of why they do it. To Cheese and exploit the system by cancelling the animation and thus having quicker shots on their opponents.. duhh

I played Arena the last days, I can say from experience it wasn't the PvP crowed who cheesed there...

So have I. And all I saw was cheesing by double gunners and griefers. I got 100% in Arena..

Im not breaking NDA by pointing out to Rare this problem that now appears in Retail. The update is done and out. The NDA is for content/material the public hasn't seen yet..

Well that front has @xshirahx already covered ;)

A mod that doesn't understand the NDA isn't a problem. The content has been disclosed. If I am referring to testing that has been concluded and that content has been released to the public, that content is not longer under non-disclosure. Rare released that version to Retail. If I am saying we warned Rare during the testing after we have been released to Retail.. its fair game...

And already people with queues that claim 2-4 mins are at 20 mins.. etc etc..
So what do you think is going to happen to it down the line, like you said?
Especially if people are on large winning streaks and the MMR can't find players to match with them?

Well, if this update will die and no one plays this mode anymore, then everyone will go back to business as usual, no?

Back to business? Perhaps. The player numbers were in decline prior to the update. People are bored.

I would disagree. Nobody on the forums asked for Adventures to be made. Rare just did that. The last PvEvP update (which was a good one) was the FoF. And, that was largely recycled content. Most content is recycled, which turn people away from the game..

Again, who cares about the past. This is a fresh update and this isn't a PvEvP update. This is strictly PvP.

Ho, you're disregarding a lot of new content here. Sea Forts, Shrines and Vaults, Lost Shipment, Pirates Life and many more things.

Though those weren't really my type since I lean more towards PvP, this stuff wasn't just recycled and defiantly weren't bad. And all those things were catered towards the PvE crowed.

Pirate's Life are TT's. And I agree that TT's should be its own thing but it does break away from the PvEvP gameplay that the sandbox is about...

Vaults..Shrines...Seaforts on the other hand are PvEvP because like Voyages they add to the sandbox and at any moment in Adventure a pirate can live the pirates life....
So bad examples..

@xshirahx said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@xshirahx said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 said
"Im not breaking NDA by pointing out to Rare this problem that now appears in Retail. The update is done and out. The NDA is for content/material the public hasn't seen yet.."

Incorrect. The NDA covers all experiences in insider along with all information in insiders no matter if the content has been released or not.

I don't think you understand the nature of the NDA.
The NDA is to protect 'The Game' which is content available to Insiders.
This update has been 'released' and thus disclosed to the public. I can no longer be breaking a confidential agreement if I am referring to previous events that have already been disclosed.

If I am, show me in writing where in the NDA I that referring to what I have said here is breaking the NDA.

If you for example state "x happened with this update on insiders" then you are indeed breaking your NDA and you're the one who have misunderstood something. Any and all things you experience on insiders are under NDA no matter if the content you had said experience with has been released or not.

Incorrect.
If you had a client as a lawyer, and signed an NDA. And the originator of that NDA decided to go to the media and talk exactly about what is described in the NDA. That NDA is null and void..

So content that appears in Retail that appeared exactly in Insiders is no longer subject to an NDA. If I talked about X that isn't in Retail but was in Insiders, you would be correct. But that hasn't happened.

If I said we warned Rare that Alliance servers were a problem in Insiders, and they released the game, and we see exactly that problem.. that doesn't break an NDA...

Thanks for coming out.

@xshirahx said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 Oh it does. What you or anyone else said or gave as feedback on insiders is still under NDA. You saying "I'm seeing an issue with alliance servers" doesn't break the NDA. You saying "We said on insiders that this is a problem" is breaking the NDA. See the difference here?

I don't see the difference...

I can see you edited the post earlier...

Then putting the same thing, in quotes, in this reply..

What are you protecting?

Are you not guilty of the same thing?

The NDA agreement from 2017 is a little bit too broad since there are only 2 paragraphs on specifically 'feedback' and the second one says Microsoft doesn't consider ideas/feedback confidential information.

@lord-spark-0 said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@xshirahx said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 Oh it does. What you or anyone else said or gave as feedback on insiders is still under NDA. You saying "I'm seeing an issue with alliance servers" doesn't break the NDA. You saying "We said on insiders that this is a problem" is breaking the NDA. See the difference here?

I don't see the difference...

I can see you edited the post earlier...

Then putting the same thing, in quotes, in this reply..

What are you protecting?

Are you not guilty of the same thing?

The NDA agreement from 2017 is a little bit too broad since there are only 2 paragraphs on specifically 'feedback' and the second one says Microsoft doesn't consider ideas/feedback confidential information.

It's best to just leave it be and move on. There is nothing to gain by arguing.

So, about them server alliances...

@grog-minto I have made this commitment. There's not going to be enough engagement at every ship type so I purposely lose quickly (firebombs) and give free rep to whoever, so we can match again and etcetera ad nauseam.

@pithyrumble said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

Tools not rules, this isn't arena. You're in Adventure now.

Remember all those times you sank someone that didn't want to fight. Karma.

The devs put in systems to sort solo sloopers and duo sloopers for fair fighting.

I agree with the whole Tools not rules but if people are gonna just form alliances to 5v1 ships, then unfortunately people will stop using the system altogether and go back to pvping the old fashioned way.

That means chasing you the entire length of the map like the old days.

They should disable the ability to matchmake whilst in an alliance.

Or … if you are in an alliance and you all have opted to battle your entire alliance enters battle against their alliance.

@lord-spark-0 said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

Yes it is. That's the very nature of why they do it. To Cheese and exploit the system by cancelling the animation and thus having quicker shots on their opponents.. duhh

Weapon swap timing is hard-coded now. Besides that, you double gun to have an edge over others in higher ranges. That's just legit and okay.

So have I. And all I saw was cheesing by double gunners and griefers. I got 100% in Arena..

Well, I and others just experienced teamer everywhere. Like other have sated as well in this thread.

A mod that doesn't understand the NDA isn't a problem. The content has been disclosed. If I am referring to testing that has been concluded and that content has been released to the public, that content is not longer under non-disclosure. Rare released that version to Retail. If I am saying we warned Rare during the testing after we have been released to Retail.. its fair game...

@xshirahx said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

@lord-spark-0 You had a Rare employee clarify for you what the NDA entails in the post right above yours. Arguing isn't going to change facts. Just stick to the actual NDA moving forward, please and thank you.

Back to business? Perhaps. The player numbers were in decline prior to the update. People are bored.

And a ton came back who were frustrated by the lack of PvP content. How about we wait and see how this will play out instead of painting the devil on the wall already?

Pirate's Life are TT's. And I agree that TT's should be its own thing but it does break away from the PvEvP gameplay that the sandbox is about...

Vaults..Shrines...Seaforts on the other hand are PvEvP because like Voyages they add to the sandbox and at any moment in Adventure a pirate can live the pirates life....
So bad examples..

Not bad at all. This all wasn't just recycled stuff it was new and freh content.
While nearly everyone uses the war-map right now, if this update calms down a ton of people will also let themself just invaded. You can do that right now aswell. This new update is in normal map. Just as PvEvP as everything else, just more PvP leaning this time.

@lord-spark-0 Just stop lol. You're making yourself look quite foolish. It isn't hard to understand that anything regarding insider testing is strictly NDA. Do not discuss it, period - released or unreleased.

For reference and to try and keep things topical.. I spawned into a match and before I emerged from the water my opponent was sunk. As I emerged I see I am at reapers hideout with a gally and sloop (all food lights) sitting there parked. Could have been an alliance effort. I turned round quick and booked it to sanctuary for an easy turn in as another sloop tailed me the whole way passing an empty daggertooth.

@lord-spark-0
"Now.. the PvP crowd are cheating with alliance servers.."

dude, its the same old alliance PvE lords that have to do this because they are afraid of a fair fight. Its not the "PvP" crowd. Its the same crowd as before, just doing PvP unfiarly this time and now affecting other players game experience while doing so...

I've also had a couple of fights where when we invade, someone is already being chased by another ship in the adventure.

Maybe it would be worth it to try to keep invaders out till there are no ships at a close proximity? Its a bit unfair to invade someone and then gang up on them with 2 ships.

I also still feel like you should only get rewarded streak bonus if you sink someone in the match making.

Streak being rewarded for EVERYONE involved in the sinking is a bit silly, and only encourages unfair play in this "balances skill based" match making.

I agree going out of bounds should still give some amount of rep. 2x in a 2 hour session I spawned into a match with no visible vessel. Watched from the map as its figure moved towards me. Reached me and nothing. No islands or rocks to hide. It kept going and eventually went out of bounds. Happened some 30-40 minutes apart.

@jester1027
I am pretty sure the reasoning for both boats to get rep is n faction is based off last hit. If ship A is the one being invaded and ship B is the siding ship and ship C is the invader. If ship B is the one that causes ship C to sink then Ship B would gain the sink rep and ship A would get the win rep for the battle. I think that's how it works.

@cpt-redmane a dit dans PVP Server Alliance Exploit :

As far as i'm aware, NDAs cease to be in effect once something is public knowledge.

Indeed. You can speak about a feature as implemented in retail. What you cannot do is discuss its different iterations on Insider (which isn't made public with release) and what has been said on Insider forum (which isn't made public with release).

@jester1027 if they are defending and both get a hit on the enemy ship it seems fair to me not really an exploit

@jester1027 a dit dans PVP Server Alliance Exploit :

@mrat13 said in PVP Server Alliance Exploit:

Pretty certain this mechanic follows the "tools not rules" philosophy. Same as server hopping Reapers greifing Tall Tale ships to get some sort of kick out of it. Rare won't do anything to stop it, because "tools not rules". And now maybe PvPers will understand where PvEers have been coming from...

The two situations are not the same. One is a natural part of the game and the other is a flat out exploit.

I'd argue it is "cheating" only if they alliance from outside the game (i.E from discord or something)

Teaming up to join forces against a common foe is a very Sea-of-Thieve-y thing to do imo, if the alliance is "organic" (i.e occurs naturally within the game)

I'd even think they were aware of this, and of the fact that "streaks" are not compatible with an ELO system, and they designed the "10 streak" achievement to encourage that behaviour maybe