Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium

  • @likavoss said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear no one is saying you’re not entitled to your voice. People are calling out it’s not “sleazy” or unethical though. But definition that determines that the rules of the transaction are favoured, adjusted, or changed to benefit one party. That isn’t the case here.

    If you don’t like it you’re correct to voice your opinion. Just as people are who support MTX. I do take issue with how you indicated something you don’t agreement with is unethical, when it simply isn’t.

    If you went to purchase ancient coins and you got 599 instead of the 1249 advertised, that would be a poor practice. But all consumers are well aware of the pricing structure, currency, and product prior to making a transaction.

    It's unethical because they are forcing people do buy things they don't want (leftover currency) to get what they do.

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    Then why can't you convert in smallest possible denomination? Because they want you to buy extra worthless currency.

    Yeah, I talked about that already in a previous post. =)

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)

    Here's your choice:

    • Play the game the same way you always have
    • Buy the new extra stuff added in the cash shop
    • Stomp off like a whiny child

    Your pick.

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    Sometimes, microtransactions are necessary. No one can be faulted for adding honest microtransactions to a finished game (though it is debatable if SoT is a finished product.) That said, Rare takes advantage of some quirks in math and in human nature.

    (By the way, things can be overpriced without being immoral. That ship set could cost $4000, it wouldn't be immoral , just overpriced.)

    One cannot buy things using their actual money. No, first you must pay the middleman. You can only buy things using Ancient Coins. This is a classic scam. Say you're sold on getting a parrot (edit: and the garbage that goes with it), so you head to the emporium. Your 2 cheapest options are 150 coins for $2, and 550 for $6. There is no clean way to get the 650 you need. You'll have 50 left over, which serves 2 purposes for Rare: First, you paid more than you should. Second, you've got these extra ancient coins just sitting there. Doing nothing. It's not enough to buy anything, but why let those coins go to waste? Why not buy a few more and grab another item, just so you don't have any coins left over? The 650 for a pet is just an example, there's countless instances this will occur, now and in future batches of microtransactions.

    If Rare was being honest, they wouldn't have a middleman. You would just buy your creepy pets directly with real money. Or, if a middleman really was necessary (it's not), why not have smallest denomination conversion? 1 cent for 1 coin, so you always buy exactly what you need. But Rare didn't do this, because if they manipulate you into having extra coins, they can get more of your money.

    There's also limited time deals. You better buy this monkey now, dear consumer, or it will cost you more later. Most people already know why this is a scam, so we'll move right along to the Magnum Opus of scammy microtransactions: Pets.

    Virtual pets are disgusting. They are the epitome of manipulating people to buy cr*p. They take a genuine, real life affection for pets that people naturally have, and perv** it to some sickening connection between a consumer and a product. The best way to get people to buy garbage is to get them emotionally invested in it. This practice is worse than lootboxes. I'm sure you'll be able to buy little hats for your monkey and have your parrot do a cute dance soon enough. All to get the consumer subconsciously invested in, and thus paying for, a virtual item designed to feign love.

    If you look at reddit, you'll see posts and art people have dedicated to their pets. On day one, people are already emotionally invested in them, and making the post will only make them more invested. These posts also encourage others to purchase a pet, or get more invested in the one they already have. And then, when Rare adds in whatever new garbage you can get for your pets, people will buy it because of their investment. Not only that, but paying for something will also get people more invested in whatever they bought, in a subconscious desire to justify their purchase. It's a self reinforcing cycle; If you devote time and money to X, you become more invested in X. If you are invested in X, you will devote more time and money to X, and so on. Rare knows this, and now they've got a good chunk of players emotionally, and hence, financially.

    I understand microtransactions in SoT. I'm not opposed to the idea. But this is morally reprehensible. Rare can make extra money without taking advantage of you. Does a company that tries to manipulate you deserve your money?

    You have some valid points but not everyone who buys pets fits your mold. I for one have greatly enjoyed the game and so feel fine purchasing the largest ancient coin bundle as a thank you and showing I want more SoT. I only bought one pet and I have no affection towards it. I simply enjoy more "life" on the ship than what is usually a lifeless husk. If some cool cosmetic comes out in the future then I have plenty of coins I can use. I am honestly surprised it took this long to release any microtransactions. Look at gears of war, Just came out and its littered with them. Also about the game being "finished" it was always intended to be a service based game and will never be "finished" until its dead.

  • @lethality1 said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)

    Here's your choice:

    • Play the game the same way you always have
    • Buy the new extra stuff added in the cash shop
    • Stomp off like a whiny child

    Your pick.

    Why are you defending the game for this? It is obviously an anti-consumer practice to have a middleman currency. Why can't we demand better?

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @lethality1 said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)

    Here's your choice:

    • Play the game the same way you always have
    • Buy the new extra stuff added in the cash shop
    • Stomp off like a whiny child

    Your pick.

    Why are you defending the game for this? It is obviously an anti-consumer practice to have a middleman currency. Why can't we demand better?

    Believe it or not, I'm not defending the game. I'm trying to squelch rampant entitlement.

  • @lethality1 said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @lethality1 said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)

    Here's your choice:

    • Play the game the same way you always have
    • Buy the new extra stuff added in the cash shop
    • Stomp off like a whiny child

    Your pick.

    Why are you defending the game for this? It is obviously an anti-consumer practice to have a middleman currency. Why can't we demand better?

    Believe it or not, I'm not defending the game. I'm trying to squelch rampant entitlement.

    If a consumer has already purchased game and these changes were made after purchase, which for the majority they have, I wouldn't really call any opposition based on the 2 points of left over currency and the over priced ships hulls "entitled"

    Even if words like "shady" "scummy"
    "Low" etc are being used

  • Hombre

    I'd be a bit concerned though if rare needed to constantly test the act of purchasing by choosing to use ancient coins.

    The MTX concept has been around for well over a decade, to imply they used ancient coins because it's easier to test is just laziness and feels like them brushing it off on rares behalf in my view.

    All they literally had to do was put each item on the Microsoft store instead, you purchase there , get the license and it unlocks in your game, it's not difficult by today's standards.

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @likavoss I'm not talking about 0.99 price tags. I'm talking about sleazy bullsh*t like the third party currency, so you always pay extra. And we, as consumers, shouldn't roll over and take it. This is especially true because accepting mildy sleazy business like this opens the door for worse and worse practices. Look at how lootboxes developed.

    It's only deceptive if you look at the pet as what you are buying. Look at the currency as what you are buying: I spent €15, that got me however many coins. What I chose to do with them after that wasn't actually a purchase, the purchase was €15, that was what I was willing to spend and there was no change.

  • @troubled-cells

    Eh, it's just one possible reason.

    The main reason is what I said before. It's a marketing tactic. It's to entice you to come back now and then to check out the store. As long as the purchases are up front, I don't see anything wrong with it.

    They're not selling randomized loot, they didn't pull things from the game to sell back to you, you don't have to buy tiered items to get a special one at the end, etc

    "Hey, looks like you've got some coins left. Be sure to drop by again to see what new stuff we might have."

    I think that's pretty fair by marketing standards.

  • Hombre

    Nah I don't look at the currency like that.

    I see it more as I have to spend more than what is necessary in regards to the cosmetic price bracketing, not that oh I have some spare currency woop woop.

    You might argue that the difference is a small amount, but for people like myself on budgets most of the time, every nickel and dime matters, So on that occasion I think "ok I've saved , time to treat myself" this kind of manipulation comes across as insulting to myself and really does put me off.

    I wouldn't lean to it as being fair when the reality is it can be a lot fairer, and this is what I mean when I say rare can do better here.

    People like to mention the amount of goodwill rare has "built up" I don't see it like that, they are now where they actually should have been at release, that isn't good will.

  • @troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    I see it more as I have to spend more than what is necessary in regards to the cosmetic price bracketing

    None of it is necessary, it's completely voluntary.

    You might argue that the difference is a small amount, but for people like myself on budgets most of the time, every nickel and dime matters

    Fair comment on budget. But you are aware of the pricing structure prior to purchasing for both the ancient coin and the in-game denominations. Determine if the value offsets the cost/manipulative pricing strategy and make a decision that considers you're unique needs.

    People like to mention the amount of goodwill rare has "built up" I don't see it like that, they are now where they actually should have been at release, that isn't good will.

    This is completely irrelevant to the conversation on currency and pricing structure.

  • @troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    You might argue that the difference is a small amount, but for people like myself on budgets most of the time, every nickel and dime matters,

    Welcome to the club, bro. You think I eat ramen noodles on a regular basis cause it's such a hearty meal?

    I haven't bought anything from the Emporium yet cause I just got a $9.99, one month renewal card for XBox Live Gold, so my "fun money" is probably used up till my next paycheck.

    I guess the difference is that I don't really see it as just buying a pet or emotes. I figure I'm giving Rare $20 or so to support the ongoing life of the game; an investment to support a game I love and play regularly.

    The good will people talk about (something I don't really go in on), I think is mostly based around the fact that when Rare released the game and people found it lacking, they delayed the store and focused on free content. Which is a lot more than most game companies will do these days.

    It may be the bare minimum, but sadly, even that puts them ahead of the curve right now.

    Personally, I hold no great loyalty to Rare. They've treated me right so far, and haven't crossed any lines from my perspective. But I hold no delusions that they couldn't some day.

    If they've crossed a line for you, then you'll have to act accordingly. But I'm still onboard for now.

  • @likavoss said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    I see it more as I have to spend more than what is necessary in regards to the cosmetic price bracketing

    Not of it is necessary, it's completely voluntary.

    I think you missed the point there pal, yes a purchase is voluntary, but if I make a purchase I'm still effectively forced to purchase more than I need to be purchasing in the majority of cases.

    You might argue that the difference is a small amount, but for people like myself on budgets most of the time, every nickel and dime matters

    Fair comment on budget. But you are aware of the pricing structure prior to purchasing for both the ancient coin and the in-game denominations. Determine if the value offsets the cost/manipulative pricing strategy and make a decision that considers you're unique needs.

    I would then refer you back to my previous criticisms which are fairer for the consumer.

    People like to mention the amount of goodwill rare has "built up" I don't see it like that, they are now where they actually should have been at release, that isn't good will.

    This is completely irrelevant to the conversation on currency and pricing structure.

    May be to you , but I've seen many people on this forum argue the point of "good will" and that "now's time to pay up" because of it , so I disagree and say it is relevant as part of the bigger picture.

  • Hombre

    But this is what I mean about the release content or lack thereof, and people perceiving it as good will when they decide to add content and delay the store.

    I don't see it as good will, when rare was the one that F'd up day one in a big way, they weren't doing me a favour by adding content, but instead catching up on what really should have already been there.

    If anything I the consumer has shown good will by sticking with them for it, not the other way around.

    I'm going to continue to see how this plays out, but I'm sticking to my guns, they ain't getting a single purchase out of me until they either get rid of the excess currency or abolish the currency all together.

    I even find myself playing the game less now because of this and a few other changes which I can't support.

    I don't want to walk out on this game, but unfortunately the first few steps are in that direction because I would rather stand by what I believe.

  • @troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    I think you missed the point there pal,

    It's too bad you start out this way. You've got some good insights and some valid supporting comments, but you lost me with your opening line. :)

  • @likavoss said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    I think you missed the point there pal,

    It's too bad you start out this way. You've got some good insights and some valid supporting comments, but you lost me with your opening line. :)

    I won't loose sleep over it, I'm not after people's validation.

    But for transparency sake, I feel you gave a response that answered a slightly different question and missed the context of the original.

  • @troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    But this is what I mean about the release content or lack thereof, and people perceiving it as good will when they decide to add content and delay the store.

    I don't see it as good will, when rare was the one that F'd up day one in a big way, they weren't doing me a favour by adding content, but instead catching up on what really should have already been there.

    I actually agree with you on this for the most part. It's why I don't really do the good will thing. It's less about doing us a favor by adding content and more about taking responsibility. And I think Rare has at least tried to do that to varying degrees of success depending on who you ask.

    That didn't earn my good will, but it did earn my respect, which is why I'm willing to give the Emporium a chance. The currency and pricey ship skin was enough to raise an eyebrow, but it's early days and I respect Rare enough to see where they go from here. Hopefully nothing happens to make me lose that respect.

    I'm going to continue to see how this plays out, but I'm sticking to my guns,

    And I, for one, am glad of that. While I may feel like some of the more critical players go a bit too far sometimes, I would never want them to leave.

    I recognize that overall I am a fairly easy to please person. Most stuff that bothers me, I just shrug off. I can take a hard line if I have to, but it takes a lot to get me to.

    So I'm glad that more critical types are around to point out things I might have glossed over initially.

    Hopefully the game doesn't change enough to make you leave. A game can't please everyone and some people are always going to be driven elsewhere to find games that cater to their tastes. But here's hoping Rare manages to keep us both happy in the end. =)

  • @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)

    This comment doesn't contribute any insightful or meaningful point of view, and starts down the path of insulting those who have a conflicting viewpoint.

    Please keep to the forum guidelines and keep the conversation moving in a positive and constructive direction.

    Thank you ;)

  • So I fully agree with you about the "middleman". I think it's obviously sneaky and a cr*ppy way to make sure you keep coming back.

    The obvious answer, don't buy a pet. But that's clearly beside the point of your post.

    My question for you, and I mean this in a genuine way; not a typical forum s**t talking kind of way.

    You said you understand the need for microtransactions - so if not pets. Do you have other ideas? That adds to the game value and doesn't tug at people's emotions in the way pets do. (maybe you don't and that's totally cool. I'm genuinely just curious because I can't really imagine anything else they could do other than general cosmetics which they're already doing) .

    Thanks for your thoughtful post!

    • Ol salty bones
  • @merlin257 Yeah, I've seen and thought of some cool stuff. Change the ship compass, give the ship an aura, customizable cannonballs (have a skull, or a coin, or an X on your cannonball.) Custom flags that you can make yourself. Buy the ability to name your ship. Customizable rowboat. There's a million cool things they could do.

  • @likavoss said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)

    This comment doesn't contribute any insightful or meaningful point of view, and starts down the path of insulting those who have a conflicting viewpoint.

    Please keep to the forum guidelines and keep the conversation moving in a positive and constructive direction.

    Thank you ;)

    It's actually very relevant to this conversation.

    Thanks. (;

  • @lethality1 said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @lethality1 said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:

    @mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)

    Here's your choice:

    • Play the game the same way you always have
    • Buy the new extra stuff added in the cash shop
    • Stomp off like a whiny child

    Your pick.

    Why are you defending the game for this? It is obviously an anti-consumer practice to have a middleman currency. Why can't we demand better?

    Believe it or not, I'm not defending the game. I'm trying to squelch rampant entitlement.

    Ah yes, the entitlement of wanting to be able to buy something directly without buying useless extra.

  • @wilbymagicbear that's awesome man! See I never thought of any of those but I totally agree. They fit the not having it be "pay to win" aspect, But they're interesting enough that I would surely consider it.

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