The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.

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    @they-sank I dont run from brigs in a sloop so not sure if this is true but I know they can easily outmaneuver. If sloops are slower against wind they are at an advantage if the enemy ship is directly chasing them though. Drop barrels or board the enemy/use eye of reach. 2 vs 3 isn't that unfair when one person can kill 4 people. You kill one and they are at a disadvantage already with a bigger ship to handle. run them close to islands so they hit ground. I feel like people dont use the tools they have and being chased gives you an edge already.

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    @betsill But the counter arguments I have seen is I lost so it must be unbalanced. My question to you is how do we really know when there aren't and hard stats?

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    @starquest said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    @betsill But the counter arguments I have seen is I lost so it must be unbalanced. My question to you is how do we really know when there aren't and hard stats?

    Numbers aren't as solid as you might think when it comes to determining various things. Data can be manipulated or misconstrued, for example.

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    @galactic-geek Not when it comes to programming, I'm talking about dev stats on ship speeds. They have set variables and we just dont know them. Some lose a fight in a sloop vs a gal and some win. I have come across many god awful players and I have seen some really great ones. Its just hard to balance systems when you add the human element and also teamwork. You could have two pro players who suck together. Go up against another pro player group who is great at communication and 9/10 the better communication usually rules the day. I'm a good player and really great with my group of friends as we know each other. I do well on crews with people I dont know but its definitely not as good. What happens if rare adds in chase cannons or other things that allow chasing ships chances to slow a fleeing ship? Sometimes running just isn't the best option unless you can juke them and go a different way while they try to readjust.

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    @starquest I don't think we really can, and that's why I made a post asking Rare to put out these stats. You can argue principles, like if the brig mobility is overall equal(taking pros and cons together) to the sloop then it's obviously unfair. When one ship is just a side grade mobility wise but that ship can have an entire extra player on board, 2 more cannons, and some other minor benefits like pilot being able to see someone climb up the ladder(something none of the other ships can do) you can see how this doesn't add up to a balanced ship system. If the brig is overall equal to the sloop then why would you ever use the sloop when you can use the brig and have the same overall mobility but + more?

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    @galactic-geek said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    @starquest said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    @betsill But the counter arguments I have seen is I lost so it must be unbalanced. My question to you is how do we really know when there aren't and hard stats?

    Numbers aren't as solid as you might think when it comes to determining various things. Data can be manipulated or misconstrued, for example.

    It(the subject matter) would be misconstrued FAR less than if you didn't have them.

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    @betsill Well I have always noticed the brig sinks much quicker, its easier to shoot a cannonball across deck and kill someone instantly. They can see ladders but I have been able to sneak aboard still, yeah they notice you and when they react your already on. I believe the brig ladder is also shorter and quicker to climb. The brig goes quick through the water but coasts for much longer and his a wider turn radius. I like the brig but it has cons too and duo brig is harder than duo sloop. Having an extra player doesn't guarantee success. I came to a skull fort with 2 brigs and a sloop that were in an alliance. My crew was in a brig, we were outnumbered 8 to 3 yet we sunk all 3 ships. I really think this game is more about individual player skill and teamplay than what tools we all have.

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    @starquest since the brig only has one lvl it does seem to sink slightly faster, but you also have the quickest bailing of any ship in the brig since the stair go straight down. IDK what the answer is. Personally I think that the smaller the ship the higher mobility total score it should have. I don't at all think that the ships should be side grades mobility wise.

    I really think this game is more about individual player skill and teamplay than what tools we all have.

    That's how virtually ever game works. The best players can use the worst tools and still beat the worst players best tools. You don't balance a game like that. If 2 different tools are put in the hands of 2 players with the same skill and one player wins %55-60+ of the time, then the tool is very likely a problem and should be adressed.

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    @betsill I understand that but this game has no gear upgrades or power upgrades on anything so balance is different. Being on a sloop is usually supposed to be the hard mode of the game so we already know its a weaker tool by design but is still an effective tool. Even if it were balanced to perfection then those weaker players would still say its unbalanced when they die to better players. This isn't a vacuum so perfectly testing this isn't so easy.

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    @starquest said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    @betsill I understand that but this game has no gear upgrades or power upgrades on anything so balance is different. Being on a sloop is usually supposed to be the hard mode of the game so we already know its a weaker tool by design but is still an effective tool.

    This doesn't need to be the case, and I think it shouldn't be. Obviously in a straight up fight the sloop is far weaker than the brig or galleon, but I don't think that it's compensated nearly enough in terms of mobility. Since it's going to lose almost every fight against equally skilled players then I should have at least close to that same ability to outrun/escape.

    Even if it were balanced to perfection then those weaker players would still say its unbalanced when they die to better players.

    Yeah, but you just ignore those players. If they can't make a case for why something is unbalanced(because it isn't in this hypothetical) then we shouldn't pay attention to them. Just because some people will complain about problems that don't exist doesn't mean that you shouldn't address problems that DO exist.

    This isn't a vacuum so perfectly testing this isn't so easy.

    Testing is incredibly difficult in this game, and that's why we need hard stats. Hard stats would let us understand our in game experience better(like ship speed. Is this ship really that much faster or was something else a factor?). Some things like ship controls are very intuitive, but some things are VERY much not(such as lack of headshot mult).

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    It's all about sail positioning, not just if your bow is into the wind. Sloop sails need to be set straight ahead, not even the least bit angled. Even if wind is coming at you from 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock and looks like you can catch a tad, don't. This is why it's called 'set for stoopid' as it's realistically the last thing you'd do irl. It also doesn't work like NOS. You notice gaining distance vs a galleon. Brig, not so much and this is where more crew for more tasks is a benefit. Take your eyes off the wind for a sec and it changes while you're looking at the helm or bailing and you're done. I usually won't adjust the sails in this situation and steer into the wind instead. At this point against a brig, the sloops nimbleness is a factor.
    But you are correct, it's not balanced. Intentionally. Think of the ships more like levels of difficulty. Easy = Galleon , Medium = Brig, Hard = Sloop.

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    I can verify this to be true. My brother and I were on a sloop and kept the ship in the wind so all times. A brigantine still caught us and sunk our ship. Problem is, I was trying to get the party flame achievement for my brother and they sunk our ship and ruined everything. Only by the grace of God we respawned at an island that I lit with the white flame of the fates. (I believe in God, FYI. No disrespect to any other people) I got the pink flame from dying by those idiots and found the lightning flame which are the most difficult flames to get. Lightning is the most difficult to get and the pink is difficult because you need to keep the rest on your ship.

    In real life, pirate ship were small and fast because most pirates didn’t sink ships. They would disable a ship and steal the loot off a ship, similar to the mechanics on “Assassins Creed Black Flag” the sloop should be the fastest ship since it can’t defend itself well. Also, I would like to see disabling abilities that can help slow down perusing ships so I can escape annoying unwanted chasers

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    @darpuhdarp Brigantine is meant to be faster, it has more sails and it's not too heavy. I unfortunately have to say that we'll have to all deal with it.

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    Ok, experienced player here who spends most of his sailing time on the brig so heres how the ship speeds work

    Going against the wind
    Galleon is the slowest
    Sloop is 2nd fastest
    Brig is fastest

    With the Wind
    Sloop is the slowest
    Brig is 2nd fastest
    Galleon is fastest

    the brig only feels faster with the wind due to its basic acceleration being through the roof, however its top speed cant actully match the 3 sail galleon plowing through at full speed.

    I do agree the sloop should be the fastest against the wind as in all situations in a sloop vs a brig the sloop is disadvantaged.

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    From agility point of view, I did some testing with all three ships..
    For timing purposes, I used a basic wallclock, so accuracy might not be what you'd like :D All numbers are in seconds and all actions have been done with one person only

    Turning wheel from far left to far right
    Sloop: 6, Brig: 10, Galleon: 15

    Raising any sail from full to none
    Sloop: 7, Brig: 10, Galleon: 12

    Turning the sail from far left to far right
    Sloop: 7, Brig: 12, Galleon: 17

    Raising the anchor
    Sloop: 8, Brig: 18, Galleon: 30

    Doing a 360 turn on spot
    Sloop: 40, Brig: 55, Galleon: 80

    Edit: my opinion about this is that a crew of 3 on brig can outmaneuver a solo sloop if everyone is in equal skill level, as a solo slooper can only perform one action at the time. Galleon's operations being so much slower, even 4 man crew would have trouble doing the tasks fast enough compared to a solo sloop.

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    @darpuhdarp said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    The sloop is not faster into the wind than the brigantine. I have been caught twice by a brig when sailing a sloop, and one of those chases the brigantine was much farther behind when I started fleeing.

    Yes it is faster into the wind. You got caught because you're a poor sailor.

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    @vin-delanos said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    @darpuhdarp said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    The sloop is not faster into the wind than the brigantine. I have been caught twice by a brig when sailing a sloop, and one of those chases the brigantine was much farther behind when I started fleeing.

    Yes it is faster into the wind. You got caught because you're a poor sailor.

    the brig is slightly faster Even if you're holding the sail on the sloop.

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    @l-mrmoonlight-l said in The Brigantine is Faster Into the Wind Than the Sloop. It's Not Balanced.:

    the brig is slightly faster Even if you're holding the sail on the sloop.

    Then I must be encountering nothing but trash crews, because I always outrun them.

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    all this would be solved easily if someone recorded a clip with a brig and sloop having the sails identically angled (either side) and go against the wind side by side :P