Since when is "getting good" needed to enjoy a game?

  • @baftnation what part of "no joke" did you not understand?

  • @x-crowheart-x I totally agree with you. But when we try to please everyone we end up not liking anyone. When I see these feedbacks I remember this episode of The Simpsons.

  • @targasbr dijo en Since when is "getting good" needed to enjoy a game?:

    When I see these feedbacks I remember this episode of The Simpsons.

    EXACTLY!!

  • @targasbr this hits too close to home man, this isn't fair.

  • @targasbr said in Since when is "getting good" needed to enjoy a game?:

    @x-crowheart-x I totally agree with you. But when we try to please everyone we end up not liking anyone. When I see these feedbacks I remember this episode of The Simpsons.

    That is why we figure it all out together. It only works best when everyone has a voice and chance to speak. Better to talk and work together despite all our differences than constantly opposing each another. Especially saying do not speak unless it is what I want to hear.

    Once we heard from everyone on the bus, we know where everyone is wanting to go. Ultimately Rare is driving the bus. It does not mean that they cannot and will not change their route to take everyone where they want to go. Some will get off along the way, but we all will be along for the ride together until we reach the final designation. We should just set back and enjoy the sights all around us, instead of telling others to only look in one direction.

  • @x-crowheart-x

    Ooh good times... those first games i remember them!

    Prince of persia 1
    Dune 1
    Wings of fury
    Reunion
    Moonbase
    Civilisation 1
    Monkey island 1
    Sim city 1

    Oh dear the world completely changed before me eyes :D

  • @x-crowheart-x When we hear where everyone on the bus wants to go in the end, the bus will have to stop everywhere and many people will be dissatisfied and will complain more, or the bus will end up going nowhere.

    When we get on a bus we know exactly where it is going, taking different routes are not tolerated by the passengers.

  • Seems like you all have made all the points that can be made. Just to throw in my lot, I love the game the way it is and have a real problem with talk of @baftnation 's "types of players." It seems everyone has simply accepted as a truism the idea that some like PvP and some like PvE. As the saying goes: "different people have different 'pinions; some like apples, some like 'inions," but those terms really don't do anyone a service. They lock people into ways of thinking and ways of playing that ultimately make the game stale.

    For that reason, I would hate it if Rare sought to "appease" either camp. My love for this game is due in no small part to how immersive it is, how real the threats seem. The fact that undead are AI and living pirates are players is, in my mind, pure genius, "cheaters" and all. Sure I've been trolled, sure I've been "double-gunned," but those are just bumps on the road.

    The fact of the game is that trolls will get bored eventually and shove off with no real loss to true players.

  • @targasbr said in Since when is "getting good" needed to enjoy a game?:

    @x-crowheart-x When we hear where everyone on the bus wants to go in the end, the bus will have to stop everywhere and many people will be dissatisfied and will complain more, or the bus will end up going nowhere.

    When we get on a bus we know exactly where it is going, taking different routes are not tolerated by the passengers.

    That would be the wrong bus to get on. Most of us would have not stepped up into it. It would not have many passengers. Would be very lonely on that bus. The rest of us would have noticed the sign over the windshield that said the next stop was Intolerance Road.

  • I disagree I think that making a PVE only mode with rewards will split the player base. PVE players will leave the main mode for a escape from PVP.

    Speaking for myself the reason why PVE is enjoyable is the constant threats. There may be a lot of CPU threats like the Kraken, Megalodon and Skeletons but they are not enough.

  • @baftnation a dit dans Since when is "getting good" needed to enjoy a game? :

    I was thinking, with the Arena coming up soon, is it not time to also give the PVE community a place to be?

    I know a few people who are hyped to play sea of thieves but just dont stand a chance if it comes to PVP, some want to solely roleplay, others just want to explore or earn gold!

    The whole game has been a pve place since release, opening pve servers will just kill open pvp. Also what role exactly the roleplayers want to play in this game of pirates... happy peaceful pirates, non violent pirates or vegan pirates maybe (so no merchants quests indeed) ?

  • I still laugh at the calls for no rewards in a PvE only mode... how do these folks think those rewards are mainly obtained in the current iteration of the game? Hint: you don't get them through PvP...

    Secondly, the rewards are cosmetic! Let's spell it out together... C-O-S-M-E-T-I-C! They provide nothing to enhance gameplay. If the rewards increased damage, or armor or speed, there would be a valid, logical argument to be made for restricting them, but they don't, so there isn't. If anything, calling for PvE Only players to not be allowed cosmetic rewards, comes off as spiteful and petty at best.

    The Arena is a PvP mode. Please stop stop trying to pretend that it isn't. I'll wager that there won't be any teams using PvE style gameplay, who will come out on top of any of these quickplay matchups; they'd be chewed up and spat out so fast, they'd probably never try it again.

    The 'PvE Only Would Kill The game' arguments are equally foolish. Expanding a player base by allowing other styles of play, therefore engaging a much wider group of regular players, would do the exact opposite (a game doesn't die by adding to the player base and expanding its demographic reach. It grows).

    This conversation is becoming so utterly ridiculous, that I hardly know what to say anymore.

  • ... brand new ideas ... FAQ please ....

  • @baftnation I am not a PVP or PVE player I am a pirate and an opportunist. I am one of the many.

    Why is there such a mentality to try and categorize people in one of the two groups?

    I for one am against PvE only servers. As I enjoy all aspects of the game and the most enjoyable aspects is the unknown when meeting others on the sea. Making PvE servers and the ability to switch back and forth will create a safe place to farm, grind and therefore reduce the variety of pirates in the Adventure mode.

    Is is required to get good to enjoy, not at all. The seas will result in losses and in wins, all we can do is ensure we ain't sailing around with more than we are willing to lose.

    My partner played yesterday for the very first time, I am a pirate legend athena 10. She is not a gamer, so was struggling with the basics even, like it takes a sec or two to draw a weapon.

    We went out on initiation voyages, dug up some treasure, killed some skellies, defeated a megan and were sunk twice by PvP action by the two other crews we met. She enjoyed the game and is willing to play again with me and I doubt we will win any pvp battle for a long time together.

    It isn't like we are helpless, I boarded the brig killed 2/3 of the crew and anchored them... my partner was steering the ship and didn't gain much ground going left, right and who knows where. So, we might win a fight at some point once she gets the hang of it more, but who knows we will see.

    We will most likely be a very friendly crew and alliance up with anyone that doesn't sink us on sight. We are a PvE crew in an open free world, that will result in gathering treasure, selling, sinking and continuing with our voyage. I would not want to deprive the pirates that were on my server from meeting us, just because I wanted to shelter her from the pirate life.

    The people shouting for PvE only want to gather tons of loot and not have the chance to lose it. Well, it is a pirate game and defending your spoils is up to you. There is no safe haven and the seas are full of challenges to overcome.

    You lose some, you win some and that is the point. Learn, adapt and become better pirates, but above all just enjoy the game and all it has to offer.

  • The term get good (or git gud) is often used to indicate that a person should stop complainging and start learning. It's not really a nice thing to say but it's in my honest opinion not as toxic as it sounds.

    It's often just shorthand for stick with it and learn from your mistakes.
    When people say get good I don't see a person who wants another person to stop playing, I see the opposite. He/She wants the person he's saying it to to keep trying and get better by this.
    We can explain a lot of things, keeping your head on a swivel, stocking up, methods of running away, etc. But in the end you still have to learn to apply those tactics and when.

    Getting good at Sea of Thieves doesn't require fast reflexes nor does it require you to learn button imputs or combos. It requires you to learn the way the game works and how to use that, master this and you can go around with confidence and you'll rarely lose loot.

  • @x-crowheart-x I particularly prefer to be alone on the bus, as long as I know exactly where this bus is going and as long as it does not take another route. Anyway, anyone going to the same path will take this bus. Few passengers, but passengers who know well where they want to go.

  • @urihamrayne thats not a way to treat so many players is it?
    Please don't comment here if you can't be reasonable or at least have a good argument than just "get good"..
    Thanks.. iguess

  • @targasbr except, this aint a bus.. its a game and the change im suggesting wouldnt bother you or i in the slighest!

  • @baftnation If the changes please everyone, why not? But the problem is that we still see a lot of discussion about many things in this game. If there are two sides, it is not good for everyone.

  • @meurtrisseur youre stating that it would kill open pvp but not why.. why would it?

  • @cotu42 i understand your point, however many players DONT LIKE pvp and never will, who gets hurt by giving them a place to just do their thing?

  • @hynieth but some people CANT or dont have time to get good, my gf will get sunk by the kraken or a skelly ship quite easily as many other gamers!

    AI can be a very huge threat to people, i know it isn't for you guys, but try thinking like them that are like that?!

  • But at the same time it makes sense the option not be there yet. Sea of Thieves should continue to update until it can totally stand on it's own as a PvE experience before giving players that option and I just don't think its quite there yet. It's getting closer though! If Tall Tales implements some direct objectives/lore and the Captaincy update gives some endgame content... maybe a few more enemies and mission types along the way... I think I'd be comfortable talking private lobbies then.

    I find the above the best argument and i totally agree with you!
    The game needs more work to be able to host PVE servers!

  • @targasbr alot of people dont have a proper argument against this idea besides "git gud or "it will kill the pvp"
    But the first is nonesense and the second one i dont think will happen, i think the community will thrive, especially with prioritization on full servers

  • @baftnation As i said in another post, I usually use logic to think of solutions, before thinking about a change, I ask the following:

    • Is this going to balance the game better?
    • Is this really necessary?
    • I'm asking this because it's unfair to other players?
    • Am I really not asking for simple personal tantrums?
    • Is this going to help other players?
    • Is it worth putting a team of developers in charge of this change and have other priorities?

    If the answer is YES to ALL questions, I support the idea. If it is not for some of them, I think we should discuss the idea until everyone comes to an agreement.

    In many cases, I stopped on the first answering as no. Therefore, it is not worthwhile to carry on the other issues.

    But, in many cases, specially in this game, it's only the player's lack of skill.

  • @baftnation The game isn't gone tomorrow. Your girlfriend has enough time to get the hang of things.
    Nothing is less satistying then a game that just lets you win because you're not good enough yet and don't want to be. Ever played Bayonetta on easy? You just spam A and the game does the rest. Is it fun? Nope it's not.

    The whole git gud thing started with Dark Souls (actually Deamon's Souls but that didn't really take off as much as Dark Souls). People think it applies to PvP toxicity but it's actually people trying to explain what's so good about beating a hurdle in that game. You play it, you persist and eventually learn to beat something in that game, then you'll feel empowered because the game didn't relent yet you beat it. Imagine if you will the game just taking pitty on you and halving the health bars or letting the bosses go limp or something when you struggle with it.

    Sea of Thieves doesn't even have that, it's a shared world so equal for us all. So yeah it's not that hard, and if you can't beat it I think persistance and learning is the best way in stead of taking away all our fun and having everything nerfed.

  • @hynieth I never liked and against PVE servers but you brought up something that i like and said it before. If players want that much PVE server if there is one with no character progression you dont get EXP and commendations then maybe it would be ok.

  • @faceyourdemon yeah, the problem is that they want the same rewards with no risk, see what Jack Flintlock said in this page...

  • @amancebacabras
    What compared to server hoppers looking for forts?
    Or those who 'cheesed' various quests
    Or those that abuse NAT settings to get 'empty' servers.

    Most of the PL's aren't worthy of the title anyway. And as all exp & gold give you is cosmetics why does it really matter to you?

  • @faceyourdemon I was mostly explaining what people generally mean with get good and what the power of this current gameplay loop/ progression and status as a PvPvE game is.

    As for a PvE mode with no rewards it would actually be bad for the game, here's why.

    First and foremost, more options in the menus. While I agree there could be more checkboxes and modifiers I've seen the sticky notes on Rare's wall and the way menus are structured now is great and streamlined.

    Having a PvE option in any form wil entice a lot of (especially new) players. If I had the option I'd have chosen it too. And I'd had quit the game before I even started playing because that would give me the same impression as a lot of reviewers had with this game. A pretty sea pretty islands repetative quests 10 hours of gameplay and quit.

    See the only way of actually achieving PvE is having a server for yourself, so no other people to interact with (because otherwise they could still crash into you, use barrels and interact with your ship to crash steal etc). So it would be lonely.

    No new players = A dying playerbase = Dead game.

    I'd rather see a few people leave the game because they literally didn't read either the name it's theme or the info box on the website/ game/ games site then lose 90% of the new players who join the game.

  • @sort-out-xplay The server hopping and the MA quest is not a thing now. What matters to me is that in every single PVPVE game I've played where different game modes where created the game was worst after the changes than before them. What bothers me is that I've buyed a game and now some people want to change that game because they buyed something they dont enjoy knowing what they buyed before. Is people asking the world to bend despite bending to the world.

    I can ask you the same in the other way: if all the exp and gold give you cosmetics, why you need a pve server? what bothers you so much in getting killed by a player? Is not the same when a skalleon sinks you or when a wave of EoR skellies kill you? Why ALL the pve asking people dont enjoy human interaction in an online game and only want to play with their "friends"? And before you say that some people s%&t talk and that kind of things, that is against the rules just like cheating or exploiting, so shouln't be a reason for a pve server.

  • @baftnation said in Since when is "getting good" needed to enjoy a game?:

    saying it would kill open pvp but not why.. why would it?

    Most responders that do not want a PvE only server are most afraid of players leaving the open PvEvP and thus they will have one to sink, shoot, stab, or blow up. The argument of splitting servers will cause the game to fail is just the same fear.

    They want players to stick around to play their way only. There can be no modes, no changing the core game and taking players away from it. However, they want The Arena to get more of what they want at the same time. They asked for what they wanted and got it. No one else can dare ask for anything else because it is not what they want.

    There is absolutely no reason that a PvE mode cannot also exist along side the main game and The Arena exactly as it is now with all the cosmetics and commendations. It takes nothing away from anyone. The always say no crowd claims it will be unfair because a pirate cannot progress without risk. There are NPC and environmental risks, but it should not matter. There is no progression that matters. There are no character levels. It is all cosmetic skins, titles, commendations for repeating the same things over and over, and a few XBOX achievements. It is just an excuse to take away and even punish others from not doing and only giving me what I want.

    It is you cannot have what you want. You must play only the way I want. It is only what I want and if you do get what you want you cannot have it the same because it is not what I want. What is new with this point of view is now you cannot even say things I do not want to hear.

    Why? Because they are getting more afraid they will not have only what they want and things will not stay only their way.

  • @baftnation well as I explained the people like me that enjoy all aspects of the game. It hurts their experience, in case it wasn't clear see below for a more detailed description.

    Making a safe place to grind would result in less variety of types of crews in the sessions that provide a PvPvE environment and actually make those sessions more filled with PvP focused crews. Amplification of the behavior the PvE side is stating they don't like and will drive more people away if they are interested in doing voyages.

    This is even more amplified if the same pirate can choose a PvPvE or PvE server. Want to PvP, but not Arena head to the PvPvE servers, want to just earn tons of money? Don't want to fear pirates stealing it? Go to the PvE side. Why risk your level and cosmetic progression if you can do it safely in your own bubble of friendly non threatening seas?

    This result in a more one sided experience and it will be based on the choice at the start of the session instead of the interactions on the sea. Which I think diminishes the quality of the game experience significantly for everyone that classifies themselves as pirates and not a PvP or PvE player. Which I believe is the majority of players, all to support a small portion of players within already a niche game.

    Games cannot facilitate all needs, going wide is not always a good thing. There also people that want stat, talent and better weapon progression... should we also add that? I don't think so. Just as PvE only servers it removes us further from what a lot of us enjoy and find refreshing about this game.

    Don't like PvP at all? Become a master sailor, be aware of your surroundings and you will never have to fight a pirate up close and personal.

    If that option isn't enough for you, than take the time and effort to purchase or converting the other crews in your session to an alliance. Which requires a charismatic approach and is also a skill to perfect if that is your thing.

    The sword and cannons are not the only tools available to us pirates.

    Also keep in mind, the Arena will siphon off some of the hardcore PvP players resulting in more dynamic sessions hopefully in the Adventure mode.

    Edit: to comment directly on the a lot of people don't like and never will like PvP: Why buy a game that advertises itself as a PvPvE game? It isn't like Rare had been hiding the fact that player interaction and players sinking and stealing from you are at the core of the gameplay.

    Want to play PvE only pirate game: check out Sid Meier's Pirates or Monkey Island.

  • Why do people think they should just have the option to just "grind voyages in peace" ? That isn't what the game is about. Sure the rewards are only cosmetic and don't offer any real practical advantage, but the rewards still represent an accomplishment. Allowing players to earn the same rewards for lesser difficulty ultimately decreases the effort/skill needed to obtain the accomplishment, thus decreasing the overall value and meaning of the accomplishment.

    Of course this game is more about making stories and experiences, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't protect the meaning and value of the accomplishments in the game. What does Pirate Legend really mean if players could reach it without ever having to defend themselves from other pirates as we always have? What would the "Raider of Cursed Strongholds" title mean if you were able just to go grind out 250 forts without the competition?

    PvE servers / Private Servers are fine, but I just strongly oppose allowing players to gain progression by hiding out in a server that doesn't have threats from other players. Because while the game is mainly about the experience and the stories, they DO need to ensure that player accomplishments, while only represented by cosmetics, still hold the same value as this game grows.

    Furthermore, this game is designed so that players see a wide array of situations created by all sorts of environmental AND player behavior. I don't think they should incentivize limiting that experience by allowing progression in a mode where certain player behaviors don't exist.

    Why can't people just adapt?

  • @targasbr
    Is this going to balance the game better? - For those that just dont want to pvp, yes!

    Is this really necessary? - For those not playing just because the player versus player is OR way above the level they will ever get OR because they want to roleplay or just do PVE YES

    I'm asking this because it's unfair to other players?
    It shouldnt affect the general game stats and progress as there SHOULD be a threat bigger than the AI to make progressing fair! if this is the case, then it wont be unfair!

    Am I really not asking for simple personal tantrums?
    As i said before, i am not speaking up about this for me, i see a whole lot of players that need/want this option!

    Is this going to help other players?
    Those that have a handicap/not enough to play so they dont wanna spend time pvp OR just youtubers, roleplayers, casual PVE players YES, it will help them enjoy the game the way THEY want to play it without others affecting their experience!

    Is it worth putting a team of developers in charge of this change and have other priorities?
    Not yet!
    But i think in the future when there is more ingame lore/story lines etc to follow YES, the posibilities will be endless!

    I hope i answered those questions as you meant them!

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