Water Sinks Ships

  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    This post is an expansion upon an argument I posted in response to another thread.

    From time to time, there are posts that suggest bounties be offered to pursue and sink crews that are being pirates and thieves on the Sea of Thieves. Or they suggest commendations and rewards for sinking ships in PvP encounters.

    The difficulty with determining which crew should attract a bounty, and which crew should win the reward for sinking them is twofold:

    1. If one ship sinks another, the game has no way of knowing which crew was the aggressor, and which was just defending themselves.
    2. Players do not sink ships. Water sinks ships.

    Who is the Aggressor?

    If two ships battle, and one is sunk during the encounter, how is the game to know whether the surviving ship was the aggressor? It cannot simply be the ship that fired the first shot.

    Consider for example, a crew with peaceful intent sees someone swimming towards them, from another ship, with a gunpowder keg. They shoot the keg, killing the swimmer, and then start firing their cannons at the other ship. If the ship that launched the keg swimmer sinks first, should the defending crew get a bounty on their head?

    Players do not sink ships. Water Sinks Ships

    A ship sinks when enough water gets inside. Water may enter a ship in various ways:

    • Holes in the hull.
    • Bucketing Water into the ship
    • Rain
    • The Chest of Sorrows

    A ship may be holed by:

    • Cannon fire from: other player ships, skeleton ships, skull fort and island cannons (fired by skeletons or humans)
    • Exploding Gunpowder kegs (lit by skeletons or humans, struck by lightning, or bumped into like mines)
    • Ramming another ship, or being rammed
    • Running aground
    • Kraken or Meg
    • Storms
    • Rocks from volcanoes
    • Scuttling the Ship

    It will be obvious that players often help this process along in various ways, including cannon fire, and delivering gunpowder kegs. Less obviously, a crew may help a ship take on water by delivering the chest of sorrows, or bucketing water in, or causing it to run aground by taking over the sails or wheel, or hitting it with a cursed cannonball.

    But when the water finally rises to a point where the ship is sunk, how does the game determine whether it was due to the action of another crew? So often, there are various factors at play. Not least the defending crews inability to save the ship, because they are inattentive, busy or dead; or have run out of planks.

    Let's consider some examples:

    1. You fire on a ship and hole it, and it starts to fill with water. The solo sailor on board starts to repair the holes, but does not bail water. Just as he repairs the last hole, rain fills his ship and it sinks. Should you get credit for that?

    2. You board an empty ship, and raise its anchor, sending it sailing into a rock. Then you return to your own ship. Should you be credited with a sinking, when the empty ship finally succumbs to the water?

    3. You turn up at a skull fort to find another ship has just beaten you there and is still being battered by the skeleton cannons on shore. You try to help the process along by firing a few more cannonballs at the ship. Unbeknownst to you, all your shots go through existing holes. Do you deserve credit if it sinks?

    4. You turn up at a skull fort to find another ship has just beaten you there and is still being battered by the skeleton cannons on shore. You fire a barrage of cursed cannonballs at the ship, preventing the crew from bailing and repairing. Do you deserve credit if it sinks?

    5. A person from Crew A puts a gunpowder keg on your deck. Someone from Crew B uses an Eye-of-Reach to explode the keg. Crew C boards and prevents your crew from repairing the damage, while a megalodon takes a chomp out of the stern. Which crew sunk your ship?

    6. Using gunpowder kegs and cannon fire, you put many holes in a ship over a prolonged battle. Finally, before their ship sinks, the other crew scuttles. Do you get credited with the sinking?

    7. If you answered Yes to the last scenario: What about this one? You spawn camp a perfectly good, completely dry ship, killing the crew over and over until they scuttle. Do you get credited with the sinking?

    8. You battle a ship at sea. One of your crew tries to board the enemy with a mega-keg but is eaten by a shark. Some time later, you circle and run over that same keg, blowing many holes in your hull and killing your whole crew. Does the other ship get credited with sinking you?

    TL;DR:

    Players don’t sink ships.

    Water sinks ships.

    Please stop suggesting bounties, rewards, or commendations based on sinking ships. It is impossible for the game to determine who sinks who.

    Postscript

    If the games were to offer a bounty for pirates that menace other pirates (and the merit of that idea is open to debate), one way in which it could be done is to put a bounty on crews that cash-in stolen loot; i.e. chests, skulls, and other loots that was originally dug up, won, or found by another crew. Recently, my crew stole a row-boat laden with captain's chest from what seemed to be a Gilded GH mission. No ships were sunk; but we certainly ruined that crew's day!

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  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    I ❤ this argument.

  • Lev1832
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @surveyorpete this is one of the stupidest arguments I’ve ever heard on the forums. Everyone in this game and I mean EVERYONE is a pirate and a thief there is no good guys. I guess you could say skeletons are bad guys and pirates are good guys but that’s a whole different thing. The end nothing else to discuss on this topic.

  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    @danklizard202

    You clearly did not understand my argument. I was not talking about player behavior and who are the good guys or bad guys. I am talking about the futility of suggesting bounties, penalties or rewards for “sinking other ships” when there are so many times in which it would impossible for the game software to determine WHO (or what) was responsible for the ship sinking.

    I speak as a software developer; not just a gamer.

  • Lev1832
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @surveyorpete yes I can see where your coming from

  • BR0CRASTINAT0R
    Captain
    Insider

    @danklizard202 I am no pirate or thief and have never conducted any act of piracy. Ever! I am very much passive, the true hard mode.

  • Sgt Paloogoo
    Commander
    Insider

    @galactic-geek said in Water Sinks Ships:

    I ❤ this argument.

    Very well thought out indeed.
    Not to mention Bounties would take away from the freedom of sea of thieves.

    @br0crastinat0r said in Water Sinks Ships:

    @danklizard202 I am no pirate or thief and have never conducted any act of piracy. Ever! I am very much passive, the true hard mode.

    I'm the same way.
    I don't like ruining other peoples' days... not that I'm saying people can't be pirates if they want to.

  • Shinten Rai
    Marauder
    Insider

    @surveyorpete Solution is simple here.

    You get X whatever for Y PvP faction whatever it is for killing other players. If the game can't determine if the player sinks the ship it can determine how, why, and who killed you. Cutlass, pistol, cannon, TnT barrel. Commendations aplenty for things like that. Having a entire crew on the ferry as their ship sinks could be one.

    Cause I will be real here, it is very rare that you come across a ship with any type of loot in it. Or the amount of loot on board just isn't all that worth it or satisfying after a long extended ship battle and you won and nothing is there.

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    TLDR: Water is the Enemy! We must burn all the water!

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @nabberwar said in Water Sinks Ships:

    TLDR: Water is the Enemy! We must burn all the water!

    🤣🤣🤣

    I think the volcanos in the DR already tried that...

  • ENF0RCER
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @surveyorpete You know there is a very easy solution to this. It's called registing Last hit. All that needs to be done is simply call up the last player who registered damage it can be in the form of creating a hole in the haul or thorwing in water from a bucket. to the ship that was not part of the crew and reward that person with the kill so long as that damage was done within the pre defined time limited. This how any other game will register a kill if a non player entity delivered the death blow inculding sucide. You have a well written argument but you have failed to considered this is not a unqiue situation in Gaming.

  • ClosingHare208
    Marauder
    Insider

    @surveyorpete it sort of does mate

  • LucianSanchez82
    Legend
    Boatswain
    Founder

    @surveyorpete Excellent points, very well put matey!

    My (semi) solution to this would be to have the ability to flag yourself for pvp. A little like the Reapers Mark, your ship will now be visible on everyone's map to invite them to attack you (also making you more easily avoidable to those not interested in pvp). At this point, if your ship sinks, a few loot items will float to the surface and any ship that sinks that you've done damage to that hasn't been repaired will count as a ship sunk for you and will also generate loot - much in the way emergent threats do now, though perhaps one of the items generated from sunk ships might be a new item that gives "pvp rep" when handed in.

    This would mean a "kill" is counted as any ship that sinks that you've put a hole in which is then not repaired before it goes down. This sort of registration already exists in the game - if you hit a skelly ship or meg and then sail away leaving another crew to finish the job, your crew will still get the count on their commendation (I've checked with a few meg and skelly ship kills).

    This isn't a bounty system as such, but is a way to allow crews to invite pvp upon themselves - probably has flaws of its own, but more options on how we choose to play can only be a good thing, right?

  • Lev1832
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Getting a lot of replies of people telling me they aren’t a pirate nor thief which is nonsense. Everybody in the Sea of Thieves is a thief or a pirate. You must of at least fired a cannonball out of a cannon ONCE in your time playing Sea of Thieves

  • Niqsun
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    @danklizard202 What some people (including yourself) don't seem to understand, is that this game attracts more people than just people who want to play pvp. Also some people don't like to pirate from other humans, but they do like to pirate from npc's.

  • Lev1832
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @niqsun this game isn’t an elder scrolls game where you go and do quests and grind. It’s the Sea of Thieves the developers clearly called it that for a reason. Anyway what people are saying here is nonsense you have to do pvp no matter what. If someone attacks you, you must defend yourself.

  • ENF0RCER
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @surveyorpete said in Water Sinks Ships:

    I just wanted to give the answers to your Examples as to what would happen if a player were given a bounty mission to sink a ship.

    Let's consider some examples:

    1. You fire on a ship and hole it, and it starts to fill with water. The solo sailor on board starts to repair the holes, but does not bail water. Just as he repairs the last hole, rain fills his ship and it sinks. Should you get credit for that?

    Yes assuming that ship sank within a predefined time frame of the player damage.

    1. You board an empty ship, and raise its anchor, sending it sailing into a rock. Then you return to your own ship. Should you be credited with a sinking, when the empty ship finally succumbs to the water?

    Yes this should also apply if the enermy player was on the wheel when the ship hit.

    1. You turn up at a skull fort to find another ship has just beaten you there and is still being battered by the skeleton cannons on shore. You try to help the process along by firing a few more cannonballs at the ship. Unbeknownst to you, all your shots go through existing holes. Do you deserve credit if it sinks?

    Yes as the Player merely has to register a hit on the target.

    1. You turn up at a skull fort to find another ship has just beaten you there and is still being battered by the skeleton cannons on shore. You fire a barrage of cursed cannonballs at the ship, preventing the crew from bailing and repairing. Do you deserve credit if it sinks?

    Yes. Agian if you regester a hit even with a CCB it should count.

    1. A person from Crew A puts a gunpowder keg on your deck. Someone from Crew B uses an Eye-of-Reach to explode the keg. Crew C boards and prevents your crew from repairing the damage, while a megalodon takes a chomp out of the stern. Which crew sunk your ship?

    The Eye of Reach sniper killed the ship. Cause the person who brought the keg did not damage the ship and nethier did the crew spawn killing. If the goal was to sink the ship. Then the Ship was the target. If they fail to register a "hit" on the ship then they do not get credit for sinking the ship.

    1. Using gunpowder kegs and cannon fire, you put many holes in a ship over a prolonged battle. Finally, before their ship sinks, the other crew scuttles. Do you get credited with the sinking?

    That depends. If the crew scuttles within the predifined time limit them yes. However if they scuttle the ship after that time it would considered a sucide.

    1. If you answered Yes to the last scenario: What about this one? You spawn camp a perfectly good, completely dry ship, killing the crew over and over until they scuttle. Do you get credited with the sinking?

    No. as no damage was registered to the ship. However this can easily be avoided by a hostle player dumping a bucket of water on the ship before it sinks registering the kill.

    1. You battle a ship at sea. One of your crew tries to board the enemy with a mega-keg but is eaten by a shark. Some time later, you circle and run over that same keg, blowing many holes in your hull and killing your whole crew. Does the other ship get credited with sinking you?

    Did the enermy ship land a hit on keged ship before it sank in this senario? If they did then yes the enermy ship gets the kill. If they didn't then No they don't as it would be registered as a sucide.

    So All your senarios are accounted for.

  • Meurtrisseur

    Firstofall anyone could potentially be a murderer in this game and anyone could hunt for bounty the same. Anyway the game's data could gather very easy ways to know :

    • who shot first ?
    • who made the most damage to whom ?
    • who killed the most crewmates to whom ?

    Also another easy way to "determine factions" between grinding farmers and bloody pirates, flags :

    • you raise your bounty anytime you damage as sink another ship and anytime you damage or kill another pirate.
    • all red and black flags should highly raise your bounty "meter" when sinking and killing.
    • white flag should apply a malus to your raising bounty (since you can't use cursed canon balls)
    • using cursed canon balls should raise your bounty
    • killing the same pirate several times in a row should highly raise your bounty
    • using a keg (dealing a lot of damage to a ship in a row, killing several pirates all at once) should highly raise your bounty

    For such a system you have to consider basic behaviors : farmers will try to evade fights as if their lives were at stake (to save their loot) while pirates will try hard to make them happen.

    Once the bounty on your head is too high : you're black marked. You got a message informing you the pirate lord has black marked you for messing around in his business way too much, thus launched a highly rewarding hunt to sink you for the exemple (as to restore order amongst his folks) So boom : 30 mn glowing red flag whatever server you'll go, 30 mn unable to log if you quit the game and raising (+ 30 mn) everytime you rinse and repeat during 2 hours, starting after the 30 mn penalty.

    Bounty hunter npc in any outpost, you see a red flag on the map then you can check if there's any black marked crew thus a substantial bounty for sinking them and hurry your way for a rightful and worthy ;) vendetta. In addition a message from the system informing any joining pirate there's an ongoing bounty ready for the taking wouldn't hurt for sure.

    Bounty meter would lower over time obviously to prevent hard grinders to end being hunted on the long run.

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @enf0rcer disse em Water Sinks Ships:

    @surveyorpete said in Water Sinks Ships:

    1. If you answered Yes to the last scenario: What about this one? You spawn camp a perfectly good, completely dry ship, killing the crew over and over until they scuttle. Do you get credited with the sinking?

    No. as no damage was registered to the ship. However this can easily be avoided by a hostle player dumping a bucket of water on the ship before it sinks registering the kill.

    At this point, maybe give credit to every kill, but not for the sunk ship.

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    "Players do not sink ships. Water sinks ships."

    I remembered this video

  • Meurtrisseur

    @targasbr a dit dans Water Sinks Ships :

    "Players do not sink ships. Water sinks ships."

    I remembered this video

    What are you on anyway, this is blood loss as organ failure which kill people, not bullets. Guns have nothing to do about that, leave guns alone, shall we.

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