Surrender mechanic

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    EDIT - it looks like, as of the Hungering Deep update, we’re going to be able to swap out flags by going up to the crow’s nest. Finally, the universal signal of surrender will be available to us. Interested to see how people use it in-game.

    What made pirates the scourge of the sea was not that they killed people, but that they were thieves. The threat of death was real, but only if you didn’t surrender. In fact, for pirates, killing was bad for business. If a pirate became known for killing, crews would fight to death, feeling they had nothing to lose - which made the theft more difficult. Pirates preferred using fear as a means of getting crews to surrender.

    It would be great if there were some way of achieving this in-game. It would increase social interaction beyond the basic PvP engagement - see ship, sink ship. It would be great if crews could choose to surrender and if there were some sort of reputation penalty for killing a crew that has surrendered. Also, I feel that it shouldn't be something that a crew should do lightly (and, hopefully, it can be implemented with that in mind).

    Interestingly enough, this might also give the brig some usefulness to the brig. Mutinies could occur if someone wants or doesn’t want to surrender.

    I’m not sure of the best way how to implement this mechanic. Is it a white flag that can be run up the mast? Is it a white flag that a person carries (current view distance could make this problematic)? What does surrender mean in terms of how the ship or crew operates for those who surrendered? How to prevent this from being used for griefing?

    Lots of stuff to consider, but I feel it’s worth considering.

    EDIT: Even if this were simply an easier way to signal surrender, that would be helpful. In thinking about it more, the more freedom to interact, the better; so, a penalty or some complex mechanic around the idea of surrender may be overkill.

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  • YaCantDutchThis
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @entspeak This sounds like a fun mechanic. And maybe it could get rid of the 'Kill everything in sight' mentality that many people have now.
    I guess with the right pros and cons, this could really work.

  • hybrid elite18

    Maybe like a security status.

    • For those who wanted to be friendly pirates they would have high security status.
    • For those who want to be a real pirate 'argggg' , they would have a lower security status.

    This could also link into the title mechanic. Low security status would have evil titles. High would have Hero-esk titles.

    An interesting idea of how this can be shown is perhaps a kind of flag on your ship which scales based on your security status. Black & Red for evil and Blue & White for Hero-Esk.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @hybrid-elite18 said in Surrender mechanic:

    Maybe like a security status.

    • For those who wanted to be friendly pirates they would have high security status.
    • For those who want to be a real pirate 'argggg' , they would have a lower security status.

    This could also link into the title mechanic. Low security status would have evil titles. High would have Hero-esk titles.

    An interesting idea of how this can be shown is perhaps a kind of flag on your ship which scales based on your security status. Black & Red for evil and Blue & White for Hero-Esk.

    I think you’re missing the point. This isn’t about being a “friendly pirate” - that’s an oxymoron. But, piracy does not mean “kill everyone you see”. So, a “real pirate” would be the one willing to take a surrender. The job of a “real pirate” is to steal and killing is bad for that business. Which is why a reputation penalty for killing those who surrender serves the game - someone who killed everyone they saw would have a very bad reputation as a pirate.

    I think that the idea is supposed to be that everyone may, at some point - even mid-session, choose to engage in piracy in this game - though, you don’t have to. This idea keeps that option available.

  • SavageTwinky
    Master
    Insider

    People do surrender. We've actually taken the time to steal ALL of a ships supplies before... we left 5 planks.

  • Wiciuks
    Ship Mate

    @entspeak I was thinking about that too, but as you mentioned there's a need to implement the mechanic. Maybe a whole crew would have to carry a white flag and be in sight of enemies. It's a great idea, but it gotta be specified.

  • el Dunco

    Only way I see this being a thing is if there are consequences to sinking and/or dying.

    If respawn cost some gold for the ferryman or obtaining a new ship cost something at an outpost. If there is nothing to lose besides a fully stocked ship I don't see surrendering being used at all.

    Also, would need killing to have consequences. No point in accepting someone's surrender unless it benefits you as well. Pitched this idea in a few threads already but need a "Black Spot" mechanic for excessive killing.

    • Humanity meter that depletes after killing and goes back up after being passive over time.
    • Consecutive kills in a short period of time causes the meter to drop causing the pirate to obtain the "Black Spot"
    • Pirates with the black spot will be attacked frequently by special AI (either a ghost ship or just cursed skeletons that board ship/bumrush you at islands)
  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @savagetwinky Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that people don’t surrender, but the original idea was based on the mistaken notion that a “real” pirate kills on sight. The aim was to both make surrender a clearly recognizable thing and disincentivize killing on sight if someone was willing to surrender. But, even just having a clear means of signaling surrender would be great. I think the megaphone that is coming soon will help somewhat, but we’ll have to see.

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    @entspeak If the megaphone is implemented properly it will be of great help. What is to keep someone from murdering the crew that "surrenders"? I like the basis of the idea, but it also seems ripe for abuse.

  • Sweltering Nick
    Castaway

    @entspeak said in Surrender mechanic:

    What made pirates the scourge of the sea was not that they killed people, but that they were thieves. The threat of death was real, but only if you didn’t surrender. In fact, for pirates, killing was bad for business. If a pirate became known for killing, crews would fight to death, feeling they had nothing to lose - which made the theft more difficult. Pirates preferred using fear as a means of getting crews to surrender.

    It would be great if there were some way of achieving this in-game. It would increase social interaction beyond the basic PvP engagement - see ship, sink ship. It would be great if crews could choose to surrender and if there were some sort of reputation penalty for killing a crew that has surrendered. Also, I feel that it shouldn't be something that a crew should do lightly (and, hopefully, it can be implemented with that in mind).

    Interestingly enough, this might also give the brig some usefulness to the brig. Mutinies could occur if someone wants or doesn’t want to surrender.

    I’m not sure of the best way how to implement this mechanic. Is it a white flag that can be run up the mast? Is it a white flag that a person carries (current view distance could make this problematic)? What does surrender mean in terms of how the ship or crew operates for those who surrendered? How to prevent this from being used for griefing?

    Lots of stuff to consider, but I feel it’s worth considering.

    EDIT: Even if this were simply an easier way to signal surrender, that would be helpful. In thinking about it more, the more freedom to interact, the better; so, a penalty or some complex mechanic around the idea of surrender may be overkill.

    This game isn't about historical pirates, so stop with the historical references. It's about fantasy pirates, with a cartoony element.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @touchdown1504 The original idea was to, perhaps, make it so that if the surrendering crew was killed, the offender would take a reputation penalty - keeping with the notion that killing targeted crews was bad for the pirating business. I thought that, since the game can already distinguish between crews (you can’t dig up another crew’s chest, for example), that it would be possible to create a state for the surrendering crew that would generate a reputation hit if killed while in a state of surrender. Of course, it would also have to be set up so that the surrendering crew couldn’t easily change their mind. This wouldn’t prevent a crew from being killed - that isn’t the idea, but would disincentivize it and make it work more in keeping with the pirate theme.

    Obviously, just using a clear surrender signal does nothing to disincentivize killing a surrendering crew, but it would be nice to have, at least.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @sweltering-nick The operating word is pirate.

  • MaliceVanRow
    Captain

    Never surrender. Fight to the death!

  • lotrmith
    Marauder
    Insider

    Throw decent loot overboard, either high enough in quality or quantity that enemies are compelled to stop. Problem solved.

  • Sweltering Nick
    Castaway

    @entspeak said in Surrender mechanic:

    @sweltering-nick The operating word is pirate.

    I'm not talking about the WORD pirate, now am i? As long as you attack and rob ships, congratulations, yer a bloody pirate...

    I'm talking about something else, have you noticed that? xD

  • SavageTwinky
    Master
    Insider

    @entspeak

    Yah but it's more fun when without any stupid mechanics built on top of someone just surrendering, it's just more interesting than having mechanics force players to do something by disincentivizing other options.

    edit: I'm ok with more communication skills like white flags you can wave in place that take up 2 weapon slots.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @savagetwinky said in Surrender mechanic:

    @entspeak

    Yah but it's more fun when without any stupid mechanics built on top of someone just surrendering, it's just more interesting than having mechanics force players to do something by disincentivizing other options.

    edit: I'm ok with more communication skills like white flags you can wave in place that take up 2 weapon slots.

    I think if you’re not going to have a mechanic that impacts both sides - and I see the argument for not having it, then I don’t think a full-on surrender mechanic will work. If there’s no penalty for killing a surrendering crew, but the white flag effectively disarms the surrendering players, that’s not going to be workable.

    As I said in my edit of the OP, trying to disincentivize KoS through this type of mechanic may be overkill for a game like this. It doesn’t seem to be a game that involves a lot of structured mechanics revolving around player interaction and it might be best to keep it that way. Dealing with griefing and exploits is important, but that’s different.

    But the ability to run a white flag up the mast while the sails are up (or something like that) would be good. Some clearly understood sign of surrender would be a nice addition.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @sweltering-nick I have noticed you are talking about something else. Yes. :)

  • SavageTwinky
    Master
    Insider

    @entspeak

    I think if you’re not going to have a mechanic that impacts both sides - and I see the argument for not having it, then I don’t think a full-on surrender mechanic will work. If there’s no penalty, but the white flag effectively disarms the surrendering player, that’s not going to be workable.

    By being able to disarm yourself and communicate your surrendering... then enemies know your intent and you're not armed. And still allows for some cheeky play as the team surrendering.

    As I said in my edit of the OP, trying to disincentivize KoS through this type of mechanic may be overkill for a game like this. It doesn’t seem to be a game that involves a lot of structured mechanics revolving around player interaction and it might be best to keep it that way. Dealing with griefing and exploits is important, but that’s different.

    The KoS shouldn't be disincentivized. That is part of the game and not griefing. And that's precisely my point. This game works well because it's an unstructured mess. There is no incentive to PvP directly, as the loot is shared with PvE and you can play the game without ever killing another player. Since there is no incentive to do so, there shouldn't be a disincentive either. That's one of the special things about this game.

    But the ability to run a white flag up the mast while the sails are up (or something like that) would be good. Some clearly understood sign of surrender would be a nice addition.

    Sure without disarming your self at the same time, since you currently can't, then its a fairly empty gesture. At least with disarming yourself, you're committing to some extent and it's not imposed on the other players.

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    @entspeak With a good system in place I can see it being viable. Especially the way you explained with a rep hit for going back on your word so to speak. Couple things come to mind...

    If two crews agree to a surrender, and they agree a certain amount of loot, what prevents the attacking crew from taking more, or the surrender crew from giving less?

    I think the biggest possible downside is "why surrender?" There is no penalty with death now. Respawn on a new ship. running seems to payoff more often than not, and if the situation becomes that dire there is the red sea. I just don't see what the incentive is for the person that is surrendering.

  • Nebenkuh

    The game Conan Exiles (also made with Unreal Engine) has a neat 'surrender' emote. When using it, your character raises both hands in the air and is unable to use weapons or interact with the environment until the emote is cancelled, which is only possible after 10 seconds or so. You can still walk and jump during the emote tho.

    I think that would work pretty well in SoT. Combined with a megaphone and a flag on the mast you can control, people would have adequate tools to communicate their surrender, and the other crew would have a bit of assurance, since the surrender emote keeps you from using weapons.

    I don't think we need more elaborate mechanics than this, because as others have pointed out, the anarchic nature of this game is what makes it so great.
    Surrendering should not be a guarantee to survive, and it should not be a guarantee that it's not actually an ambush.
    The incentive to surrender would mainly be role playing or actually being out maneuvered or outgunned. People shouldn't surrender from the start, but only when they feel it's their last chance to keep their ship and maybe some of their loot. Keeping your ship is desirable, since being sunk will put you on the other side of the map, costing you precious time that it takes to sail back.
    It could also be fun to bait other crews into an ambush by pretending to surrender, then pulling out weapons when they are trying to carry your loot away..

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @touchdown1504 It’s still pirates. This isn’t war, with mutually agreed terms of surrender. I do believe that surrendering to pirates was pretty much unconditional - you’re going to lose whatever they want to take. Of course, you could try to negotiate with pirates, but... pirates.

    As for why surrender - to save time. Maybe I just have empty cages or nothing at all. Or maybe I just have a couple cheap chests, but don’t want to respawn all the way across the map to continue my voyage. I may lose the chests and some resources, or just resources, but I can go on my way from where I’m at without the chase, without the time spent fighting. Not everyone wants to engage in or feels capable of winning the PvP battles. This would be an out.

    Or, yes... as a ploy. Imagine recruiting a couple of sloops into a scheme. Two park behind rocks or a big island while one is the bait. A Galleon with loot may be willing to head toward a ship that is surrendering.

    For the attacker, it saves resources and time, as well. If there’s little or nothing on board, they’ve not wasted time and resources trying to sink the ship.

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @savagetwinky If we aren’t disincentivizing KoS, then making the white flag take up two slots disincentivizes surrendering, and limits the possibilities of using surrender as a ploy. The ship would already be at a disadvantage with the requirement to have the sails up for the white flag to work - that should be commitment enough. Since one of the aims in this game is an increased sense of paranoia, the attacking pirates should still be a little wary and cautious in a surrender.

    The concern I have about a hand held white flag is the view distance for rendering other players.

  • Arch Fable

    If it is useful enough and has decent theatrical value, then it would be amusement enough. ^^

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    @entspeak Yeah...the more I look at this, the more I realize I don't see it working.

    Nobody is going to surrender and just willingly hand their stuff over. Unless it is meaningless like an animal cage or something. makes no sense, do all that work to hand my work to someone. My gold and my reputation? "Here bro i just spent an hour digging up chests, but if you don't kill me you can have them". No , It makes no sense. Role players might do it, but the majority? I highly doubt it. The rewards in this game are already paltry for the time a player needs to invest. This would just make it worse. Run, or head to the red Sea are both viable options that work...no way is someone going to voluntarily hand their progress to someone else.

  • Nebenkuh

    @touchdown1504
    You'd be surprised. My crew kinda started boarding and extorting people and just taking some of the more valuable things. Many people, especially solo sloopers, are quite happy about getting to keep at least their castaways and seafarers..

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    @nebenkuh Not this guy. I will dump it in the Red Sea before I give it up to someone. It doesn't save time either. The time you take to offload my ship would take longer than a respawn. And if you have to chase me for it, it's your time too. Sounds to me like more folks need to learn to run. If people are giving stuff up this easily I need to start doing some extortion myself. Either that or spread the word that there is a better way.

  • Nebenkuh

    @touchdown1504
    "I will dump it in the Red Sea before I give it up to someone. "
    Not if we catch you first ;)

  • AngryCoconut16

    @entspeak What is the point? What benefit would there be to surrendering? And how would that improve the current PvP system?

    Plus there is no point referring to pirates and how they truly acted in history. Like a lot of pirate entertainment it is an exaggerated stereotype, like PotC... This is a game, it is not supposed to be historically accurate, it is supposed to be fun, and plenty of people would much rather engage in full out Naval combat.

    If people surrender but some people want to act the blood thirsty pirates they should not be penalised just because their victims surrendered. More to the point what is to stop people surrendering every single battle just to get the benefits of surrendering? Can people only surrender at the start of a fight? Can they also surrender half way through combat or just before their ship sinks?

    Unless you wanted just a simple mechanism to be able to raise a white flag on the mast to signal your surrender or something. I do worry however that this would increase the hostility in the game - all of the people being killed 'BUT I RAISED MY WHITE FLAG!! HE STILL ATTACKED ME!...' which is akin to people who are frustrated because they have no loot and are still sunk, i.e. I don't think it would serve any purpose other than aesthetic.

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    @nebenkuh LOL this is true!

    However, for the past couple weeks I have "worked the edge" meaning sailing the islands on the edge of the map. This leaves one side of the ship covered at all times, because no one can approach from that side. Since I have been doing this I have not been "Caught". I have noticed some ships start to sail my way, realize I am against the Red Sea then turn around, knowing they cannot get what I have. The only time since doing this that I can be considered "caught" is once when i was parked at Mermaid's Hideaway, someone managed to get on my parked ship while I was on the island. I never leave my loot on the boat. So...again, they got nothing. The bottom line here is there are better fixes than a "surrender" mechanic. Starting with the way reputation is done. But, that is another discussion.

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    @lotrmith This is already done. Have seen it while chasing. And...we did stop! Shiney!

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @angrycoconut16 The request to 'shut-up about history' makes little sense to me. Yes, this isn't reality, but it, clearly, is based somewhat on history. There are no lasers, no radars, no anti-ship missiles. It's fantasy based on history - some of the design is based on history. As such, it's not unreasonable to mention history as it related to pirates. It seems to me that, since the current focus of the game is on loot and not on PvP for the sake of PvP (i.e. the game doesn't reward PvP for the sake of PvP), that a mechanic based on historical fact that maintains that focus might not be a bad thing. But, as I mention in the OP, I understand that it may not be the best choice to disincentivize PvP for the sake of PvP in a game that also focuses on letting players choose and strategize.

    So, even if it isn't a full-mechanic, it opens up possible encounters - which is never a bad thing. And, as for people complaining about surrendering and being attacked anyway... that happens already. People tilt their cannons up, raise their sails, and anchor... and get sunk. Adding a white flag won't change the attitudes of players who simply want to see the world burn. In fact, having a full-fledged surrender mechanic with a penalty also won't change their attitudes.

    So, however it might be implemented, it's an added experience. That's not a bad thing.

  • AngryCoconut16

    @entspeak It is primarily based on pirate stereotypes and myths, that is obvious, mermaids, kraken, all pirates purchasing eye patches, peg legs and hooks (or having the option to purely for cosmetics), the idea of curses, and as you said, a game which allows players to have a lot of fun with combat and KoS mentality. Some games may benefit from looking more at the history and incorporating some realism into their game but I do not believe SoT to be one of them.

    How does this suggestion open up possible encounters?

    Yes, I agree, that's exactly my point. If it's already a problem introducing a flag wouldn't change a thing other than potentially make it worse as then there is a system in game specifically for letting people know you surrender which will still prove ineffective.

    I do like the idea of having a mechanic where players can raise flags to signal different messages. For instance, one for surrendering, one for saying you are on your way to kill a boss (when the AI threats are introduced), one to say you're a PvE player.. at the same time however I think this is effectively redundant as plenty of people are not going to bother paying attention to or responding to the flag message. This could also create additional hostility towards the ones not listening and thus create more problems than not implementing it at all... People will also misuse the flags to mislead other players, which is a valid thing to do, but I don't think this will ultimately add anything to the game...

  • entspeak
    Captain
    Insider

    @angrycoconut16 Can you name a pirate film, television show, or book, in which pirates are portrayed as people who kill indiscriminately?

  • TouchDown1504
    Insider
    Founder

    @entspeak Black Flag. Almost every episode.

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