[Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3
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@savagetwinky said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
This discussion is wrong and completely oblivious to the actual problem. If I'm on a pc and want to use a controller I'm in the same camp as Xbox players. Just add an option to limit the control scheme. People that want to use controllers are grouped. People that want to use k/m are grouped. If we are looking at the controller as the limiting factor then make that the option ie, the controller only games and disable the keyboard mouse.
Would like to see this implemented, something would still need to be done to balance loading times as well though.
It still doesn't seem right that some pc players can spawn in 10-20 seconds before an xbox player. -
@goodsamaritan11 said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@trophy-un1ocked it’s okay to be a little tushy hurt, I wouldn’t want to play on a 500ms monitor for any game either.
hahah ok let’s just ignore my previous post that for the sake of your argument.
I didn't respond to that statement because you're comparing apples to oranges.
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@personalc0ffee said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
Against disabling crossplay, even providing an option for it. Too many people will disable it.
It's a selling feature, make them play with it.
Instead balance the game and yes in this case HURT the PC player advantage and I say that AS a PC player.
You contradict yourself. If your concern is that too many people would disable it, obviously it wasn't a selling feature.
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@caisterkaos I am fairly sure that is all depending on your connection and or personal network setup. They may have ways to tweak it but i don't know. I know because I compated myspawn time with RL friend with similar setup (only difference is my desktop PC is wireless ((usb NIC)) and his was wired on his LAN.) and my spawn times were about 10-15 seconds slower.
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@trophy-un1ocked
You results of +/-0.5 seconds are if the xbox player is on max settings though & not all xbox players have their sensitivity at max.
So although your figures are correct you should also point out that at default setting the xbox is nearly 2 seconds slower to do a 360 & nearly a second slower to do a 180! A whole second slower!!
So your average joe schmoe xbox player is at an absolutely terrible disadvantage against someone on a pc. -
@elem08 sagte in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
The benefits of Mouse + Keyboard are negligible in the grand scheme of encounters
Except when it matters the most, which is in close combat after a successful boarding.
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@caisterkaos Correct, and I did post that in my initial link. Thats why I clarified it here that this is how I would play (on xbox) to minimize the "advantage" gap. And try to point out "Don't blame PC users because they fail to use in-game settings." They can get better at the game or get used to the controls of a more sensitive stick in a matter of hours~days.
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@trophy-un1ocked 500ms is 500ms. Either your study is invalid or proves the PC advantage. There is no argument. If your study “may or may not possibly indicate anything, everything, or even nothing at all” then it isn’t even worth referencing.
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@goodsamaritan11 you are comparing an output device monitor (Apple) to an input device controller/mouse(orange).
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@trophy-un1ocked No I am not. Time is time. It does not matter where the source of the time desparity is, there is a 500 ms difference. Time (apples) does in fact relate to Time (also apples). You act like the source of the desparity is relevant. The fact that the difference exists is the argument. And as other users have pointed out, 500 ms is the minimum difference at max sensitivity.
This doesn’t even begin to take into account use of macros, hot key binding, the accuracy and stability of the mouse, or the extra digits that can be used for different functions.
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@trophy-un1ocked said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@knifelife said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
TLDR: Give players a choice to disable crossplay, don't force players to play handicapped.
Can you link/post the data/studies that show "said" handicap? I recently did my own case study comparing in-game turn times, spawn times, and in a roundabout way my own reaction times. And what I found was this "handicap" for the console users was a +/- .5 seconds. My data was representative of me and my play style for both systems. If i were to play on xbox one, I would set the controller to max sensitivity. As I play on PC I leave everything on default settings. So, if anything this could represent an average user.
here are my findings: link
TLDR: My point is this when you throw around generalized statements like "disadvantage" or being 2x 3x etc "faster." without including numbers/data it sounds like a "HUGE" deal however, in all actuality we are talking about a fraction of 1 second. Sounds fairly negligible to me.
Hey mate, i looked at your case study and to me, im sorry to say doesnt prove anything about the disadvantage players have using a controller. Considering the issues people have about it are with PvP and not turning circles i believe your quote here basically sums up why:
"Please note these numbers are done while standing still not running around, and not engaged in PVP."
Due to the study not being done in PvP it cannot be used as evidence to refute that there is an in balance in PvP.
I personally (And will assume neither do you) have the resources or numbers to do a scientific unbiased case study between the two, only Rare and MS could be the appropriate party to do it.
Now what i can do is link to a story from a few years back when Microsoft attempted cross-platform play before of Gears of War. Ironically they scrapped the idea due to there findings of console players getting destroyed by PC players.
Quote: Microsoft scrapped plans to allow PC and Xbox 360 gamers to play shooters like Unreal Tournament 3 and Gears of War online together because during tests "console players got destroyed every time".
Story Source LinkSo that says to me although we do not have the resources and numbers to get the Data, Microsoft did and there was a clear disadvantage. I also believe thats why all the newer games that have incorporated crossplay E.g Rocket league, Fortnite.. they all have the option to disable it so you can still play balanced.
There is alsohe benefit of things like "Muscle Memory" to count towards a mouse users precision, which you just wont get in your thumb compared to your whole writst, and also saying that it is obvious you will have more precision control when you can use your whole armand wrist to aim rather then said thumb.
There is also the varying different mouse features to account towards it where they can get mouses that can adjust there dmi and all that. Im not on technical terms with it all so i can't go into great destail.
And on one last note is well, i play competive Overwatch, and there has been an ongoing issue with Mouse and Keyboard users in the higher tiers of the ladder and in Top 500 where players are using, i believe they are called "XIM's" to give themselves an unfair advantage. And even the developers came out and called for Microsoft and Sony to clamp down on it.
Also visuals must surely play a big part in it aswell, just go on twitch and watch the difference in playstyles between Console players on Fortnite or pubg for example and then watch them in PC, then tell me there is no difference.
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@trophy-un1ocked
I appreciate the link & you taking the time & effort to record the various times ;) -
@goodsamaritan11 said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@trophy-un1ocked 500ms is 500ms. Either your study is invalid or proves the PC advantage. There is no argument. If your study “may or may not possibly indicate anything, everything, or even nothing at all” then it isn’t even worth referencing.
The reason its worth referencing is because this is how I perceive the issue of "advantage." And how you can potentially measure going up against someone who is on par with your skill level on the opposing device. It may not be accurate but you could establish a baseline from it.
Furthermore I am trying to be informative to the others who don't do the research, or ignorant of the facts that external factors that cannot be controlled such as lag, latency, ISP issues and such -affect games- similar to each players "skill level."
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@cnt-thelrox said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@elem08 sagte in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
The benefits of Mouse + Keyboard are negligible in the grand scheme of encounters
Except when it matters the most, which is in close combat after a successful boarding.
or saving your ship/sailing/ doing anything that requires being able to turn faster than other players to spot/fire/multitask.
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I have to admit, one of the things I notice most about PC gaming (I took a lull out, until getting a hand me down with a whopper of a machine) is just how bloody good everybody has gotten.
I can't so much as walk six feet in a Battlefront or Battlefield without being torn several new r*****s from sharp eyed teenagers.
The point being, I do think that PC's lend themselves exceedingly well to accuracy based games, more so than a controller. But I would like to actually see the stats - I asked in a earlier thread whether anybody had tried playing with a controller on a PC, and whether they noticed a significant difference in performance.
I've also heard about some study conducted on a cross play, which noticed only a marginal performance increase by PC players ... That said, I'd be curious how that was measured. See of Thieves seems to be one of those games were 'losing' isn't necessarily down to the accuracy of a cannon ball, more the competence of juggling multiple components at once ... but surely, with the twitch-play ease of a PC gamer, the odds - at least were cannons and muskets are concerned - are always in the latters favour?
(I get that this is subject to assumptions ... So I would actually really appreciate if anybody had any decent stats. I gandered online, but not much came up).
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@knifelife I can appreciate that since at the time i couldn't really test in a PVP scenario. I would probably need two extra people assisting me with stopwatches/writing etc. I was just trying to establish a base line, yes it could fluctuate one way or the other when PVP is introduced as a variable.
Also thanks for the link, but again those types of studies and the scenarios/examples that you guys typically use are for the more "competitive"(overwatch/fortnite/halo whatever) PVP games (ones that have scoreboards/rewards/ranks/separate pvp/pve game modes etc.)
For me you cant really compare SoT to those types, and I would like to see a newer (proper) study done to reflect the laissez faire PVP we have now.I agree there is a difference in "efficiency." Like i said in another post, you can play classic doom on "decent" pc, and apple watch and an HP printer. Don't expect the same result on different "platforms" =)
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@guybrushcrpwood said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
I asked in a earlier thread whether anybody had tried playing with a controller on a PC, and whether they noticed a significant difference in performance.?
Yes, so much so that I generally will use both, controller for everything, kb/m for killing. Aim assist doesn't help you aim that first shot as quickly. The galleons require a lot of back and forth with sailing/repairing/bucketing/aiming cannons. Everything feels snappier/faster to the point I believe its a measurable difference. Any single task is easy to do but when your running between decks managing multiple tasks while paying attention to surroundings the difference is like trying to navigate a galleon around shipwreck bay at high speed vs a sloop.
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@goodsamaritan11 said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@trophy-un1ocked No I am not. Time is time. It does not matter where the source of the time desparity is, there is a 500 ms difference. Time (apples) does in fact relate to Time (also apples). You act like the source of the desparity is relevant. The fact that the difference exists is the argument. And as other users have pointed out, 500 ms is the minimum difference at max sensitivity.
Agreed to disagree then I guess.
This doesn’t even begin to take into account use of macros, hot key binding, the accuracy and stability of the mouse, or the extra digits that can be used for different functions.
I gone over all "those" issues in that previous thread too. Read through it for my rebuttal.
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@savagetwinky said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@cnt-thelrox said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@elem08 sagte in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
The benefits of Mouse + Keyboard are negligible in the grand scheme of encounters
Except when it matters the most, which is in close combat after a successful boarding.
or saving your ship/sailing/ doing anything that requires being able to turn faster than other players to spot/fire/multitask.
I will sort of agree (because raising/lower sails/anchor, turning wheel/sails are fixed speeds) but when i was testing on my xbox with max sensitivity there are a couple flaws that rare should fix.
- allow an option to turn off/on camera snap when using items (ladder,wheel, sails) I could not see an option to not snap back to "center" or default position.
- the "look" speed while using those was reduced severely. (almost back to default speeds)
This I would say is a disadvantage but should have a relatively easy fix.
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I dont think they should add the option because it will split the playerbase (might aswell give pve only servers also) but if they did as a PC player I would totally opt out of playing with the xbox players because I think it would be more fun.
Also if you do add the option please give us an ADS slider
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@mrbrocksego said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
Please don't replace a feature of the game with a broken version of the same feature. Optional crossplay isn't a fix its a downgrade to the current game system. They can balance the game without wrecking what they've built.
Nothing is being wrecked. Lots of games started with a feature, only for said feature to be improved, or discontinued, or replaced.
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@greaseman85 Its a downgrade. The games that have it as an optional feature are all more competitive than this one, and usually started off with no crossplay.
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@goodsamaritan11 said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@trophy-un1ocked it’s okay to be a little tushy hurt, I wouldn’t want to play on a 500ms monitor for any game either.
I don't think anyone would! ;P
But where is this coming from?
As trophy stated before, this fault would be, in part, due to the "input" device, or mouse/controller. Basically if you hit the jump button and it takes 500ms, or .5 seconds for the character to actually hop, it is possible to be that the signal from the controller took longer than it should have.
This could be tested with a wireless and wired controller and seeing if there is a difference in the input lag generated by either. If there is no difference, one would need a 2nd monitor/TV to connect to and test again.
This is one reason PC gamers will purchase "mechanical keyboards" because they have a faster input rate, to help remove the input lag.
There also is the factor of the TV/monitor too. PC monitors do tend to have a lower input lag than the average TV, but they are not immune to it. Any sort of up-scaling or down-scaling can cause input lag.
"There are three main functions that delay the monitor: acquiring the source image, processing the image, and displaying it. The more time it takes for the monitor to receive the source image, the more input lag there will be.... Other than from the display itself, the other major cause of input lag in the chain is the device the input was first acquired on. Some mice, usually wireless ones (including wireless controllers,) can add a significant amount of input lag before the image even reaches the screen. Once the image is in a format understandable by the monitor's video processor, it will apply at least some processing to alter the image in some way. The time this step takes is affected by the speed of the video processor and the amount of processing needed. Once the monitor has processed the image, it is ready to be displayed on the screen. This is the step where the video processor sends the image to the screen."
TL:DR I'm not saying you are wrong, you just do not have all the facts. This article and this Wiki
In regards to the thread itself, I support cross-play. I enjoy playing with users on Xbox. If Rare were to implement a way to "toggle" or disable cross-play, it wouldn't greatly affect me, nor would I be opposed to it.
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@trophy-un1ocked said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@savagetwinky said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@cnt-thelrox said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@elem08 sagte in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
The benefits of Mouse + Keyboard are negligible in the grand scheme of encounters
Except when it matters the most, which is in close combat after a successful boarding.
or saving your ship/sailing/ doing anything that requires being able to turn faster than other players to spot/fire/multitask.
I will sort of agree (because raising/lower sails/anchor, turning wheel/sails are fixed speeds) but when i was testing on my xbox with max sensitivity there are a couple flaws that rare should fix.
- allow an option to turn off/on camera snap when using items (ladder,wheel, sails) I could not see an option to not snap back to "center" or default position.
- the "look" speed while using those was reduced severely. (almost back to default speeds)
This I would say is a disadvantage but should have a relatively easy fix.
You can sort of agree all you want but it's self-evident that the kb/m isn't a marginal advantage by any stretch of the imagination. There are significant advantages on the precision alone, the speed just gives it an additional edge. I can look around WITHOUT a penalty while moving through out the ship, there is enough 180 degree turns going through the levels or working the sails that being able to look around easily while moving gives players a significant advantage in awareness in a pvp scenario as well as aiming at players and aiming on a moving ship.
I hit someone in the crows nest during a storm in a different ship while manning the cannons/sails. Screwed up their keg run.
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@doctor-dissaray I think you are missing my point with the post. I am well aware that slower game mechanics are not the same thing as input lag on a monitor/controller. The OP stated that 500ms was a negligible amount of time that provides no major difference in gameplay advantage. That is the point that I was disputing. If you played on a 500 ms input lag monitor, you would notice. Just like you would also notice 500 ms difference in the time it takes to accomplish anything in game. 500 ms is easily perceivable and a massive disadvantage, in the same way that someone who has a 500ms lagging monitor is at a massive disadvantage.
Basically I was using an easily relatable analogy to show that 500 ms is a significant difference, not negligible. I think we can all agree that it would be absolutely terrible to have the much lag on a monitor, so it was the easiest anaology I could make to show that .5 seconds is indeed significant.
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@mrbrocksego said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@greaseman85 Its a downgrade. The games that have it as an optional feature are all more competitive than this one, and usually started off with no crossplay.
It's not a downgrade. The feature is still there. Giving people the ability to turn it off does not remove your ability to keep using crossplay.
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Good xbox controller users can destroy m/kb players regularly. Here's an example that was posted to the CSGO sub today. Rank B ESEA is very good in CSGO, it's probably in the 90th percentile of players. Content warning:
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@levernicus said in [[Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3](/forum/post/674633
...it's probably in the 90th percentile....Which is the issue. You don’t make game options based on the top 10% of players. The average player is at a significant disadvantage still, and the game needs to cater to the majority of the players, not the elite few.
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@goodsamaritan11 said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
@levernicus said in [[Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3](/forum/post/674633
...it's probably in the 90th percentile....Which is the issue. You don’t make game options based on the top 10% of players. The average player is at a significant disadvantage still, and the game needs to cater to the majority of the players, not the elite few.
You simply have no data on what the average player is and you have no reason that any given matchup is immediately unfair. My point is, if you're dedicated you can easily matchup with m/kb players. Especially in sea of thieves which has sooo many more factors such as decision making, navigation, resource management, etc. than simply using guns, that this argument of inputs is not nearly as decisive to successful PvP as 'input accusers' are trying to make it seem.
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@goodsamaritan11 said in [Mega Thread] Play Anywhere and Cross Play - Part 3:
Which is the issue. You don’t make game options based on the top 10% of players. The average player is at a significant disadvantage still, and the game needs to cater to the majority of the players, not the elite few.
Also I'd venture to say that enabling crossplay would be catering to a minority playerbase and it would also fracture the servers and matchmaking. Which is exactly the opposite of what this game actually needs regardless of how vocal these people complaining are. If we took an actual count I highly doubt that you're a majority of the playerbase.