[Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3
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Dont worry little guy, this game is gonna do great, i have a thousand bucks ready to buy every item when they release microstansactions. Just so i can support the game. You just said you dont give a [Mod edited] about rares vision for the game. So ur opinion is invalid
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@nwo-azcrack said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
Dont worry little guy, this game is gonna do great i have a thousand bucks ready to buy every item when they release microstansactions.
Hahahahaha yep, typical childish response. Please go ahead and waste your mommy's money.
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OMFG will you two move your bickering to another chat or something? I understand both your viewpoints on this but this isn't constructive or helpful in any way, shape, or form. If you really want to go back and forth like so many other game Forums I've had to be in because games have problems like this, then please do every other player the small favor of moving it to somewhere else please.
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@jam-esoteric said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
I really want an offline mode for a more passive experience.
I want an offline mode so that I don't lose everything when I disconnect :/
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I think the upcoming AI opponents will give the bloodthirsty among us more (and more challenging) opponents for the short term. That'll hopefully take the heat off PvE focused folks who, as everyone on this thread has said, need so much more content.
For the long term, I keep remembering this interview Rare had: https://www.pcgamer.com/rare-explains-if-the-8-things-we-want-from-sea-of-thieves-will-be-there-at-launch/
They're clear on never having PvE only areas but they go on to discuss the possibility of private servers. That's something I personally really want and also a PvPvE long term solution. You make private servers available and folks with different playstyles will flock to servers that cater to them.
If it was me though, I wouldn't implement that until after the first few content updates, just to see how the player climate changes and settles. With a content and lore rich game private servers might be less appealing or divisive among the player base?
Does anybody know if Rare made any statement on the subject of Private/Custom Servers since that PC Gamer article?
TLDR:
We need more content with PvE incentive ad hopefully we'll be getting that with the Hungering Deep update. Long-term I'd love to see private servers happen. -
@da-lootmasta
My bad da lootmasta. I wont engage the troll anymore. Ur right mate. This isnt the place for this -
@thicclizzy I would be hopeful for the new upcoming PvE events that they say will make players "collaborate" to take down a big AI threat, but if you read previous interviews that's exactly what they thought the skeleton fortresses would do, bring people together to take down a otherwise hard challenge.
And look at skeleton fortresses now. They're the king of PvP, they've been literally called the PvP-oriented way to get to Pirate Legend, and they even changed the respawn mechanics so people could PvP better in Skeleton Fortresses.
So I personally have very, very, very little faith in this new activities to "foment cooperation".
Private servers though, that would be just perfect. Perfect solution that would keep me playing. I don't care if I need to log into a public server if I want to do skeleton fortresses or whatever, but just let me grind by myself. The game is so unenjoyable when I know at every second I'm not looking for a ship that there's a chance next time I look I'll be sinking. It's just so, not, fun.
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@khaleesibot As I see it, the real problem with this game is that the PVP player assumes no risk for attacking other players. Pirates never attacked each other because it was too risky. Fear of death instilled caution that made the real pirate world work.
Sure, the game could institute perma-death so each player could only die once and then their account is locked out forever. Not conducive to a large player base. Even a more temporary death, like a 2 hour ban, would be negative to the player experience. No one wants to pay for a game they can't play. Another option along these lines is to penalize death. Have it cost you a random level each time you die or cost you gold. The problem is that this further penalizes those who don't want to do PVP but are forced to do it even though they may not be good at it. This will drive those players away even more quickly. Taking on the issue by making death more weighty wont work.With fear of death off the table, there needs to be some other obstacle to limit PVP. PVE only servers are one option. Could it be a nice option for families with kids who want to play a cool cartoony pirate game? Sure. Would the game work for most people without any PVP? Not really. Part of what makes the game work is the threat that every ship on the horizon could attack. Take that risk away, and much of the game is lost.
Rare has stated that they wanted this to be a social pirate game. For that vision to happen and allow for more exploration, PVP must be made an unusual event, not the norm. Yet, it must always be an option or the game becomes boring. This is what I suggest.
Create a "Privateer's Writ" that you can earn via quest. Each player can hold one at a time. You may not attack another pirate team without using a writ. A pirate suggests using the writ to initiate PVP. If the vote passes, PVP is started until one of a few conditions happen.
- One ship is sunk.
- All Pirates on a team are killed at the same time.
- 45 minutes have passed.
If the attacking team looses the defending team get's a writ as a reward. If the attacking team wins, the losing team gets 1/2 hour to retaliate without using a writ.
This game is PvPvE. Just like there shouldn't be any PvE only play, there shouldn't be any PVP only play. Implementing a barrier to PVP by requiring some PVE will hopefully restrict it to worthwhile situations. Yet, since you would never know if the other team had a writ, you would always have fear of attack. You can balance the amount of PVP that occurs through making the writs easier or harder to acquire.
And, just like you can make PVE only servers for those who don't want the full PvPvE experience you can also make PVP only servers without the restrictions for those who want the game to be a blood bath.
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@navarita I agree completely with you about the forts. When I can get through one quick with a solid group they are great. But that hardly ever happens. Usually we get camped on and chased (Edit: after I posted this I've had the best streak ever so take that as you will.)
Every team-up I ever joined into (via random matchups - most my friends work late nights) failed nearly immediatly.And I totally misunderstood their update, I thought they were just adding AI enemies, not as part of an event: “Our first content update, The Hungering Deep, will release in May and bring with it a new AI threat to the world. Crews will have to work together to discover and defeat this threat as part of a unique event.”
So it sounds like we are just getting a mobile fort instance... that you will have to seek out? Which man I guess it’s a good alternative to real people? either way I’m excited for May.
I really do want an update on where Rare’s at in their thinking about Private servers. I totally get the argument someone can make a bot on a private server and just grind their way to supremacy but seems like small fish to me man? There’s gotta he precedent for dealing with those fringe cases right?
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@khaleesibot what would make me drop the want for PVE/invite only sessions and play a lot more would be if we got the all the XP/rep for finding a crate and killing a skeleton when we actually do it and only get gold when we turn in the chests/skulls(merchants fine as it is as it would be silly to get a reward for finding the chicken). This would make PVP players have todo some actual missions, it would lessen the loss to pve players still allowing them to progress, it would stop people jumping from server to server in search of easy loot/rep and it would prevent people like your first pirate legend abusing the system, it would basicly solve a fair few issues and cheer up the pve folk while still keeping it fair for the pvp folk without a split to the player base.
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@nwo-azcrack said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
Dont worry little guy, this game is gonna do great, i have a thousand bucks ready to buy every item when they release microstansactions. Just so i can support the game. You just said you dont give a s*** about rares vision for the game. So ur opinion is invalid
^^
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@pantang
U kno i dont usually like microtansactions. But a game like this where it would be just cosmetic i dont mind. And why not support the devs? -
@nwo-azcrack we already are by paying subscriptions or a £50 fee.... thats quite a lot of support specially considering how little they released with the game most of which I bet has been held back on purpose as there is a lot of clues in the game world I also bet they have high starting fees for all the new content and the ability to buy ingame coins not just cosmetics... Oh not to mention the sheer amount of bugs it has for a top title!
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@pantang
Ill admit it has it problems. And the game is barebones. I dont know about them holding stuff back. If i saw proof, or at least without an explanation, then i would be more reserve. But when the game is complete i feel like this could be a unique game. And im not poor so why not -
@pantang
And honestly bugs dont bother me. I have been though the Fallout and Elder scrolls games just to mention a few. Huge open worlds always have bugs. Yesterday my ship floated 40 feet in the air before almondbeard kicked me from the game. Was it annoying? Yes. But how many pirates can say they have been on a flying ship? -
@nwo-azcrack the purple books will definitely be something in the future, there are posters on a lot of islands for missing pirates which I bet was rescue quests that have been held back as well a long with a few more subtle hints at a story... I would hardly call it huge either you can sail side to side in under ten mins!!! Fallout and Skyrim are in a completely different league to this game though and you know it! 2 of my favourite stories you mentions there :P as for the flying ship check the 2:30 mark i've been there as well it wasn't a server crash when it happened to me mind :( https://youtu.be/dQ1JJSXKOYI
as for having money to waste, you never considered helping a homeless guy or something instead of encouraging greedy business practices and helping studios trash art in the name of profit...
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Lol good post. Maybe they held the content back for a reason tho. Testing, bugs, so many things could be wrong. But if i see proof of it of course i would be less likely to support them. And u are correct about the other games being much bigger, but i was just using examples. Lastly i wanna say i grew up really poor. And i have worked very hard to make myself well off so i would never have that poor feeling again. So i blow stupids amount of money on stupid stuff because lifes short so why not
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@knifelife said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
@logansdadtoo For me its just way to noticeable that they force you into proximity of other ships. I can easily tell when the quests are doing it and being a sloop main it can get tedius.
I have no issues what so ever of bumping into other players or being attacked, but let it happen naturally stop pushing to the same island as the rest off the server. I cant explore if im constantly being forced to the ancient isles where the rest of the ships on the map are. I mean theres no exploration in the game anyway but you get the jist..
The solution is so simple: IF your quest island is blocked off by another ship (or a galleon in proximity): GO TO THE NEXT Outpost without a ship on, Sell all your current loot, Then it DOES NOT MATTER if you get sunk while exploring your quest island!
It amazes me how often Sloops with tons of loot try to go to an island where a galleon is already parked and THEN complain about being sunk.
This level of lack of basic common sense amazes me. -
It feels pretty balanced, even the ones that try to chase me gives up after a while as i easily get away while playing solo if i have lots of loot on me.
But then again i dont understand why when i am by golden Sands outpost or plunder outpost and starts a voyage, i sometimes or almost every time gets a quest near daggertooth outpost! Hehe i thought we got the voyages in the region we was in, when the voyage started. -
@chillvikz said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
It feels pretty balanced, even the ones that try to chase me gives up after a while as i easily get away while playing solo if i have lots of loot on me.
But then again i dont understand why when i am by golden Sands outpost or plunder outpost and starts a voyage, i sometimes or almost every time gets a quest near daggertooth outpost! Hehe i thought we got the voyages in the region we was in, when the voyage started.Low level voyages are mostly nearby. Higher level (starting at 30/35 i saw cross-region destinations) send you all over the map.
Once you get to legendary missions, you have to sail literally everywhere.
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Apologies if anything I post here has been mentioned before, I've just come back from 2 weeks nursing a sore shoulder and haven't yet caught up with many of the posts and feedback on the forums.
I am really glad to see this new category which gives the Community an opportunity to share their ideas and suggestions, many of which come from long experience of playing a huge range of games.
Firstly, I think 'exploration' is a misnomer. I think what Sea of Thieves would benefit from are more opportunities for 'discovery' throughout the world.
If we think about human beings and gamers, and myself particularly, the one thing that gives me great joy is 'discovering' things in games - new things, unknown things, hidden things, mechanics, people, collections, story, areas, events and so on. It is the act of discovery that makes the exploration worthwhile.
So, how can this be implemented in Sea of Thieves?
The world of Sea of Thieves is geographically limited, it has boundaries, so the thrill of exploring new areas isn't necessarily going to be an easy or immediate option, although we have heard in the recent videos that a new region is planned in the near future.
We have islands, small and medium sized, to explore and a vast ocean. However, the thrill of possible discoveries is tempered by the constant risk of being attacked by another ship - there is the permanent feeling that you're safer aboard your ship and mobile on the seas. That spending any great deal of time on land might not be worth the risk of possible combat.
So we have bottles, books and crates of goods, random chests, explosive barrels, odd treasures, easter eggs, shipwrecks and underwater caverns so far.... these are welcome short term rewards for exploration but I don't feel that they are particularly meaningful within the world in their current form... they could be anywhere, on any island at any time.
Being able to answer the question 'Why is x here?' Would go a long way towards adding meaning and being able to make sense of the world - yes a lot of the things we find are flotsam and washed up on shore and the easter eggs provide a sense of mystery with a few clues as to how they arrived there, but in a way, there is too much mystery and too little potential discovery so far.
So, what if - for instance, when a shipwreck is sighted, you 'discovered' that there were more likely to also be crates, chests of goods, treasure items or chests washed up on nearby islands, depending on the purpose of that ship which sank - a merchantman, a treasure seeker, or a privateer, or a skull hunter?
What if - we could browse the bookshelf in the tavern to discover a treatise on the mermaid paintings of Discovery Ridge which would lead to more exploration in finding patterns between those or the sunstones and the islands where they are located?
What if - discovering all of the fish statues, all of the head statues, all of the sunstones, all of the bird paintings led to further revelations or a reward?
Another form of discovery which could encourage exploration might be narrative discovery. The story and lore behind the people who were and are now inhabiting Sea of Thieves. We have some lore already in the form of the brief conversations we have with the NPC's in the outposts, and from the book; Tales from the Sea of Thieves.
So, what if - conversations about the different factions weren't limited to just the relevant NPC, but we could get opinions and information from other NPC's about those factions - when they arrived, what they're doing, are they to be trusted, why we should even bother to engage with them?
What if, some of the quests we were sent on involved activating a particular monument, artefact or painting on the islands, so we could choose when skeleton bosses spawned rather than predictably approach an island and there they are. This would add more depth to the OoS quests as well as welcome variety.
(Some of the most fun boss hunts are on the larger islands where you hear the music, which promotes anticipation but you have to search for the precise location. Sailing along to a small one and seeing them lined up on the beach is less thrilling and too predictable.)What if, there were random NPC's to be discovered who could tell you tales or guide you to certain places where they knew there was something to be discovered? A buried chest for example without a map, but text/chat instructions only? This NPC needn't be a permanent fixture, but someone who travels the world much the same as we do, but perhaps someone wiser and with more knowledge.
What if, some of the paintings, statues, locations could be triggered by a specific act - raising a lantern, playing music, firing a weapon, striking a rock, walking past in a specific direction, jumping in the water, swimming through an archway?
What if - some of the merchant quests actually involved delivering the items to a specific NPC who you could engage with and briefly chat to, to find out the why's and wherefore's of the package you'd spent considerable time hunting down?
Something else I've enjoyed in rpg games, is the discovery of content - so one I remember distinctly was in Rift and wandering up a mountain, as you do, finding a circle of dancing squirrels.. just randomly up there.
More sea life is something that has also been fairly high up on the Community voting thread and the inclusion of these skeleton thrones shows us that Rare are cognizant of the desire for more discovery opportunities through content.Sea of Thieves is already good at giving us mechanics to play with and discover, the exploding barrels and shooting ourselves out of cannons, different ways to sail and battle for instance.
Fishing and everything which that implies.
What if - there were certain species native to particular islands, particular stretches of water? Nocturnal creatures, dawn and dusk feeding creatures, creatures that lived in holes, caves and under rocks? Gold hoarding creatures, bottle collecting creatures, those who collected piles of wood, shiny bottles, bananas even and discovering those, led to access to the resources. A nature diary logbook to be completed just for the thrill of sighting these rare inhabitants of land and sea.
What if - you had the opportunity to randomly come across a conclave of mermaids? Even just the whisk of their tails as they departed? That some of the underwater areas contained changing evidence of inhabitation? That you had the chance to find rare and beautiful objects left behind?
What if - you had the random possibility of walking/running/acting in a certain way and you fell through a random hole, off a random bridge, under a random rockfall and this led to hidden areas or different ways of accessing existing areas?
What if - there were skeletons, remains, other than pirates, where you could discover, decipher or generally find out a little about the reason for their demise? Why is there no hermit remains in the hermit cave on Smuggler's Bay?!
I think I've probably written enough here. What I like to think about, rather than broad brushstrokes, is what opportunities will fit within Sea of Thieves as it is now, in the world which Rare envisage but which will provide enough incentive for pirates to get off their ships and actually walk, swim and fly out into the world for the pure joy of discovering something new and interesting and makes it worth taking that risk to do so.
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@seedy-platypus Thank you. I have read a lot of posts here and yours is the first by a PvP player to offer a solution. Going by your game tag I'll assume you are a fellow Aussie.
Rather than take any advice or credibility from those that just say "Git Gud". W*F is that c**p? "Git" isn't a shorter way of saying "Get" and "Gud" hardly resembles "Good".
To them I say get educated. Drop the console controller and do your homework.Fair winds and happy sailing. :)
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I have run into a bug.. so normally when you shoot a guy in the forehead with a Blunderbuss he gets nocked back and as a result falls off of ship ladders.. ever since the Blunderbuss nerf I encountered a situation where me and another crew mate shot a person point blank with a. Blunderbuss each while an enemy was on the ladder and he did not get pushed, staggered, or nicked back then our other crew ate foreheads him again as he finally got to the deck and yet again he did not get staggered in any form. This is a HUGE issue when it happens to me but not others and gives unfair advantages. The Blunderbuss nerf is WAY more RNG now and way more unfunny. I would 100% rather have the close up headshot oneshots with a lot less RNG than the full on RNG junk we have now. The ladder stagger needs fixed.
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multiple times today i was attacked by players while on voyages, they would attack me after i get to the island and leave my ship. private servers are a much needed part of this game. giving players the choice of fighting other gamers or playing the game how they want to. The fact that any griefer can force their way on you is ruining this game. and ive had all my chests stolen every time i ran into other playsers.
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@searphoenix6051 Learn to play smart, there are several posts on here that gives hints about playing solo.
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@fatbeardedguy42 said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
@knifelife said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
@logansdadtoo For me its just way to noticeable that they force you into proximity of other ships. I can easily tell when the quests are doing it and being a sloop main it can get tedius.
I have no issues what so ever of bumping into other players or being attacked, but let it happen naturally stop pushing to the same island as the rest off the server. I cant explore if im constantly being forced to the ancient isles where the rest of the ships on the map are. I mean theres no exploration in the game anyway but you get the jist..
The solution is so simple: IF your quest island is blocked off by another ship (or a galleon in proximity): GO TO THE NEXT Outpost without a ship on, Sell all your current loot, Then it DOES NOT MATTER if you get sunk while exploring your quest island!
It amazes me how often Sloops with tons of loot try to go to an island where a galleon is already parked and THEN complain about being sunk.
This level of lack of basic common sense amazes me.All I can say to this reply is... read the title! Its a feeeeeeedback thread. Im quite aware of how the game mechanics work ive been playing for roughly 6 to 9 months.. And very rarely get sunk or have my loot taken. It doesnt mean the game couldnt do with some tweaking in certain areas.. once again hence the title of the thread.
As you put it so gracefully, This lack of common sense amazes me.
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@jam-esoteric said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
I really want an offline mode for a more passive experience.
100% Agree
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@hudson-rl said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 3:
What exploration? I found an underwater cave on an uncharted island. It felt really cool. I expected to find something special. Maybe even a special chest guarded by a skeleton captain or giant spider etc. Unfortunately it was empty. Felt like I was completely wasting time.
Yeah, I feel you. Finding a place like that gets your hopes up for a unique voyage or a real mystery to solve or a hidden secret place of treasure to find.
But being empty like that is disappointing and it just feels weird.Hopefully they do add unique quests or discoverable cosmetics or ancient monsters(very hard to beat -not beefed up skellies-) to the world.
Point- Give reasons to actually sail around and go exploring every nook and cranny (without having to have an active voyage), because you can find stuff to interact with.
-Try adding things to FIND and unlock(Which doesn't throw off PvP balance of course but make areas to explore accessible maybe like diving equipment or stuff that reveal secrets. Or stuff that would add more Variety to fights while keeping it balanced.)
People like finding things that can be used. :P
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So to start my feedback, I would like to honestly say that while I avoid battle royale style games and hardcore pvp based titles like EVE, I found a lot of enjoyment in this game being a PvP/PvE focused world. I think player conflict is a major part in the game’s appeal and to remove it from the game is a silly proposition. I have sank 18 ships on a galleon with 3 other talented and well coordinated people, 2 in which are PC players using Xbox controllers (they manage to beat mouse players some how). When we were against the wind, our friend and I discussed carebears and we did conclude that PvE servers would be a good thing for both communities. It’s hardly fun to sink ships so easily, when galleons give up because they’re that passive. While my crew’s playstyle is defensive, we embrace every battle with adrenaline and excitement. We just wish our opponents had the same in mind rather than giving up because PvE is all they do. I think people who hate PvP are missing out on the opportunity to make great connections and allies, but who am I kidding? Only jerks would force people to play the game their way. Give the lasses and lads ther’ PvE server, I’ll be here sinking ships and taunting with my microphone in a cheesy pirate accent.