Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.

Exactly!!! We don't NEED just strait upgrades like more damage and more health. We can have upgrades and still keep the game completely fair.

I personally am totally fine with the way it is now. I just wish there were more stuff in terms of showing of your adventures.
We need sone kind of treasure hideout where other players can have a look at the stuff you hace accomplished.
Player housing? Player Boating?

SoT is absolutely a game where the expression "Easy to learn, a challenge to master" applies, as every system in the game is simple to engage but has tons of hidden depth to its usage.

Non-cosmetic progression already exists in the game via mastering the aforementioned depth. We already have veteran solo players who can sink galleons with a crew of 4 on them, a testament to just how much personal skill means in this game.

Adding advantage via progression on top of that would not only be overkill, but it would also place newer players at a much larger disadvantage than they're already at. If it was non-cosmetic, you'd get to the point where the players that did the most grinding the hardest would be untouchable and anyone else just starting out would be easily crushed and discouraged from playing any longer as a result.

@therealdestian said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

SoT is absolutely a game where the expression "Easy to learn, a challenge to master" applies, as every system in the game is simple to engage but has tons of hidden depth to its usage.

Non-cosmetic progression already exists in the game via mastering the aforementioned depth. We already have veteran solo players who can sink galleons with a crew of 4 on them, a testament to just how much personal skill means in this game.

Adding advantage via progression on top of that would not only be overkill, but it would also place newer players at a much larger disadvantage than they're already at. If it was non-cosmetic, you'd get to the point where the players that did the most grinding the hardest would be untouchable and anyone else just starting out would be easily crushed and discouraged from playing any longer as a result.

This all sounds like you're concerned with PvP. Based on your response it doesn't appear that you read my post.

In my post, I'm talking about a progression that grants certain advantages in doing quests or Player vs AI Enemy combat. Why shouldn't someone who has ground thru quest after quest of digging up treasure not be able to dig a little faster than someone who hasn't? How would that crush and discourage anyone from playing? I personally don't care if a "legandary" pirate could levitate a chest out of the ground without touching a shovel or kill a skeletal pirate captain in one hit. I would be in awe and strive to do that one day myself.

@yendor78 said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

In my post, I'm talking about a progression that grants certain advantages in doing quests or Player vs AI Enemy combat. Why shouldn't someone who has ground thru quest after quest of digging up treasure not be able to dig a little faster than someone who hasn't? How would that crush and discourage anyone from playing? I personally don't care if a "legandary" pirate could levitate a chest out of the ground without touching a shovel or kill a skeletal pirate captain in one hit. I would be in awe and strive to do that one day myself.

It's all part of the same system, though: how quickly you dig up chests determines how long you have to stay on the island, which in turn determines how much time enemy players have to spot you and come attack you.

Being better at the PvE portion inadvertently makes you better at the PvP, since they're both intertwined.

While I still think "sidegrades" are the way to go, I'd be happy with better cosmetic options than simple pallet swaps. Give us different hull/sail shapes, distinct weapon models, captain's cabin furniture, etc. None of these would provide a real advantage, but they would greatly increase the amount of variety.

That all may be coming in future updates, but I do feel that for a game with "cosmetic only" progression it launched with a pretty weak selection.

@sssaturnineee said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

While I still think "sidegrades" are the way to go, I'd be happy with better cosmetic options than simple pallet swaps. Give us different hull/sail shapes, distinct weapon models, captain's cabin furniture, etc. None of these would provide a real advantage, but they would greatly increase the amount of variety.

That all may be coming in future updates, but I do feel that for a game with "cosmetic only" progression it launched with a pretty weak selection.

Sidegrades could be the one area this could work, so long as they're definitely sidegrades.

TF2 used sidegrades to good effect. They just need to watch out to ensure they're properly balanced.

It's all part of the same system, though: how quickly you dig up chests determines how long you have to stay on the island, which in turn determines how much time enemy players have to spot you and come attack you.

In your first post, you were arguing that there are solo players that can sink galleons with a crew of 4 on them. You're arguing for personal skill.

Finding and sinking an unmanned anchored ship doesn't seem to support the use of skill. Digging slower or faster isn't a matter of skill though it might reduce a handicap. After departure and once again upon the waves, the fight is equal and skill is at play. Hence Pirate code Article 3 Disputes Are Settled upon the Waves.

Being better at the PvE portion inadvertently makes you better at the PvP, since they're both intertwined.

How so? You can should be able to adjust the damage modifiers on NPCs without affecting PvP if they're intertwined, if not, that was just lazy again on from a programming standpoint and should be corrected.

The OP is my hero. What great suggestions.

While an argument could be made for "being better at PvE makes PvP easier" it's a weak one.

I love these suggestions. Love it.

It requires thought about what to equip based on the mission and it makes some of our decisions have reasoning.

The "cosmetic only" upgrades are going to wear out quickly since we don't even get to see a lot of the cosmetics we buy.

@zyrkal said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

@yendor78
There is 2 important reason why items are not better.

• First : like said before, yes the "newbe" friendly
• Second and most important : If i want to be an ugly old pirate i don't want to be forced to use a gold bucket... it doesn't fit my pirate character. I want the ugliest bucket super old whith hole in it. BUT no i have to use a super shiny bucket because it's stronger ...

It doesn't have to be that way - perhaps each item is given an upgrade slot.

That slot can be used with trinkets from the Guilds that have those effects. That would allow you to use whatever item you wish.

Granted, your bucket with a hole is likely going to be less effective than any other bucket design. Just sayin.

There's only one issue. The brighter the light, the vulnerable you make yourself in the eyes of those that cross your path. You will get a target on your back, amongst the rest of them, as soon as you use the lantern within vicinity of the right type of players and in this game due the variety of features it has, the probability is very high.

I would suggest otherwise if there was more features to balance out the odds, but currently that pool is very small. A lot smaller than those which encourage pure PvP. This game needs a lot more fantasy-first options in the PvE side to deliver the balance. Griefing is the number one area and dealing with it properly works as a platform for a magnificent challenge for both PvE and PvP players alike to enjoy.

Trust me. You don't want a brighter lantern. Couple % more light might not be recognisable from the horison, even with the spyglass, but it doesn't help you either due the way some features are coded; even though your brain may tell you otherwise. Same thing with the rifle. There's a reason why the scope has a crack in it.

Everything is designed very carefully and that is what I recognise and value highly. You need a clear tactical advantage that everyone shares, but are not necessarily able to utilise at the right moment. Here's why:

If you want to hide a tree, put it into a forest.

After several years of rpg elements and power creeping we got a game without this stuff where personal skill beats everything and now people crying to get that overused system back because they cant engage a game without this stuff anymore.

The horizontal progression is fine. Go play Division or Destiny.

@finanzminister said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

After several years of rpg elements and power creeping we got a game without this stuff where personal skill beats everything and now people crying to get that overused system back because they cant engage a game without this stuff anymore.

Some people just fear the unknown coz they suddenly feel they don't know how to play. Give them some slack, yes? They'll do just fine in a moment when they discover that the result is still the same.

I was bad at PvP around the first Destiny. Then I got Destiny 2 and found out that I wasn't as bad as I was before. Heck, I don't even know for sure if I ever was that bad as I thought I was. The first D2 Iron Banner list really helped me to control those points too. I hated it the most in D1. Now I love it. ^^

The horizontal progression is fine. Go play Division or Destiny.

No no no, don't advise players to do that. I mean they are good games and fun, but the experience is what educates us here too. Help the dear ducklings and they learn the difference in practise soon enough. In the end, the result doesn't change anyway so...

Ganbatte!

@yendor78 said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

It's all part of the same system, though: how quickly you dig up chests determines how long you have to stay on the island, which in turn determines how much time enemy players have to spot you and come attack you.

In your first post, you were arguing that there are solo players that can sink galleons with a crew of 4 on them. You're arguing for personal skill.

Finding and sinking an unmanned anchored ship doesn't seem to support the use of skill. Digging slower or faster isn't a matter of skill though it might reduce a handicap. After departure and once again upon the waves, the fight is equal and skill is at play. Hence Pirate code Article 3 Disputes Are Settled upon the Waves.

Being better at the PvE portion inadvertently makes you better at the PvP, since they're both intertwined.

How so? You can should be able to adjust the damage modifiers on NPCs without affecting PvP if they're intertwined, if not, that was just lazy again on from a programming standpoint and should be corrected.

Again, it's part of the whole package: killing skeletons faster = less time spent at skeleton forts = less time you can be attacked by other players.

If they're going to add actual upgrades to the game, they'd need to be in an area that affects absolutely nothing that touches the combat, and I can't think of anything that falls under that category in SoT (at least for now).

@zyrkal The upgrades wouldn't have to be tied to the looks... As you progress thru the ranks you could gain upgraded performance and still have a choice aesthetically.

Again, it's part of the whole package: killing skeletons faster = less time spent at skeleton forts = less time you can be attacked by other players.

If they're going to add actual upgrades to the game, they'd need to be in an area that affects absolutely nothing that touches the combat, and I can't think of anything that falls under that category in SoT (at least for now).

@therealdestian All your arguments keep pointing back to getting attacked while stoped somewhere. To me, this is one of the least desirable aspects of the game. Even if there is no treasure on your ship and you're clearly not involved in head to head PvP combat. Spending less time at a fortress or digging up treasure doesn't give you an advantage, it removes a disadvantage and everyone would have the same opportunity to earn those upgrades. The threat of other ships would still be there, it would just lessen slightly the further you progress.

Sinking an anchored ship with no treasure on it does nothing but annoy the person whos ship you sunk. The person/crew doing the sinking gets no reward for it, the person whos ship got sunk isn't out anything but time. So all you're doing by extending this is making the game feel more "grindy". I'm all for a good ship battle on the seas, I love the ship to ship combat, but spending a good deal of time exploring islands only to come back and find a mermaid where my empty ship once sat is just annoying, it really doesn't add anything to the game.

I guess this is where we can part ways. I would prefer to enjoy all aspects of the game and do missions that progress my character. Not spend all my time "griefing" or being "griefed" by other players and having my progress slowed by people just being a*****s in general. If that's how this game is always going to be I'll move on to something else. You'll be left with a world of people just sailing around looking for anchored ships to sink.

@finanzminister said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

After several years of rpg elements and power creeping we got a game without this stuff where personal skill beats everything and now people crying to get that overused system back because they cant engage a game without this stuff anymore.

The horizontal progression is fine. Go play Division or Destiny.

Personal skill has nothing to do with how fast you dig up treasure in this game. You can be the best SoT player on the planet, and I'll challenge you to a treasure digging contest any day. We would tie because skill has nothing to do with it.

I'm fine with a completely level playing field as far as combat is concerned. Where skill is your only advantage.

I would just prefer to have a goal to go after in non-PvP besides just a slightly different looking [shovel,lantern,compass].

@yendor78 what does have digging chest to do with pvp?

Edit: Well even digging chests does balance how log you stay on the island so its pvp relevent aswell, decreasing digging time by using gold shovels would cause saver PvE for more experience players hence would effect other people negatively.

In other words, power creeping.

decreasing digging time by using gold shovels would cause saver PvE for more experience players hence would effect other people negatively.

Whut... Lol

Sorry, I don't see shorting the window for people to attack an anchored ship as a bad thing. That argument was brought up previously and I just don't agree with it.

That's affecting people negatively? That's the cry? "He was able to get on his ship and make the fight fair, I wanted to be able to blast him while he was waiting thru the repetitive digging animation."

@finanzminister said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

After several years of rpg elements and power creeping we got a game without this stuff where personal skill beats everything and now people crying to get that overused system back because they cant engage a game without this stuff anymore.

The horizontal progression is fine. Go play Division or Destiny.

For me the "RPG elements" aren't so much that I want to not engage without it - it just gives me something to do. A sense of accomplishment.

I don't necessarily think it needs to have "power creep" - but we need something more than overpriced cosmetics that you can't see anyhow. I'd be for our characters gaining strength versus the PvE scenarios - not heavy handed, but maybe have weapons that impact or put status effects on AI enemies ... but are 100% standard versus other players. Since these are mythical creatures like skeletons - it could be fit into the lore of the world.

I don't necessarily know the middle ground option - but we need something that we can invest into that impacts our play.

Heck, even if I could enhance my shovel so it takes one less dig ... anything to feel my character is progressing feels good.

@captainsloopdog i wont disagree, i see you have good points, but imho i am convinced that not every game needs progression and rpg elrments. Even it would fit.

@yendor78 My biggest concern would be how this impacts matchmaking. If you have to play with random people, this kind of opens up the game to further abuses of new players. The more valuable a person is because they're able to better accomplish the PvE tasks, the more groups may start to favor those players and actively seek them out. New players end up in the brig if they try to join a group because they don't dig fast enough, or can't bring any special abilities to the table that help the group. Advanced players would have even less incentive to play with new people.

Personally, I think progression needs to be experience-based. I'd love to see them overhaul the voyage system so voyages are more story-based with islands having unique features and events that can be strung together into random adventures. The higher level you go, the harder and more complex voyages get. This also encourages more balance in the PvP. Since character and ship progression is largely cosmetic, you can usually get an idea of where in the game a person is by the cosmetics they apply to their character and their ship. As voyages get more complex, crews will be holding on to treasures and artifacts that are necessary for the voyage longer, making them a better target for piracy than newer players whose voyages would be much simpler and faster, so they aren't carting around valuables as long and what they do have would be worth less.

@finanzminister said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

@captainsloopdog i wont disagree, i see you have good points, but imho i am convinced that not every game needs progression and rpg elrments. Even it would fit.

Well, considering GTAV Online's "RPG elements" are truly just window dressing - I would agree ... you don't need progression.

BUT -- GTAV has tons of stuff to invest into, a bunch of vehicles of different types to buy, clothing, buildings, etc.

We don't have that many options here - nor will we if they keep their current design philosophy.

For the most part progression stops as well in these games. You get good and then what? Well, then people complain about lack of "end game" content.

So --- I do agree. I think progression in a traditional RPG context is not the best solution. But, @Yendor78 is suggesting that we be sold items (or add-ons to items) that might increase their effectiveness in certain ways.

So long as these add ons are limited per item - I can only see this as a benefit to the game.

Yes, exactly! I had mentioned this a while back as well.. like fixing that damn 'crack' on the sniper haha. It doesn't have to have stats! Love this post man.

In the first closed beta scale test. I was the first of my friends to purchase any items. I got the admirals bucket. I couldn't wait to try it out because I thought it would bail faster. No difference, after that everyone on the crew made fun of my fancy expensive bucket.

Next, I got the admirals eye of reach. There were like, did they at least fix the damn crack? I was like nope. The exact same thing just skinned a little different.

I get not affecting PvP. I understand a crew with faster bailing buckets would be virtually unsinkable. I understand these things are hard to balance, but I just want some kind of reward other than something of a different color/style.

I mean heck if that's all there is, I should have just pre-ordered and got the black dog pirate pack because I like the style of it better than any you can purchase. Then I am done... that's it got the outfit I wanted... game over.

People keep bringing up the crack in the spyglass. I thought the whole point of that was it's a thematic way of adding a crosshair to the scope without it looking like a modern gun. I'm not sure why you'd want to get rid of it.

@triipmiller said in Strictly Horizontal (cosmetic) progression.:

@yendor78 Agree completely. It seems you play for title of legend, without actually becoming a pirate legend.

Throughout history, anyone who has achieved a Legendary status amongst their peers started from the same place as everyone else. Noone has 'special powers' they just used what they had available to the common man in ways that pushed them further than others in their desired field.

Same with this game. I think it makes a change to be honest. It's not the same as every other game I play where I simply crush those who have played for less time than myself, or accomplish the same task ten times as fast or get more reward simply for being 'higher Lv'.

[edit] - sidenote, wouldn't aiming be harder with a non cracked scope? the cracks line up dead centre, I use it to aim.