[Mega Thread] - Death Cost

  • I would rather there be a bigger penalty for scuttling a ship than dying. As it stands, people just scuttle their ship to refill the ship's supplies back to default.

    If you're dead, and your boat has sunk, I think the ferry dude should give you an option to select a random, nearby location for a fee. If you don't want to pay the fee, you can get dropped off at a completely remote location, ideally far from where you died. Maybe even add 10-20 seconds to the respawn timer if they choose the free option. This would help mitigate the current issue of people grief spawning over and over. If they want to do it, it will cost them.

  • @khaleesibot thanks for the update but this does not change my view that this is a very bad idea.

  • @khaleesibot said in [Mega Thread] - Death Cost:

    Thanks for all the passionate responses on this, we appreciate you keeping us on our toes and helping ensure Sea Of Thieves stays a warm and inviting place to play!

    Please note, we never intended to charge players for PvP related deaths, as we understand the negative impact this would have on player experience.

    We understand that this addition to the release notes was a little confusing, and in the future we will ensure that any future updates we discuss give you a better understanding of how and why we're implementing it. Sea of Thieves is constantly evolving, and any feature we will test, monitor data and listen to your feedback to ensure we're making the right decisions.

    That's good to hear! :) Thank goodness, I thought people can keep griefing to bankrupt a player, Glad that you won't be charged for PvP related deaths.

  • If this is only environment based deaths that give you a penalty that's fine.
    I think that people need to be more attached to their ships, right now they are essentially one of two things.

    1. A floating box to put your loot in.
    2. A disposable floating box to ram other boats while carrying powder kegs.

    There is no attachment to your ship, you can mistreat it without any penalty.

  • Thanks for the update.

    This will keep players from dying and playing smart instead of running into skeletons and just swing their sword till they die and repeat.
    Thank goodness this won't charge for PvP deaths. :)
    TIP: You can dodge by holding block when you have your cutlass out and move left or right.

  • @khaleesibot i'm glad to see it won't be applied to PvP deaths, as that would increase or encourage griefing. however this mechanic is still going to punish smaller crews and newer players. there are times doing Order of Souls quests where five skeletons will spawn all with guns. A lot of the time you cannot dodge or interrupt their attacks in a meaningful way so you are going to die. Sometimes they can still shoot you through rocks/the environment.

    I think Rare should come up with other content/ways of sinking gold in the game than needlessly taking it away from players when - unless you're able to do and 'win' skeleton forts - getting gold is already a pretty tedious grind.

  • I think the mechanics you have in place are great already. You can't please all the people all the time. The death cost is going to get the single players to stop playing and it's going to discourage new comers not to play and not to buy when they are taxed for learning the game. I have several friends that died 10 times last night just trying to get used to the mechanics of the game. They weren't grieving about it either, just learning.

  • @prime-of-war

    I’m saying that, if a death cost is implemented, that is the best way it should be due to the current issues of spawn camping. I am entirely against the idea of a death cost at all, but Rare has shown that they like their system, and therefore, I tried to find a solution that still had a death cost.

  • @khaleesibot Death penalties are a terrible idea. I bought this game because there were no penalties except the risk of losing the stuff you haven't turned in yet as well as everyone being on a level playing field, no matter if newbie or veteran and enjoy the world without being forced into a grind.

    Changing the game's philosophy now (you stated before the gold would be safe once you had it) would do no good. There are way too many games where penalties are the norm, people that really like those can easily go and play such games instead. I'm here to have fun, not to be frustrated to no end.
    Items are way too expensive as it is (especially for casual players - in earlier betas item prices were at least tiered starting from cheap to expensive so people could always get something new and have a sense of accomplishment after a couple of voyages - with the high prices that feeling isn't there anymore), adding another gold sink and enabling griefers to cause you to lose your gold to boot is not a good thing.
    Also, getting punished for "silly deaths" would be a complete game breaker. Why? "Silly deaths" are one of the most hilarious and fun things in this game! For example, last night we were on a treasure hunt on an island with a random crew, my pirate found a gunpoweder keg and carried it to the others, who were just engaged fighting some skeletons. My pirate said "look what I found" and the keg got hit in the crossfire and exploded, killing everyone. We laughed our behinds off on the Ferry of the Damned before returning to the land of the living. It was a fun experience! If there was a death penalty, I'm sure nobody would have laughed, people would feel grief, everyone would have been angry and it would have likely caused the crew to disband and possibly motivated some new players to never play again.

    However, I wouldn't mind that if you die, you can get a quick task from the ferry captain like taking a bucket and removing some water from the deck, setting sails, angling sails, repairing something or firing a cannon and be allowed off the ferry quicker (the wait time to get off without doing anything could be increased a bit, currently I feel it's a bit too short to even start a proper conversation with other dead players anyhow). Each task could also give reputation levels with the Ferry of the Damned which would grant some cool titles like Dread Pirate, ghostly appearance, skeleton pirate appearance, zombie pirate appeareance, etc. to use in the real world, etc.

    Also, you said you don't want to punish PVP deaths, but only PVE deaths. But what if a PVPer sinks your ship and a shark eats you? There is lots of griefing potential here still, and griefers will always find creative ways to grief people.

    Just toss the idea of death penalties into the garbage bin. It isn't needed.

    PS.: By the way, has anybody considered that if you die enough and have less gold left than the cheapest voyage for your current level, you can't even buy a quest anymore to earn more gold (if you aren't on the starter tier where you get free voyages, that is)?

  • A small fee should be possible if there is a choice as well. Meaning; when died the ferryman should give the option to let you return to your ship for a small(er) fee so you might choose to defend the ship or for a larger fee close to the ship on the nearest island for example.
    Or a combination including below scenario.

    I understand the spawn killing irritations as I experienced myself all too well and my main concern is the frustration of loosing the time spend hunting treasures and then loosing them due to dying. It's difficult to find a good solution for this. Perhaps an alternative is to have a lockbox on board to store an x amount of treasure. This can be unlocked by other pirates but might take longer.
    In combination with respawning the died pirate is "involnerable" for an x amount of time to assess the situation.

    Result; part of treasure is saved, returning pirate has ability to defend ship and griefers are discouraged to spawn kill.

    My motivation for having a return fee is due to the easy head on encounters I see, and sometimes do, with skellies etc. Bursting at a group of skellies in the mindset; "hack 'em as long as I can" is not really a tactic move but as it has no penalty it's easy to perform these type of actions.

    So to give more advantage on being carefull doing fights and to make pirate think twice before suicide gunpowerbarrel themselves on another ship a penalty could balance this behaviour. I do doubt if gold is the corrent penalty mechanism. I think deduction of reputation with the companies has more weight in certain situations.

    (I know I'm not making friends with the above statements but I do believe that correctly applying a death/action penalty can contribute to a less toxic experience).

  • @khaleesibot
    Dude, this is going to make so many people mad. Both pve and PvP people. If you wanted to pull the two groups that hate each other together then this is a good way to do it.

    I think I know why though. You just don’t want players getting gold too fast and getting to the end game too fast. You did a horrible job with that. You should have just made voyages give you less gold. This death tax is just dumb

  • @kryptyx1
    I think the best fix for this, which has already been given by others, is that when you scuttle the ship it doesn't spawn with any supplies onboard, so you can't immediately set out and attack and have to spend some time gathering.

    The same could be said for the death penalty, if there is the 'need' to punish players for certain sorts of deaths, removing their held supplies is a good way to do it. Again, costing the player time and opportunity cost, without punishing those that were just having fun too harshly.

  • I'm usually all for an added difficulty. Death penalty is just a terrible idea for this game though. If you're trying to combat people abusing skeleton forts there are other ways about it. An example is if the crew just sits on the ship and bombards the island without setting foot on it then the boss doesn't spawn. Problem solved people can't just cheap the island then. Some crews like to just be silly and have fun to escape the grind for a bit and the death tax would hurt that gameplay.

  • @hudson-rl 100% agree that tax on sunken ships should be in place before any death tax takes priority. If you steal a ship it should become your ship after a short time. No scuttling. No respawning of said crew onto your newly owned ship. Maybe even have a flag or claim timer so the stolen ship could be contested before its lost? Right now, scuttling is an arbitrary exploit. Ship stealing is piracy. Why can we not steal ships in a game about piracy? HUGE ISSUE. Simple solution. FIX IT RARE. Most everything else is great.

  • hmm why not implement the option to increase the death cost by myself for getting some short buffs from the ferryman.

    could be a option to get over spawn campers...

  • Just seen the edit regarding no charge for Pvp deaths, no this is still not the solution. Add another currency just for deaths but you can't make the main thrust of the game gold grinding and then invent a way to artificially extend it even further.

    The only cost to death should be respawn time really, try and make it fun! Doing chores for the ferryman is a good idea here.

  • I don't think this is going to be a problem in the close future, when we swim in doublons nobody will care.

    The real problem is there are not cons for ship scuttle to replenish resources.

  • @khaleesibot said in [Mega Thread] - Death Cost:

    Thanks for all the passionate responses on this, we appreciate you keeping us on our toes and helping ensure Sea Of Thieves stays a warm and inviting place to play!

    Please note, we never intended to charge players for PvP related deaths, as we understand the negative impact this would have on player experience.

    We understand that this addition to the release notes was a little confusing, and in the future we will ensure that any future updates we discuss give you a better understanding of how and why we're implementing it. Sea of Thieves is constantly evolving, and any feature we will test, monitor data and listen to your feedback to ensure we're making the right decisions.

    Thanks for the quick and courteous reply, especially given there are plenty of competing priorities for all of you at the moment!
    I can't forsee any situation in which I'd think a Death tax would be a good addition to SoT, but a fuller description of the implementation and intent behind it would certainly have helped shape the debate here.

  • This is terrible idea and will only punish newer players. I know you say you don't mean for PvP kills to result in a loss, but, I guarantee you people will find a way to grief people into losing their money.

    The only 'fee' for dying should be a fee of convenience. Want that ferry to hurry their a*s up? Pay him some money and spawn faster. Or if you want to penalize people (and I don't even know why you want to do this) for dying, have the respawn timers differ.

  • So the death tax is for doing the fort/raids? For all Solo players how hard is it to Solo these raid/forts?

  • @knifelife Agree on the ship, 100% if there is no sink tax for when your ship sinks, then the ship should not spawn with any resources and or further away from where they sink then is currently implemented.

  • @khaleesibot SOOOO..... on top of mobs resetting if everyone dies or if you are solo and die, we will also have to pay to respawn and start the battle all over from scratch?

  • Its just a bad idea... I see no reason for it being in the game. How many times have we needed to kill ourselves to get rid of a bug? So im to be punished now for being new or playing alone? Unless its 1 gold and a maximum of 5 gold, its a trash idea that should have never even been thought of.

    Rare, do not add this, it will hurt your game... Badly...

  • Absolutely not. Period. I don't need to explain my reasons; they've all been discussed much more in-depth above.

  • @teamhilgo said in [Mega Thread] - Death Cost:

    This is terrible idea and will only punish newer players. I know you say you don't mean for PvP kills to result in a loss, but, I guarantee you people will find a way to grief people into losing their money.

    The only 'fee' for dying should be a fee of convenience. Want that ferry to hurry their a*s up? Pay him some money and spawn faster. Or if you want to penalize people (and I don't even know why you want to do this) for dying, have the respawn timers differ.

    Seems like the only sensable idea honestly.

  • @x1-two said in [Mega Thread] - Death Cost:

    Here's an idea, a crazy one: Make surviving rewarding instead of dying discouraging.

    This is where it is at!

  • @khaleesibot
    If this feature is PVE only it makes even less sense. What problem is this intended to solve?

    I'll re-iterate: Why don't you wait until the cash shop is implemented in a few months, and get some metrics on how often it's used VS grinded gold before implementing artificial inhibitors that serve no other purpose?

    At least to some extent this effectively removes the incentive to consume the existing content (Kraken, Skull Forts, Order of Souls quests), AND puts a penalty on just screwing around and having fun (jumping off cliffs, playing with gunpowder barrels, shooting yourself out of cannons, fighting skeletons, etc.).

    Right now if we decide to mess with our friends, by say sailing away while they're getting chased by sharks or shooting a barrel they're running towards, it's all in good fun and we can laugh it off. If they start losing money then it's just going to cause rage.

    I don't see that this feature has any productive gameplay purpose. It serves to burn up money, but I don't see why that's necessary at this point.

    If you want to help make this a constructive discussion maybe you can tell the community what problem this change is meant to address. Ask the @Rare-Employee that suggested it and signed off what prompted it, and let the community know. I really can't figure it out.

    ...unless it IS just an artificial gold sink to drive future cash shop sales (which is being implemented now to deflect that conclusion, and allow the resentment to fade over the next few months), in which case: #Don'tBeEvil

  • @maamar I totally agree. Currently spawning within sight of the victors doesn't allow the victors much time to say collect loot or whatever. Also would help the loser not be hunted down upon every spawn. The death cost will also discourage the very shenanigans that make the game fun. No one will want to say try jumping the ravine when we can go all the way around and not die. It will make pve play a little stagnant in my opinion. If the price is real low, maybe but then why bother at that point? I say hard no.

  • @l3g3nd4rymuff1n i got sunk yesterday in my sloop (i know gg hard mode blah blah) they sunk me without much effort, i wasnt going to fight back as i had nothing on my ship to fight for, got the usual abuse shouted at me, when i died i scuttled my ship while on the ferry, i respawn in and i can see the ship that killed me at the outpost (was galleons grave which is very recognizable from a distance, not 30 seconds back on my ship i see the galleon coming my way i just logged off after that, what was the point to just be farmed over again

  • I think the dozens of upvotes for the posts that do not want this tax in any way shape or form should speak volumes about the majority of player opinions on this.

    I can see a reasoning for the devs wanting to do this, however. My guess is: Rare doesn't want players gaming the system by using death as a means of quickly teleporting back to the ship, such as drowning oneself after you've missed boarding an enemy ship during battle, instead of finding a mermaid.

    While I can definitely see why Rare would want to punish players who deliberately choose suicide as a means of convenience (that is oh-so-very #lesspirate), I still think there are better ways to do this. I'm posting this in the hopes that someone from Rare will seriously consider the alternative I'd like to present:

    The intent of the players will always be very hard to determine, maybe he drowned because he is brand new to the game and is terrible at swimming, or he let his 8 year old try the game out because he loves watching daddy play. Instead of punishing some deaths with a tax on gold, please consider punishing death with a tax on time or location of respawn.

    If someone dies in a manner that the ferryman considers punishable, they could be punished by being forced to wait double (or even triple) the normal respawn time. This would be inconvenient, and, if your crew is relying on your quick return, could actually end up resulting in losing chests and skulls; but it wouldn't guarantee a permanent loss of time and effort (which is exactly what a gold tax for death is). You could even signify the increased wait timer for respawn by having the door chained, and the player is forced to watch the chains slowly rust and fall off before the door finally opens.

    The other option could be to have the player spawn on a random island (they are marooned). They would now have to search out a mermaid (and perhaps the mermaid arrives twice as far as normal) or hope that their crew happens to be close enough to spot them and coordinate a pickup.

    TLDR: I believe the majority of your community doesn't want this. The players who frequent the forums and post/upvote are the most dedicated and their responses here should speak volumes about how they feel, and the more casual players most definitely don't want to be punished for making mistakes in a game that they are learning entirely by trial and error. I've given a few alternative ways to tax "punishable" deaths, please read my full reply above if you'd like to hear them.

  • I would not like it implemented at this time, IMHO fix the re-spawn issues 1st. then lets talk over a Flask of Rum!

  • I don't see the death penalty mentioned on the update page anymore and they've moved this thread somewhere to die now so I think everyone's opinions were heard and heeded :)
    (correct me if I'm wrong of course)

  • Terrible idea for any death cost. It will make players think twice by shooting themselves out of cannons or just being overall silly if they're worried about fall damage or getting killed my snakes or sharks. It takes away from the fun of the game and doesn't add anything fun so what is the point?

  • It is still a bad idea. The game is about having fun. At the moment I laugh off most deaths. A penalty will just add frustration or hesitation for me doing things that I may find amusing that may kill me. Don't do it. There is no positive impact to the game for doing it.

    Focus on getting content in their ASAP and fixing respawning for PvP situations.

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