@cpt-blackshark said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
@dabomber117 the game is PVEVP there is no solution its open world free for all.
I just think it'd be awesome to be able to open chests. I'm sure you agree with that.
@cpt-blackshark said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
@dabomber117 the game is PVEVP there is no solution its open world free for all.
And I'm not anti-pvp I've been suggesting pvp centric voyages to hunt down other players. I think there should be more objectives in every aspect of the game. But pvp so far feels the most satisfying.
@dabomber117 I really like the idea! That would be cool, this way the pirate ships will be more legendary and purposeful in the course of the game :D
@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
@DaBOMBER117 They literally just said in a video they posted today EVERY SHIP WILL BE MANNED BY ANOTHER PLAYER. They aren't even considering NPC ships as an option.
Oh and regarding ghost ships and you saying that cant be a thing: How do you explain this:
@xxxxnoodlexxxx said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
Fix. Spawn killing. On. Boats.
Temporary invincibility would probably fix it
@dabomber117 said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
@xxxxnoodlexxxx said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
Fix. Spawn killing. On. Boats.
Temporary invincibility would probably fix it
Only if you can kill people off your boat while you're a ghost.
@ogshawnyboy-tt said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
Although I will be playing this game as intended I will pose the question, Is it really PvP if the other player is an unwilling participant?
Non-consensual PvP. Slippery slope.
@laughsmaniacaly while the game does provide a "pure PvPer" with a beautiful "PvE" aspect, it also allows a "Pure PvEer" with an awesome "PvP" aspect. The two are not meant to be separated. It is not within RARE's game design or vision for you to choose a path. Anyone is free to enjoy and focus on the "PvE" aspect of the game, but they are not free to do so without the threat of "PvP". Likewise, anyone is able to focus on the "PvP" aspect of the game, but there are things they will miss out on (customizations, etc) if they do not also engage in the PvE. Also, PvE will sometimes force itself upon them (as you mentioned Kraken, hopefully more intense storms/maelstroms/rogue waves, etc). Anything that divides the two anymore than they already are is going against the core of what the game was created to be. RARE wants you to enjoy their beautiful world, and laugh, and mess around. But they also want you to be aware that you might die while you are doing it.
@son-of-estoras
Sorry mate but i have no idea which post your replying to.
I agree and have said the same in many occasion. The risk in game comes by far from the players and not the in game features (except maybe the kraken) without it the game would be dry and stale.
@son-of-estoras said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
@laughsmaniacaly while the game does provide a "pure PvPer" with a beautiful "PvE" aspect, it also allows a "Pure PvEer" with an awesome "PvP" aspect. The two are not meant to be separated. It is not within RARE's game design or vision for you to choose a path. Anyone is free to enjoy and focus on the "PvE" aspect of the game, but they are not free to do so without the threat of "PvP". Likewise, anyone is able to focus on the "PvP" aspect of the game, but there are things they will miss out on (customizations, etc) if they do not also engage in the PvE. Also, PvE will sometimes force itself upon them (as you mentioned Kraken, hopefully more intense storms/maelstroms/rogue waves, etc). Anything that divides the two anymore than they already are is going against the core of what the game was created to be. RARE wants you to enjoy their beautiful world, and laugh, and mess around. But they also want you to be aware that you might die while you are doing it.
I imagine the kraken, once spawned, will attack players in the vicinity or spawn where players are at. I doubt it will stalk players to the ends of the map, forcing them to scuttle or log out. Then again, I imagine even the kraken has standards.
Given Rare's constant bloviating about how they want this game to be a social space where players become friends yet include and exclude mechanisms to encourage the exact opposite, they'll probably program it with the same personality disorder that the game suffers from.
Due to the length of the discussion I apologize if this suggestion has come up already.
What if there was a way to vote as a crew to “search for calmer seas”? This would allow a crew to vote to migrate servers. The mechanic for server migration is already in effect.
In a pvp situation it would function like this. Ship A is pursuing ship B. Ship B has no chests and wants to go on their way.
Ship B’s crew votes to move to calmer seas. From ship B’s perception the ship following them sinks. The ship offers no resources.
From ship As perception, ship B has just scuttled. Anything they were carrying is now in the water where the ship was.
@mrloadedpotato
So it'll invite you to a tea party then stab you in the face with the butter knife.
BUT
at least it'll be smiling at you when it does so.
Things have gotten a little quiet around here, so I thought I'd post one last looong idea before the game comes out, just for future consideration. Rather than changing any in game mechanics to re-balance PvPvE, this would be a matchmaking tool to help new and inexperienced players learn how to survive.
TLDR: Training Voyages - option to play as an Instructor or a Cadet, matchmaker tries to get at least one of each onto every Training Voyage
When logging in to the game, somewhere in the process of selecting your ship and crew size, you would also select if you wanted to participate in a Training Voyage. This would present you with an option to become an Instructor, which would say something like "Help eager new pirates find their sea legs by answering their questions and 'showing them the ropes' yar har har," or to become a Cadet, which might say "Learn from the saltiest old sea dogs how to survive and thrive in the Sea of Thieves!" The game's matchmaker would then simply try put at least one Instructor and one Cadet on every Training Voyage and spawn them in just like any other ship.
Of course, there are some potential issues to consider. First, like any matchmaking tool that amounts to players declaring their intentions, it could be abused by trolls and griefers who misrepresent themselves. Experienced players might try to make use of an "easy mode" allowing another player to shoulder most of the workload while feigning incompetence. Others might falsely cast themselves as an Instructor just to belittle new players. There might need to be a system in place to prevent or punish such abuse, and that need might overshadow the potential benefit... a matter for discussion.
It could also turn out that, at certain times of particularly low player population, there might not be enough Instructors to go around, although I suspect the SoT community in general would respond fairly warmly to a chance to help new players so directly and as such Instructors may not be hard to find at all.
It's also possible (probable) there are other potential complications I haven't thought of, or that something like this is already included/planned for the full game, or that the idea has already been discussed and dismissed. I hope that last one is not the case, though, I actually really enjoy being a video game coach, and after I get myself some real experience in the game I think sailing as an Instructor might be one of my favorite social activities.
So, how does all this apply to the PvP/PvE balance conversation? Well, one of the strongest, soundest arguments against any particular change favoring PvE safety is that the game already offers plenty of tools to keep yourself safe. That's fine, but it also means that the newest, most inexperienced players will have the hardest time, which is a pretty typical "barrier to entry" sort of characteristic, the like of which RARE wants to avoid here. Adding a matchmaking tool specifically designed to pair new players eager to learn with experienced players eager to teach seems like the perfect SoT-style answer to getting survival skills into the hands of new players as fast as possible. I suppose you could just put in some instruction manual style tutorial scenarios that spawn the player in their own private instance to complete a few basic tasks, but that basically abandons the most powerful, central tool and "mechanic" the game has... other players.
I hope this concept strikes a chord with at least a few old pros out there, if so please let me know! As always, thanks for taking the time to read!
EDIT
Was watching an old Inn-side Story video from the RARE channel when they mentioned it might help to have TLDRs at the top of long posts. So I added one. Cheers.
I think there should be for pvp situations, be risk for both the predator and the prey as right now there are no penalties for going after other players and losing or dying as you just come back to life with no penalties. I suggest that when ever your ship sinks, there be a loss of coin if you attack first or there should be some type of penalty for the ship like less resources on spawn or some type of humiliation for dying after attacking. Though this should be for evenly sized ships otherwise there should be different penalties for a sloop vs a galleon. I hope this idea can give the devs a interesting and more pirate way to balance pvp and or pve. Have fun sailing the seas guys!
One more thing I wanted to add to this thread the game comes out is the idea of new weapons added to the game, although put on the forums it hasnt gotten that popular yet, I wanted to bring this to attention as the amount of choices for your arsenal isn’t that big, so I would like to suggest a gun I’ve thinking about, though keep in mind that there many other ideas, I say we should have a sniper rifle without a scope, somewhat like a musket though the reload wouldn’t be that long and the range of the shot would be reduced, there could also be a crossbow, or duel wielding certain weapons, might I go so far and say a bow just a name a few. This I reckon should be it’s own thread so the devs could get an understanding on what they want expand in the different thing you could use to sink another person!
I'm mainly looking a this game as PvE, but, saying that if I fancy some PvP fun then I'll do some of that. What I think the main problem here is that those that want to do PvP and PvE are catered for, those that just want to do PvE don't have an option to do just that.
If someone just want to jump on for an hour to do some treasure hunting then spends the next 45-60 mins being chased all over the map for one chest then yeah, I can see their point, they've not gained anything from their play session but bad feelings towards the game.
This game is just like the Dark Zone in The Division, a play area designed to be PvPvE but ultimately failed due to too many people randomly attacking other players, not to steal their loot but to force them out of the DZ, thus stopping them from playing an enjoyable element of the game.
Rare have tried to cater to all sides, but PvE players have been shafted as they don't get the option to play the way they would like.
Like I said I'm mainly for PvE but the idea of running with my booty or turning to fight every now and then is something I'm willing to put up with.
There's no balance in PvP vs. PvE. It is impossible to accomplish because there are no real repercussions like in the real world. You die, you respawn, etc. People that will PvP exclusively outside of what they can't restock via looting other ships will find a way to exploit everyone they can. People that PvE for the most part will get frustrated eventually because they log in, do a quest, get ganked and rage quit.
It'll take time as the newness/honeymoon stage continues, but numbers will drop as the PvE'ers give up first and eventually the PvP'ers leave because there's nobody left worth attacking.
When there is any mechanism that will allow others to grief people, expect that to overwhelm your game.
There has never been a world of just pirates. Ever. In any society that has evolved past caves and huts, there has been a government, law enforcement, militaries, etc. who would align against pirates. In this game, every player is a pirate which makes it a completely false idea that you'll find balance in anything.
There are simply no systems in place with the current build to keep the waters somewhat civil. In a real world, it would be a couple pirates with the majority of other people being civil. In this world, it's 100% pirates with 100% open world PvP. You can't balance something when it's already skewed 100% in one direction.
Let me be the captain of a well funded militia (funded by a government, no chest hunting, etc.) and let me hunt pirates in your game. Create a bounty system where I get a list of ships that have caused the most havoc and there you start to get balance.
If you have boats that can overwhelm the pirates once found, the pirates would have to be better than just attacking everything they see or waiting in hubs and killing every person getting ready to turn in a quest.
You made a game where it's 100% pirates. That's the problem to your question. Fix that and maybe there's a point to this discussion.
@pikaaroon ok as i am new and preordered the game i can see where an issue might arise when turning in chests at an outpost maybe make it soo your ship cant be destroyed almost like a safe haven or zone around the outpost just a thought as i could see a lot of individuals taking advantage of this. I am from a 1200 + community of ppl that play lots of games and quite a few of us are looking forward to launch day and the head of our community will be streaming when you guys launch he is jadeplaysgames on youtube. Wish you all the best for launch and we cant wait to play, sooooo excited
I really like the idea of havi different ship upgrades that positively affect some aspects but have drawbacks, making every captains ship unique but balanced. I also think that there should be a cannon placement module at the shipwright that would essentially allow the players to move their cannons around maybe moving a few to the front or back or maybe a deck below for example. This wouldn’t affect the potential firepower of a ship, Just add a unique flair to each ship and a potentially different playstyle. Also, maybe the ability to switch to a different kind of cannon. Maybe turning the 8 cannons into 4-6 heavier cannons at a cost to movement. Or turning 2 cannons into a chain-shot for hitting players and doing minimal damage to the hull (2-3 shots yields a hole). Or possibly a harpoon for hunting pesky sea creatures or pulling in other ships to board easily. In addition I think there should be a similar thing for weapons. For example a pistol that has less range but maybe a faster reload and slightly more damage for close encounters but useless at range, a sort of shotgun pistol. Or a rifle/musket that serves as a mid-long range gun without a scope like the sniper but with the ability to pick off players on other ships or on shore. Also maybe a dagger that has less damage, faster strikes and could potentially be thrown. Just adding different things like this that lead to unique, but balanced or situation play styles is a necessity in this game.
My first impressions from the "final" game:
Forced PvP makes this game unenjoyable. It needs a mode where players and crews cannot damage each other and I tell you why.
Because most players can only do one thing, shoot at everything that moves. If you want to play normally, completing quests and actually progress, you can't, because there will certainly be another player or crew that will attack and kill you. The game is so badly designed that after death you spawn back at the very same spot, giving chance for them to kill you again and again. This is ridiculous.
Not being able to complete quests means no progression so even that little point is lost from the game.
Rare, if you need reference, please check out Elite Dangerous by Frontier and why most people hate the Open PvP mode. Simply because it's full of griefers who don't play the game properly, only kill normal people. So reasonable players go into private groups or solo.
Sea of Thieves needs the same solution or else the normal players will put it down and only the idiots remain. There needs to be a non-PvP mode where players can safely and calmly play and enjoy the game. Forced PvP is not a good design choice.
@dreampage Agree.
Me and a buddy encountered two griefers already that tried to kill us for no reason everytime....
Then we switched to another outpost and met friendly other pirates which was cool to see. But the chance of that happening in this game is slim.
There needs to be a passive mode or PvE only option. Because the already pretty thin "progression" is going to be a chore if you always get killed before delivering your actual items to a vendor.
I don’t want to get rid of pvp completely I actually like it, but as mainly a solo player as I often work hours that don’t suit playing with others. I would like to see something where solo players would only be matched with other solo players (or an option for this) had an enjoyable experience meeting a solo player where we exchanged a few cannon shots back and forth, I sank and didn’t really care fair fight. But then I came in contact with a crew of three where they killed me then continued to camp my ship and kill me time after time, this ruined the experience. If this was one on one then you have a chance to fight back.
@dreampage You are asking them to make a game they didn't intend to make. It would be like going to a horror movie and bashing it because it was scary and violent.
I forget where in history there were the only safe pirates sailing the seas.
Sorry but maybe this game isn't for you.
@PwredbyRocks This is an extremely good point and one that I find a lot of connection to as I mostly have played solo so far. I'm a mainly PvE player and while it's clear that people like @AsianThuderFury don't think other people should be able to also enjoy the game in a different way than them, I feel that making a toggle off for PvP could be a viable option given certain circumstances. If, for example, being toggled for PvP gave you more rewards than being toggled for only PvE, I think that's a fair compromise. Maybe you make it so that PvP flagged gives you a bonus per activity you do, or make it so PvE gives lesser rewards.
The point of this entire discussion isn't whether or not PvP or PvE should exist, it's a means of communication to determine the best way based on the playerbase i.e. the people buying the game feel would help them enjoy it. This isn't exactly a niche game and people trying to force out PvE only players due to an authenticity factor is a little ludicrous.
a safe outpost that doesn't allow the same of treasure but is primarily designed to help players rally together a crew. this could help solo players get into the community. there would be no combat at the location so it is a safe environment. but you cannot take treasure into it so camping outside would be futile.
it could also have extra features to make it a more interesting player hub.
Idea for balance. To help prevent the "shoot first" mentality and promote meaningful PvP.
https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/39053/idea-for-pvp-balance-faction-standards-flags
Dear Reader.
Please bare with my bad english for this is gonna be a pretty long post.
After these first few days of playing (beta + Release). I've done my fair share of questing for all reps (around lvl 10 with all) and even doing a skullfort with my friend. Though I can't get over the fact that the world feels empty. After doing all the quests we head out to do some PVP...
You need atleast 15-30 mins of sailing time before you get zoned with a other player and and an other good 15 mins to catch up to them.
I also played with a crew of four & the PVP on those gallions feels so wacky. We tryed to split up so we could be 2 ships of 2 people, but because of how the servers work there is no indicator if you're on the same seas of your friends. We tryed over 2 hours to get into the same "server" what ended up on us just alt F4'ing the game.
The base of a great PVP game is here, but you guys need to work on how people get zoned in a server. You guys tell us we can play the game as we want, but some times I just want to log in and PVP all day but in the current state it's not a valid option.
In my opinion this game could realy benefit from custom servers, where my friends and i can just PVP all day (in the likes of blackwake).
Last note for the people who feel that the PVP is to much. just sail away. if you have good sail mamagement there is no way someone can catch up to you. Also try to go as much outpost as you can so when you get into a PVP fight you don't lose 15k worth of gold.
And as last note @Pikaaroon make a PVE Mega Thread. I feel the need to sharing my opinion on this.
Much love
Dieffs
OK Here are my ideas that I think should be considered.
I feel this is good enough for 1 post and I hope this gets some really great ideas started to fix the unbalance of PvE. As I suffered my first experience of the game being extremely miserable being on a smaller ship with a crew of 2 and continuously got trolled by a big ship of 4 players getting sniped and sunk by the same exact ship over and over again not being able to defend ourselves that well being our first time playing.
@pikaaroon i 100% agree. I like PvP but sometimes i just want to chill with my friends and plunder the islands and get reputations and gold for equipment etc. I guess having the opion to DISABLE PvP would be great. Like GTAV you can go and click DISABLE in settings, still be in the same server but unkillable
Right now PvP just feels like it was slapped onto the PvE game in order to purposely interrupt the normal game loops and add some dynamic human elements to the game.
What sucks is that this means there's rarely a moment of rest/relaxation once you are out at sea doing tasks and collecting treasure. It creates paranoia and a high sense of alert, and if you see another ship coming your way then prepare for 30+ minutes of being chased until one of you gives up...
Like is it really so much to ask for the ability to enjoy the PvE side of the game without the constant threat of folks like (THESE ARE JOKE NAMES MADE UP AT RANDOM) xXxDeathgod76xXx and his friends kyle63, SailHatan666, and Sonicgoku42 chasing you down and wasting your playtime unless you decide to just give up, quit out, hop back in, and hope you don't run into that again?
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