[Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4)

@jinxybinx @mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@deusnecrotis I have to disagree with you on it's easier for PvPers to have a good pure PvP time without PvE encroaching on their game. If you are into pure PvP and that's your thing I still have yet to see a "pure PvPer" to post on these forums. Most people who are defending PvP just like the game as it is. Okay now that that's out of the way here's my reasons why PvPers don't always have this perfect PvP time.

1. As others have stated without PvE PvP would have no loot.
2. You don't have unlimited resources so you are 'forced' into PvE by having to restock as ships don't drop their resources upon sinking them
3. If the person is a pure PvE player 9/10 they will just run and I can tell you long chases are boring AF
4. If the person is a pure PvE player they might just scuttle their ship before you even get a shot off.
5. PvE players screaming at you calling you a griefer for just participating in part of the game you enjoy.

I find so many people in these forums don't look at it from both sides of the argument which is why typically I will side with "pro-pvp" ideas over pro-pve because as I said most people defending PvP are defending PvPvE so they see both sides. You really can't comment on how easy it is for PvPers when you don't experiment with it. NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU Deus this is just a general observation

Also that whole thing about no rep for messages in a bottle/no rep on stolen items, If your argument is that it makes sense logically to do that because they give you the quests. Gold hoarders are the only people who want chests, merchants are the only people who want animals, order of souls are the only people who want skulls. This being the case, wouldn't you say that they want these particular items for some reason or another and just giving them the items should garner you reputation? Otherwise you would be able to give anyone the chests/animals/skulls. That only makes sense, they want you to seek out these items for them, sure doing the actual searching is a partial aspect but what they really want is the item.

Both the PvE and PvP system are in part of this game, both need one another to survive. This game is entirely about having both aspects in harmony, if you want to just sail and collect items without any outside interference i'm sure there is another game out there that can do just that. That isn't this game.

@mri1ama I have seen a number of posts where players say they will only hunt other players, along with many who want to add more pvp elements such as capturing other players, vertical or sideway progression, leaderboards, more ships per server etc. There was even a thread made to list all the crews a player sunk before it got shut down... Your other points are also faulty. Without pvers, there is still loot to be randomly found, many people have said they enjoy the long cat and mouse chases, supplies are so plentiful and easy to come by I'm not sure I get that point, you suggest yourself pvers should scuttle their ships if they don't want to be chased...

@mri1ama you should get gold for those items, not rep. Yes, they are looking for specific items ie the ones they ask for in quests. Messages in a bottle and randomly found loot should only provide gold and not reputation because they are not specifically requested from any guild.

@jinxybinx Yeah I do suggest people should scuttle their ships if they don't want to be chased, that's a tool they have to avoid a situation if they don't want it. Even though its boring for me if I want a fight I understand it and don't want it touched. Just as PvE players should understand that PvP is part of the game that they have to deal with if they want to play.
And how would this loot magically be found for these players that are just sailing around sinking other people that makes no sense, it doesn't just float on the open ocean, you have to actively seek it out which is PvE.
As for vertical progression, I believe that is also against the core values of the game just as NPC ships and Safezones are
As for those who say they like 1 hour long chases where you can't shoot or do anything other than chase because you both are going the same speed, good for them the PvE player can avoid it by using the tools rare gives them. Let those people enjoy those chases although it can be cut by scuttling, just as PvE players voyage bliss can be cut by PvP

Also HOW are they not specifically requested. YOU CAN ONLY GIVE THEM TO THOSE PARTICULAR TRADERS. To say they don't specifically want those items makes 0 logical sense. Gold hoarders won't take skulls Order of souls won't take chests.

@mri1ama because quests are generally like "Go search for Capt McGees lost treasure! Here is a map or riddle left behind to find it!" Or "The pitiful Mrs. Potts needs 2 black chickens and a pink pig by 2pm on the 23rd." Is the chest you randomly stole from another ship Capt McGee's hidden treasure? No. Is that white chicken what the pitiful Mrs. Potts requested? No. Then you don't get any reputation, but they will buy those things from you.

@jinxybinx If you dig up Capt McGee's Treasure it's still capt. McGee's treasure why would they care who hands it in? oh right they don't. They just want the treasure.
As for the chickens. Mrs.Potts wants those chickens on time which is why you get the EXTRA rep from doing the mission on time, if you don't hand it in for a reason THEY STILL WANT THOSE CHICKENS.

Either way you are doing something the traders want. If you go through with their requests as per the voyage you get extra rep for that and that's the reason why the extra rep is even there for completing parts of the voyage. The rep you get from handing it in is more because of this scenario.

Billy wants Sally you make him a bike, Sally makes the bike but loses the bike. Should Billy be happy with just the fact Sally made the bike and didn't give it to him? No he still wants the bike. Sally should get nothing if she doesn't hand in the bike, if someone else gave him the bike he wanted without making it themselves they would get all the reward. Be happy Rare gives you any rep for doing the voyage at all without handing in the loot.

If this doesn't explain it well enough to you, I don't think anything will and am done discussing it because I have made it blatantly clear in multiple ways.

@mri1ama you don't know if that treasure is Capt McGee's. Yes, they still want those chickens, which is why they will give you gold for them. I still stand by my perspective Quests = Rep, Loot = Gold. Also, tone down the capslock...

@jinxybinx So if you asked someone get you something, you got them that something and lost it on the way, so you didn't give it to them at all. That they should be happy with you. Because with your reasoning that's exactly what you are saying. I'd personally be more grateful to the random stranger that brought me what I wanted without asking than the person who attempted to bring me something and failed.

You say the act of doing something is more important than the thing itself. Why in the first place did they tell you to go get the chickens, was it just so you could go and get the chickens or was it because they wanted chickens? This is the most simple way I can tell it to you.

Also I use caps to put emphasis on my points if you don't read it as such that's up to you, just as it's up to you to defend your own loot and keep a weather eye on the horizon.

Cheers.

@bloodclap said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

I think it would be good if you sink someone's ship in cannons battle that you get some reward example :

To have some table on board in ship that everyone can see what you get for battles

That you have some badges on your clothes like in army ( i think this is good one )

Put your ideas now boiis ;) aaaarargghhhh

I disagree. There shouldn't be rewards for pvp, though your reward ideas are fairly unobtrusive. For advancement and rewards people should be encouraged to do the pve content. This begins to create balance between the two separate mentalities.

@mri1ama wait, what? You wouldn't get rep unless you successfully complete the quest...

For emphasis there are other ways to do so that don't resort to shouting (which capslock is universal for) such as italics or bolding. Both of these are typically used in typed word for emphasizing points.

@jinxybinx You completely deflected what I said there lol. And are insulting my typing choices instead of answering my questions. Yeah you lost this debate but just can't admit it. I see now that this is just futile because you will not admit you are wrong.

Cheers.

I will end with this quote that explains this in the most simple way I can for you. But you won't admit it anyway but just so anyone else with this flawed ideal comes in here maybe they will realize the error in the thought.

You say the act of doing something is more important than the thing itself. Why in the first place did they tell you to go get the chickens, was it just so you could go and get the chickens or was it because they wanted chickens? This is the most simple way I can tell it to you.

@mri1ama also if I requested a chicken from a trusted seller but they were unable to give it, and then some random person I don't know brought me one, I'd be hella dubious of that chicken and personally would tell them "No thanks."

@mri1ama no, I was not insulting or deflecting.

Your argument against my point is that you think rep would be given for accepting the quest but not completing it. I said quests must be successfully completed.

The other part was not an insult but an explanation that capslock = shouting and that there are tools in place (italics and bolding) to use for emphasis.

Edit: To further expand my reasoning here is an example. I am a painter working on a masterpiece. I place an order for specific color, say burnt orcher, and of a specific type, say oil paint, to use. The person I placed the order with takes the order and is working on fulfilling it. Then you come and give me blue and purple watercolors. Yes, I "need paint", and sure I might find those watercolors interesting and buy them from you, but it isn't the specific ones I am wanting and I trust my seller to get me the quality paint I am looking for.

@jinxybinx said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

One thing I have suggested before is to only allow guild reputation progression work if you actually complete their requests. Turning in random loot should always net you gold, but you should only progress your standing by fulfilling their requests. It just does not seem logical that reputation increases if you never do their actual quests.

I love this idea. People should be encouraged to pve for advancement.

@wrothamoeba388 There is already balance in PvE and PvP, gains from PvP could not exist without voyages from PvE. And the most risk from PvE could not exist without PvP. To say you should only get advancement and rewards from PvE and not PvP shows that this probably isn't the kinda game you should be looking at. This is a PvPvE game not a PvE game and not a PvP game. Also everyone is on the exact same playing field when it comes to armament so no one is on a higher level than someone else because of ingame items and it comes down to skill. That is 100% balanced.

Adding loot a 100% chance loot drop on ships such as you get their figurehead to sell if you sink their ship may balance the need from PvE players I saw saying they get nothing from defending themselves (which is wrong because they get to keep their loot)
And balances the problem from the PvP side where some ships may have no loot that they sink. It benefits both sides. Which are much better ideas than those that penalize one side or another exclusively.

@mri1ama said in [[Mega Thread] - To say you should only get advancement and rewards from PvE and not PvP shows that this probably isn't the kinda game you should be looking at.

This type of dialogue is unacceptable and many times has been stated that it goes against community code to tell a person this game is not for them.

So, no idea if someone suggested this already but here's my idea: have an ingame stat tracker that affects matchmaking. An example would be say "Jimmy" has killed over 3000 players and almost never does Skeleton Forts, Merchant missions, etc. He just wants the thrill of the hunt. Match him with other PvP focused players and let them have there fun. Meanwhile "Billy" almost never attacks other players, has defeated 100 Skeleton Forts, and is almost max rank with the Merchant Alliance. Match him into a server where other players are doing the same. Will PvP still happen? Yes. Will "Billy" lose all his treasure because "Todd" attacked and sunk his ship? Probably. But that's part of the game. Do that little thing (I honestly don't know how hard it would be to implement, could be hard to do for all I know) and you should be able to make 90% of players happy. Plus, then you don't need PvE and PvP servers to be separated. Everybody wins!

@jinxybinx
1- I said probably, this game is not for everyone. To say otherwise is just folly. Someone who likes fighter games exclusively will not like this game for obvious reasons. This is not some crazy out of this world idea. I didn't say leave I said if this game doesn't meet your needs for PvE then it probably isnt for you. EDIT I don't buy street fighter 5 expecting it to be a pirate sandbox. Just as other people shouldn't buy a pirate PvPvE sandbox and only expect to play PvE without running into PvP

2- I wasn't addressing you and I will not be addressing you from this point forward because at this point you are just being bitter and looking to lash out at me because you couldn't win a discussion.

3- Please don't @ me anymore because you completely disregard everything I say in the first place and contort it to something else entirely. thank you :)

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@wrothamoeba388 There is already balance in PvE and PvP, gains from PvP could not exist without voyages from PvE. And the most risk from PvE could not exist without PvP. To say you should only get advancement and rewards from PvE and not PvP shows that this probably isn't the kinda game you should be looking at. This is a PvPvE game not a PvE game and not a PvP game. Also everyone is on the exact same playing field when it comes to armament so no one is on a higher level than someone else because of ingame items and it comes down to skill. That is 100% balanced.

Adding loot a 100% chance loot drop on ships such as you get their figurehead to sell if you sink their ship may balance the need from PvE players I saw saying they get nothing from defending themselves (which is wrong because they get to keep their loot)
And balances the problem from the PvP side where some ships may have no loot that they sink. It benefits both sides. Which are much better ideas than those that penalize one side or another exclusively.

First of all please do not make judgements on what kind of player I am, because in this case you are undoubtedly wrong. Also, the this game isn't for you argument is negative and against the developers view of community.

Otherwise, you also miss my intent. I feel there needs to be motivation for pvp players to also partake in the pve environment. Players should not be rewarded for only attacking players. Sometimes you need to be the fox avoiding the hunt, not just the hound on the chase. All pve players will encounter times where they must engage in pvp, in trade pvp players should be encouraged to pve from time to time. Currently there is nothing that strikes this balance in the game.

@mri1ama Anything about this game not being for a particular player is against the code. "Probably" or otherwise.

@wrothamoeba388 You completely disregarded my post lol. I explained to you exactly what you just said. You quote me but you don't read it.

PvP players are encouraged to PvE, If everyone only did PvP there would be no loot to be had for anyone
Also to that point PvP players could easily fight someone with no loot at all. Spend an hour fighting and chasing someone just for there to be no loot. Meanwhile they could of been out doing PvE and handed in 10 items to their trader of choice in the same amount of time.
I have explained many times as have many others in many posts as to why PvP has a hard enough time as it is to progress. And given I have seen you post in the last 3 threads I know you've read them but just seem to dis-regard them.
I have seen many of your posts on these threads and they all have the same theme, so sorry if i'm pegging you for a pure PvE player but from your posts it wholeheartedly seems like it.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@wrothamoeba388 You completely disregarded my post lol. I explained to you exactly what you just said. You quote me but you don't read it.

PvP players are encouraged to PvE, If everyone only did PvP there would be no loot to be had for anyone
Also to that point PvP players could easily fight someone with no loot at all. Spend an hour fighting and chasing someone just for there to be no loot. Meanwhile they could of been out doing PvE and handed in 10 items to their trader of choice in the same amount of time.
I have explained many times as have many others in many posts as to why PvP has a hard enough time as it is to progress. And given I have seen you post in the last 3 threads I know you've read them but just seem to dis-regard them.
I have seen many of your posts on these threads and they all have the same theme, so sorry if i'm pegging you for a pure PvE player but from your posts it wholeheartedly seems like it.

I did read it. Your idea is that players should be granted extra rewards for choosing to pvp. They sink a ship they gain rewards. Yet they offered up nothing in return. The pve player defends themselves at the risk of losing X. The pvp player risks nothing, but stands to get X+1. Your answer is that the pve player also gets X+1, but X was already theirs. So their risk is larger. You mention the time spent by the pvp centric player, but discount the pve players time. So for easy comparison, the pvp player enters the fray with no chests, the pve enters with 3. Both could leave with 4, risk vs reward is off balance.

Lastly, even though I have no need to defend myself, I really do enjoy the pvp in this game, and believe it is necessary for the proper play experience. However, I do feel the current iteration of the game does not support an even play field. Not due to game balance, but intent. There is nothing motivating pvp players to play pve, but plenty that causes pve players to pvp. I would like to see all players partake in all parts of the game. (Like me.)

@wrothamoeba388 The problem here is you think that X is already yours, Rare has stated themselves that the chests/loot are not your until you hand them in. Defending against people is just another part of the voyage (this is a key aspect people blow over time and time again). Your problem as someone holding chests is defending them from invaders.

On the flipside the invaders problem is they may get no gains for attacking someone and end up wasting time and resources fighting a no loot fight.

Both sides have equal and opposite problems. This has been explained many times throughout these 4 megathreads. If you want more reasons you can go do research and educate yourself by reading through the threads. Acting like there is no downfall to PvP is just a false point spouted by people who do not partake in that aspect of the game.

As for the point with the whole getting the figurehead on sinking a ship, that was just an idea. But I can understand it would weigh more heavily on PvP side to get rid of the main problem with PvP which is possibly getting no loot from their mark.

Cheers.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@wrothamoeba388 The problem here is you think that X is already yours, Rare has stated themselves that the chests/loot are not your until you hand them in. Defending against people is just another part of the voyage (this is a key aspect people blow over time and time again). Your problem as someone holding chests is defending them from invaders.

On the flipside the invaders problem is they may get no gains for attacking someone and end up wasting time and resources fighting a no loot fight.

Both sides have equal and opposite problems. This has been explained many times throughout these 4 megathreads. If you want more reasons you can go do research and educate yourself by reading through the threads. Acting like there is no downfall to PvP is just a false point spouted by people who do not partake in that aspect of the game.

Cheers.

My point is that ALL players need to dig chests. Not just the ones that want to focus that way. The only answer to that is that the pvp player doesn't like it. This will encourage more dig time for the pvp focused player.

@mri1ama Oh, and good sailing to you sir.

@mri1ama a dit dans [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4) :

@wrothamoeba388 There is already balance in PvE and PvP, gains from PvP could not exist without voyages from PvE. And the most risk from PvE could not exist without PvP. To say you should only get advancement and rewards from PvE and not PvP shows that this probably isn't the kinda game you should be looking at. This is a PvPvE game not a PvE game and not a PvP game. Also everyone is on the exact same playing field when it comes to armament so no one is on a higher level than someone else because of ingame items and it comes down to skill. That is 100% balanced.

The rate of damage, the speed of repair are different! The ability to board and use cannon's at the same time!
Against (1 player or 2) a speed advantage (wind) if you have no wind you go as fast as galleon!

The raid on the islands! Impossible alone and very difficult to 2! Optimized for 4 or more players (with pvp at the end for the special chest)

For me it's not 100% balanced :)

@ragga95 agreed in a 1 on 1 fight a sloop loses. But I don't think sloops are meant to be able to stand toe to toe and 1 v 1 galleons in a straight fire fight. As for the speed aspect what the galleon gains in speed sloops gain in crazy good maneuverability.

If you get chased by a galleon in a sloop head for some rocks like at shipwreck bay and use the environment to your advantage. Another tip is while you are leading them through the rocks drop some gunpowder barrels in areas they can't turn in. So easy to sink a galleon giving chase with that strategy.

As for the skeleton forts. Yeah it is obviously better with more people but I don't see a way for them to balance it so 2 people can do it. And honestly I don't think they should, if you really want to do skeleton forts you can matchmake for a galleon crew. If you are a sloop crew you can maybe try to sneakily steal it from the galleon crew with some quick thinking maybe. But as for doing the PvE aspect of the skeleton fort I don't think it would be impossible for a sloop crew but it would be harder for sure.

@ragga95 Skeleton Forts are intended for multiple crews to work together (with possible back stabbing), but not something that can be solo'd or just 1 crew.

Not sure if this idea has been said before (No time to read every post in these mega threads):
Going with the reputation based theme of the game, the top flag on every ship should change in design based on the combined pvp record of the crew or possibly just the number of ships sunk in the session. This would not only allow crews to identify potentially passive or aggressive ships on the horizon but would simultaneously reward successful pvp crews.

Kill marks on sails would also be a really cool option.

Stat based customization in general would be a great addition to the game and would make interactions with other crews much more diverse.

@wrothamoeba388 Before I make my point here i'd like to say I have yet to see someone say anything that is 100% PvP there have been suggestions to add to PvP but nothing to my knowledge on taking away PvE elements to make it more PvP oriented. Because as I said those who are defending PvP like the game the way it is for the most part and just want things to get added and not taken away or penalized.

While PvE focused players are hell bent on destroying the game for PvPers by making stolen loot worth less and a bunch of other penalties for these players playing the game they want to.

Anyway now to my question. Why should anyone HAVE to dig up any chests ever.
If someone wants to go around sinking ships to their hearts content they should be able to do so and not be penalized for it.
Just as people who want to just go around and do voyages should not be penalized for playing that way.
Both parties have their upsides and downsides towards progression as it is.

PvP spends a bunch of time chasing someone down and manages to sink them after 30 minutes of fighting. They go and check and there is no loot.

PvE player goes out and does a voyage and gets 4 chests and then gets set upon by an enemy ship then sinks and loses those 4 chests

Both players lost time the PvE player however gets Rep for completing parts of their voyage which accounts for the tiny amount of gold paid to acquire that voyage, the PvP player gets nothing because they spent nothing.

This is balance plain and simple. To penalize a PvP player for stolen loot would imbalance the game.

Edit

Their new video pretty easily sums up my feelings on this game and gives me hope for the future.

• Play the game how you want
• Keep an eye out for other ships to defend yourself
• Every ship is another person of whom you won't know their intentions.
• The voyage is only half of the quest.

@mri1ama The problem is that most of us want to have many different types of interactions with other crews, but right now it's basically impossible because of shot-on-site mentality. When you give option to fight others whenever you want to most people is gonna use it. Others will learn then the hard way that you cannot trust anyone and everybody is hostile. The only way to actually change that is to make things harder for pvp players along the features that will encourage cooperation between and helping each other. That is the case in pretty much every game like that and simply more content will not solve this issue. It may actually encourage hostility even more if you can gain more interesting things and treasures by killing and stealing.

Also I've read some of the earlier post and I still think that not adding NPC ships and guards at some outpost is simply a bad decision. It's near perfect way to make world feel more alive, making attacking each other more risky and potentially add more ways to play if there was a option to join a royal navy for example. The whole knowing that every other ship is a player ship thing is not worth much and when it comes to knowing ships intentions... well as I already said I can safely assume their hostile.

Also adding all these restrictions to the pvp may allow for later adding more gameplay on pvp side of things. Things like guilds of outlaws or other stuff like this could be a thing. But right now if things stay like they are the freedom of this game is going to be lost as there's going to be only one proper way to play: doing voyages and shooting others on site.

@beakedhawk74801 The problem here is people aren't seeing this game for what it is, A PIRATE SANDBOX game. I don't know how many of you have ever played a sandbox, but the point of it is to avoid structure and give the players the power to make their own stories. Adding structured guilds and such will take away that sandbox status and it will turn into a Pirate MMO which it is not.

As for all players killing on site, I clearly must of lived in a mystical realm during my play tests or something. Because it was about a 60/40 split of shoot on site and friendly pirates during my playtests. We would sail by people waving and flashing lights. I even had a duo team come onto my ship to help me find an island that I couldn't locate on the map (it was actually really close I just couldn't see the forest for the trees lol) and I gave them a chest for their time.

On another play through we had got everyone we possible could onto one ship, 16 pirates in total all on one galleon and we had a grand ol' pirate party.

This game is what you make of it, and that is the point. Make your own story and play how you want. These are the Core elements of this game and any sandbox too many people want this to be a structured MMORPG but it isn't that type of game, If you want one of those they are all over the place you can go find one. This is a very unique game and it may not be for everyone because of that.

Last thing, with horizontal progression there is no PROPER WAY to do anything. Play the way that makes things fun for you given the tools rare has provided. If you are talking about speed leveling and getting to pirate legend as fast as you can, well that's how you want to play so you should tailor your gameplay accordingly. I am personally here to have fun and I have been able to do just that.

@beakedhawk74801 This is why Rare should have the flag at the top of your ship change depending on your hostility. Seeing a white flag above the crows nest would mean a ship has never sunk another ship and might be friendly or easy prey, whereas a red or black jolly roger would indicate a highly proficient pvp ship that should be feared and avoided.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@wrothamoeba388 Before I make my point here i'd like to say I have yet to see someone say anything that is 100% PvP there have been suggestions to add to PvP but nothing to my knowledge on taking away PvE elements to make it more PvP oriented. Because as I said those who are defending PvP like the game the way it is for the most part and just want things to get added and not taken away or penalized.

While PvE focused players are hell bent on destroying the game for PvPers by making stolen loot worth less and a bunch of other penalties for these players playing the game they want to.

Anyway now to my question. Why should anyone HAVE to dig up any chests ever.
If someone wants to go around sinking ships to their hearts content they should be able to do so and not be penalized for it.
Just as people who want to just go around and do voyages should not be penalized for playing that way.
Both parties have their upsides and downsides towards progression as it is.

PvP spends a bunch of time chasing someone down and manages to sink them after 30 minutes of fighting. They go and check and there is no loot.

PvE player goes out and does a voyage and gets 4 chests and then gets set upon by an enemy ship then sinks and loses those 4 chests

Both players lost time the PvE player however gets Rep for completing parts of their voyage which accounts for the tiny amount of gold paid to acquire that voyage, the PvP player gets nothing because they spent nothing.

This is balance plain and simple. To penalize a PvP player for stolen loot would imbalance the game.

Edit

Their new video pretty easily sums up my feelings on this game and gives me hope for the future.

• Play the game how you want
• Keep an eye out for other ships to defend yourself
• Every ship is another person of whom you won't know their intentions.
• The voyage is only half of the quest.

First of all, Hello and good to see you again. Hope your day was amazing. Believe it or not I do appreciate our talks, though I feel you and will never reach an accord.

Second, I don't understand your tie in to the video. I believe in all those points. Play as you want. Watch the horizon. Every ship is another person...

Where you and I split is in the fact that most pvp players are completely content and happy to force pvp on the pve player but they don't want to participate in pve content.

I don't want to remove pvp from the game. This is definitely not my intent. So again, I am not sure why you directed the first paragraph at me. I don't really want to take anything away, but I also don't want 100% pvp players to gain additional rewards either.

In your rebuttal you layed out the time sink associated with play. I will respond. Both pve and pvp players must travel on the seas, so this time is a wash. You could say you spend more time acquiring targets, and this would be true, but the pve player spends time searching for chests. Then, the chase, both players exhaust the same amount of time, but I feel this is what the pvp player wants, where the pve player generally is already unhappy. Then battle, the pvp player has a huge amount to gain, and the pve has a huge amount to lose. Not an even playing field. You said before the chests are not the pve players until turned in. True, but they still put in the work for them. There is no person alive that says "Sure glad they took those chests from me. Good for them." Lol.

Also, I would need to verify this but I don't believe you receive any faction rewards if you lose your chests or are unable to complete a mission. So in essence time wasted for the pve player.

If you want to pvp, great. You shouldn't have to dig chests. You just simply shouldn't be faction rewarded either. Take the money, buy your cosmetics, and drink to your victories. I'm not saying you shouldn't gain rewards, just I think there should be a temptation for you to play the pve content as well.

In the end, you want to tell the pve player that hates pvp that is just the game, but then you don't like the results of pvp in the game and want more. Sorry, that's just the game. The gamble to get no loot for your hunt is part of pvp.

If pvp players gain extra rewards for those battles then they literally get it all. No downside to playing pvp at all. Where as a true pve player is always faced with the downside of getting preyed upon by the pvp player.

@wrothamoeba388
It seems like currently ship encounters are fairly uncommon though making pure pvp play extremely unprofitable.

In one encounter though while playing on a sloop solo I got lucky and was able to board another players ship, steal a chest, and return to my own ship only to lead a 45 minute chase that got joined by 2 other ships and crossed the entire map, all over one seafarers chest. It was hilarious and super fun, and since we all were sailing at pretty much the same speed it didn't end until everyone just got tired of chasing me. Oh and i got to stand on the back of the ship and taunt them the entire time.