[Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4)

There are so many ways to protect yourself from aggressive pirates. but ultimately it comes down to how much effort your willing to put into the game.

There is always a way to avoid a fight and always a way to come out on top even against the most skilled pirates.

Ive noticed that many of the complaints about not being able to enjoy voyaging stem from people not being willing to take necessary precautions while on their adventure. its just laziness honestly =/ take the extra time to pay attention and think outside the box and pvp will never be an issue.

that being said. This game isnt meant to be played as purely pve or pvp. people are meant to do voyages with that constant thought that they could be attacked at any moment. Enjoy the adventure.

Offer one hand but arm the other. There is no other way to play.

@arecbalrin My experience in the beta seemed to be much different than yours. I joined a random galleon just to see how it worked. The crew immediate invited me into party chat. +1 for that. They then were straight forward, "We don't care about the quests. We're just attacking other ships. The gold doesn't mean anything in this game so we're having some fun." ...and we did. We found that if you steal a chest off a sloop they will chase you around the map and you can keep sinking them. At the end of the night we just threw the chests into the water. There is no incentive to progress in this game. I know, "become a pirate legend". Why? What does it give you? Cosmetic upgrades they don't help you become a better pirate.
I personally prefer the PvE part of the game, but I know it's pointless. If you want to be the best pirate in SoT then ignore the missions and sink ships.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@deusnecrotis I have to disagree with you on it's easier for PvPers to have a good pure PvP time without PvE encroaching on their game. If you are into pure PvP and that's your thing I still have yet to see a "pure PvPer" to post on these forums. Most people who are defending PvP just like the game as it is. Okay now that that's out of the way here's my reasons why PvPers don't always have this perfect PvP time.

1. As others have stated without PvE PvP would have no loot.
2. You don't have unlimited resources so you are 'forced' into PvE by having to restock as ships don't drop their resources upon sinking them
3. If the person is a pure PvE player 9/10 they will just run and I can tell you long chases are boring AF
4. If the person is a pure PvE player they might just scuttle their ship before you even get a shot off.
5. PvE players screaming at you calling you a griefer for just participating in part of the game you enjoy.

I find so many people in these forums don't look at it from both sides of the argument which is why typically I will side with "pro-pvp" ideas over pro-pve because as I said most people defending PvP are defending PvPvE so they see both sides. You really can't comment on how easy it is for PvPers when you don't experiment with it. NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU Deus this is just a general observation

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@jinxybinx Actually logically it does, because their request is for the loot ie: chests/pigs/chickens how you get the job done is not the merchants concern.
Not to mention I have stated before it is much harder to PvP loot than it is to PvE loot for reasons I will state below:
1- You have to first fight another ship which will be at close to equal power as you and variable skill
2- The ship may not want to fight and may run away which can take a very long time to either drop their anchor or find some other means of immobilizing them
3- The ship may not even have any loot at all after you fought hard to get that loot
4- Even if that ship does have loot you as well have to get it back to the outpost to drop it off as the other ship doing the voyages had to (but this time you will have less resources after fighting)
5- Ontop of all of that you get Rep for completing parts of the voyage, so the PvPer is already missing out on some parts of the Rep

@GareeeT If you would read other posts before posting you'd see there is reasons as to why PvP is not easier than PvE. As for skeleton forts you clearly had much a different experience than us, 3 out of 4 of the times we went to one there was no one there, and we only had to defend against other player 2/4 of the times and one time was only 1 ship once.

Also here is another thread on skeleton forts so I don't have to reiterate other points https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/36546/skeletal-fort-griefers-rant

So all in all i'd say your post is taken from a purely PvE perspective and you haven't even considered looking at it from the PvP point of view as many posts have. If you want a good structured argument with good points you have to look at it from both sides. It's a strategy I use in every game to better myself, If I think something is overpowered in a game and needs balance I will play that aspect of the game to see its downfalls and problems then adapt and use those downfalls to my advantage. instead of just screaming at the sky that it is overpowered and needs to be changed without actually knowing how that feature works.

I think a social hub would be really cool. A place maybe long ago, pirates of old have catpured and clamed their own. Like a big pirate island with all the buildings, with a big tavern where all in game players on the server can gather, play liars dice, drink and play music. Then the dude in the tent off by the shore or docks for people to gather voyages and head off. (But remember once heading out to hostile waters, you and your crew are on your own)

I feel like everyone's response to how to deal with aggressive pirates is basically "be an aggressive pirate or sink your ship and change servers." I don't really see how that helps those players who are wanting to avoid such things completely, and as such is not very helpful. Those types of players signed on to explore or do quests or whatever their goal may be, not to be chased down for their entire play session with evasion tactics or being forced to encounter agressively themselves. This is where the social aspect of the game breaks down because these players are then always on the defensive and will too shoot on sight at any ship because they are a threat.

@jinxybinx Thats because they dont actually know how effectively deal with them. there are alot more ways than that ^.^ but its situational.

@jinxybinx So basically you don't want any PvP in the game is what you are saying? So you wan't a simple collect and return game with no PvP and no risk. If you signed on for this game because you wanted that and pre-ordered, you really should of done your research on this game because PvP and PvE are both critical parts of the game and one needs the other.

As for the social aspect i'm sure with more implementation of content and once the game isn't in a test phase where progress means nothing and you actually have to buy the game, this will flourish.

@mri1ama I think a more constructive way of dealing with this issue would be to post in the newly created pirate tips megathread. then people can look there instead of complaining.

@honusdan Just wait for the full game man. everyone was crazy aggressive due to a lack of content in the very limited betas and scale tests. ^.^

RARE has been pretty good about giving out only a limited amount of info. just wait and see what it really has to offer before hating on the game concept.

@toastywrath I guess I will do a massive post in there or something but I digress, that won't help with people complaining in here as clearly they don't read previous posts in the thread they are posting mate lol.

Also I don't know if I can post a thread there I can't find the option, maybe a deckhand has to start a post? :S

@mri1ama Yeah i have mentioned that a few times x] its also the same reason there are so many clone threads. people just get mad and throw their anger at the community or devs instead of reading around and learning. Hey maybe if we start posting there others will get started too lol. it only takes one ^.^

@toastywrath I hope you're right, but they have some core beliefs that are preventing their ability to make the changes needed.
Core belief 1 - PvP and PvE at the same time.
Core belief 2 - Everyone has equal opportunity. No upgradable ships, tools or weapons.

I preordered. I'm getting the game. I'm just saying that the vision the developers have is not what the game is. Things like friendly outposts or guards aren't going to fix it, but cause more problems.

@honusdan I actually like these concepts. The reason they are an issue is because people simply won’t put in the extra effort to protect themselves while adventuring. That fear of attack while voyaging is what makes it so exciting.

As for the lack of upgrades. Being able to upgrade anything would break the game.

For instance. In sailedship combat speed is everything. People who spec their ships for speed and mobility over defense would dominate completely. As well as completely destroy new players.

No one wants to grind for 30+ hours just to not be a hinderancento their friends.

I don’t see how RARE breaking away from the the grind fest that every game today has turned into is a problem.

I really like the concepts they offer.

@MrI1ama You are right. When I posted this post, I had no idea how servers were working. With that information, the amount of ships you'll see is not gonna be that many so Safe zones are useless.

This is a pve/pvp game. I didn't expect it to be hardcore pvp but it needs pvp still. I think the biggest issue in this game is that there is no risk for an attacker to attack someone at all. To fix this, the bounty system could work. But I feel like, there is other ways like people being able to buy a certain amount of barrels for their ships so they can BUY more bananas, cannon bullets and BEERS !!! So, I think we should be able to spend our gold in buying those ressources. Because everyone will be able to buy those ressources and it shouldn't be too expensive, it won't be an advantage in pvp. But it will cost gold and people will think twice before engaging. Just my new thought.

Also, Becoming a pirate legend allows you to have better quests, more customization, owning a ship and NEW SHIPS so personally, I m going to solo climb the latter until I get everything. Then, I'll most likely find people to play with, do quests with them or just kill people all day depending on how I feel every day.

@toastywrath You are right. Upgrades like a faster ship would break the game. However, a new player coming in contact with any sort of experienced player would get destroyed. This game is a bit complex for it not to have any training.
There still needs to be some incentive other than being a "pirate legend". If they don't than PvP will take over the game and it'll just be another first person shooter.

For example: I think we can see that as you progress you need to acquire more items per mission. It would nice if you leveled up enough you were able to get a secret lair that you could store your chest, chickens, pigs, and skulls in until you are ready to hand them in. This would give you a PvE advantage without a PvP one.

@mri1ama Just because it's an old discussion doesn't mean community members should not post about it. A forum is a place to voice your opinion. Have discussion. Yeah there is four threads of this Mega Thread topic but I'm not going to go back and read 500+ posts when all I wanna convey is NPC ships would be cool feature.

I think developers and designers add features not just for gameplay mechanics but that could potentially fit into the narrative of the game or world. The NPC ships could be Merchant Alliance trading company faction ships making deliveries.

As for why they wouldn't... because they want you to feel the dread of a ship off in the distance not knowing what that player is going to do. All they have to do is make the ships bigger in size or with specific color schemes and sail pattern so you know from a distance if they're NPC or player ships. Give them a Merchant Alliance logo on the sails and a specific color scheme and pattern that only they use (not available for purchase at Shipwright).

It gives players reason to use the Spyglass more and actually be spotters. If you see more ships and have to decide if they might attack or not, whether to evade or not, maybe whether you wish to chase them or not. It's driving that buzzword developers like to use called emergent gameplay. Complex situations.

I just think it sells the world more. Makes it more believable and immersive. This Sea of Thieves region we're at, with countless pirate crews, what draws them there? Treasure lost is one reason but Merchants are another reason. Pirates stealing from Merchants and other Pirates is the trope that makes piracy so interesting.

@honusdan I gues we will just have to wait and see man. I’ve seen games do complete 180s after release haha.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@DrEaMz-SmoKeR @GalacticKeggery @Cipher-8 It has been said time and time again that NPC ships and SAFEZONES will not be implemented in this game and it is honestly bogging down these threads with a crazy amount of posts that have already been addressed.
Why you may ask?
1- rare has stated they like the feeling of not knowing what the ship on the horizon may do. With NPC ships that kills that. And they want every ship in the game to be manned by another person.
2- Safezones break immersion and can be abused in a multitude of ways on both sides PvP and PvE

As for this theme coming up once again that there are these evil PvP players out there. I have yet to see a person on these forums state an opinion that was for more PvP.

This thread is turning into people defending the current balance of PvPvE against things like safezones, NPC ships, and un-needed penalties on PvP/stolen goods. Instead of what it's meant to be which is balancing PvP and PvE together with fresh new ideas. I've seen very few of these fresh new ideas on here but am very interested in discussing them. What I'm not interested in is having to say the same old thing which is no there will not be safezones or NPC ships.

Thank you.
Now can we all in this thread get on track.
Other than those that will come in here, not read previous posts and blabber the same thing again.

I play the game as designed and personally love it. But they asked for suggestions (including ones outside the box), so there will continue to be more of this kind of PvE ↔ PvP compromise discussion - including things that some don't want to hear. It works the same for idea supporters and detractors alike and is inevitable.

What isn't inevitable is Rare sticking to its game play vision guns for the long haul because they just don't know what will work for the masses (and thus keep the lights on) and what won't. Particularly considering that the last time a MMO developer upheld game play ideals they stood by in beta (regardless of population trends post-launch) was, well ... I'm not aware of when that last happened. Maybe in the late 90s or early 2000s before gamers having 40 character attention spans was the norm.

Anyway, I'm good either way really. I'm just wondering how having nowhere to run to will play out after release when (a) the seas are filled with ships and rabid competitions for quest items heats up, and (b) how many less-offensive Merchant Alliance and Order of Souls faction participants will be chased away because of it. Hopefully very few.

@cipher-8 I'm not saying don't post about it because it's an old topic I'm saying don't post about it because RARE has already stated they aren't going to do it. It's like yelling at a McDonald's drive through because they don't sell tacos. (Not sure if they sell tacos somewhere that isn't Canada but in Canada they don't sell tacos you get what I'm saying)

Also if you aren't using your spyglass almost all the time already this may be a reason you get attacked. Just saying because I use mine more than almost any other tool.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@GareeeT If you would read other posts before posting you'd see there is reasons as to why PvP is not easier than PvE.

If you would have actually read my post correctly, you would have realized I never once said that pvp was easier anywhere at all.

My point was that almost every single encounter with another player ended in a pvp experience of some kind. That won't grow a community at all, and enough pvp griefers will kill off the Rare Developer intention of a fun experience for all players.

The same thing has happened in many games before this.. the people who get malicious glee from wreaking havoc in other people's game can kill off the community, and prematurely kill off the game completely.
Thats why I said some features need to be in place so people that DO just do nothing other than PVP have some in game consequence to deal with... that will discourage people from doing nothing but loading up supplies and doing pvp.
I don't want it gone, because lets face it, its a great thrill! BUT there also needs to be some in game system for people just doing nothing but going after other people.

Bounties for other PVP players or something like increased chances of a Kraken attack sinking your ship are much better tools to encourage diverse playing than implementing a report player system and banning, which is what usually happens in big mutliplayer games like this.

@cipher-8 said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):
...all I wanna convey is NPC ships would be cool feature.

I wouldn't mind seeing big raid events like a merchant fleet protected by larger Man-O-Wars transporting valuable cargo, so a swarm of players go after it. I think that would be a great addition.. casual ships ships would be plying the seas as well as pirates.

I also wouldn't mind NPC hunter ships going after excessive PVP players, like we saw in Black Flag... you could still ditch or sink them, but it adds a consequence for not combining both pvp and pve gameplay. If griefers were also having to contend with npc hunter ships, there would be far less incentive to just constantly harass other players.

@gareeet yeah I did see that and my point if YOU would read my post correctly. PvP is harder than PvE so why reduce how much stolen chests are worth. That's just a bad idea since they are already getting minimum gains without getting a reduction on gold/rep for stolen goods.

You want to punish people for playing the game they like to and not the way you like to and that's just wrong.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@gareeet yeah I did see that and my point if YOU would read my post correctly. PvP is harder than PvE so why reduce how much stolen chests are worth. That's just a bad idea since they are already getting minimum gains without getting a reduction on gold/rep for stolen goods.

You want to punish people for playing the game they like to and not the way you like to and that's just wrong.

Pvp isn't harder at all if the gamer's intent is just to go grief other people. And you KNOW there will be a hell of a lot of people doing exactly that.
I suspect thats your intent, and that you hate that there might be some consequences for your actions...LOL!

@gareeet Ah so now you go to personal attacks, good on you model player right here :). Maybe if you'd go through and read some of the other posts you'd maybe educate yourself a bit. But do go on and attack me personally by spouting nonsense instead of actually rebutting my points with logic.

Oh PS. I have said that the amount of people will go down who are "griefing" when the game releases because

1. there will be more to do
2. you can actually progress
3. it's no longer free

Oh and one more thing, before you go spouting griefers maybe you should actually go to the post I linked and educate yourself before using the word wrongfully which you probably are
https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/36546/skeletal-fort-griefers-rant

But again just spout random assumptions, cheers

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@jinxybinx So basically you don't want any PvP in the game is what you are saying? So you wan't a simple collect and return game with no PvP and no risk. If you signed on for this game because you wanted that and pre-ordered, you really should of done your research on this game because PvP and PvE are both critical parts of the game and one needs the other.

As for the social aspect i'm sure with more implementation of content and once the game isn't in a test phase where progress means nothing and you actually have to buy the game, this will flourish.

I never said anything about my personal preferences in the game, hence the reason I am speaking about other players. I pvp myself, but I also understand this is a game for all playstyles and other players have expressed they do not enjoy being chased the entire time when they have no loot and just want to enjoy the game environment for the few hours they have available. It would be best to try to understand all perspectives, not just your own pov and preferences.

@jinxybinx if you have no loot then scuttle your ship if you arent skilled enough to defend yourself or you don't want to. If you keep getting chased by the same ship than hop servers. There are many tools that the game gives you.

And if you don't want to get chased in the first place keep an eye on the horizon and if you see a ship coming your way either take the chance they may be friendly or be proactive about it and run. (If you start running before someone is close then they give up that much easier because they don't have even a slight chance of getting you)

And during the tests I played both playstyles which is why I do make points and give tips in this thread. Whenever I'm full of loot of course I don't want to fight so I get that side. When I just dropped off my loot and see another ship coming to the outpost I'll want to catch and sink them so I get that side.

This game is completely balanced so there is no reason to reduce rewards for PvP when they have the exact same chance and challenges you have

@mri1ama having to scuttle your ship is a faulty solution. This is also just saying the thing I mentioned in my previous post is not helpful or a good solution.

@jinxybinx So you don't want to use the tools rare gives you to defend yourself or stop yourself from getting into a PvP situation in the first place AND you want to punish people for playing the way they want to play which is PvP even though it is a harder route than PvE to get rewards.

I'm trying to understand your train of thought here, I stated before as I was trying to figure out your angle. You say you are speaking for other players and not about your own personal preference on what you want for the game. And yet you vehemently defend that people should have the right to not be attacked and chased even though that is a CORE element to the game?

Sounds like if that is your point of view that this isn't going to be a good game for you or whoever it is you are speaking for. Because people get chased and looted in this game and there is tools to defend against it and if you don't want to use them that is YOUR choice. To say that the game should change because you don't want to use the tools given to you is just silly.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

I have said that the amount of people will go down who are "griefing" when the game releases because

1. there will be more to do
2. you can actually progress
3. it's no longer free

The notion that griefing will decrease when the player population increases is ridiculous on its face yet it continues to make the rounds.

It's as if there's some parallel universe where lack of content is the primary reason griefing occurs, progression is the carrot on the stick for someone that would rather use both the carrot and the stick to shank you, and most griefers don't purchase games. If it all sounds too good to be true, it is.

@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

@jinxybinx So you don't want to use the tools rare gives you to defend yourself or stop yourself from getting into a PvP situation in the first place AND you want to punish people for playing the way they want to play which is PvP even though it is a harder route than PvE to get rewards.

I'm trying to understand your train of thought here, I stated before as I was trying to figure out your angle. You say you are speaking for other players and not about your own personal preference on what you want for the game. And yet you vehemently defend that people should have the right to not be attacked and chased even though that is a CORE element to the game?

Sounds like if that is your point of view that this isn't going to be a good game for you or whoever it is you are speaking for. Because people get chased and looted in this game and there is tools to defend against it and if you don't want to use them that is YOUR choice. To say that the game should change because you don't want to use the tools given to you is just silly.

I don't believe you are actually reading what I have been saying. Also I am not sure where you get the idea I want PvP to be penalized?

To tell a player "your solution is sinking your ship or canceling your game to change servers" is not a tool provided by Rare or a solution to the problem, which is mostly a community issue than really a mechanical one.

@mrloadedpotato I want you to tell me what griefing is to you. Because i've seen so many people use this word and yet I don't think many of them knows what it means. Also the fact you said the population will increase when the game releases doesn't make much sense. It was free before and in a week you will have to pay to play it so the population should be less than what it was on the tests/beta at least for a little while until the word gets around about how good of a game it is.

@jinxybinx You said that you think stolen loot shouldn't give much or any reputation that is penalizing PvP.

One thing I have suggested before is to only allow guild reputation progression work if you actually complete their requests. Turning in random loot should always net you gold, but you should only progress your standing by fulfilling their requests. It just does not seem logical that reputation increases if you never do their actual quests.

@JinxyBinx

Those types of players signed on to explore or do quests or whatever their goal may be, not to be chased down for their entire play session with evasion tactics or being forced to encounter agressively themselves

@MrI1ama

I'm trying to understand your train of thought here, I stated before as I was trying to figure out your angle. You say you are speaking for other players and not about your own personal preference on what you want for the game. And yet you vehemently defend that people should have the right to not be attacked and chased even though that is a CORE element to the game?

I think i've been reading what you've been saying quite fine, How about you flat out say what you want then? I have been reading what you are saying but you are staying vague as to not to commit to anything and you have yet to rebut any points I have made. If you can't accept what i'm saying or make valid counter points then i'm obviously right in my assumptions.

@mri1ama it is only logical that actual quests net reputation. Gold should always be acrued when selling loot. This is not punishing people who participate in pvp because this is a pvpve game.

This also means messages in a bottle, found loot objects, found chests, and cages should not net reputation, and that is a pve element. So in your mindset, it is also punishing pvers?

It is also a bit hypocritical to think people who want to only pve should be forced to also pvp, but people who only want to pvp shouldn't have to participate in pve?

It is ridiculous to assume a person is in a particular group because they defend that group. You don't have to belong in any particular group to see an issue and stand up for it to be fixed for the better. This is true in many things.

I personally enjoy a good canon battle, I also enjoy puzzle solving and exploring. This game has the promise of all of these things. What I want is a balance for all play types.

However, like I said before the issue is mostly a people issue than a mechanical one. I support Rare's vision of a casual social adventure game where it is about creating stories and coming away from the game session with laughs and a smile. This can't happen if players do not learn to hold off on the trigger and approach things differently.