[Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4)

  • 11

    Ahoy thar Pirates of the Fo'Rum!

    @khaleesibot has requested that we close the current round of Mega Threads and remake them for anyone new to the discussion, so here we go!

    To read past discussions, check out this topic here:
    Mega Thread - Part 3
    Mega Thread - Part 2
    Mega Thread - Part 1

    One of the most important topics, the topic of inclusion as we all want to make sure that Sea of Thieves appeals to as many gamers as possible and everyone enjoys the game regardless of their own personal motivations.

    Discuss below.

    Thank you! :D


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    Cast your good eye over the Articles here: The Pirate Code

  • 6

    Stuff that can act as a beacon for PVPers to flock to, like the skull forts, could probably help with giving those that favor PVE more breathing room

    Likewise, I feel like there might not be much yet to really incentives and encourage the more social, friendly interactions that some of the devs in those videos seem quite fond of happening. Instead more often than not, people shoot first, ask questions later.

  • 11

    Ok so round 4, hopefully this time we can be constructive and not mud slinging savages.

    I'll kick off with some options that I've seen around, i hope they take your interest.

    Firstly - while the concensus is "NO SAFE ZONES" there is a general strong request for a social space possibly out of lobby, for meeting up with friends or playing some minigames. As long as it remains unable to cash in any quest items then I'm all for this, there is even the unused space above the tavern that could drop you out of lobby into this shared social space.

    Secondly - there is an interesting discussion taking place by @airikr01 on having a singular secured outpost. Not safe but patroled by guards and manned by a fort like defence. This would provide some safety and hopefully drive more reason for passive encounters.

    Finally - there is many concerns over longevity, lack of content, no viable progression and how this leads to hostilities in game. My resolve to this would be circular progression.
    Three points if power with a top and tail value, upgrading a ship in one feature reduces the other two features.
    This creates variable ships with variable features however none is stronger than another,maintaing ballance while fufilling a need for progression and change. This also allows players to adapt ships to their needs, ie a pve player may wish for a faster ship to avoid conflict, a pvp player may wish for a more durable ship so they can engage in combat for longer.

    In light of the final point my three referred points of power would be speed, manoeuvrability and durability. The durability being a variable of the rate in which water enters through an unpatched hole.

    There are some start points.

  • 6

    @laughsmaniacaly said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

    Ok so round 4, hopefully this time we can be constructive and not mud slinging savages.

    I'm hoping that myself.

    I'll kick off with some options that I've seen around, i hope they take your interest.

    Firstly - while the concensus is "NO SAFE ZONES" there is a general strong request for a social space possibly out of lobby, for meeting up with friends or playing some minigames. As long as it remains unable to cash in any quest items then I'm all for this, there is even the unused space above the tavern that could drop you out of lobby into this shared social space.

    I've had a thought along along these lines that has gained a tiny amount of traction among a few players, so I'll try it again here. An "afterlife social club" below decks on the Ferry of the Damned with some simple minigames, a bar, maybe a stage to dance and play ghost instruments on, etc. I feel like this would be a pretty ideal place for a "safe" zone since it already is one, and players are already allowed to stay aboard as long as they like, so why not give them a few little odds and ends to do while they're there? As a side note, there could also be two exit doors aboard the Ferry, one that leads back to where you died, and one that start a new "life" someplace else on the map.

    Secondly - there is an interesting discussion taking place by @airikr01 on having a singular secured outpost. Not safe but patroled by guards and manned by a fort like defence. This would provide some safety and hopefully drive more reason for passive encounters.

    I have also made a suggestion pretty similar to that. It doesn't violate the no NPC ships thing, and if properly executed players could still at least try to rob you while you're there, it would just be more challenging and dangerous. An alternate version could be a purely socially enforced "safe" zone that has "rules of conduct" that players have to enforce among themselves... although that idea could really quickly fall flat on it's face if enough players don't go along with it.

    Finally - there is many concerns over longevity, lack of content, no viable progression and how this leads to hostilities in game. My resolve to this would be circular progression.
    Three points if power with a top and tail value, upgrading a ship in one feature reduces the other two features.
    This creates variable ships with variable features however none is stronger than another,maintaing ballance while fufilling a need for progression and change. This also allows players to adapt ships to their needs, ie a pve player may wish for a faster ship to avoid conflict, a pvp player may wish for a more durable ship so they can engage in combat for longer.

    In light of the final point my three referred points of power would be speed, manoeuvrability and durability. The durability being a variable of the rate in which water enters through an unpatched hole.

    I kind of like the idea of a power triangle mechanic, though I'm not 100% sure it would work for this game. It's definitely something to consider though. Here's some additional thoughts...
    What if the three point on the triangle were Movement, Durability, and Firepower? Your ship can carry 2 upgrades and each point has has 2 possible upgrades, so if you get just one (from, lets say, Speed for example) you lose from only one other triangle point, but if you get both you lose from both other points. For example, Movement could have a bonus for Speed (Double Weave Sails or something, adds a bigger speed bonus when catching full wind in your sails, but being too heavy defeats the sails so reduced Durability) and one for turning (Twin Rudders, cuts your turn radius but turning so fast means you need lighter cannons to keep them from ripping free, so reduced Firepower. The two upgrades for Durability could be a reduction of the rate water enters through holes along with an increase to the amount of water your ship can be flooded with before the game calls it sunk and stops letting you interact with ship objects. There could be several potential firepower upgrades, like fire rate, range, cannon aiming speed, or even a "heavy" ball that has a chance to punch two holes at once... not really sure which of those would be best to include though.

    There are some start points.

    There are a few more :D Thanks for reading!

  • 4

    Since it's a new thread again I'd like to take this opportunity to briefly reiterate my thoughts on where the central imbalance lies.

    If, upon logging in for any particular play session, I decide I want to play pure PvE, simply enjoying the sailing, exploring and et cetera, I can't really do that, since if I want to actually avoid harassment by other pirates I need to constantly engage in PvP avoidance activities, keeping an eye on the horizon and changing course anytime someone shows up in my path... PvP, and the potential for PvP, routinely insinuates itself on my PvE gameplay, no two ways about it.

    On the other hand, if I log in only looking to fight other pirates, the game's PvE mechanics will rarely, if ever, actively hunt me down, pursue me, or otherwise force themselves into my PvP gameplay. Yeah, maybe the Kraken will do that when it's in the game, but I doubt it will have anywhere near the omnipresence that other pirates do.

    In short, if you want to avoid dying/sinking a lot, PvP activities are more or less obligatory, but if you don't mind spending some extra time, or better yet if you just don't care about progression, PvE activities are much more optional.

    So, the question then becomes, what to do? In truth, the answer may be "nothing" since the game seems to already be quite popular and successful. RARE, however, has again chosen to make a new version of this thread, with a new, more clearly stated goal, rather than closing it down entirely like the PvE Servers and Safe Zones discussions. This suggests that, while it may be too close to launch for any significant changes right away, they are still watching this topic with an eye towards future updates.

    Finally, I think ideas for possible changes should try to meet at least one or two of the following suggestions.

    • Suggestions should try to expand players' capabilities and freedoms, not curtail them. For example, instead of attempting to limit or punish especially exuberant PvP players, PvE supporters should try to suggest things that boost their own enjoyment and give them a sense of reward even when they get sunk and or killed before finishing a voyage.

    • The word "inclusive" was italicized in the OP for this mega thread so I hope we see a reduction in the various versions of "this game is not for you, don't buy it." It's ok if that's your opinion, this just isn't the best place to be expressing it, at least not over and over again.

    • Just to be extra clear, there used to be a mega thread for Safe Zones and PvE servers, but it was closed down with a statement that RARE is not looking into that anymore, and for the foreseeable future. I feel like its still ok to mention your desire for those things once, but it's pretty unproductive to spend a lot of posts on it or get into arguments with people who mention that those ideas are currently off the table.

    • RARE has put out a lot of YouTube videos, as well as a fair amount of written material in various places, talking about their intentions for the game. It always a good idea to at least glance through some of that to see if something your thinking about suggesting has already been talked about in some way. For example, some have suggested a system of flags that would show which players do the most PvP, however RARE has stated multiple times that they want "What is that ship on the horizon gonna do?" to be a thought that goes through your head every time you see one, so an obligatory flag system is unlikely to be well received.

    • Finally, this is an open discussion, don't be afraid to post your ideas even if they might not be very popular... Even if you're part of a small group within the community, RARE still wants to hear from you, even if only to know how many of you there really are. The key, of course, is to stay friendly and civil, as that is the most effective way to get people to actually read your ideas, rather than just skimming though looking for things to argue against.

    As always, thanks for having the courage and fortitude to read all the way through one of my monstrously huge posts :D

  • 0

    I think it would be good if you sink someone's ship in cannons battle that you get some reward example :

    To have some table on board in ship that everyone can see what you get for battles

    That you have some badges on your clothes like in army ( i think this is good one )

    Put your ideas now boiis ;) aaaarargghhhh

  • 1

    @LaughsManiacaly "Ok so round 4, hopefully this time we can be constructive and not mud slinging savages."

    NEH!! I mean, AYE!!!!

  • 6

    I don't feel that PvE and PvP in this game are completely separate and nor should they be. The only extrinsic reward for PvP in the game comes from any loot the other ship might have onboard, which ultimately must come from exploration or voyages. So I disagree with @deusnecrotis in regards to PvE not encroaching on PvP: the material gains of PvE are the only source of material gains for PvP.

    If people who only want to PvE were ever given the option to avoid PvP completely, they would take it and PvPers would be aversely affected. If the Bison of Yellowstone could go anywhere the Wolves could not, the Wolves would starve and die out.

  • 0

    @arecbalrin said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

    I don't feel that PvE and PvP in this game are completely separate and nor should they be. The only extrinsic reward for PvP in the game comes from any loot the other ship might have onboard, which ultimately must come from exploration or voyages. So I disagree with @deusnecrotis in regards to PvE not encroaching on PvP: the material gains of PvE are the only source of material gains for PvP.

    If people who only want to PvE were ever given the option to avoid PvP completely, they would take it and PvPers would be aversely affected. If the Bison of Yellowstone could go anywhere the Wolves could not, the Wolves would starve and die out.

    Yeah, what he said!

  • 1

    @arecbalrin said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

    I don't feel that PvE and PvP in this game are completely separate and nor should they be. The only extrinsic reward for PvP in the game comes from any loot the other ship might have onboard, which ultimately must come from exploration or voyages. So I disagree with @deusnecrotis in regards to PvE not encroaching on PvP: the material gains of PvE are the only source of material gains for PvP.

    Thanks for your reply matey! Agreed, if loot is what you're after then pure PvP is a terribly inefficient way to go about it and the need to do quests to speed up your progress is an undeniable encroachment. As far as game rewards go, things are pretty well balanced... you have to spend time and attention on both PvE and PvP in order to progress well, but your options are fairly open as to how you want to divide those efforts. Still, setting aside in-game rewards and focusing instead on gameplay mechanics and the enjoyment derived from engaging in them, it's much easier to achieve an enjoyable pure PvP session than it is to achieve an enjoyable pure PvE session. Or, at least, it seems that way to me. Always interested to hear counter-points.

    If people who only want to PvE were ever given the option to avoid PvP completely, they would take it and PvPers would be aversely affected. If the Bison of Yellowstone could go anywhere the Wolves could not, the Wolves would starve and die out.

    Yeah I don't think there should be any true separation, just a way to make it easier to get at least occasional pure PvE enjoyment out of the game. Thanks for reading!

    Please feel free to ignore the rest of this, as I am about to turn into a know-it-all tree hugging eco-protester :D

    Actually, last time I was at Yellowstone they had only one pack of wolves (the Slough Creek pack if I remember) that actively engaged in regular bison hunts. All the other packs hunted elk, deer, rabbits, and so forth, but only ate bison when they found one already dead. Also, there are at times a few places bison can go that wolves usually don't. In deep, fresh fallen snow, a bison's sheer strength and height allow it to plow into snow fields that are soft and deep enough for a wolf to have to leap up over the top of the snow, then fall back through, with every step. While wolves can do this if pressed, it's usually only a matter of life and death the will get them to try. Couldn't find a gif of an actual wolf doing this, so here's someone's dog instead.

    Ok done being Ranger Rick now. Sorry about that. Thanks again for reading

  • 2

    In the Final Beta especially anytime I saw another ship they would chase and engage me in combat by shooting first. Other players I met in other crews only wanted to kill/sink/destroy. Always. Even in cases where I had no loot on my ship, they would engage with intent to sink. I am sure this will continue over to the production game because gamers are instinctively aggressive. Those players interested in that activity should be able to do so - I personally don't like the idea of safe zones.

    Maybe it's a matter of giving ships a combat flag to fly so that you can tell from a distance that the ship coming your way is likely to engage. I'm not suggesting this flag should be something the crew chooses manually. I'm thinking it automatically flies if a crew has purposely engaged another ship in battle / goes away if the ship passes another 'passive' ship's proximity without firing upon them. Already, combat music begins when the first shot is fired so it seems as if the game knows when this is happening.

    Perhaps showing tick marks on a ship indicating how many vessels that crew's sunk in that session (when their combat flag is flying) would be an additional sort of vanity display and threat to any crew that came to take them on. (Nicely visible through telescope too!) Though in the system I'm describing, you would only get tick marks for sinking ships that were flying a combat flag when the battle began and not firing upon those that were sailing peacefully (the flag only switches to combat when/if you initiate battle). Perhaps the number of tick marks then also had some kind of impact/multiplier on the chests you have aboard if you're able to cash them in without sinking/losing your streak or before cashing everything in at an outpost.

    An additional wrinkle could be some sort of "wanted level" on your ship that made you more of a target to ships that are also flying combat flags (some indication on the flag itself that you have loot aboard above a certain value). Or the wanted level would increase the number of skeletons that would pop out at you on islands if you had a high streak and stopped on an island to do something for a voyage or farm supplies.

  • 4

    Ok I have really been thinking about this and come to this conclusion.

    Reasons why interaction fails over pvp:
    You cant trade with crews
    You cant team with crews
    You sometimes cant even talk with crews (no mic/discord)
    Pros for pvp:
    You might get loot
    You kill things

    Its as simple as that. I swear you guys watched black sails. Why cant we police and team with pirates to make trade!

    You got a merchant alliance which has turned into microsofts chicken run. The viva pinata stuff should not be the soul of the alliance.

  • 0

    @laughsmaniacaly there is good and bad about the social space.
    Good - it'll be fun to have like a pirate bar with poker or games you can gamble your gold on, talk with other pirates, maybe for a small alliance or recruit other crews to take on skeleton forts and figure out the loot. or even have a cool trinket that you're wanna sell to other players.

    Bad - you also gotta think that people like us who would love something like this to get even more into the game. there are people that suck lol. imagine the trolls that would just sit there and complain, talk crap, scream crazy loud into the microphone. I'll just destroy the social space.

  • 3

    @deusnecrotis I have to disagree with you on it's easier for PvPers to have a good pure PvP time without PvE encroaching on their game. If you are into pure PvP and that's your thing I still have yet to see a "pure PvPer" to post on these forums. Most people who are defending PvP just like the game as it is. Okay now that that's out of the way here's my reasons why PvPers don't always have this perfect PvP time.

    1. As others have stated without PvE PvP would have no loot.
    2. You don't have unlimited resources so you are 'forced' into PvE by having to restock as ships don't drop their resources upon sinking them
    3. If the person is a pure PvE player 9/10 they will just run and I can tell you long chases are boring AF
    4. If the person is a pure PvE player they might just scuttle their ship before you even get a shot off.
    5. PvE players screaming at you calling you a griefer for just participating in part of the game you enjoy.

    I find so many people in these forums don't look at it from both sides of the argument which is why typically I will side with "pro-pvp" ideas over pro-pve because as I said most people defending PvP are defending PvPvE so they see both sides. You really can't comment on how easy it is for PvPers when you don't experiment with it. NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU Deus this is just a general observation

    @LaughsManiacaly as for your comments I do not agree at all with a "protected" outpost. As I have stated many times this game gives you a bunch of tools to defend yourself and avoid harm as it is. Adding a protected outpost is just easy mode. Just to play devil's advocate if it was implemented it would have to give like only 50% payout for rep/gold compared to other outposts because of lack of risk

    As for having a social hub I am 100% for this I love the idea. I've seen a post that goes into more detail of what it could include. But if it were implemented it would have to be something like this to avoid abuse.

    1. To enter you have to go through a portal or something and you cannot go through the portal if you have taken any damage or fired a cannon in the last 5 minutes.
    2. Any chests/loot of any form would be destroyed upon entering the social hub
  • 0

    @superpac Maybe, if they be griefing the seas, not the only flag goes black but the sails as well. I'd go as far as saying the entire ship but that may be going overboard. Pardon the pun. But I like the idea, Frontier Development is making strides to punish pvpers that have gone across the line. Rare will at some HAVE to follow suit. Honestly they don't have a choice. Unless they want to burn out players.

  • 1

    @r0b0tmonkey
    Your right, maybe a mute local player function might do well.

  • 1

    @mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

    @deusnecrotis I have to disagree with you on it's easier for PvPers to have a good pure PvP time without PvE encroaching on their game. If you are into pure PvP and that's your thing I still have yet to see a "pure PvPer" to post on these forums. Most people who are defending PvP just like the game as it is. Okay now that that's out of the way here's my reasons why PvPers don't always have this perfect PvP time.

    1. As others have stated without PvE PvP would have no loot.
    2. You don't have unlimited resources so you are 'forced' into PvE by having to restock as ships don't drop their resources upon sinking them
    3. If the person is a pure PvE player 9/10 they will just run and I can tell you long chases are boring AF
    4. If the person is a pure PvE player they might just scuttle their ship before you even get a shot off.
    5. PvE players screaming at you calling you a griefer for just participating in part of the game you enjoy.

    I find so many people in these forums don't look at it from both sides of the argument which is why typically I will side with "pro-pvp" ideas over pro-pve because as I said most people defending PvP are defending PvPvE so they see both sides. You really can't comment on how easy it is for PvPers when you don't experiment with it. NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU Deus this is just a general observation

    Yeah, those are some good points. I honestly hadn't considered the need to collect resources... not sure why, it's totally obvious... thanks for pointing that out in particular, especially since while you can board enemies and steal their resources, that is in no way reliable enough to keep you stocked all the time. Also hadn't considered the players yelling at you, although to be fair on rarer occasions a PvE player also has to put up with being called a noob, coward, or whatever, just because they tried to run away. One other thing, in all honesty I really am one of those people who hasn't experimented with PvP, though I do try to think carefully about the other perspective before I say things. I also appreciate when people point out the obvious errors that I've missed due to my lack of experience, so again thanks for that.

    As for having a social hub I am 100% for this I love the idea. I've seen a post that goes into more detail of what it could include. But if it were implemented it would have to be something like this to avoid abuse.

    1. To enter you have to go through a portal or something and you cannot go through the portal if you have taken any damage or fired a cannon in the last 5 minutes.
    2. Any chests/loot of any form would be destroyed upon entering the social hub

    Yeah, those two things are why I think it might be a good idea to locate the social club on the Ferry of the Damned, since it already imposes those two requirements in it's own way (not being able to escape battle and not being able to protect loot). On the flip side though, it might make it kind of awkward to use the social club for planning voyages with random other pirates/crews, since you both need to be dead first.

  • 0

    @mri1ama
    Myself could take or leave outpost protection as i see it similar to yourself, in 99% of situations you can normally avoid a conflict by general observations however to post both sides of that fence it is something that a lot of members xomplain about so it was worth noting a potential for a non safe safe zone compliant with current in game features and coding, i can't take responsibility for the idea as i mentioned in the initial post, that idea came from @airikr01 not myself and i was impressed with the notion of aiding pveers without removing the pvp potential entirely.

    As for social space, there are ten to the dozen ideas out there and i agree that i see it as an out of game area for socialising and minigames.

    Out of interest, what as your thoughts on the ship customisation idea?

  • 2

    @deusnecrotis Yeah the only problem i'd have with the social hub being on the ferry of the damned is. If I ever went into a matchmade game and I had someone on my crew who was just chilling in the ferry of the damned instead of helping the crew it puts a handicap on that crew. This is a problem as it is right now with spawning is that you can only brig your crew member and not kick them. For example I unknowingly put a handicap on my crewmates because I was with a group of my friends and we were all going to get off but I died and instead of getting off I sat on the ferry of the damned writing bug reports and forums posts and forgot I was on there and that other people could join my crew, so they were sailing with a man down for a good 10 minutes. I felt really bad lol.

    This game really needs to add a invite only option, sure they have it where you can invite your friend, but what if that friend leaves and you want to invite another one and some random person joins. That really sucks.

    Also I think you should be able to change your ship mid game instead of having to back out. Like what if you were a crew of 3 and one friend left, and instead of wanting to get a 3rd person you want to switch to sloop, well then you have to completely close out of your session and matchmake again.

    @LaughsManiacaly I could see that being a decent idea to spice up the ships instead of it being two ships it could be a variance of those two ships with pro's and con's associated with each variant. It would have to be executed well and balanced accordingly which I don't know if the dev team wants to try and get into right now before adding other content, but it is definitely something to consider for the longevity of the game. I'm all for it as long as it's executed properly and doesn't end up being one build dominates the others and you can access all variants from the get-go and don't have to unlock them as to keep horizontal progression. Personally as it is right now I think the sloop needs another cannon, I don't get why the galleon has 1 cannon per crew member and sloop only has 1 cannon for two people. Kinda odd imo.

  • 1

    One thing I have suggested before is to only allow guild reputation progression work if you actually complete their requests. Turning in random loot should always net you gold, but you should only progress your standing by fulfilling their requests. It just does not seem logical that reputation increases if you never do their actual quests.

  • 1

    @mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

    @deusnecrotis Yeah the only problem i'd have with the social hub being on the ferry of the damned is. If I ever went into a matchmade game and I had someone on my crew who was just chilling in the ferry of the damned instead of helping the crew it puts a handicap on that crew. This is a problem as it is right now with spawning is that you can only brig your crew member and not kick them. For example I unknowingly put a handicap on my crewmates because I was with a group of my friends and we were all going to get off but I died and instead of getting off I sat on the ferry of the damned writing bug reports and forums posts and forgot I was on there and that other people could join my crew, so they were sailing with a man down for a good 10 minutes. I felt really bad lol.

    This game really needs to add a invite only option, sure they have it where you can invite your friend, but what if that friend leaves and you want to invite another one and some random person joins. That really sucks.

    Also I think you should be able to change your ship mid game instead of having to back out. Like what if you were a crew of 3 and one friend left, and instead of wanting to get a 3rd person you want to switch to sloop, well then you have to completely close out of your session and matchmake again.

    Ooh, yeah... once again, all very good points. Not only would it be annoying to have a randomly grouped crew mate suddenly decide to just hang out on the Ferry, if there was a lot to do there it would almost certainly happen more often. That could probably be fixed by a more extensive in-game crew management system. You would need to be able to vote to remove a player from your crew, turning them into a solo player and giving them a choice to either log out, find a new crew to join on the same instance, or just stay solo. You would also need a way to invite random solo players you meet into your crew, so evicted crew members could try to find new crews without having to re-log. Also, I have heard from a few of the more (semi-)reliable rumor mills that the ability to lock your crew at three, to avoid unwanted fourth players, is already planned for at or soon after launch. Don't remember hearing that from actual RARE though, so grain of salt on that one.

    @LaughsManiacaly I could see that being a decent idea to spice up the ships instead of it being two ships it could be a variance of those two ships with pro's and con's associated with each variant. It would have to be executed well and balanced accordingly which I don't know if the dev team wants to try and get into right now before adding other content, but it is definitely something to consider for the longevity of the game. I'm all for it as long as it's executed properly and doesn't end up being one build dominates the others and you can access all variants from the get-go and don't have to unlock them as to keep horizontal progression. Personally as it is right now I think the sloop needs another cannon, I don't get why the galleon has 1 cannon per crew member and sloop only has 1 cannon for two people. Kinda odd imo.

    Yeah, exactly all of that. GG mate.

  • 1

    @jinxybinx Actually logically it does, because their request is for the loot ie: chests/pigs/chickens how you get the job done is not the merchants concern.
    Not to mention I have stated before it is much harder to PvP loot than it is to PvE loot for reasons I will state below:
    1- You have to first fight another ship which will be at close to equal power as you and variable skill
    2- The ship may not want to fight and may run away which can take a very long time to either drop their anchor or find some other means of immobilizing them
    3- The ship may not even have any loot at all after you fought hard to get that loot
    4- Even if that ship does have loot you as well have to get it back to the outpost to drop it off as the other ship doing the voyages had to (but this time you will have less resources after fighting)
    5- Ontop of all of that you get Rep for completing parts of the voyage, so the PvPer is already missing out on some parts of the Rep

  • 0

    @mri1ama that isn't quite true. The merchant guild is looking for specific items to help them find a particular thing called Athena's Fortune or some kind of key. As stated by a deckhand in another thread regarding this topic:

    @katttruewalker said in I feel like this need's to be said and i hope everyone will not be super aggressive at launch.:

    @jinxybinx I'll agree with that, I've been thinking that for a while now - that the Traders send you on specific quests because they have information which will gain them progress towards finding... Athena's Fortune, a key... something. Therefore the treasures we return are specific to their needs and anything else should be of less value to them.

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    @jinxybinx To be fair, I've taken that from hints I've read and the suggestions from the dialogue -

    Not everyone you'll encounter makes their living as a pirate. Alongside the shopkeepers and shipwrights who ply their trades at outposts, you'll find representatives of various Companies ranging from legitimate businesses to secret societies. These Companies have their own reasons for braving the Sea of Thieves, and will be only too happy to reward crews willing to undertake dangerous work on their behalf.

    You'll cross paths with settlers too, plying their trades or looking to employ the skills of bold seafarers to further their own agendas.

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    I've been giving this a lot of thought over the past few weeks. I've seen a lot of good ideas and a lot of problems with these good ideas. The combination of PvP with PvE is essential to the philosophy of the game. The players that prefer PvP wish they could find other ships more frequently while players that prefer PvE wish they would find either less ships or more friendly ones. Once the game starts the more you prefer PvP the less you'll advance through the PvE ranks. To the extreme that being a Pirate Legend is pointless and cannon balls are the highest form of currency. Those that are more PvE focused will fly through the ranks and wear their Legend status with pride.

    If you are skimming everything else I said is just blah, blah, blah but here is the important part:
    Use intelligent watchmaking. Group like minded thieves together in a very easy way. Use two factors, rank and time in game. Those with low rank and lots of time played can be focused in their own seas. Those with high rank can be focused in their own seas. Newer players should always be put with newer players.

    This type of matchmaking will allow for epic PvP battles and likewise epic PwPvE partnerships. Being placed in your sea in a semi-random way may prove more effective than completely random.
    ...sorry this was long

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    @honusdan I don't think anyone will exclusively PvP; it will be more a case of doing voyages and reacting to other opportunities that come along. This is the only difference between PvE players and PvP ones: the PvE players avoid ships, so they only PvE, but PvPers move to engage.

    This is one of the quirks and in another thread about wanting to say "I am friendly, I don't want to fight" I argued that first of all, in a lawless frontier "I am friendly" and "I don't want to fight" are almost exactly opposite. The only way to avoid a fight is to be the most aggressive side at first contact. Friendly people should always be assumed to be playing a trick.

    This may explain why PvPers struggle to find opponents and PvEers find a surplus of them. It's not just negative confirmation bias, where they perceive their problems as being bigger than they are. They sign-post their intent by what they do as soon as they see another ship and the other ship reads it accurately. It goes:

    1. We see a ship, let's go the other way = They are risk-averse because they might have loot.

    2. Another ship, carry on but keep an eye on them = They're going somewhere but in no hurry, so just started a voyage then or exploring.

    3. That ship might have something, get after them = They are coming for us, so they don't have loot to risk in a fight.

    So PvPers avoid people trying to fight them because there is nothing to gain, the other side is risking nothing for something. They go instead for people trying to get away, because they have loot to risk probably. PvE crews run no matter what. Both would benefit from acting as if other ships did not exist but covertly watching them carefully for any change in behaviour.

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    @r0b0tmonkey I would love to be able to wage on mini games!

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    I personnaly think that what the game needs is like EVE ONLINE. Eve online gave me so many great feelings while playing it for many good reasons that SEA OF THIEVES could share.

    First,

    The potiential of destroying someone's day. Yes , I know, this might be rude but EVE is all about this. When people farm for days to get a ship than you destroy it. It feels good. So, my point is that money should be hard to make. Well, obviously, I have no idea how hard/easy it is to make money but it didn't seem that hard in the beta. We don't buy ships with money in this game but just being able to steal/destroy someone gold and if it means something, it'd be great. Of course, Im personnally a pvp player but I'll do Pve as well because it is the only way to become a pirat legend!

    Second,

    To continue with the first point, I think they should add zone that newbies can't get killed while selling their chests. If they are thinking of increasing the map's size, the first zone could be the newbie's zone and then, the rest are riskier but more rewarding. I'm saying this because I'm afraid that with the CLAN/ALLIANCE that could be coming in a few months, one BIG alliance could decide to take control of all the outposts and nobody outside that alliance would be able to sale any chests. I'm just looking for a way to balance things.

    To finish,

    Im pretty much done here. I really like discussings about things such as this so thank you for giving us the opportunity and I will be waiting to se what people think about this.

    NB: English is my second language so I'd appreciate if people understand I most likely have multiple mistakes in this text. Also, if someone is willing to explain me those, it'd be great!

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    This has to be the most passive version of the mega thread I have seen.

    It's refreshing

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    I posted this in another thread not knowing about this one. So I apologize upfront for the repetition.

    A point was accurately made that the high seas should remain lawless. Being a dyed in the wool pirate game they absolutely should be. But the intent of this discussion as expressed in the OP is: "One of the most important topics, the topic of inclusion as we all want to make sure that Sea of Thieves appeals to as many gamers as possible and everyone enjoys the game regardless of their own personal motivations."

    That means hard cores & casuals alike ... PvPers & PvEers alike.

    To that end I personally feel there needs to be at least one safe harbor port (sort of ... read on) for each faction (think Port Royal) where players who enjoy PvE can turn in specific PvE quest chests without getting ganked in the process. Those ports of call would likely become main social hubs, which in turn would benefit the game greatly as it IS a MMO. Before blowing up the idea, please understand that safe harbor ports would NOT be the only locations for turning in chests as their functionality for doing so would be limited.

    The idea is not to funnel all chest turn-ins to safe havens, but rather merely some of them so all players have an option to advance more, well ... casually. Hell, even having a mere 20% of the game's quests end in safe haven turn-ins, leaving the other 80% for open world PvP turn-ins, would likely be enough to satisfy and retain the more casual players. Otherwise they will leave and the few hundred (perhaps thousand?) or so hard core PvPers will be all that's left playing. Which I have my doubts would be enough to sustain this amazing game.

    And it would be those few safe harbor ports where enforcing player character bounties could be assisted by defending NPCs.

    Defending NPCs? Here the idea ...

    As an example: one of the more fun ad-hoc events (for me anyway) in World of Warcraft are the "For the Alliance!" and "For the Horde!" faction raids, where one faction forms a massive raiding party and attacks the other faction's capitol city to defeat its leader. In those events raiding parties have to defeat the city guards as well as player characters who come to the aid of their faction's home town. Not only are those massive and intense battles but players are also awarded an achievement, title and mount for victory.

    Building up something similar in this game could be awesome. Taking out a safe harbor's leader then plundering shops for raid-reserved items could really enhance the experience. Local PvE characters who die in the raid simply respawn at multiple random spawn points on the island (making it harder to camp them) with nothing lost but what they had on their ship, which if they were smart wouldn't be much. Retreating raids would likely draw chasing player character ships as well and essentially "take the fight outside" ... spawning a great sea battle in the process. The caveat is that safe harbor defenses should be such that it would require a raiding ARMADA to be victorious.

    PvE casuals who take to the high seas take their chances against PvP pirates as well as PvE mobs: from skeletons to the Kraken. PvP hard cores who take to safe harbor raids, be it against an entire port or just one docked or anchored ship, should have to take equal chances against PvE mobs ... from port patrol fodder to more highly trained local constabulary to cannon defense posts ... in addition to player-controlled privateers who answer the call to defend their port.

    There are so many things this game could incorporate to not only attract but keep casual privateers, whose retention may be the determining factor for how long this game stays afloat (pun intended), while maintaining tons of scallywag pirate action for the hard cores. Providing players who aren't hard core with some semblance of in-game safe harbor where they can hang out or take a bio & beverage break without their characters dying ... however limited ... would help quite a bit to promote that retention I think. Those who are against safe harbor towns can either form an armada to raid them, dock at one and chill for a bit themselves, or simply plunder the other 99.9% of the game's open world.

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    @katttruewalker said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

    @jinxybinx To be fair, I've taken that from hints I've read and the suggestions from the dialogue -

    Not everyone you'll encounter makes their living as a pirate. Alongside the shopkeepers and shipwrights who ply their trades at outposts, you'll find representatives of various Companies ranging from legitimate businesses to secret societies. These Companies have their own reasons for braving the Sea of Thieves, and will be only too happy to reward crews willing to undertake dangerous work on their behalf.

    You'll cross paths with settlers too, plying their trades or looking to employ the skills of bold seafarers to further their own agendas.

    Great finds! I still think that this justifies logically that completing voyages from the guilds should be more important in guild rep than turning in random loot.

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    It's been mentioned a thousand times before but I think post-launch content will probably add in some form of Factions based around area control. Like a larger more popular island you must control it for a certain amount of time patrolling the area keeping it safe for your faction. When it's contested then you gotta battle. Opposing faction players will come in and try to take over/capture the area. This should draw some of the PVP/griefer players just looking for combat away from the Outposts and towards designated areas of combat. Their game system can dynamically change which area they are at but mainly around larger islands would be best. I just think they need to give all those PVP'ers something to do mainly besides Skeleton Forts/The Order of Souls voyages.

    Then they could add Wanted Posters as additional content similar to passive quests/side quests like Messages in a Bottle. They would glimmer and sparkle too but be placed somewhere in Outposts. They would be tied in with the Factions system. Accepting a wanted poster places a bounty on opposing members of warring factions or griefers (someone who's recently killed you or a member of your faction). They mark your map with a last known location or maybe a large(r) generalized area for you to get a gist of where to look for them. Your tasked with tracking them down and killing them.

    I also think they should add in Merchant ships. (They can make them NPC controlled Merchant Alliance to fit the narrative). This gives PVP focused players ships to attack other than other players. These Merchant Ships would go from A to B. Outpost A to Outpost B. A set path. If you sink it the loot floats to the surface for you to take. Mostly cages of animals or full crates of cannonballs, bananas, wood planks. Some explosive barrels. You know the usual Merchant Alliance fare. They could even drop a specific voyage ledger that you can pick up and propose to start that voyage so when you turn in the loot.

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    @twistedt23 said in [Mega Thread] - Balance between PvE and PvP elements, to ensure a great experience for everyone (Part 4):

    @r0b0tmonkey I would love to be able to wage on mini games!

    alt text

    Oh yeah!

    i posted most of my thoughts on card/dice mini-games in other various threads but I feel like the game needs more gold dumps. Ship customization and character and item cosmetics only go so far. You choose the ones you wanna rep and there's no point in buying anymore unless you're the collector type. Personally I would rather wager my gold in these gambling games and try to amass a fortune (in case there is a leaderboard tracking total gold/monthly gold/weekly gold).

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    @DrEaMz-SmoKeR @GalacticKeggery @Cipher-8 It has been said time and time again that NPC ships and SAFEZONES will not be implemented in this game and it is honestly bogging down these threads with a crazy amount of posts that have already been addressed.
    Why you may ask?
    1- rare has stated they like the feeling of not knowing what the ship on the horizon may do. With NPC ships that kills that. And they want every ship in the game to be manned by another person.
    2- Safezones break immersion and can be abused in a multitude of ways on both sides PvP and PvE

    As for this theme coming up once again that there are these evil PvP players out there. I have yet to see a person on these forums state an opinion that was for more PvP.

    This thread is turning into people defending the current balance of PvPvE against things like safezones, NPC ships, and un-needed penalties on PvP/stolen goods. Instead of what it's meant to be which is balancing PvP and PvE together with fresh new ideas. I've seen very few of these fresh new ideas on here but am very interested in discussing them. What I'm not interested in is having to say the same old thing which is no there will not be safezones or NPC ships.

    Thank you.
    Now can we all in this thread get on track.
    Other than those that will come in here, not read previous posts and blabber the same thing again.

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    We were new to SOT on the last beta, and I'll share our observations:
    In about 12 hours of playing we only encountered one ship that didn't fire on us, and that was a single guy in a sloop. Every single other ship came after us if they saw us, and that ended in one of the other ships being sunk.
    Needless to say, seeing other players was more a threat/concern than interacting in any other way with them at all.
    We tried the raid thing a few times. In all cases when we got anywhere near the raid, we were fired upon and either sunk, or escaped and no longer pursued the raid.

    For us, we can't see any reason to even attempt a raid again, because not only is it surrounded by pvp players making even trying the raid a waste of time, but then if you even manage to complete one, it will end up being whoever gets killed last benefit.

    We aren't against pvp at all and really enjoyed it, but when it cripples the raid every single time, then something needs to be done to fix it.

    As far as ship attacks, maybe half the amount of gold gotten from a chest taken from another ship to reduce that incentive, and only allow quest completion for items not stolen from others? There has to be a incentive to encourage people to actually play pve instead of just logging on to pvp.

    Another concern is that we can't team up with other crews. We have a few friends interested in playing the game together, and it would be nice to be able to have an alliance so loot is shared between crews.

    It could be limited to maybe 2 or 3 crews in accord, and that would encourage small fleets making pvp players either have to also band together, or giving single pvp attackers less incentive to just pvp troll all the time.There could even be tougher/specific quests only for fleets. It might also be beneficial for crews in accord to have a chosen flag they could run, so from a distance you could see multiple ships were running together. (Maybe also a new player name color, like blue, yellow, or purple instead of green or white?)

    In essence, I think there should be less incentive to just pvp other players, whether its slower progress, bounties or whatever.

    Using Black Flag as a reference, if you were excessively aggressive, there was a bounty put on you, and npc ships sent after you. The same thing could be done with SOT... a bounty could be posted on outpost boards on overly aggressive pvp players, and other pvp players could go after them to get their pvp fix, reducing the chance of all pvp players coming after pve players. Bounty collectors could get special gear purchases, ship adornments, achievements, or something like that.

    Maybe the spy glass could be tweaked so you could see names of players on ships from a distance, and the compass could have additional functionality giving a 5 minute delayed last know position of bounty targets? (Or maybe a bounty compass could be purchased as an additional tool?) It shouldn't be real time, but should have some sort of delayed indication system to give you a clue of a target's whereabouts, but not their current exact position.

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