[Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2)

@daeganjukes said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

My crew was PC in the final beta. Though we didn't take the time to ask other crews what their platform was (save for that one guy that joined our crew when we were one short), some vessels were much easier to take on than others (regardless if sloop or galleon). I know my crew would support the option for the xbox platform to opt out of cross-play. Not because we don't enjoy boarding / sinking your ships because ... well we know its not fair. All that said, the easiest ships to sink had no man in the crows nest. Doesn't matter the gaming platform. Regardless of what most of the crew is doing, if no one is watching the ship, for attacking npc or player, its vulnerable and your chances for it sinking sky rocket.

This one of the most sensible answers I've seen on any cross-play/balance related topic, thanks matey.

@seedy-platypus said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

It is now less than a week until the release date, Rare are cutting it fine with these debates, we need an official response so we know what Rare plans to implement at release or in the future.

Up vote this post if you want a response from Rare. Also quote and tag Rare employees, lets put the pressure on for answers. We as consumers need to know the kind of product we have purchased or are considering purchasing.

howdo we tag rare employees? Id love this

@holyskin I had ignored this thread so never even saw your answers. Sad thing to see you call me an ignorant trying to invalidate anything I've said as you admit you didn't even get what I was saying. All I've spoke of comes from experience and facts my friend. Let me make my pov very clear for you since you're having trouble,

It is obvious that overall there is still an advantage towards PC but it isn't big when you consider the overall gameplay/design - that was the key point you seemed to miss. If you're trying to play like an overly aggressive pc player archetype then indeed you are bound to find some problems.

Another thing I said was that I am not against turning off cross-play. Just that given everything that has been told to us, it doesn't seem like a realistic expectation. Specially at launch. We'll see though.

And yes, controller is better to control movement. I don't have the time to see that particular video but have seen many of solo players using controller taking out a fort with 0 deaths. Did they miss 2 or 3 shots a good mouse user wouldn't miss? Yes. But did they show far superior movement control that gave them almost always a better positioning and ability to evade damage? Also yes.

There's nothing spectacular about my claims, the fact that you think that shows me you should be in fact using mouse and keyboard since you don't seem very good at it with the controller. Aim assist doesn't exist on rainbow six btw and even though I suggested having an aim assist when using controller to close the little gap there is. After many hours of play without it I probably wouldn't use it as it throws me off. I do recognize (as I did before, above) that without a kontrolfreek I would not be able to have such level of control where I can compete with a great mouse user (try Rainbow on high gold even and you might get an idea of what I mean). Those players are rare though and no matter how much you try to avoid the rest of the gameplay and game design, the fact stands that it does clearly help even things out. Or I wouldn't win almost every fight.

You might be right about sensitivity issues, wouldn't really know as I use a ds4 and a program that has it's own sensitivity sliders. That said i don't really see why this game would need a Cod style of sensitivity. Don't remember having any situation where I need to do more than 180 and those were already far. But AGAIN, to make it clear, I do not know how bad it might be.

In terms of controlling how you play I honestly don't get how you don't understand... Maybe because you are trying to be an aggressive twitchy gamer as if on pc? Anyway, tell me, do you play a shotgun and sniper the same way? Do you really have that little control or awareness that anything goes as the others decide for you? Find that hard to believe.

To conclude, this game isn't comparable in terms of shooting mechanics to a call of duty let alone a Rainbow Six, not even close. Slow ads, no hit-scan or crossairs, low damage weapons that are heavily dependent on aiming and no headshot bonus damage. And shooting is about 40% of combat and not the most important. That's why I'm saying the gap isn't big at all. I'd rather have the game fully balanced and not devise the community but if whatever requirements are needed are met than I wouldn't have much problem separating us. I do think (yes, if possible) that a division based on peripherals rather than platform makes more sense as there are many many pc players that say this game is a much better experience overall with a controller. Which goes to show you how much the mouse's advantage actually matter to the overall gameplay and I agree with them (obviously).

I'm going to ignore the fact you said some of my points were ridiculous and then use switching to a controller as a defense for why mouse and keyboard is better... Ironic

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin I had ignored this thread so never even saw your answers. Sad thing to see you call me an ignorant trying to invalidate anything I've said as you admit you didn't even get what I was saying. All I've spoke of comes from experience and facts my friend. Let me make my pov very clear for you since you're having trouble,

I have only invalidated your attempt at justifying how a controller is better than a keyboard and mouse, refer back to the post previously. eg. you stating that is a controller user can pick when/where to fight he can have an advantage... You my friend, ARE being ignorant when you justify that a controller as being equal to a KBM setup.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin It is obvious that overall there is still an advantage towards PC but it isn't big when you consider the overall gameplay/design - that was the key point you seemed to miss. If you're trying to play like an overly aggressive pc player archetype then indeed you are bound to find some problems.

Now you agree that there is an advantage, this has been my claim the whole time. Additionally i did not miss nay key point, the control advantage is AMPLIFIED in favour of the KBM input BECAUSE of the game design, the fact that its slower to 'balance' things out just adds more of a handicap against the controller user (aim speed, precision, hip sensitivity etc).

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin Another thing I said was that I am not against turning off cross-play. Just that given everything that has been told to us, it doesn't seem like a realistic expectation. Specially at launch. We'll see though.

I'm with you on this one good buddy, My hope is that it will happen though, butI feel it wont as alot of gamers seem to be complacent.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin And yes, controller is better to control movement. I don't have the time to see that particular video but have seen many of solo players using controller taking out a fort with 0 deaths. Did they miss 2 or 3 shots a good mouse user wouldn't miss? Yes. But did they show far superior movement control that gave them almost always a better positioning and ability to evade damage? Also yes.

Controllers are only better if you want to move slowly since they have pressure sensitivity, we discussed this before. I don't see how this could even be an advantage in this game anyway. I have taken out a fort with my crew on controllers, in the current BETA they were not too difficult for 4 of us, that said I know I personally could have done better on a pc, and since i HAVE played on both to compare i feel qualified to say that movement combined with strafing on keys and fast mouse movements out performs a controller easily, forts became a joke on pc, NOW i will agree that controllers feel way more comfortable but that does not equal superior movement, its casual and you dont fatigue with hand c***s, that is all. now i need you to PROVE to me how controller can (and i quote you here) "Yes. But did they show far superior movement control that gave them almost always a better positioning and ability to evade damage? Also yes." Please show me.. I posted 2 videos that show the exact opposite of what you're saying. On the PC when the layer took damage, its just a case of a quick flick of the wrist, 180o turn and a back step - done! On a controller you have a turn speed cap so there is a limit to how fast you can turn in the exact same scenario - in either case we are clutching at straws because my argument is about aimig not moving, either way; with a combination of both, a pc KBM player still holds the advantages, just watch the videos and honestly tell me your controller guy was more responsive, fast, manoeuvred better to negate damage.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin There's nothing spectacular about my claims, the fact that you think that shows me you should be in fact using mouse and keyboard since you don't seem very good at it with the controller. Aim assist doesn't exist on rainbow six btw and even though I suggested having an aim assist when using controller to close the little gap there is. After many hours of play without it I probably wouldn't use it as it throws me off. I do recognise (as I did before, above) that without a kontrolfreek I would not be able to have such level of control where I can compete with a great mouse user (try Rainbow on high gold even and you might get an idea of what I mean). Those players are rare though and no matter how much you try to avoid the rest of the gameplay and game design, the fact stands that it does clearly help even things out. Or I wouldn't win almost every fight.

I broadly claimed that all shooters have aim assist, granted R6 does not, at least in the multipayer. The fact that "aim assist" exists and is an almost 100% industry standard thing in shooting games tells you why its needed on a controller - because it's inferior. I am terrible on a controller, I can hold my own, but when i do die to gun fight I look back and know I could have handled it better on a mouse, yes part of that is subjective because what works for me doesn't work for others. What I'm saying is (and... regardless of the game) if you get 4 guys at the top of their game onpc to vs 4 guys at the top of their game on xbox, and im talking the very very few top % of world ranking players - the pc guys come out on top.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin You might be right about sensitivity issues, wouldn't really know as I use a ds4 and a program that has it's own sensitivity sliders. That said i don't really see why this game would need a Cod style of sensitivity. Don't remember having any situation where I need to do more than 180 and those were already far. But AGAIN, to make it clear, I do not know how bad it might be.

I agree with you completely, this game doesn't need a COD style sensitivity but pc users damn near have it, thats what I'm saying (again watch that video i sent and you will see what i mean). It's bad good buddy. The only saving grace is that right now sword play has a weird-a*s lock on effect so it does stop pc guys from strafing around you and doing a fast 180 turn to hit you in the back, BUT thats happened in a close range gun fight. Ive gone in with a swing only to have the enemy jump to the side, spin a quick 180 and shoot me before my damn controller would let me turn to face them because of the speed capon a controller. (this is a twitchy style piece of game play that cant be countered on a controller - agreed, however, its situational at best, but it happens.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin In terms of controlling how you play I honestly don't get how you don't understand... Maybe because you are trying to be an aggressive twitchy gamer as if on pc? Anyway, tell me, do you play a shotgun and sniper the same way?

Show me some tactics of how a controller user can manoeuvre to outplay a kbm user, infact if it works vs them it'll work vs controller users even better, what magic tactic have you discovered?

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin To conclude, this game isn't comparable in terms of shooting mechanics to a call of duty let alone a Rainbow Six, not even close. Slow ads, no hit-scan or crossairs, low damage weapons that are heavily dependent on aiming and no headshot bonus damage. And shooting is about 40% of combat and not the most important. That's why I'm saying the gap isn't big at all.

I'm not suggesting the mechanics are alike. what IS alike is the mouse hip speed (and i assume you don't know - but hip speed accurate is near 100% accurate, it needs a nerf). The devs did slow down sniping ads but as mentioned before this is easiy overcome with a mouse with a DPI setting slider (i use a logitec G02n12,000 DPI as an example). The physics of shots, whether there is ballistics drops, head shot multiplyers, hit scan, ot tag sounds is irrelevant to what im trying to explain. The gap is HUGE when comparing the hard coded speedcap of a controller vs an agile and dexterous aiming device like a mouse. Yes, the devs have tried to even this out by wing down ADS in sniping and people have complained about that. but their attempt to close that gap actually widens it because the mouse is still very fast in comparison to the slowed down controller speeds, player movement speeds, slow reoads etc, .

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin I'd rather have the game fully balanced and not devise the community but if whatever requirements are needed are met than I wouldn't have much problem separating us. I do think (yes, if possible) that a division based on peripherals rather than platform makes more sense as there are many many pc players that say this game is a much better experience overall with a controller. Which goes to show you how much the mouse's advantage actually matter to the overall gameplay and I agree with them (obviously).

Again i agree with you here 100% regarding the fairness of peripheral usage, controller is defiantly a more 'relaxed'experience, its comfortable, a controller is more ergonomic in your had than deforming your left hand over an arrangement of keys lol. ALl that aside though, the mouses advantage is by far a game changer in terms of fairness, other pc gamers have simply said its funny or unfair, even they agree.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin I'm going to ignore the fact you said some of my points were ridiculous and then use switching to a controller as a defence for why mouse and keyboard is better... Ironic

I'm sorry that you feel that way, the point here is that a pc user can use BOTH control options on the fly. If said pc user feels that shootings cannons is easier o the controller then he/she switches... uh-oh , your boats getting boarded? go back to KBM and have fun shooting slow fat targets with near no skill involved. I was only exemplifying how the pc user still has the advantage.

No hard feelings,nthin' but love!

@holyskin I'm not gonna read all that when you start by calling me an ignorant again while saying i said they're equal. I honestly believe you have a reading problem.
Last sentence is pretty funny though! Have fun.

Or don't, I guess

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin I'm not gonna read all that when you start by calling me an ignorant again while saying i said they're equal. I honestly believe you have a reading problem.
Last sentence is pretty funny though! Have fun.

Or don't, I guess

Good buddy, don't be such a (Mod Edited) about it. You, by nature are not an ignorant person so do not be offended, please. Some of your comments have been ignorant in nature (that doesn't define you as ignorant). Some of you're reasoning has been less than air right so I'm simply refuting you.
See you on the high seas, yaaaaaaarr!

@holyskin Snowflake now l***o. That's actually ironic for me. Regardless, that's not refuting mate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Specially when you're saying I'm defending something I'm not. The ones you do get what I'm saying (even if you don't get the point I'm making with them) you have no argument other than "NO" or "It's wrong!". There's literally no point in this.

@return-if-found how do you know their skill is even comparable? And AGAIN, I always said mouse has an advantage in terms of aiming. Thankfully that's not what the game is about. There's other videos as well, like using a controller in diamond ranked on R6S on pc (tried to find the one I saw but can't remember the guys name). There it really is the highest skill possible in a game of the kind (which this one isn't) and he keeps up well. I'm simply not gonna spend more time on this arguing points that aren't mine.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin Snowflake now l***o. That's actually ironic for me. Regardless, that's not refuting mate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Ok Mr google PhD

@holyskin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin Snowflake now l***o. That's actually ironic for me. Regardless, that's not refuting mate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Ok Mr google PhD

Exactly. You want to be right so bad that you don't get what you're fighting. Thanks for proving it again.

@return-if-found Yes, we are. I don't disagree with your measures even if I did suggest an alternative. Just part of your statements and I thought we already understood each others points before, I'm not saying anything different so we can just agree to disagree on those.

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@deashkiin said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

@holyskin Snowflake now l***o. That's actually ironic for me. Regardless, that's not refuting mate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Ok Mr google PhD

Exactly. You want to be right so bad that you don't get what you're fighting. Thanks for proving it again.

Are you away with the f*****s? Seriously, I have articulated my argument and put my points across fairly well. I don’t get what I’m fighting?

For context I submitted the original post which your criticised my argument of kbm being better and asking for kbm functionality OR an opt out. You proceeded to defend controllers and down play kbm. During this debate you have been progressively agreeing with some of my points (for reference I am ONLY interested in the aiming side of things since this most heavily shifts the balance in pvp encounters) it would appear that you do not know what you’re fighting.

@ybz4 said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

I specifically bought (pre-ordered) the game to play with my friends who have the console and are far away from me. I don't have the space or resources to add a console to my equipment. This feature is super important to me.

To address the thoughts about balance, I think we first need to see how the game plays out in the real world and how much of the game play is unfair. (I didn't participate in the beta, so maybe this is already known by others who did...)

That being said, the main issue seems to be with aiming precision with a mouse vs. a controller. Perhaps this issue can be met with an update that adds a slight auto-aim support for console players? I know it will have to be fine-tuned to placate to everyone's complaints so it's not too much in favor of the console players.

From what I see the players who really want the separation are more serious gamers. Perhaps another option could be separating the servers into players that want a casual atmosphere and those who want to be placed into a more competitive one?

Or perhaps a subtle ranking system that is invisible to the users that would eventually separate parties based on skill? If certain pc players tend to be dominating too much, or certain console players are unable to have fun because of the difference, moving them to a server more on par with their play results would make the real experience better. I know the game isn't about "ranking up" in the traditional gaming sense, which is why I think it should be a background process not openly visible to the gamers.

What do you all think about that?
This +1

@shady-ox said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

Crossplay is such an turn off for me. Hope there will be an option to disable crossplay in the future on xbox. Have a great lauch an enjoy the game with out me :/

Sorry to hear it. I’m only campaigning and creating awareness so that people like you stay #RAREaware

@herbalphoenix23 said in [Mega Thread] - Play Anywhere, Cross Play and Balancing. (Part 2):

I don't want to see PC players crippled because the hardware on a console is obsolete and can't handle the full potential of any open world video game. The new consoles won't even last as long as this game, in 4 years when their hardware is even more obsolete a new console will be rolled out and no one will care about the old one anymore. On the other hand PC gamers are in it for the long haul since we can update our hardware as time goes on. Please don't kill the game by catering to the console p***s.

You lack clarity, go read the OP and come back and say something in context, p**b 😂

I own a Desktop PC, a gaming laptop and three Xbox Ones (Original, S and X) in various locations. I love Play anywhere games and the crossplay feature, as I can play with my friends that only have either Xbox Ones or PCs anywhere I want, be it on the PC or any of my Xboxes. It is a great feature to bring the community together.
The play Anywhere and Crossplay features are the main reason (besides UHD BluRay Support on the S and X as well as the X being as powerful enough to rival a halfway decent PC) I opted for Xbox consoles over PS4 and I wouldn't want them to go away. It's the most important selling point for the Microsoft Xbox gaming ecosystem to me.

I do understand people that would like to be able to opt-out of crossplay and I like having options, although I see it as a double-edged sword, as it would split the players in the game from each other, which I don't view as a good thing.
Besides, would you then also allow PC players that play exclusively with Gamepads to opt out playing with Keyboard/Mouse players? What about c****y keyboard/mice vs. gaming keyboard/mice with higher DPI, etc.? How about Xbox players with c****y gamepads vs. configurable Elite Controllers or custom controllers that allow them to aim better and play more efficiently? It's a can of worms better left unopened.

I myself have been alternating between Keyboard and Mouse and Gamepad during beta and didn't really have any problems with either one of them. Then again, I'm used to playing with both. If you are good at aiming with a controller, it shouldn't be a big issue, although aiming with a mouse still feels more natural to me, so I slightly prefer that in combat, but for other things like ship stations, the controller works way better (I feel the controller vibration when centering the wheel at the helm gives a big advantage over keyboard/mouse, for example and using other ship stations works way smoother with the gamepad, too).
Using a HOTAS was quite bit harder than either Mouse/Keyboard or Gamepad, but that's to be expected (one of my friends plays games exclusively with a joystick because he only has one functional hand, so I tested if I could get it to work with my HOTAS which I did).
I did also try to use a steering wheel when at the helm of a ship, which was great immersive fun as well. Naturally, for other things than steering the ship it isn't quite ideal, however. Well, angling sails works okay with it, too.

That said, I would love to see full native USB keyboard/mouse support (keep in mind that if you don't like cables, you can use wireless ones with USB transmitters as well, even smaller ones if full sizesd ones aren't your thing on the couch) added for the Xbox One version as well as support for other input devices like Joysticks and steering wheels to bring it up to par with the PC options so players can choose which input method to use (heck, why not also add a Kinect option? That might be fun!).

On a side note, Text Chat that's available on the PC version needs to be added to the Xbox One version for USB keyboards as well as the Xbox One Chatpad, too, as I feel good communication is more important in this game than any input device and many players simply don't have access to voice chat or can't always play with sound enabled and the pirate chat wheel, while an interesting idea, is way too limited to be a good substitute.

is the one shoting capabilities of the blunderbus too op? and should the sniper rifle be made more powerful?

Please can we stay in context on this thread?

I’m also proactively wanting a crossplay toggle. I am the OP for this thread. I have seen some YouTube footage of hacks too and last night my crew was victim to it (I believe) soot goes like this

My ship went broadside along with another ship ready to fight. We both did not have optimal range for cannons to be accurate so we kept cruising closer. Then I die in 1 shot from 100%. at the wheel of my ship, within seconds the rest of my crew dies in a similar manner BUT get this, one of them was on the lower deck, not in line of sight for a sniper, we were all at full health naturally from a fresh spawn moments before. We were all sniped... and moments later, the 4 of us were staring at each other on the boat of the damned (we died within seconds of each other). No explaining that. Even the PC m*********e couldn’t pull shots like that. My buddy has it captured on his Xbox, so we’re trying to report it.

Besides this we have encountered a few PC crews and we seem to fare far worse vs them, they are running circles around us and its ignorant the devs are ignoring this. Crossplay is ALWAYS a bad idea where shooting mechanics are involved. Either create a crossplay toggle or add keyboard and mouse support to balance things out