[Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service (Part 1)
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@shadowstrider-7 I personally don't care about it either, but a lot of people do, because they'll see someone with a cat doing funny stuff, and they'll be like "i want that too". Sense of belonging, i guess.
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@darlain said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
@shadowstrider-7 I personally don't care about it either, but a lot of people do, because they'll see someone with a cat doing funny stuff, and they'll be like "i want that too". Sense of belonging, i guess.
Agreed. That's also the point of MTs, though, is it not? They should be enticing.
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@shadowstrider-7 MT's exists for the sole purpose of making even more money, with little to no effort from Rare's part.
It's really easy to separate cool things from the game, tag them as microtransactions, and call it a day.
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Since Rare has been radically transparent about much of the development process of SoT, I'd really like to know more about where the revenue from microtransactions will be going.
Do most microtransaction purchases just end up as a supplementary revenue stream, or is that revenue (on average) reinvested into the development of updates/content for users. As far as I can tell, all we have is the rocketing stock prices of big publishers, which makes me really doubt the narrative that "microtransactions are needed for post-launch continual development."
I think some of my biggest issues with microtransactions could be tapered a bit if Rare gave us periodic updates about how much money they've made on microtransactions and how much of that capital is then reinvested back into post-launch support.
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@williamherschel Would it matter if the profits went straight into their pockets? Considering the MTs are optional, does that make a difference?
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It matters to me as a consumer, and someone who has preordered this game. Further, if I knew that a portion (specifically how much) of each microtransaction purchase was being reinvested into post-launch development I would probably be more likely to make more microtransactions.
In my opinion, the rhetoric that microtransactions are "just cosmetic" is not good enough. There is software/games built entirely around roleplaying by customizing your character (VR Chat is probably the best example right now, but there are obviously a ton of other examples). So even if we are being totally reductionist about what constitutes a "game mechanic" I'm fairly certain that being able to customize your character is in fact a game mechanic.
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@williamherschel I guess that's where we differ. If they release something 'premium' and I like it, I'll buy it as long as it's not outrageously priced. And as long as the game receives constant support and updates, I don't care if they're personally receiving profits or if it's reinvested. At the end of the day, I still have access to the full game and I still find it fun.
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I don't much care if there are micro transactions for cosmetics.
What I care about is what will happen if these cosmetics don't "sell well enough"?
Will increasingly more cosmetics end up behind a paywall until the only way to get new customization is by paying for it?
Because if so that is a MAJOR slap in the face to the people who've supported this game throughout the development process and might well sink the whole ship.This may seem like I'm just panicking at the mention of micro transactions but considering the gaming industries continuous failure to make them a positive thing, I don't think anyone can rightly blame me.
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I have the expectation that some (if not most) of the revenue earned from microtransactions will become profit that doesn't necessarily translate to post-launch development.
My larger point, is given the transparency that Rare has given us thus far, it would simply be nice if they made some of the data regarding profits/reinvestment available, or perhaps upfront let us know that x% of every microtransaction purchase will go towards post-launch support. Obviously this isn't something that is legally binding by any means, nor would we truly have any oversight to guarantee that these figures are accurate, but I think it could actually work out well for them from a marketing perspective and differentiate themselves from the way that other microtransactions are handled.
Specifically I'm thinking of "disruptive" companies (e.g. companies like Everlane) that have decided that transparency is actually good for business.
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@dhg-ixxrmacxxi said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
As a reminder, the Pirate Code is more than just guidelines, but the rules of the community and game that we expect all members to abide by when participating on the forums.
Love the use of this reference
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I think we are likely going to have to agree to disagree on this, but it's on you as a consumer if you don't demand that sort of transparency. Again, most companies won't comply, but there is no harm in asking for that transparency, especially since Rare has already given us pretty unprecedented "under the hood" access to the development process.
The bigger picture is that consumers are now largely "okay" with buying non material (digital commodities) with credit, built on a labor force that largely doesn't receive the gains from this revenue stream, with very little accountability/transparency to where any of that money/credit goes.
Again, I still haven't seen compelling evidence about where most capital earned by microtransactions goes. At least not enough to warrant the axiom that microtransactions are a necessary and good for modern game development.
Free-to-play microtransactions make up 80% of app store revenue (https://venturebeat.com/2014/02/21/...actions-make-up-79-of-u-s-app-store-revenues/) Do you really think the revenue from the mobile platform is being used invested back into creating "better services" for the consumer? Obviously the economics of F2P titles on mobile are significantly different than the economics of "AAA" 1st party titles. However, if you look at publishers like EA who made 1.68 billion in microtransactions in FY2017 coupled with with stock prices that have risen exponentially since the advent of the modern microtransaction, is it really fair to say that these big corporations would be hemorrhaging cash if it weren't for this added revenue stream? Again it seems far more likely that they will continue to exploit this revenue stream for increasing corporate gains so long as people are "okay with cosmetic microtransactions."
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I have purchased games with microtransactions and have also purchased cosmetic microtransactions. That's not really the issue here, I'm merely advocating for some level of transparency (regarding this revenue stream) especially given that it is such a hot-button issue right now in gaming.
I'd also argue that there is a weird shareholder mentality that the gaming community (in general) has about most things. There's no harm in advocating positions that could potentially benefit us as consumers of SoT. Obviously as early supporters of SoT, we want to see the game do well, but it's still important to provide constructive feedback especially regarding the topic of Microtransactions.
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Please take into account that this game is also part of the Gamepass gimmick, which is aside from being a Netflix esque service some retailers have been doing for sometime already but only in a digital format, harming their income by doing so but at the same time support the game in long term...
Its a way to allow players on console to play games without giving it fully away, due to its tied to a monthly service, as free games hurts the gaming market as a whole, this lets the game have a light income regardless in how many pays for the full game of any of the many cosmetics, and thus continue to be supported longer than average expectations, just look at Destiny with its 10 year plan, only lasted a year before a massive overhaul was hit that only extended that span by another year was made...
With that salt crystal safely mined ill get on with what I think about paid cosmetics: I do not think pets should be paywalled, which is what most conversations in the forums and media about this subject sounds like, I like that its no form of shady RNG but I don't want anyone to be enforced to experience the game knowing they paid real money on a simian that look like Jack Sparrow (Barbossas pet chimp).
I know that some quests will award the "Paid" currency to allow us to just buy one over time but I don't think its right to lock away a specific type of cosmetic to a paywall, when it could just be a bunch of cool cosmetics in general, such as crossover clothing, ship decorations or other items that you can use, like weapons or tools that fit a current ongoing event.
I can respect paid cosmetics that reference previous games Rare has made, as its not something that's generic like parrots, monkeys or other common pets, there could be a chimp wearing a cap with Rares logo on it for instance (nod their creation Diddy for when they worked with the DKC trilogy), you could have Spinals shield hanging as your sign that holds the name of you ship, stuff that reference previous works Rare has made as all types of cosmetics should be fine as they have full obligation in what among their properties they want to use for what, tough the Diddy impersonator i mentioned is the closest thing they can do without violating any claimed properties.
Event cosmetics of any kind should be both obtainable by playing the game and by paying, you can have alternate color variants of said items for instance, a set of 3 from gold purchase, and another set of 3 with whatever the "Paid" currency is, don't want to copy Destiny 2 with its event controversy...
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@ant-heuser-kush Im aware of that and I welcome that, it'll keep the game alive longer, something I want it to do, it has too much potential, I just don't want it to barely reach its expected lifespan and end up completely forgotten by both devs and fans alike...
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@foxtheginger said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
@dhg-ixxrmacxxi said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
As a reminder, the Pirate Code is more than just guidelines, but the rules of the community and game that we expect all members to abide by when participating on the forums.
Love the use of this reference
I stole it from @KattTruewalker so she deserves all the credit here!
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@ancienttheron Might you be able to link me to the article discussing the ability to earn 'premium currency'? It appears I have missed that information. Thanks in advance!
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@shadowstrider-7 said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
@ancienttheron Might you be able to link me to the article discussing the ability to earn 'premium currency'? It appears I have missed that information. Thanks in advance!
Yeh I’ve not seen that either, but heard it mentioned on the forums. So wouldn’t mind seeing it too.
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@dhg-ixxrmacxxi Well, I can see why they do that. I do hope there is an option to use in-game currency to buy them.
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@scheefinator said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
Dude, who is trying to say Gamepass is bad? That sounds like one of the best ideas lately from MS. Getting people to try out your games and subtley push them towards new ones for the price of a pizza a month?
Come on man, ya'll need to quit being so difficult all the time.
$10 a month for the full experience or you can pay the $60 and own it.
Don't you like options?
I have to agree here. I very rarely purchase a game at full price anymore. I cannot count the times over the past couple of years where a game purchase lasted about one week of enjoyment then it was just...boring, or not what I expected. Game pass fixes that issue.
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I personally couldn't be happier with how they approached it. You can't buy any items from in-game like let's say a "kraken outfit" that people would otherwise have to work for. It's all "premium" stuff, all cosmetic. None of it has to be bought to progress or play the game and that's awesome when you combine it with the fact that they're releasing all DLC and future content for free.
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@ant-heuser-kush said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
@saracens-lament said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
@ant-heuser-kush cheers, I’ll go have a wee look😊
The thread is locked, but it's posted near the end of the replies.
Thanks! It was an IGN article. Here come the dreaded 'Dubloon' currency packs 😢👎
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Great product disscusion so far guys. But there seem to be 1 issue that seems to be devicive as it's missunderstood. Let me try to clarify this issue and bridge this gap. The argument over premium content/paid content bieng ethier exclusive owners or earned ingame.
For those who belive you should be able to earn paid content ingame. To simplify you want to paid content tied to the grind/progession. One thing you have to understand is the grind does'nt make the company money infact it cost them money. Every sec you play is a cost to developer as they spend energy and resoures on servers. The Grind is simply an incentive for a player to keep playing and ads no value to no-one else except that player who enjoys the grind. So the question is how do you add value to the Grind? How should the grind be monitized? This question is what gave us the Lootboxs and Pay-to-Win delema. Companies exist to make money and they will experiment on solutions to these questions. We as gamers must help companies answer this question so we can have a symbotic relationship and not a preditory one. So think carefully what your asking for. Asking to make paid items to be obtianable in game is asking for Pay-to-win unless you offer an alternative solution.
Now the on other hand. Those who want a paid content Exclusive are effectively saying we want a wall between those who can afford it and those who can't. Gamers don't like walls. They will climb mountians and diging valleys ON THE GRIND, Mining for gold just so they can feel inculded. The question here is how can pay for content that doesn't exclude other players from sharing in the experiance? How can we build bridges and not Pay Walls? So far Rare has proposed a unique answer to this question by having communal paid content. Now wheather this is for nerfarious reasons or not. This in it's essance a very positive and mutally benifical solution. One that needs to be understood and explored by us gamers to test its limits. Let's be proactive on this a prevent another montization feasco.
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I like what they said about the certain kinds of things that might be microtransactions like pets and aging potions. However I think it should stay the kind of things i cant earn through progression. Clothing and weapon skins are what we progress in the game to get and I think being able to buy those kinds of things outright would sully that vision. However I am entirely in favor of microtransactions if they remain within that range of things that aren't clothing and weapons and stuff. I could see myself spending a good amount of money on pets, seeing how interactable and fun they sound. I just hope they're at 10-12 bucks a pop max.
Also just a note for Rare making the pets even more worth the money: Look to Sonic Adventure 2's Chao system. You're clearly already on the right track with the ability to pick up the pets and abuse them by shooting them out of cannons (not unlike throwing a Chao at a wall). Think of the pets as an actual animal with emotions that could be affected by things you do to them (in this game definitely not permanently, as everyone else can mess with your pet). Say if you pet your monkey he'll become happier and fond of the person who pet him and follow him around on the ship. Maybe if somebody shoots the monkey out of a cannon, the monkey will be afraid of that person when he comes back and try to run away from them when they try to pick him up and uncomfortably shake in fear in their arms when they actually catch him. Maybe petting the shaking monkey in your arms will calm him down eventually and things will be better between you both. Maybe that trust can be betrayed again as you shoot him out of the cannon again. You guys talked about emotional value of the things that should be in the premium shop, but i think these things should have emotions in and of themselves. As anyone would know, Sonic Adventure 2 was a terrible, buggy game with annoying unfun missions. However, people still played the hell out of it for the Chao's because they were so damn fun. Now think of what something like that could do to an actually decent game. Its up to you guys to bring in the cash and I know if you follow these principles it will happen.
Edit: 10 bucks is too much, probably 5 bucks would be better. The sheer demand would more than make up for the effort and resources. If it were more I would probably only buy one every few months.
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@ant-heuser-kush I agree, 10 bucks is too much, I was going to say it takes a lot more work to make highly interactable pets like this than in other games, which it probably does, but honestly the cooler it is the sheer amount of demand there is for them will more than make up for the expense of making it.
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Charge whatever you want for whatever items you want. I'm sure it will be within reason and someone will be glad to buy it.I would just like a way to earn these items in game without paying. Even if the requirements to achoeve them are excessive. I dont like items that are ONLY available to those who pay. If that's not in the cards then at the very least the "coolest" items should be acquired thru playing the game. Otherwise you make the rest of us feel like you are forcing us to buy items. As far as DLC and games as a service. I would rather have a game that grew organically and didn't partition players who have a DLC pack away from those who don't.also Halo had a good model at one time where DLC was paid but after a set amount of time was given free to the community.
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@ant-heuser-kush The balance is that the items available for purchase are also available thru play. Either later , like say a few months later there is a quest to acquire some of that stuff. Or it's available at the same time but with a lengthy investment of time from the player . Having said that there are always some items which should never be available to buy. As I said the coolest top tier gear available thru playing the game should never be available for purchase. At least not until there is a new top tier.
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@ant-heuser-kush That's kinda my point. Why not both? A long involved quest or series of quests that takes the player the entire event to finish. Or pay 2.99 or whatever the price is. It shouldn't be easy to get thru play. Rare likes money just like everyone else. But you stop the community from feeling like they are being forced to buy.
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@ant-heuser-kush You should definitely be able to buy cool stuff. But I should also be able to earn it. Even if it earning it takes a very long time.
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@therealcaptain3 said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
I wish I could @everyone but sadly I cannot... This whole discussion about MTs is beyond stupid. The only MTs I want for this game is those of the store such as a SoT tankard. Actual in real life uses for items you purchase not some silly digital stuff.
While i would love to see a real live tavern store or just a digital that sell actual merchindise which is definitly will exist soon at some point. The fact you fail to see here is that MTX can of worms already opened and you have to accepted the fact it's not going away for better or worst. But to say that disscusing how we should go about dealing with it so we can benifit the most is beyond stupid. Then your etheir in denial or your ingnorant/nieve person. please try to understand just how important this tread is at it not just effects this game but every game to come after. So please try to be a bit more open minded and not be dismisive of people concerns.
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@scheefinator said in [Mega Thread] - Microtransactions, DLC, and Games as a Service:
Also there seems to be misinformation being thrown around.
We need to clear this up right now.
The MTX do not give advantage based on Power, Progression, or Rank. You can not buy your way to the top.
They will be items that have a social aspect to them.
This may take a while for most people to catch on as it only exist as a concept. Please continue to repeat this message and with more detail and examples also remian paitent as like anything new a unique it is scary to most people and they are prone to lash out. But good work i just wanted to offer some advice for you moving forward.