When does pirating become griefing?

  • Disclaimer: I like the PvP element in the game, and am in no way suggesting it be removed. Also brace yourself, because it's story time.

    I was eager to get back on the seas yesterday, and booted up the game as soon as I got home. Checked around a bit for whats new, got my treasure map, and set sail. (Side note, I was only able to sail solo. None of the multi-crew options worked. Bronzebeard)
    The first chest was no problem, I did spot a small, 2 crew vessel (Baby ship) and a Galleon, but they were at a distance, so I wasn't worried. It was only when I got my 2nd map that our story starts.

    The galleon was at the same island as my treasure. Foolishly I was hoping for friendly pirates (IKR, what an idiot) and they opened fire on my ship. But here's the thing, I didn't care. There was no treasure on my ship, I had no reason to want to protect it. I jumped off and engaged in a sniper battle with the galleon until I was able to respawn my ship. Then I just went back to the island. This was not fun for me. The sniper battle was a bit. However, it later dawned upon me that the other crew only attacked me for the lulz. I had no gold for them to take. They didn't know that, but they also didn't check for any chest at the wreckage.

    Respawn on my new ship, ready to finally go get my 2nd chest of the night. I get back to the 2nd island and meet Baby ship. Again thinking these pirates have something better to do than risk taking on another pirate. (When will I learn) They opened fire on sight. New plan, I'll just wait out the barrage. They were aiming high anyway, so I figure they would run out of balls before sinking me. Eventually both of them board me, and both are killed by me. I take this time to make my escape, without the treasure I should add. But they respawned in time to be in hot-pursuit of my perfect pirate booty.
    -Tangent time: W*F is with that respawn time? They can both respawn and set sail in the time it takes me to raise anchor?-
    Well their high shots were playing the long game, and sunk me at sea. But they didn't stop to check for treasure, or even to finish me off. Just kept sailing.

    I wasn't having fun. I climb aboard my 3rd, and final, this is ending soon I swear, ship and set sail, again, for my 2nd treasure. Surprise! I cross paths with baby ship, going the opposite direction, so I hope they would just ignore me and go sell their treasure. But no. They chase me for, I kid you not, 20 minutes. I was able to shake them when I lead them to the galleon I spotted at an island. The galleon started shooting, but that makes sense, I was approaching at ramming speed. But I just lap the island, baby ship starts chasing the galleon, and I can finally dig up my 2nd chest, sell it for 30g, and log off.

    Sorry for the rant, hope you had fun laughing at me. I have fun telling this story, but the same kind of fun you get telling a fail story. Only fun afterwards.

    So here is my question to you the audience: Were these guys being pirates, or just jerks?

    I can already predict that some of you will say, just sail around them, or go get another map. All good solutions, but that's not the point I want to make.
    I would like to mention @SpookyToymaker for their post here relating players camping outpost, something I have experienced in past plays. Does this make the game more fun for everyone? or make the more traditional pirates more likely to stop playing? Leaving the game to just the island campers, who also quit because nobody is selling chest anymore (because they're all camping).

    TL:DR Some pirates were picking on me ='(

    edit: I think I should also add that I did not have this much of an issue in the tech-alpha. So maybe once some of the newer players get it out of their system, things will settle down.

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  • Lol I was on the galleon you were sailing for. At least I think I was. We saw a similar situation taking place last night. Small sloop at full driving force towards an island, and then towards us with a galleon up their butt. We thought it was a team coming at us. We fired and broke away. If that fits your story, then it was definitely us.

  • @ctl-x-alt-x-del I have a feeling this could turn out like the Dark Zone in The Division, some players just griefing others. You can say that it's all part of the game and you can avoid it, however like TD I think it'll end up frustrating a lot of players and end up turning them away quickly

  • @face-0-o Haha!
    Maybe, there was only 1 galleon for me, the one I was heading towards. I was being chased by baby ship.

  • I think being a pirate is all about griefing.
    That's just it this is just another game focused at the PVP audience and it is nothing more then that. Imagine The Division with just the Dark Zone that is this game. And that is ok that is the game the Rare was hoping for, its just not the game I was hoping for and many others I can tell from the posts in the Alpha and now in the Beta. For a PVP experience I think they have done a fairly good job at it.

  • @zero-daye I don't think this is what Rare are intending at all. If it is, then I'll be sorely disappointed.

    Cast your mind back to the summer last year where they posted this?

  • @marsara1 said in When does pirating become griefing?:

    @ctl-x-alt-x-del I have a feeling this could turn out like the Dark Zone in The Division, some players just griefing others. You can say that it's all part of the game and you can avoid it, however like TD I think it'll end up frustrating a lot of players and end up turning them away quickly

    Was thinking the same thing. Except you can leave the DZ.

  • @ctl-x-alt-x-del Yeah, I came in here this morning to see if anyone else was having that problem. Saw something similar last night . . .

    Was playing with two buddies for a couple of hours, no problem. Picked up maybe 6 or 7 chests, didn’t run into a soul. Then a fourth friend joined in and we started our first multi-chapter quest which (frustratingly) ended at the last chest, when we all got disconnected and lost everything . . . chests, maps, and quest (gonna ask about that in another thread).

    So we reconnected into a new instance and that’s when everything changed . . . for the next two hours we repeatedly ran into the same two ship crews, who, for the bulk of the time did nothing but attack us and each other. We couldn’t even get close enough to try to anchor at our target island without at least one of them sailing in, guns blazing. Nobody had chests to steal, it was just all about sinking any ship in sight.

    Finally, after a final battle that left all three ships sunk, one of the teams appeared to have left and we were finally able to pick up our last chest and sail to a more remote outpost to sell it, before the other team could come after us.

    So, after 2+ hours of playing, our fourth friend finally got his first chest. I’m a little concerned that this is not the kind of experience that is going to encourage people to stick with the game.

  • @ctl-x-alt-x-del said in When does pirating become griefing?:

    So here is my question to you the audience: Were these guys being pirates, or just jerks?

    I think they were just being pirates. My ship encounter rate yesterday was pretty inconsistent so pretty much any ship in my viewing distance received a visit. And since all of these ships look pretty much identical it leads to me to attacking the same ships over and over sometimes. I do anticipate this type of stuff increasing as the week goes on and motivation for gold decreases.

  • Oh yeah, and earlier, when I was playing solo, some guys killed me completely un provoked (and with no treasure chest) at an outpost and, as I was spawning back in on my ship, I could hear in the proximity chat one of them saying, “sail this guys ship over to our ship so we can sink it, because that would be funny”. Obviously, I kept playing, but that will get old fast.

  • Hi guys, first post.

    In my opinion the reason why people tend to attack on sight is because there aren't very many people on each server. We have been sailing around in a full 4 person crew and we tend to attack any ship we see mostly just because we want something to shoot at. Besides outposts there really isn't much that you get to engage your ship with, so when we do see someone we get really excited to have an actual naval battle. I could see this being very annoying with a small ship/crew sense its easy to be over powered. Once the full game releases and there are more penalties to losing ships, death, ect.. I think people will hopefully have a different mind set.

  • @katttruewalker said in When does pirating become griefing?:

    @zero-daye I don't think this is what Rare are intending at all. If it is, then I'll be sorely disappointed.

    I agree that it is not what they intended but they definitely have not been aggressive in discouraging it. I think it was the gamescom conference during the unveiling of the sloop during the Q&A that someone mentioned that they love griefing and the response was pretty much that it was ok. My googling skills are failing me now so I will have to look more for it at lunch.

  • @ctl-x-alt-x-del Great story, sorry you had a bad first day, but to be honest, that just sounds like part of the pirating adventure, being chased by other pirates, and the fear of not knowing if you're going to survive or not. Playing alone is very difficult in this game, to say the least. I was able to get into 2 different groups of 3 decent others pirates in each and they were very nice, showed me the ropes and we wrecked quite a few ferry-of-the-damned-dwellers who attacked us. I'd highly recommend waiting, even though the multiplayer queuing takes quite a while sometimes, for a group of 4 on a large galleons as its so much easier and so much more fun (imo) with a group of peeps that know what the heck they are doing.

  • Also, remember that there is safety in numbers. I spent most of the day yesterday joining Random 4-man crews and had a blast meeting new people and the hilarity that followed. maybe try joining a bigger crew?

  • I don't think the git-gud-scrub culture is really cultivated in the game, and it's a beta and people want to try things out (particularly battles) so maybe they're going a bit overboard right now and that's all they're gonna do.
    The fighting is fun, don't get me wrong, but it's not so fun that it would make me ignore what the game seems to be most about which is exploration. How many days can you really log in just pumped to work on your swordplay when swordplay is just swing or block. The guns aren't what I'd call deadly accurate either. It's a little PvP flavor in an otherwise full adventure game, and I think the luster won't last long for those coming in in team deathmatch mode.

  • @dwead-p-woberts said in When does pirating become griefing?:

    @ctl-x-alt-x-del Great story, sorry you had a bad first day, but to be honest, that just sounds like part of the pirating adventure, being chased by other pirates, and the fear of not knowing if you're going to survive or not. Playing alone is very difficult in this game, to say the least. I was able to get into 2 different groups of 3 decent others pirates in each and they were very nice, showed me the ropes and we wrecked quite a few ferry-of-the-damned-dwellers who attacked us. I'd highly recommend waiting, even though the multiplayer queuing takes quite a while sometimes, for a group of 4 on a large galleons as its so much easier and so much more fun (imo) with a group of peeps that know what the heck they are doing.

    Glad you enjoyed it, but this wasn't my first. It probably more like my 6th. I consider myself a fairly competent solo player, but I do like 2 crew the best. I probably would of fought back, if I had any motivation to. Maybe that says a lot about the game. I can only be motivated to fight for me booty, and not self-pirate-preservation.

  • @ctl-x-alt-x-del Hey man sorry you were having a lousy time i also experienced something like this. I had a two man ship and i crossed paths with 4 man ship im like "Shyts these b*****s gonna b*****e to smithereens" and one of the captains was actually really cool (Shout out to Mcbenie) I didnt have a chest i had actually just sold it a min before they docked. anywho McBenie didnt know what was going on so i explained to her how maps works the chest the compass and in the mean time i was running from her crew before they killed me. some players are cool others are jerks. i wish there was some way to actually change that. I dont know if safe zones are the best route or maybe the ability to hide your chest elsewhere... and use that idk for example if you know the outpost is compromised. you have a shovel you can dig a hole just bury it elsewhere in the meantime and come back for it

  • Really, if they just added the white flag option to just be able to show that you're friendly or not, then that would at least allow for people to sail up and say hi. Of course, there's always the asshats that will want to use the white flag as a way to get up close and get the first shot off.

  • @dwead-p-woberts said in When does pirating become griefing?:

    Really, if they just added the white flag option to just be able to show that you're friendly or not, then that would at least allow for people to sail up and say hi. Of course, there's always the asshats that will want to use the white flag as a way to get up close and get the first shot off.

    Maybe in white-flag-mode, you can't fire until your ship takes damage. So you can't use it like a Trojan horse.

  • I am a solo sloopist and I attack every ship I see because A) I have no idea if they have loot and I won't trust anybody that says "I don't have treasure" until I search their ship (sloop or galleon)

    B) I want to fight and have a good time, bc I like the pvp and get killed as much as I kill

    C) I think of it as "finding treasure in the ocean and fighting off the guards" which is the same concept as digging a hole and fighting skeletons

    SO, I don't know if that's relevant but imo I think the only time pirates become jerks is when they spawncamp your mermaid for more than 10mins. It's bad enough respawning into the feeding pit of 3-4 sharks. I say 10mins because I will almost always swim towards the same ship I just tried to attack unless I really felt I had 0% chance. So 10mins is when I tend to give up on a 0%.

    EDIT: as far as a white flag option, I may or may not honor that.

    which I would like to shamelessly plug my plea to make mermaids invisible to other players

  • @katttruewalker Don't get me wrong I am disappointed. But this is a failure of me letting my hopes steer me away from the message that post sends. The words tell you I am exactly right "Create the most fun, welcoming, multiplayer experience ever" PVE isn't a true multiplayer experience PVP is. Create the most fun, you are responsible for the fun you have you create the stories not RARE you. I hope I am wrong but I don't think we are going to see more then we are seeing right now in the beta.

  • @ctl-x-alt-x-del

    I think because it's BETA and everything gained is pointless, some players have quickly shifted to (or always were) 'kill'm all' mentality.

    When the game goes live and gathering and cashing is the name of the game, those looking to grief won't gain nearly as much as the treasure hunters do.

    Dash and grab PvP. Sometimes you cash and other times you die.
    You're either OK playing a game like that, or you aren't.

  • @zero-daye It's about balance, isn't it, every addition to the game has the potential to upset the balance slightly between pve and pvp, for me the sniper rifle sways the game more towards pvp, I've seen pirates abandoning sail management, cannons, strategy all for trying to snipe the enemy with that rifle... for me that is a lean too far towards the fps/shooter genre as it stands at the moment.

    It's an incredibly difficult equilibrium that Rare are attempting to achieve and they look at feedback and reviews and adjust accordingly. Perhaps the 3 Trading Companies we've seen in progression videos will turn the balance the other way and it becomes more profitable to pursue quests on the way to becoming a Legendary Pirate.

  • @stem589 said in When does pirating become griefing?:

    When the game goes live and gathering and cashing is the name of the game, those looking to grief won't gain nearly as much as the treasure hunters do.

    I really do hope you're right. And agin, I don't have an issue with PvP, I think it will add a lot to a pirateing game. If it's done correctly.

  • @sandman929 Where is this adventure you speak of? All the islands are laid out on a nice map for you in your ship. None of them are big enough for anything meaningful on them. Only a few underwater treats at the moment and they are all ships with the exception of a few spots I found while swimming around and unmarked piece of land. Did I miss something did I sail past something that could be slightly construed as adventure.

  • They are being pirates! This game brings out stories from people, hence all of the ones above! This what the game is about! I enjoyed reading the sad stories because it’s sounds like to stuff I would do and have fun doing! It has also happened to me and I just laugh it off I try not taking this game to seriously.

    You just don’t have the pirate mind set it’s not your fault. Most games are good vs evil this is evil vs evil. So coming into this with a good mind set thinking every one will be like that is not going to go well for you.

  • I had my first experience of 'Sea of Thieves' today and, after about an hour and three chests or so, including one from a wreck, I never saw a sole. I was sailing solo. I guess that when I come back to playing in 4 hours or so it'll be busier.

    My brother-in-law has played previously and mentioned that he was getting camped at the outposts. So I guess it just depends on the instance that you're in and who's there.

  • @katttruewalker I would agree with you if I had seen anything in game that sways the game to the PVE side. Maybe I missed it what sways the gaming pendulum towards PVE? From what I have seen and can see gaining rep with a trading company on gives you access to more quests that gives more money. The few rep treasures you get don't truly add to part of the gaming experience. But I could be wrong, maybe we will get a better peak into the game via the BETA...................
    I have yet to see this scale you elude to RARE using to balance the game everything in the game I see points to PVP. Look I am not dumping on the game I just want people to be ok with the fact that the game is just PVP. Its ok and I am happy they hit their mark. What I don't like is when gamers try to force a game into a box its not meant to go in. I say this here so when a game comes out I'm excited about they don't come to that game and try to make it something its not. I have seen it happen all too often and I want to try an stop it here. This is a pvp game from what I have seen so as beta testers lets focus on making it the best PVP experience out there. If there are elements that should be here if it were supposed to be balanced pve/pvp that aren't here. Either that or the game is confused and it doesn't know what it wants to be. From listening to the vcasts and such they put out I get PVP.

  • @sergent-c****r said in When does pirating become griefing?:

    They are being pirates! This game brings out stories from people, hence all of the ones above! This what the game is about! I enjoyed reading the sad stories because it’s sounds like to stuff I would do and have fun doing! It has also happened to me and I just laugh it off I try not taking this game to seriously.

    You just don’t have the pirate mind set it’s not your fault. Most games are good vs evil this is evil vs evil. So coming into this with a good mind set thinking every one will be like that is not going to go well for you.

    Pirates are not about mindless violence though. They're all about the booty. You're right, they probably were just being pirates looking for gold, maybe, as I said, they didn't bother checking for chest. Maybe there could be some way to indicate a ship has gold on it to discourage wasting everyone's time attacking a freshly spawned ship. Maybe it sits a bit lower in the water from the weight of your massive booty.

  • @zero-daye I stop a lot along the way to where I'm going. Shipwrecks in particular, but sometimes just to get a look at an island before I might some time have to go there for treasure. I jump overboard to see if barrels have anything good...sometimes there's sharks. After I get treasure I usually go to a far away port rather than right back to the closest one. Occasionally I'll get chased and sometimes fight back.
    Adventure. With some friends along, even better since we can chat.

  • @zero-daye

    I see the need for NPC merchant ships or even NPC navel ships.

    If you attack someone at an outpost, you'll be flagged. Outpost guards will attack you and navel ships will come after you.

    Being very new to this game, I'm sure people have recommended this through the ALPHA.

  • Our ship runs by the rules of engagement rule. If we aren't being shot at we just keep an eye on other ships and let them do their thing. I know some people just want to sail around and do their thing and I'm not going to ruin their fun just because I want to shoot something. PVP isn't for everyone and this game is about playing the way you want.

  • If you're sitting around deliberately camping another ship so every time they die you just kill them again repeatedly for no reason, then it's griefing.

    Your goal when pirating other ships should be:

    • Get their loot

    If you can get onto their ship, take their loot, and leave before they even know what's going on, you probably should, unless you're waiting for them to come back with another chest, in which case killing them for the extra chest is about the extent to which you should kill them.

    Sinking their ship so they can't pursue is probably the last thing you would do, but even then, only if the likelihood of them pursuing is high.

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