I've actually stopped playing the game, i try getting back into it but I just don't find it as fun anymore. Most of the game is superficial, and nothing has been done since the game's initial release to change it. Difficulty is basically enemies with more health, there's no strategy or challenge to anything whether its enemies, puzzles, or platforming, and we've had the same 3 weapons for eternity with minimum synergy between them, other tools, and the environment or world.

• [list item]()@treozen1 said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

TLDR; the takeaway from what I’m saying is that I wish players would embrace the game as is, rather than advocating for significant change. Many of us love it for what it is and embrace all aspects of it. Even though I’m typically a pvp focused player it’s not fair to call me a pvper since I play all aspects of this game.

I think this is my first call-out: The issue with SoT and the need for Safer Seas is that too few PVP-focused players are willing to think about the opposite side of that coin - those PVE-focused, and how the game looks to them - its an entirely different mindset and gaming experience. You're advocating for the "many of you that love it for what it is" and wishing all players "would just embrace it" - but if you got your wish, I see only two realistic outcomes - 1) A small fraction embrace it 2) The vast majority decide SoT isn't for them and move on - taking their ships, community, player base and real-world money with them. The player that enjoys PVP and PVE in equal measure without preference is sort of a rare duck - and you can't wish people out of one camp and into the other. So the idea that everyone should, would or could just get onboard the PVP train isn't realistic, and as countless games have proven, catering to a narrow playerbase exclusively inevitably leads to an empty map and a game on life support. I think what you might be saying here (and forgive my if I'm wrong) is "hey - knuckleheads - you bought a PVP-focused game, and we the incumbents like it just the way it is, and if you don't like PVP, then quit buying PVP games and then trying to spoil them for those that do" And I'd honestly support that argument - BUT - unless the PVP group is willing to adopt some changes, a concept like Safer Seas is literally what you are asking for - leave the game for PVP players exactly the way it is......done.....but you'll lose the PVE crowd to Safer Seas in the process -I think its a bad trade-off, but its the one PVP players seem to have signed onto.

(Insert victim mentality and the corresponding advocation for change in order to alter the game to the victims perspective)

I reject the idea of a victim mentality. You could say its a fairness mentality, a "different game" mentality, a "I'd like to actually have fun and feel successful" mentality, but victim mentality is not the language I'd support.

I joined the game in around march and have been completely into it since then, playing nearly every day. I’ve got about 1k hours already..... You can’t expect to be competent without putting in some effort.

Agree on principle - but if my math is right, you have dedicated 111 hours every month for effectively 9 months straight - which is 4 hours a day, every single day, for 9 months. That puts you in the "hard-core" dedicated category and that sort of time just isn't the norm, certainly not for a more casual PVE player. This, too, is a common lack of perspective - and I mean no disrespect, but do you really expect players to dedicate the sort of time you have? Is that the bar that SoT sets before someone gets to feel competent and successful? To be honest, the time you have set aside is an argument FOR Safer Seas - because few players will ever have the time to skill-up and compete with PVP players if that is the standard.

It’s a game that allows beautiful struggle and provides a rewarding experience that can only be received after putting in effort, overcoming adversity, and having the resiliency to reach your goals...

I would encourage you to play as a PVE -only player for a month whilst also handicapping your obvious battle skills to that of a relative novice (i.e. someone that does not PVP) then come back and explain the beautiful struggle, rewarding experience and how long your resiliency lasted ;-)

To me this is a statement born of genuine ignorance - You're a dedicated, perhaps even hard-core, PVP-focused guy that has skilled up and embraced the PVP game for all its worth - and that is great, really, and I've no issues with it - but you cannot possibly know what it is to play as a PVE-focused player - we're a different breed. I'd ask you to accept the challenge and try see things from the other side.... the times you spend hours on a quest, and get sunk as you finally approach port....the times your ship gets raided and sunk while you are frantically digging up mostly worthless chests on some island....The times you get killed over and over no matter how well you might try defend, because you happen to have 6 bananas and a coconut.....the times when you actually manage to defend yourself and your little pile of loot, but the enemy just respawns and attacks over and over and over....because they've no skin in the game, nothing to lose and no risk to them....the times you fight a storm, then a skelly ship and escape a shark all on your own, only to have some crew in a ship four times your size waltz over and sink you.....mostly for the fun of it. Experience what it is to play a game and leave after an hour or two with zero to show for your effort, while a PVPer sells the three chests you found for a measly 1,500 gold, entirely taking the wind out of your sails, ....and then have these things happen session after session, not just the one or two times you decide not to PVP. This is what is is to be PVE in today's world -You can argue this is what the game is supposed to be, but give a little thought to another equally valid perspective and method of play -Why would PVE players want to stick it out on High Seas? To most PVE players, converting to PVP and skilling up as necessary to fight off these scenarios would be to change the experience into something even less enjoyable - like trying to force a right-handed person to write with their left.

players who spend their time in safer seas (regardless of what caps/restrictions are involved) will never experience it...

Exactly correct, because the "it" you refer to is not fun or satisfying for a whole lot of people, and they have no interest in being subjected to it. There's this idea out there that the PVE people will "miss out on what the game is" ...truth is, they'll only miss out on the PVP-vision of what the game can be, and to them, that's no loss.

Do I think separating the community is a detriment to the game overall? Yes I do. Many players will never leave the desired pve server, and games like this need all types of players. Young, old, all the genders, etc. sea of thieves is a game that will take you out of your comfort zone. It’s not meant as a sailing simulator.

I agree with you 100%. Despite everything I've said, I am in 2 minds about whether to go Safer or High Seas. I like the idea of meeting other players - in fact I'll often seek them out before I log and attempt to off-load stuff of value - like a rowboat, or supplies - sometimes even a piece of loot I missed. Its not always successful because everyone automatically assumes its time for a fight - and I sail a Brig, so....I guess I'm more suspicious? I also believe you need the PVE people to generate the loot that pirates can steal - I don't necessarily have anything against being prey, but I'd like it better if I had more of a chance to find success and a more balanced approach to combat. I worry that the PVP servers will just become full of hardened PVPers all roaming around looking for the one idiot PVE guy that's still too dumb to make the switch....(that'll be me) and if that happens, I will go Safer Seas....making the problem worse.

Guys, take the time get better. Currently I’m weak at the fps aspect and I’m doing everything I can to improve. Take a similar approach. As a surfer, I offer you this analogy: anyone can catch a wave their first time surfing, but those who take the time to improve will eventually be able to ride that ten foot wave

Except some people want to just walk the beach, pick up odd shells, experience the day, make art in the sand....and perhaps find surfers annoying when their surfboards drag up over the nice sand castles.

Signed - 41 year old gamer who began his journey in Ultima online and has since watched countless meaningless games come into existence where everyone wins, there’s no struggle, nothing to lose, just swords to collect. Hopefully sea of thieves doesn’t go that route.

Signed - 45 year old gamer that also started with Ultima Online, and has since watched countless games that might have been great, fade away because PVP refused to accommodate PVE audiences, or as often the case, the opposite. I think there are things that could be done to balance the game for both playstyles, but it seems we're tacking into the wind.

Very much respect the PVP angles, just don't entirely share them.

I understand your point, and I don’t disagree that comparing the well hashed out fairness of competitive sports to a video game isn’t the most accurate of comparison's. We do all have the same tools in SoT, though, and pirate PvP isn’t nearly as nuanced or competitive as professional or even amateur sports. I think that just about everyone playing SoT has the mental and physical capacity to improve their survivability. We all run the same speed, swim the same speed, have the same weapons, and have access to the same ships and crew sizes. Improving in pirate PvP is not the same level of difficulty as competing with players of different shapes, sizes, speeds, and so on. SoT is also only 5 years old while almost all professional or amateur athletes have been playing those sports all of their life. We could talk about the differences between SoT PvP and competitive sports all day, but the point I was trying to make is that we all have the same tools and the capacity to use them effectively with minimal practice. Like I said above, getting better doesn’t have to mean as good as everyone else. In SoT one might just want to cruise the beaches and do tall tales, surviving in that space doesn’t require much effort.

But yea, you’re right, not a one to one comparison. We could also add that different crew and ship sizes create a less fair environment, and as I’m sure you’ve seen there are post on these forums asking for solo servers. If we ended up with solo servers then there’d be post asking for brig only servers. I for one appreciate the ship and crew size diversity but many consider it unfair. But I digress…

When I think of fairness in games I think of level playing field, and I do not consider the existence of more competent players to be unfair, even though that might be the case in organized sports.

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

Well, the game is fair, it just is. Other players being more competent than you doesn't make the game unfair. Is baseball unfair? Football? Tennis? Of course not, everyone plays under the same rules and with the same equipment, just because one team wins more often than another doesn't make it unfair.

Just wanted to react to this point, since this comparison is hilariously off.

You compare it with some sports (i guess sports in general and these are just examples), but you forget one giant thing: all these sports have an IRL version of skill based matchmaking (SBMM), because they all believe it's not fair and fun for new players to play against pro's. Something that SoT obviously doesn't do.

Take for instance football (soccer for out stubborn American friends). In my country (Netherlands), it is devided my skill level into the following brackets (all names translated into english):

• Honour Division, top league (pro league)
• First Division (pro league)
• Second Division (semi-pro league)
• Third Division (semi-pro league)
• 4th Division (amature league)
• 1st Classe
• 2nd Classe
• 3rd Classe
• 4th Classe
• 5th Classe
• 6th Classe

That is already 11 brackets, and that only is purely for the best of the best players per club. Every club has lower teams for the lower skilled players and there are competitions for those (also divided into skill brackets), same for youth teams, because it's also not seen as fair to make them compete against adults, etc.

In total you would get way more then hundred different brackets. And other countries are no different in that. All to keep the game fun and fair, since sports don't think it's fair to make people compete against way more skilled players.

Sea of Thieves doesn't have any of that, so the comparison with sports is widely off there. So you're a bit contradicting yourself here in saying having none of those boundaries is fair, but then comparing it with sports where they do have it and still calling it fair...

@capt-greldik

You make some valid counterpoints, and I would agree with you, except then we'd both be wrong ;-)

Joking aside, while I remain generally committed to what I said, I applaud your approach and the craft that goes into your argument - I think there may be ample validity to go around point for point - I guess that's the great thing about perspective and opinion, wouldn't do if we all thought exactly the same.....well....except that I'd be right all the time, and that would be great ;-)

@treozen1 said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

Hey man, I meant to respond to this sooner but I've had guest, among other things. In any case, thanks for sharing your thoughts, any old UO gamer is okay in my book.

I think this is my first call-out: The issue with SoT and the need for Safer Seas is that too few PVP-focused players are willing to think about the opposite side of that coin - those PVE-focused, and how the game looks to them - its an entirely different mindset and gaming experience. You're advocating for the "many of you that love it for what it is" and wishing all players "would just embrace it" - but if you got your wish, I see only two realistic outcomes - 1) A small fraction embrace it 2) The vast majority decide SoT isn't for them and move on - taking their ships, community, player base and real-world money with them. The player that enjoys PVP and PVE in equal measure without preference is sort of a rare duck - and you can't wish people out of one camp and into the other. So the idea that everyone should, would or could just get onboard the PVP train isn't realistic, and as countless games have proven, catering to a narrow playerbase exclusively inevitably leads to an empty map and a game on life support.

I think self-proclaimed PvE'rs are so used to saying this that they often fail to consider the games age. SoT launched on 20 March, 2018, according to the interwebs. The interwebs also just informed me that there are about 250k players playing currently, to include both Steam and Xbox. SoT has been going for over 5 years with hundreds of thousands of players online daily. Your retroactive prediction does not hold up to the historical or current online player count. I don't disagree with you entirely; games with non-consensual PvP need to ensure that losing isn't awful, and many of them fail miserably at that. Ultima Online certainly had issues with it, as I'm sure you'd recall. That doesn't mean it's not possible to achieve balance in that regard. The moment you log into SoT you're on a level playing field with other players. Gear and player progression aren't a thing, and the only edge one can have is dependent on their resources, which we can call acquire easily.

I reject the idea of a victim mentality. You could say its a fairness mentality, a "different game" mentality, a "I'd like to actually have fun and feel successful" mentality, but victim mentality is not the language I'd support.

I disagree, and honestly I can't think of a more fitting name. You mentioned fairness and the desire to actually have fun and feel successful. Well, the game is fair, it just is. Other players being more competent than you doesn't make the game unfair. Is baseball unfair? Football? Tennis? Of course not, everyone plays under the same rules and with the same equipment, just because one team wins more often than another doesn't make it unfair. Having fun and feeling successful is subjective and I won't pretend to know what that means to you, but in the context of PvP you have so many options to thrive within its existence. You don't need to be a PvP god, or even good at PvP to become competent at survival. Yes, you will get sunk eventually, spawn camped, and so on. We all do, even the best PvPers might find themselves outnumbered and unable to stay afloat. For those that don't try to improve their odds, well, what else can I call a gamer who chooses to remain a victim, rather than strives to mitigate it?

Agree on principle - but if my math is right, you have dedicated 111 hours every month for effectively 9 months straight - which is 4 hours a day, every single day, for 9 months. That puts you in the "hard-core" dedicated category and that sort of time just isn't the norm, certainly not for a more casual PVE player. This, too, is a common lack of perspective - and I mean no disrespect, but do you really expect players to dedicate the sort of time you have? Is that the bar that SoT sets before someone gets to feel competent and successful? To be honest, the time you have set aside is an argument FOR Safer Seas - because few players will ever have the time to skill-up and compete with PVP players if that is the standard.

You are absolutely right, I spent waaaaay too much time on SoT in the last several months. This is the first game in a very long time that keeps me up past my bedtime. I've slowed down quite a bit and am getting into a more reasonable amount of playtime. Nobody needs to play this much to improve, though. Playing the absurd amount of time that I have will certainly accelerate your improvement, but it is definitely not required. Also, everyone has their own goals. If I only wanted to get better at surviving then I'd adjust my practice methodology. One thing I think that everyone should do is hit hourglass at the end of their session. After a long day of voyages, events, tall tales, or whatever else, we tend to have a lot of supplies. Don't just log off and let those supplies sink, hit hourglass and get at least one fight. That alone will eventually slow down PvP and allow the mind to make quicker decisions without all of the panicky motion blur that we all experience in a new game. Another thing I still do is shoot my bell during travel. Like the actual bell on the boat. I can't tell you how many shots my bell has absorbed, all in the name of practicing my aim. Anyone can do this. Those are just two very low commitment examples out of countless methods of improving without investing much time at all. Everyone can get better, and better doesn't have to mean as good as everyone else. At the end of the day we will all sink no matter how much effort we put in, and that's okay, right? PvPvE game, it's part of the design and we all must live within it during our sessions. You haven't experienced anything as a PvE focused player that everyone else hasn't. Also, since when are PvE'rs "more casual"? Quite the opposite in my experience. In UO, for example, many PvP'ers only did PvP content, and often had little to no housing decoration, flair, and so forth, while the PvE'rs had the castle, dragon, and outfit. I also knew plenty of PvP'ers (myself included) who did and had it all, but to suggest that PvE'rs are more casual just isn't reality in my gaming experience.

I would encourage you to play as a PVE -only player for a month whilst also handicapping your obvious battle skills to that of a relative novice (i.e. someone that does not PVP) then come back and explain the beautiful struggle, rewarding experience and how long your resiliency lasted ;-)

I have, we all have. More than a month, too. I mentioned in my original post that I did a LOT of Athena shipwrecks. When I said a lot, I meant it. Two to three months worth of them, and that wasn't the only thing I did during that time, it's just what I was "grinding". Before that I did countless ghost forts. I almost never had to PvP for the forts or the shipwrecks, because I actively tried to avoid it, and because people don't spend as much time in the Roar nor do they usually care about ghost fort activity other than for supplies. I did all of the shipwrecks in the Roar and was hyper vigilant since almost every PvP encounter I had ended with me talking to fish. I got 30 Athena before I even began my hourglass adventures. During that time I was definitely not good at PvP, not even close. I hadn't played a first person shooter in years so I was atrocious at that, and my naval was terrible because I just wasn't getting practice at it. Even shooting ghost ships and skelly ships will improve aim, but I wasn't really doing that at all. During that time I mostly avoided events because PvP is more likely to occur at them. Just because I do like PvP and have spent a lot of time doing it in other games doesn't mean that I logged into SoT with any competency whatsoever. Your experience was/is not different than mine was, I just responded differently.

To me this is a statement born of genuine ignorance - You're a dedicated, perhaps even hard-core, PVP-focused guy that has skilled up and embraced the PVP game for all its worth - and that is great, really, and I've no issues with it - but you cannot possibly know what it is to play as a PVE-focused player - we're a different breed. I'd ask you to accept the challenge and try see things from the other side.... the times you spend hours on a quest, and get sunk as you finally approach port....the times your ship gets raided and sunk while you are frantically digging up mostly worthless chests on some island....The times you get killed over and over no matter how well you might try defend, because you happen to have 6 bananas and a coconut.....the times when you actually manage to defend yourself and your little pile of loot, but the enemy just respawns and attacks over and over and over....because they've no skin in the game, nothing to lose and no risk to them....the times you fight a storm, then a skelly ship and escape a shark all on your own, only to have some crew in a ship four times your size waltz over and sink you.....mostly for the fun of it. Experience what it is to play a game and leave after an hour or two with zero to show for your effort, while a PVPer sells the three chests you found for a measly 1,500 gold, entirely taking the wind out of your sails, ....and then have these things happen session after session, not just the one or two times you decide not to PVP. This is what is is to be PVE in today's world -You can argue this is what the game is supposed to be, but give a little thought to another equally valid perspective and method of play -Why would PVE players want to stick it out on High Seas? To most PVE players, converting to PVP and skilling up as necessary to fight off these scenarios would be to change the experience into something even less enjoyable - like trying to force a right-handed person to write with their left.

Disagree, I think that my statement is exactly in line with the core design of SoT. You do need to put in effort, you will need to overcome adversity, and resiliency when faced with great adversity will go a long way towards progressing. You think I didn't get spawn camped? I still do sometimes, lol. You think I didn't get sunk over and over? We aren't living in separate worlds. We all have our own goals, to be honest I'm not even sure what mine are currently. I wanted to practice hourglass so that I can use what I learn there in adventure mode, and I'm quite happy with my progress in that regard and it has certainly empowered me in adventure mode. Now I'm doing Tall Tales and mixing my favorite events in. I also haven't even played since the Siren event came out. The point is, not everyone has the same goals in this game, so how good we need to be at PvP depends on those goals. You're right, I am a PvP focused player, so I do want to be good at PvP, but that isn't required for everyone to have fun and feel successful. Use a keg, use your environment, hop on their ship while they're chasing you and anchor them, the list goes on... While digging up treasure or doing events be vigilant, keep your head on the swivel. It's pretty rare that someone gets the jump on me anymore because I'm always on the look out; the map, the horizon, the immediate area, everywhere. Anyone can do that without even practicing.

Exactly correct, because the "it" you refer to is not fun or satisfying for a whole lot of people, and they have no interest in being subjected to it. There's this idea out there that the PVE people will "miss out on what the game is" ...truth is, they'll only miss out on the PVP-vision of what the game can be, and to them, that's no loss.

I stand by my statement. This is a PvPvE game and players who stay in Safer Seas will indeed miss that. If they didn't like it to begin with that's fine, we all like different things, but Safer Seas will not give them the game Rare intended for us to be playing, a Sea of Thieves.

Except some people want to just walk the beach, pick up odd shells, experience the day, make art in the sand....and perhaps find surfers annoying when their surfboards drag up over the nice sand castles.

That is perfectly acceptable, but in a game designed to foster player conflict they should probably consider checking the horizon occasionally, and maybe take it a step further and shoot their bell a couple times for practice. Also, in my experience it's pretty rare to get jumped while you're on some random island. Events, FotD, and so on are another story, but if you're actually just checking out the scenery then you'll probably be left alone. Again, anecdotal, but that's my experience on US West servers with a dash of Australia, US East, and Europe. I will say I find that servers with long hourglass queues (ie; Australia) do tend to be more aggressive in adventure mode. I figure this is because hourglass takes too long and pirates can't get that quick PvP fix.

Very much respect the PVP angles, just don't entirely share them.

Right back atcha, especially since I'm a PvE'er myself, just like we all should be in a PvPvE game.

@gloriousmustard sagte in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@soulstinger2k20
I can help you understand. Ppl bought the game thinking they could have fun although the PvP style isn't their fav. But years later the game is only for kids, sweatlords and streamers. I tried dozens of times to have fun, and EVERY TIME there was someone camping me destroying my game exp. This is NOT fun, you know. So i don't understand you guys, you're acting like Higher Seas are gone. You can still play your game but you don't like others enjoy the game the way they want? If you don't like Safer Seas DON'T PLAY IT. It's that simple. The only explanation is that you want weak players, solo players and pleyers they can't defend themselves to be there for you to have fun.
You're making an issue out of nothing: Stay on Higher Seas and let other ppl play Safer Seas. I don't mean to be rude but you're acting like you own the game. And the game is not doing very well because ppl have enough with this "fun" Higher Seas is

my adventure experience is totally different from yours, over the last weeks ive PVEd in the roar for 20h+ and havent seen one single boat for exmaple. outside of that i have not been camped in adventure for over a year now, and all i do is solo, and probably have like 500h+ over the last year.

anyways it doenst rly matter, im fine with people moving to safer seas as long as they are not able to get high sea exp/commendations/gold/progress. like lets be real the challenge in sot is not killing skeletons or ashen lords, its turning loot in.

@gloriousmustard said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@soulstinger2k20
So i don't understand you guys, you're acting like Higher Seas are gone.

And why are you acting like safe seas aren't coming and fixing your issues?
Is it about the fair safe seas restrictions again?

The only explanation is that you want weak players, solo players and pleyers they can't defend themselves to be there for you to have fun.

Two can play this game, does it mean that you guys can't have fun unless you win every time, you can't handle loss and you want the same rewards than those taking more risks, while having none of the challenge and a fraction of the effort?

Didn't think so eh? Same goes for this tired "need weak preys" fallacy.

@gloriousmustard I could make exactly the same argument to you.

If you dont like SoT or arent having fun, dont play it.

You either stick with it and get better, or go find something else. Bleating for the core concept of a game to be changed to suit your tastes is what I disagree with.

@soulstinger2k20
I can help you understand. Ppl bought the game thinking they could have fun although the PvP style isn't their fav. But years later the game is only for kids, sweatlords and streamers. I tried dozens of times to have fun, and EVERY TIME there was someone camping me destroying my game exp. This is NOT fun, you know. So i don't understand you guys, you're acting like Higher Seas are gone. You can still play your game but you don't like others enjoy the game the way they want? If you don't like Safer Seas DON'T PLAY IT. It's that simple. The only explanation is that you want weak players, solo players and pleyers they can't defend themselves to be there for you to have fun.
You're making an issue out of nothing: Stay on Higher Seas and let other ppl play Safer Seas. I don't mean to be rude but you're acting like you own the game. And the game is not doing very well because ppl have enough with this "fun" Higher Seas is

@cattelia

@cattelia sagte in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@thagoochiestman said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@bloodybil So you seriously believe that Rare introducing this new, non-PvP mode is somehow not catering to the (more lucrative) casual crowd? It's been stated before, but the "Pirate" crowd doesn't spend "Ancient Coins" (microtransactions) like the more casual players...they would rather steal/earn them...which isn't as lucrative to the business actually financing the game.

If you want your game (or business) to be successful, you cater it towards people who will actually buy it. If your key customers are thieves, you will never make any money. That's why all web-based businesses cater to their most active customers (assuming they are not irredeemable human beings).

Long story short: that's why Rare is embracing the PvE crowd.

I dare say that stealing them is NOT earning them. The person who went out to do the PvE content, for HOURS, earned them. You ["Pirate" crowd] bullied them out of that work for a mediocre amount of effort. It's laughable.

do you understand you just described the game? using words like "bullied" means you are not understanding what this game is about. sinking someone and taking theit loot is not bullying them. its the gamedesign.

im with you 100% but then again i am pretty competitive, i learned there are people who just want to do PVE and not get bothered and thats perfectly fine. safer seas needs a cap tho. i think having commendations in safer seas is a beating to everyone who had to do them on high seas.

anyways high seas are softer than ever and basically are safer seas already since every PVPer is diving anyways. i feel like thats wat season8 did, splitting the community already in a big way.

@treozen1 said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@bloodybil said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@treozen1 said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

You think only a small part of the community embraces both PVE and PVP and the majority would leave without full PVE servers?
Considering Rare's position on the matter, it looks like it's the other way around.

Sort of, but I'm talking about the PVE subset specifically - i.e. those that really want to PVE, and are not really interested or good at PVP. If we're talking about the entire mixed community, then I agree with you, but if we are talking about the core PVE folks - yes, I stand by the idea that if the choice was to embrace it or move on, the majority would ultimately move on. Rare's position- i.e. to do a 180 degree reverse course on PVE servers, suggests to me they agree - ie. do something for these PVE people, or lose them.

I would be willing to bet that PVEVP players are pretty much the norm on the seas and the rare ducks are on both ends of the spectrum of PVE-only or PVP-only. Those last two are welcome on the seas like anybody else, but can't be whining that the game doesn't solely cater to them when it is designed to balance those activities together.

Don't disagree - and I've not gotten enough time with the game to know what the norm is for player mix, so I'll take your word on it.

The way safer seas and it's restrictions will work, it will be a totally fair compromise that will not hurt the balance of players while giving respite to PVE-only players too. I can't see why even PVP players could be against it, and as a PVEVP "rare" player myself, I look forward to play both modes!

I'm going to try stick to High Seas, but I am not hopeful. I feel like I'll end up a gazelle without a herd.

I think Rare always tries to please as many people in the community as possible, finding ways and compromises for everybody to have fun, while avoiding to upset the game core balance as much as possible too.

I feel that it will be better than ever soon for people who dislike PVP, and that Safe seas and guilds goes hand in hand even if they don't work together: New players (or players who avoid PVP) can enjoy a smooth experience and familiarize with the game, and when ready to play High seas (or wants to take a leap and aim at higher rewards and events) they can look into guilds and find like-minded people that they can enjoy the game with, as well has getting a hand in the PVP aspect of the game where they might lack.

Find your herd!

@bloodybil said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@treozen1 said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

You think only a small part of the community embraces both PVE and PVP and the majority would leave without full PVE servers?
Considering Rare's position on the matter, it looks like it's the other way around.

Sort of, but I'm talking about the PVE subset specifically - i.e. those that really want to PVE, and are not really interested or good at PVP. If we're talking about the entire mixed community, then I agree with you, but if we are talking about the core PVE folks - yes, I stand by the idea that if the choice was to embrace it or move on, the majority would ultimately move on. Rare's position- i.e. to do a 180 degree reverse course on PVE servers, suggests to me they agree - ie. do something for these PVE people, or lose them.

I would be willing to bet that PVEVP players are pretty much the norm on the seas and the rare ducks are on both ends of the spectrum of PVE-only or PVP-only. Those last two are welcome on the seas like anybody else, but can't be whining that the game doesn't solely cater to them when it is designed to balance those activities together.

Don't disagree - and I've not gotten enough time with the game to know what the norm is for player mix, so I'll take your word on it.

The way safer seas and it's restrictions will work, it will be a totally fair compromise that will not hurt the balance of players while giving respite to PVE-only players too. I can't see why even PVP players could be against it, and as a PVEVP "rare" player myself, I look forward to play both modes!

I'm going to try stick to High Seas, but I am not hopeful. I feel like I'll end up a gazelle without a herd.

@treozen1 said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

You're advocating for the "many of you that love it for what it is" and wishing all players "would just embrace it" - but if you got your wish, I see only two realistic outcomes - 1) A small fraction embrace it 2) The vast majority decide SoT isn't for them and move on - taking their ships, community, player base and real-world money with them.

You think only a small part of the community embraces both PVE and PVP and the majority would leave without full PVE servers?
Considering Rare's position on the matter, it looks like it's the other way around.

The player that enjoys PVP and PVE in equal measure without preference is sort of a rare duck - and you can't wish people out of one camp and into the other.

I would be willing to bet that PVEVP players are pretty much the norm on the seas and the rare ducks are on both ends of the spectrum of PVE-only or PVP-only. Those last two are welcome on the seas like anybody else, but can't be whining that the game doesn't solely cater to them when it is designed to balance those activities together.

So the idea that everyone should, would or could just get onboard the PVP train isn't realistic, and as countless games have proven, catering to a narrow playerbase exclusively inevitably leads to an empty map and a game on life support. I think what you might be saying here (and forgive my if I'm wrong) is "hey - knuckleheads - you bought a PVP-focused game, and we the incumbents like it just the way it is, and if you don't like PVP, then quit buying PVP games and then trying to spoil them for those that do" And I'd honestly support that argument - BUT - unless the PVP group is willing to adopt some changes, a concept like Safer Seas is literally what you are asking for - leave the game for PVP players exactly the way it is......done.....but you'll lose the PVE crowd to Safer Seas in the process -I think its a bad trade-off, but its the one PVP players seem to have signed onto.

The way safer seas and it's restrictions will work, it will be a totally fair compromise that will not hurt the balance of players while giving respite to PVE-only players too. I can't see why even PVP players could be against it, and as a PVEVP "rare" player myself, I look forward to play both modes!

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

TLDR; the takeaway from what I’m saying is that I wish players would embrace the game as is, rather than advocating for significant change. Many of us love it for what it is and embrace all aspects of it. Even though I’m typically a pvp focused player it’s not fair to call me a pvper since I play all aspects of this game.

I think this is my first call-out: The issue with SoT and the need for Safer Seas is that too few PVP-focused players are willing to think about the opposite side of that coin - those PVE-focused, and how the game looks to them - its an entirely different mindset and gaming experience. You're advocating for the "many of you that love it for what it is" and wishing all players "would just embrace it" - but if you got your wish, I see only two realistic outcomes - 1) A small fraction embrace it 2) The vast majority decide SoT isn't for them and move on - taking their ships, community, player base and real-world money with them. The player that enjoys PVP and PVE in equal measure without preference is sort of a rare duck - and you can't wish people out of one camp and into the other. So the idea that everyone should, would or could just get onboard the PVP train isn't realistic, and as countless games have proven, catering to a narrow playerbase exclusively inevitably leads to an empty map and a game on life support. I think what you might be saying here (and forgive my if I'm wrong) is "hey - knuckleheads - you bought a PVP-focused game, and we the incumbents like it just the way it is, and if you don't like PVP, then quit buying PVP games and then trying to spoil them for those that do" And I'd honestly support that argument - BUT - unless the PVP group is willing to adopt some changes, a concept like Safer Seas is literally what you are asking for - leave the game for PVP players exactly the way it is......done.....but you'll lose the PVE crowd to Safer Seas in the process -I think its a bad trade-off, but its the one PVP players seem to have signed onto.

(Insert victim mentality and the corresponding advocation for change in order to alter the game to the victims perspective)

I reject the idea of a victim mentality. You could say its a fairness mentality, a "different game" mentality, a "I'd like to actually have fun and feel successful" mentality, but victim mentality is not the language I'd support.

I joined the game in around march and have been completely into it since then, playing nearly every day. I’ve got about 1k hours already..... You can’t expect to be competent without putting in some effort.

Agree on principle - but if my math is right, you have dedicated 111 hours every month for effectively 9 months straight - which is 4 hours a day, every single day, for 9 months. That puts you in the "hard-core" dedicated category and that sort of time just isn't the norm, certainly not for a more casual PVE player. This, too, is a common lack of perspective - and I mean no disrespect, but do you really expect players to dedicate the sort of time you have? Is that the bar that SoT sets before someone gets to feel competent and successful? To be honest, the time you have set aside is an argument FOR Safer Seas - because few players will ever have the time to skill-up and compete with PVP players if that is the standard.

It’s a game that allows beautiful struggle and provides a rewarding experience that can only be received after putting in effort, overcoming adversity, and having the resiliency to reach your goals...

I would encourage you to play as a PVE -only player for a month whilst also handicapping your obvious battle skills to that of a relative novice (i.e. someone that does not PVP) then come back and explain the beautiful struggle, rewarding experience and how long your resiliency lasted ;-)

To me this is a statement born of genuine ignorance - You're a dedicated, perhaps even hard-core, PVP-focused guy that has skilled up and embraced the PVP game for all its worth - and that is great, really, and I've no issues with it - but you cannot possibly know what it is to play as a PVE-focused player - we're a different breed. I'd ask you to accept the challenge and try see things from the other side.... the times you spend hours on a quest, and get sunk as you finally approach port....the times your ship gets raided and sunk while you are frantically digging up mostly worthless chests on some island....The times you get killed over and over no matter how well you might try defend, because you happen to have 6 bananas and a coconut.....the times when you actually manage to defend yourself and your little pile of loot, but the enemy just respawns and attacks over and over and over....because they've no skin in the game, nothing to lose and no risk to them....the times you fight a storm, then a skelly ship and escape a shark all on your own, only to have some crew in a ship four times your size waltz over and sink you.....mostly for the fun of it. Experience what it is to play a game and leave after an hour or two with zero to show for your effort, while a PVPer sells the three chests you found for a measly 1,500 gold, entirely taking the wind out of your sails, ....and then have these things happen session after session, not just the one or two times you decide not to PVP. This is what is is to be PVE in today's world -You can argue this is what the game is supposed to be, but give a little thought to another equally valid perspective and method of play -Why would PVE players want to stick it out on High Seas? To most PVE players, converting to PVP and skilling up as necessary to fight off these scenarios would be to change the experience into something even less enjoyable - like trying to force a right-handed person to write with their left.

players who spend their time in safer seas (regardless of what caps/restrictions are involved) will never experience it...

Exactly correct, because the "it" you refer to is not fun or satisfying for a whole lot of people, and they have no interest in being subjected to it. There's this idea out there that the PVE people will "miss out on what the game is" ...truth is, they'll only miss out on the PVP-vision of what the game can be, and to them, that's no loss.

Do I think separating the community is a detriment to the game overall? Yes I do. Many players will never leave the desired pve server, and games like this need all types of players. Young, old, all the genders, etc. sea of thieves is a game that will take you out of your comfort zone. It’s not meant as a sailing simulator.

I agree with you 100%. Despite everything I've said, I am in 2 minds about whether to go Safer or High Seas. I like the idea of meeting other players - in fact I'll often seek them out before I log and attempt to off-load stuff of value - like a rowboat, or supplies - sometimes even a piece of loot I missed. Its not always successful because everyone automatically assumes its time for a fight - and I sail a Brig, so....I guess I'm more suspicious? I also believe you need the PVE people to generate the loot that pirates can steal - I don't necessarily have anything against being prey, but I'd like it better if I had more of a chance to find success and a more balanced approach to combat. I worry that the PVP servers will just become full of hardened PVPers all roaming around looking for the one idiot PVE guy that's still too dumb to make the switch....(that'll be me) and if that happens, I will go Safer Seas....making the problem worse.

Guys, take the time get better. Currently I’m weak at the fps aspect and I’m doing everything I can to improve. Take a similar approach. As a surfer, I offer you this analogy: anyone can catch a wave their first time surfing, but those who take the time to improve will eventually be able to ride that ten foot wave

Except some people want to just walk the beach, pick up odd shells, experience the day, make art in the sand....and perhaps find surfers annoying when their surfboards drag up over the nice sand castles.

Signed - 41 year old gamer who began his journey in Ultima online and has since watched countless meaningless games come into existence where everyone wins, there’s no struggle, nothing to lose, just swords to collect. Hopefully sea of thieves doesn’t go that route.

Signed - 45 year old gamer that also started with Ultima Online, and has since watched countless games that might have been great, fade away because PVP refused to accommodate PVE audiences, or as often the case, the opposite. I think there are things that could be done to balance the game for both playstyles, but it seems we're tacking into the wind.

Very much respect the PVP angles, just don't entirely share them.

@cattelia said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@thagoochiestman said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@bloodybil So you seriously believe that Rare introducing this new, non-PvP mode is somehow not catering to the (more lucrative) casual crowd? It's been stated before, but the "Pirate" crowd doesn't spend "Ancient Coins" (microtransactions) like the more casual players...they would rather steal/earn them...which isn't as lucrative to the business actually financing the game.

If you want your game (or business) to be successful, you cater it towards people who will actually buy it. If your key customers are thieves, you will never make any money. That's why all web-based businesses cater to their most active customers (assuming they are not irredeemable human beings).

Long story short: that's why Rare is embracing the PvE crowd.

I dare say that stealing them is NOT earning them. The person who went out to do the PvE content, for HOURS, earned them. You ["Pirate" crowd] bullied them out of that work for a mediocre amount of effort. It's laughable.

No loot is yours until cashed in. the last person turning it in deserved it, no matter how obtained.
If someone didn't pay attention and couldn't defend their haul, it's unfortunate but to the victor goes the spoil.
More loot is always obtainable, it's just a game and it's not a big deal.

@cattelia said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@thagoochiestman said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@bloodybil So you seriously believe that Rare introducing this new, non-PvP mode is somehow not catering to the (more lucrative) casual crowd? It's been stated before, but the "Pirate" crowd doesn't spend "Ancient Coins" (microtransactions) like the more casual players...they would rather steal/earn them...which isn't as lucrative to the business actually financing the game.

If you want your game (or business) to be successful, you cater it towards people who will actually buy it. If your key customers are thieves, you will never make any money. That's why all web-based businesses cater to their most active customers (assuming they are not irredeemable human beings).

Long story short: that's why Rare is embracing the PvE crowd.

I dare say that stealing them is NOT earning them. The person who went out to do the PvE content, for HOURS, earned them. You ["Pirate" crowd] bullied them out of that work for a mediocre amount of effort. It's laughable.

If you're spending hours on PvE content and you lose it all, sail to an outpost more often and turn loot in - don't sail around with more loot than you care about to lose.

@cattelia said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@thagoochiestman said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@bloodybil So you seriously believe that Rare introducing this new, non-PvP mode is somehow not catering to the (more lucrative) casual crowd? It's been stated before, but the "Pirate" crowd doesn't spend "Ancient Coins" (microtransactions) like the more casual players...they would rather steal/earn them...which isn't as lucrative to the business actually financing the game.

If you want your game (or business) to be successful, you cater it towards people who will actually buy it. If your key customers are thieves, you will never make any money. That's why all web-based businesses cater to their most active customers (assuming they are not irredeemable human beings).

Long story short: that's why Rare is embracing the PvE crowd.

I dare say that stealing them is NOT earning them. The person who went out to do the PvE content, for HOURS, earned them. You ["Pirate" crowd] bullied them out of that work for a mediocre amount of effort. It's laughable.

What specifically are you guys talking about earning, by the way? The most difficult thing that I earned in this game is 200 in each faction.

Also, is pirate a bad word now? Currently I’m doing tall tales because I want the gold curse. Should I now get mad at anyone who attacks me? Cmon guys. Pvpve game, I’m playing it as intended. The mental gymnastics that goes into painting pvpers (again, trying to separate players into two categories doesn’t make sense in SoT since we should all be doing both) as bad on these forums is, well… not unique to this game unfortunately.

@thagoochiestman said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@bloodybil So you seriously believe that Rare introducing this new, non-PvP mode is somehow not catering to the (more lucrative) casual crowd? It's been stated before, but the "Pirate" crowd doesn't spend "Ancient Coins" (microtransactions) like the more casual players...they would rather steal/earn them...which isn't as lucrative to the business actually financing the game.

If you want your game (or business) to be successful, you cater it towards people who will actually buy it. If your key customers are thieves, you will never make any money. That's why all web-based businesses cater to their most active customers (assuming they are not irredeemable human beings).

Long story short: that's why Rare is embracing the PvE crowd.

I dare say that stealing them is NOT earning them. The person who went out to do the PvE content, for HOURS, earned them. You ["Pirate" crowd] bullied them out of that work for a mediocre amount of effort. It's laughable.

@capt-greldik said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@thagoochiestman said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@bloodybil So you seriously believe that Rare introducing this new, non-PvP mode is somehow not catering to the (more lucrative) casual crowd? It's been stated before, but the "Pirate" crowd doesn't spend "Ancient Coins" (microtransactions) like the more casual players...they would rather steal/earn them...which isn't as lucrative to the business actually financing the game.

If you want your game (or business) to be successful, you cater it towards people who will actually buy it. If your key customers are thieves, you will never make any money. That's why all web-based businesses cater to their most active customers (assuming they are not irredeemable human beings).

Long story short: that's why Rare is embracing the PvE crowd.

No offense, but I always find it cringe when players cite business decisions they perceive as beneficial (source?) to a gaming company that just so happen to suit their narrative. We don’t actually know what Rare’s bottom line looks like, we just don’t. If I had to guess, I’d guess that what you just said is false considering this game is 5 years old and has consistently had hundreds of thousands of players playing daily. Furthermore, why would Rare expect players who clearly don’t even like the core design of SoT to be more interested in buying more cosmetics than the players who play regularly? That doesn’t make sense to me, I’d be curious to see the source of information which led you to believe that.

This is a common narrative in games that include both pvp and pve. The self proclaimed pve’r (everyone in this game pve’s) claims that they’re the majority and therefore should be catered to, because they’ve been convinced that catering to them is the only way a game could possibly be profitable. Well, SoT isn’t new, and with hundreds of thousands of daily players for many years now, one can only assume that they’ve been profitable.

This, It's funny to see armchair-CEOs acting like they know more and better than Rare, who actually has data and a pulse on the community as a whole. They state they know best without having any evidence whatsoever and how/why their suggestions would add or bring back gorrilions players.
These great economists and business people act like Rare should catter to the more lucrative crowd, without realizing that is exactly what Rare is doing, their confirmation that the direction of the game won't change simply proves it.

@thagoochiestman said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

@crowedhunter said in PVE servers/Safer seas/victim mentality from a “pvpers” perspective:

I have introduced 5 people to this game, and played with like 4 newbies. None of them play anymore.

This is a hugely important detail.

For better or worse, people need to realize this about modern businesses (or at least those funded by VC money): if you aren't growing and/or monetizing your user-base, you're dying.

Despite being a subsidiary of Microsoft, Rare is no different; if they can't convince the higher-ups that the game is a worthwhile (and growing) investment, Microsoft will cut the cord and shift resources to develop something else. Well-crafted games with niche communities are no longer financially viable to a trillion-dollar company, especially when those resources could be allocated to titles with more widespread appeal.

This is a non-issue. Player retetntion is high in every game. New people not sticking around could be said about every game. Even the most successful ones on the market today.

As far as nieche goes, sea of thieves is beating nieche games on average players by a long margin.
Sometimes its better to stay nieche than cater to casuals and loose your whole games soul in progress. If your game is like every other game then people are simply going to have more options.
If sot in its current form wasnt a major success, we wouldnt be getting constant free updates and collabs with the likes of disney 5 years into games life.