@toggledeez agree also apart from the 3 hit kill. Although that would be balanced with what we have currently, I don't want to reduce kill times, I want them to all have a similar TTk to a sword + gun combo. I'd say that the combo should be increased to 4 hits rather than the current 3 but again that's thinking about current damage balancing. I preferred the sword in it's old guise where it had this back and forth duel.

The 2 primary reasons people don't use the sword:
-isn't reliable
-weak compared to the blunderbuss

Best suggestion I have seen here in a while.

@toggledeez I think the block deserves a buff as well. Make it actually work and maybe have a direct block on a shot sponge some of the damage.

@toggledeez said in Pistol only double gun:

A sword swing hitting another pirate first does not always cancel the opponents sword swing.

The sword interrupt mechanic is beyond broken and totally RNG probably ping based.

They need to fix sword duels. Using a sword should feel consistent and skillful.

The pirate who gets the first hit is supposed to be able to finish a combo without being struck by the opponent’s sword.

The pirate who gets hit by a sword swing first is supposed to only be able to block with their sword or move away not spam through other peoples combo.

Honestly the sword should kill in 3 swings if the blunderbuss can kill in one shot.

Sword has always been weak. The only reason it seems strong is because hitreg is a real issue and aiming without aim assist requires skill and coordination.

There is no question the sword is the easiest weapon to use but it’s by far the least effective weapon to use against competent pirates.

I really like and appreciate what you wrote and agree with a lot of it. The things I differ on are the 3 hit kills, one blundering someone requires me to be quite close and if I miss one pellet you’ll live, but with one combo I’d die, it seems a little unbalanced.

I am totally for the fixing of the sword and the spamming through. I do think the the sword suck back needs to be addressed but it seems that you agree on that as well.

@a10dr4651 said in Pistol only double gun:

@jj-h816 you've replied to quite a few comments so I'm not just going to reply back to your answer to me but I actually agree with what you're saying regarding the sword stun. It feels very janky. Its purpose is there to stop people running away but it does feel very odd.

As I've commented many times, the swords problem in terms of balance is that it does not reward you for having the ability to dodge incoming shots. You can still reload a blunderbuff before you can chase someone down and hit them 4 times. Add in some animation cancelling and the problem is even worse. Most other games melee weapons do the highest damage for this reason. I'm after slower TTK across the board. The combat does not suit insta deaths or 1 second TTK's because of what is at stake. In a competitive shooter it's different, there's no ship to look after or defend.

I'm not anti against people who double gun. Its in the game, I don't blame people for using it. I'm against unfair advantages remaining in the game that forces players to choose one tool. That is the opposite to tools not rules. Most double gunners who don't animation cancel give me no problems.

I’m for fixing the cancelling.

A sword swing hitting another pirate first does not always cancel the opponents sword swing.

The sword interrupt mechanic is beyond broken and totally RNG probably ping based.

They need to fix sword duels. Using a sword should feel consistent and skillful.

The pirate who gets the first hit is supposed to be able to finish a combo without being struck by the opponent’s sword.

The pirate who gets hit by a sword swing first is supposed to only be able to block with their sword or move away not spam through other peoples combo.

Honestly the sword should kill in 3 swings if the blunderbuss can kill in one shot.

Sword has always been weak. The only reason it seems strong is because hitreg is a real issue and aiming without aim assist requires skill and coordination.

There is no question the sword is the easiest weapon to use but it’s by far the least effective weapon to use against competent pirates.

Out of interest from this thread I've managed to run a little bit of an experiment today. It's not entirely fool proof of course but it gives a rough gauge of balancing.

So I managed to get me and one of my regular crew members into the same server on solo sloops. We met at a fort and parked the ships together for a TDM match.
Rules laid out:
Coconuts only as food
No killing in water or on ladder
No throwables
No animation cancelling
We did a first to 5 wins initially using sword/pistol together to gauge skill levels. I ended up winning 5-4. It was pretty balanced between us with hit reg often deciding the battle. Loser swaps to EoR/Blunder.
I then lost 5-1. My crew mate is a pretty decent FPS player so the skills transferred and even after dodging shots I could not for the life of me pin them down before they either hopped off the ship or reloaded the blunderbuss.

Take from this what you will. To me that shows imbalance in the weapons.

@grog-minto said in Pistol only double gun:

@lordqulex If it was the case, yeah the right move would be to pull of the sword lock. But it could well not be the case. It could be why they didn't already.

Hypothetically, the data rare has on this subject indicate that the current state of combat is the best for the long run. :p

Or, hypothetically, that they are prioritizing current player retention over new player retention. Which is a mistake IME. 🤷‍♂️ The world may never know.

@lordqulex If it was the case, yeah the right move would be to pull of the sword lock. But it could well not be the case. It could be why they didn't already.

Hypothetically, the data rare has on this subject indicate that the current state of combat is the best for the long run. :p

@jj-h816 said in Pistol only double gun:

@lordqulex said in Pistol only double gun:

@jj-h816 said in Pistol only double gun:

@lordqulex said in Pistol only double gun:

Go watch movies, read some books, go read articles about historical pirates/privateers, then understand why every pirate carried a sword or boarding axe at all times.

Even when they had harnesses that held six flintlocks, they took way too long to reload and close quarters combat lasted much much longer than six shots. (Also partially because non-rifled firearms were wildly inaccurate, so maybe hit reg is a feature and not a bug?)

The answer that relieves pressure off of swabbies, the answer that fixes the fast-reload-animation-cancel, the answer that may even perhaps negate the need for XBox only servers, is to lock the sword as one of the weapons.

No! I don’t like the sword, why should I have to use it?

The greater good?

What greater good? Life get real dangerous when we start calling things for the greater good and one mindset forces another to do or act in a way that limits their freedoms simply because “we don’t like them. I believe this has happened a few times throughout history and we generally view these times as quite negative……. So maybe we keep freedom of choice? Imagine how upset you’d be if when you logged in after the Tuesday update to find no sword? Ya you’d all quit

Hypothetically, let's say tomorrow Rare publishes statistics that prove beyond a reasonably doubt that locking the sword in the first weapon slot would release pressure off new swabbies and increase new player retention by 50%, as well as fix both of the animation cancel cancel exploits. They lock it. Would you quit the game? Or would you understand the decision is best for the game?

That's really what I'm talking about here for the greater good. I don't know what the greater good is, neither do you. But Rare may have the numbers to show correlations and perhaps even causations. I double gun a fair bit, depending on what position of the ship I'm playing that session. I understand the advantages of it and the limitations. But I also want to see this game last the 5 more years of their 10 year plan, and that sometimes means giving new players priority over old players. (coughs hourglass coughs)

I was being entirely facetious when I said the greater good before, but at some point Rare has to decide which pirates to try and retain and which to aggravate. Frankly, if I had an inkling beyond a reasonable doubt that removing double gunning would retain more players than we'd lose due to removing it, that's a trigger I'd pull real fast as a producer or lead designer. I have never once in my years on planet seen any game survive that caters to its existing player base over new player retention.

I would love using the sword in combat again, if only it was reliable. I find it frustrating to use atm. Against another sword, the block don't always work properly, I can get stunned despite hitting with a dash, sometimes I don't stun my opponent despite hitting them... Against a skilled double gunner, it's frustrating too if they use their tools (including blunderbombs) efficiently.

But you'd need to take care of both aspects. I have no interest for sword vs sword combat in its current state.

@jj-h816 you've replied to quite a few comments so I'm not just going to reply back to your answer to me but I actually agree with what you're saying regarding the sword stun. It feels very janky. Its purpose is there to stop people running away but it does feel very odd.

As I've commented many times, the swords problem in terms of balance is that it does not reward you for having the ability to dodge incoming shots. You can still reload a blunderbuff before you can chase someone down and hit them 4 times. Add in some animation cancelling and the problem is even worse. Most other games melee weapons do the highest damage for this reason. I'm after slower TTK across the board. The combat does not suit insta deaths or 1 second TTK's because of what is at stake. In a competitive shooter it's different, there's no ship to look after or defend.

I'm not anti against people who double gun. Its in the game, I don't blame people for using it. I'm against unfair advantages remaining in the game that forces players to choose one tool. That is the opposite to tools not rules. Most double gunners who don't animation cancel give me no problems.

@captaintibbz said in Pistol only double gun:

@gallerine5582 I have infact talked to hundreds of pirates in open crew about it.

ah yes, open crew, the best source of opinion of skilled, long-term, or generally experienced members of the community. I say this not to ignore that new players might have a hard time, but that combat shouldn't be absolutely ruined at the expense of such players. It is positive to have difficulty and a learning curve to games, it keeps it interesting and allows players to keep discovering even if they thought they knew everything.

@lordqulex said in Pistol only double gun:

@jj-h816 said in Pistol only double gun:

@lordqulex said in Pistol only double gun:

Go watch movies, read some books, go read articles about historical pirates/privateers, then understand why every pirate carried a sword or boarding axe at all times.

Even when they had harnesses that held six flintlocks, they took way too long to reload and close quarters combat lasted much much longer than six shots. (Also partially because non-rifled firearms were wildly inaccurate, so maybe hit reg is a feature and not a bug?)

The answer that relieves pressure off of swabbies, the answer that fixes the fast-reload-animation-cancel, the answer that may even perhaps negate the need for XBox only servers, is to lock the sword as one of the weapons.

No! I don’t like the sword, why should I have to use it?

The greater good?

What greater good? Life get real dangerous when we start calling things for the greater good and one mindset forces another to do or act in a way that limits their freedoms simply because “we don’t like them. I believe this has happened a few times throughout history and we generally view these times as quite negative……. So maybe we keep freedom of choice? Imagine how upset you’d be if when you logged in after the Tuesday update to find no sword? Ya you’d all quit

@jj-h816 said in Pistol only double gun:

@lordqulex said in Pistol only double gun:

Go watch movies, read some books, go read articles about historical pirates/privateers, then understand why every pirate carried a sword or boarding axe at all times.

Even when they had harnesses that held six flintlocks, they took way too long to reload and close quarters combat lasted much much longer than six shots. (Also partially because non-rifled firearms were wildly inaccurate, so maybe hit reg is a feature and not a bug?)

The answer that relieves pressure off of swabbies, the answer that fixes the fast-reload-animation-cancel, the answer that may even perhaps negate the need for XBox only servers, is to lock the sword as one of the weapons.

No! I don’t like the sword, why should I have to use it?

The greater good?

@zimited8670 1v4 senarios are not a great guage of overall balance for crews.....

@bun-e-hopps I feel double gunning is great. 1v4 scenarios become harder the weaker these weapons are made. I personally love the one blunder and that hitting a sniper shot actually gains significance because of being able to follow it up with a second gun before the enemy eats a whole pineapple.

I mean I could even support a pistol double gun where you get to shoot both at once. It's still more balanced!

@toggledeez unfortunately... it's a bit beside the point that the meta is overdrive.

I wish when I opened up the armory that there was a large variety of functionally different weapons to choose from. How exciting that would be.

So I would love to see akimbo flintlocks be an option in the armory.

I imagine they would only take up one weapon slot and share identical stats with the single flintlock except akimbo flintlocks would be hip fire only and only one pistol can be reloaded at a time.

@jj-h816 Again the sword pales in comparison to double gunning blundy and sniper.

It just benefits the overall player base and skilled players worried about not getting to pile drive people of ANY skill, should rest assured if your skilled enough you can do it WITHOUT double gunning this way. It just should not be this easy.

@captaintibbz said in Pistol only double gun:

@jj-h816 no doubt, then the question really becomes what many other have said here which is the switch between all weapons.

Discount everything I'm suggesting from the beginning, this could also be solved by delay in switched depending on each weapon. Bigger delay if weilding the larger guns together.

I am fine with the “animation cancellation” being fixed but again I have never used it so it doesn’t change anything for me. But the sword suck HAS to be fixed

@jj-h816 NoNo No we All know that spawn killing would effectively be elimated without two handed gun double gunning sry bud.

@captaintibbz said in Pistol only double gun:

@jj-h816 that ok bro, I understand what your saying and agree somewhat with some sword stun stuff, then again I think the double gunning is a more pressing issue.

In the end both of us agree rare needs to balance something or the other.

Agreed but how would it change gameplay? Some changes have made things worse in my opinion.

If hit reg were less an issue I think pistol would be used more, but it’s not a bug it’s a feature lol. I HATE the sword but I have to deal with it… as people have to deal with Double gunners.