As this topic has had a substantial derailment from main point and has (mostly) had that derailment end up as personal attacks and harassment, we will go ahead and drop anchor on it here. Thank you.

@madfrito99 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@ottyman8687 do they please tell me what this means to you:

Ok I will then.

Harass, bully, intimidate, threaten or encourage others to do harm.

All bad things I agree.

None of these behaviours will be tolerated.

Good.

Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying.

Yes bullying is bad.

Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment.

Indeed it does.

Not only do we take these things very seriously, many law enforcement agencies recognise online abuse as an offence. If necessary, we will report incidents to the relevant authorities to take further action.

Alright.

this is the code of conduct for harassment. “any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying

Yup.

So what do I interpret it as? Exactly what is written there. Harassment, bullying, whatever is all bad. Yes it is.

The problem is that you don't seem to understand what they mean by it.

The game is Sea of THIEVES. It is PvPvE. That means part of the game is fighting and stealing from others and also getting attacked and stolen from.

If I sink someone and they come back and I sink them again, Im not bullying them. I'm not forcing them to come back. They brought it on themselves.

If I sink you while you are doing an Adventure or a Tall Tale, well, I just wanted to sink you. I don't need a reason to. If I know you will appear somewhere, your allowed to sit and wait. Sure it's probably not morally right to camp the KW, but it's not harassment.

Look at some other examples of your so-called bullying.

What if there's a Reaper in the server, so I get a big stack if kegs and rig the entire Reapers Hideout to blow up? Am I harassing them? If I can sink them I probably will have upset them. But I'm not a bully.

Or maybe I'm doing a FoF and someone turns up and I sink them. Then shortly after they re-appear. And I sink them again. I'm ruining the experience and stopping them accessing the fort, but I'm still not harassing them.

Let's go back to the Killer Whale now. If I sink you there and you come back, that's your fault. If I know you will appear there, I can rig the place to explode and steal all your supplies or whatever. Or even steal the Shrouded for myself. Again, I don't need a reason to sink you. Even if you have no loot, I'm not harassing you if I sink you. I'm playing the game as it was designed.

So in conclusion? Yes harassment and bullying is bad. I agree. But you need to realise that playing the game as a PvPvE SHARED WORLD ADVENTURE GAME, is not toxic, bullying or harassment. You are twisting the Code of Conduct to support your argument. It clearly means things like using offensive words, or sending inappropriate messages. And not sinking people.

This thread probably will be locked by tomorrow morning anyway. So this argument is a bit pointless. You don't seem to want to change your mind.

Anyway, this thread was about Alliance Servers and how they are bad (they are). So why are we now talking again about killing people doing the adventure

@madfrito99 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@dlchief58 your not answering my question…again. when you read that how do you interpert that

I answered you just fine, you just didn't like the answer and have no valid rebuttal so play dumb instead. Most of what you claim is "bullying and harassing" behavior is people PLAYING THE GAME AS DESIGNED...just not how YOU like them to play which quite frankly is irrelevant to anyone else outside your own crew. Maybe YOU should read what I wrote which explained it quite well.

And its you're not "your" FYI.

@dlchief58 your not answering my question…again. when you read that how do you interpert that

@madfrito99 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@ottyman8687 do they please tell me what this means to you:

Harass, bully, intimidate, threaten or encourage others to do harm. None of these behaviours will be tolerated. Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying. Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment. Not only do we take these things very seriously, many law enforcement agencies recognise online abuse as an offence. If necessary, we will report incidents to the relevant authorities to take further action.

this is the code of conduct for harassment. “any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying

im curious how you interperate that @dlCHIEF58 you too. how do you interperate this?

so if someone is intenionally camping the meg summoning locations and the killer whale it falls under this in code of conduct.

so please i ask how do yoy interperate this:

Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying. Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment

Boy you have an active imagination and an overblown victim complex.

Ambushing the adventure is not "bullying" in and of itself, nor can you prove that the intent is to "target or upset other players" unless their actions and words actually confirm this. If you can, then you have a case to report. Otherwise suck it up buttercup.

It is meant to be difficult and have the possibility to be interrupted by other players. You are in no way guaranteed still waters to complete ANY event or adventure within the Sea of Thieves...as designed by Rare. This does not fall under that definition you keep tossing around...it can IF they are actually doing things to harass or bully, such as relentless spawncamping, or being abusive in speech or text. But simply waiting in ambush to attack anyone coming that way is NOT harassment by any stretch of the imagination, people do not need a reason to attack and sink you regardless of your own self imposed code of conduct that does not apply to anyone else but you and your crew. Stating otherwise is showing your own entitlement issues.

Attacking someone just for the sake of attacking them is NOT toxic, bullying behavior by itself, even if it is a choke point in the game where you know people will visit. Perhaps underhanded and cheap, but we are playing a game about cutthroats and piracy (whether you acknowledge it or not). You need to get of your high horse already as you do not get to define what is toxic or bullying behavior for the most minor inconveniences. No matter how many times you cry about it doesn't make it any more true.

And I say this as a mostly peaceful, solo pirate, but one not afraid to defend myself when attacked or provoked...you should try it some time instead of whining.

@ottyman8687 Thank you for your opinion....

@ottyman8687 do they please tell me what this means to you:

Harass, bully, intimidate, threaten or encourage others to do harm. None of these behaviours will be tolerated. Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying. Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment. Not only do we take these things very seriously, many law enforcement agencies recognise online abuse as an offence. If necessary, we will report incidents to the relevant authorities to take further action.

this is the code of conduct for harassment. “any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying

im curious how you interperate that @dlCHIEF58 you too. how do you interperate this?

so if someone is intenionally camping the meg summoning locations and the killer whale it falls under this in code of conduct.

so please i ask how do yoy interperate this:

Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying. Repeated activity designed to ruin the experience of another player or crew constitutes harassment

@thagoochiestman said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@alienmagi said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@thagoochiestman said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@alienmagi you mean games where it's 100% clear that the goal of the game is to kill the other players? Do you actually think that's a good argument..?

As the post you're replying to said: they're spawn-camping a location solely for the purpose of ruining someone's mission/adventure. Not even remotely the same as killing someone in Team Deathmatch.

Its 100% clear that one of the goals in this game is to sink other players. What part of "pvpve" isnt clear to you? Its exactly the same as killing in deathmatch games, pvp is encouraged and you dont owe it to anyone to not attack them.

One of the goals. Exactly. Whereas a game like Call of Duty doesn't have missions/activities like SoT, so PvP is really the only "goal."

You cant spawn on the killer whale as far as I know, so why are you talking about spawn camping?

Sorry! They're just camping the event location (to prevent people from completing it). I misspoke, my greatest apologies.

The vast majority of people who will sink you near the killer whale arent doing it to "ruin your fun, they do it to pvp. If your fun is ruined by pvp you're clearly playing the wrong game.

If they're camping at the event, killing players who simply want to complete the event (and presumably enjoy it), how is it not ruining their time?

Exactly, so how is one of the main goals of the game called "bullying" and "harassment" now?

"Ruining someone's time" is completely subjective. I can say that someone is ruining my fun just because they didn't want to alliance with me. That is just one of the reasons why this argument doesn't have any substance.

Also, fending off other pirates is part of the challenge of completing the shrouded deep adventure. I don't understand why everyone feels entitled to do the event without getting attacked by pirates in a pirate game. It's supposed to be a challenge. If you can't beat them you can simply hop the server, your effigies will save and you can find people who are already waiting to summon the shrouded ghost, which is why Rare added a huge beacon in the sky to help you with this.

@ottyman8687 Its a PvEvP game, if people decide to group up and not engage in PvP no amount of crying on the forums will suddenly make rare knee-jerk and stop people from playing together. Deal with it

@alienmagi said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@thagoochiestman said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@alienmagi you mean games where it's 100% clear that the goal of the game is to kill the other players? Do you actually think that's a good argument..?

As the post you're replying to said: they're spawn-camping a location solely for the purpose of ruining someone's mission/adventure. Not even remotely the same as killing someone in Team Deathmatch.

Its 100% clear that one of the goals in this game is to sink other players. What part of "pvpve" isnt clear to you? Its exactly the same as killing in deathmatch games, pvp is encouraged and you dont owe it to anyone to not attack them.

One of the goals. Exactly. Whereas a game like Call of Duty doesn't have missions/activities like SoT, so PvP is really the only "goal."

You cant spawn on the killer whale as far as I know, so why are you talking about spawn camping?

Sorry! They're just camping the event location (to prevent people from completing it). I misspoke, my greatest apologies.

The vast majority of people who will sink you near the killer whale arent doing it to "ruin your fun, they do it to pvp. If your fun is ruined by pvp you're clearly playing the wrong game.

If they're camping at the event, killing players who simply want to complete the event (and presumably enjoy it), how is it not ruining their time?

@thagoochiestman said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@alienmagi you mean games where it's 100% clear that the goal of the game is to kill the other players? Do you actually think that's a good argument..?

As the post you're replying to said: they're spawn-camping a location solely for the purpose of ruining someone's mission/adventure. Not even remotely the same as killing someone in Team Deathmatch.

Its 100% clear that one of the goals in this game is to sink other players. What part of "pvpve" isnt clear to you? Its exactly the same as killing in deathmatch games, pvp is encouraged and you dont owe it to anyone to not attack them.

You cant spawn on the killer whale as far as I know, so why are you talking about spawn camping?

The vast majority of people who will sink you near the killer whale arent doing it to "ruin your fun, they do it to pvp. If your fun is ruined by pvp you're clearly playing the wrong game.

@ottyman8687 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@magus104 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

Though now there is the maiden voyage at least, not sure how many new players actually do it though.

I'm pretty sure it's mandatory.

Players can stop the Maiden Voyage any time and play Adventure without finishing it.

@thagoochiestman said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@alienmagi you mean games where it's 100% clear that the goal of the game is to kill the other players? Do you actually think that's a good argument..?

As the post you're replying to said: they're spawn-camping a location solely for the purpose of ruining someone's mission/adventure. Not even remotely the same as killing someone in Team Deathmatch.

You seem confused here. Camping the location and spawn-camping are two entirely different topics. Setting an ambush at a visible beacon is NOT toxic behavior in and of itself...PERIOD. Spawn-camping CAN be toxic, but only under specific instances such as doing so just for the sake of it. Other times it is an unavoidable consequence of having limited spawn points in a limited space on a ship while off-loading loot, emptying supplies or making sure a ship sinks - those are all called playing the game as designed.

No one needs a reason to sink someone else so can the victim act. Just because they "ruined your fun" is not a definition of toxic as that likely was not the intent, and you don't know most of the time but project your own hurt feelings to justify this absurd claim. I'm not saying it doesn't happen (as I have been on the receiving end of such behavior, which was caught on video and reported to Rare as they made the mistake of doing so (and admitting it, LOL) while I was streaming my gameplay), but it is not a common thing for the most part. Believe me, most of the time when you are being attacked and sunk the aggressor doesn't give a flip about your "feelings" or "fun", they are just playing the game and having their own fun.

@magus104 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

Honestly they just need to add PvE servers.

No they don't. It will ruin the game.

Problem solved.

No you made it worse. Now you can't play Sea of Thieves. You can play Sea of Friends or Sea of Death.

I think the big misconception is when people here PvE they think single player.

I think having a server where players cant hurt each other but give a gold and rep income penalty for playing in a fully PvE environment to incentivize people to play normally.

A good penalty would be 100% gold and rep reduction. People should play Sea of Thieves and not a game that they want it to be.

They could also disable alliances on these servers so the gold and rep sharing wont be a thing which is probably the biggest broken aspect of alliance servers.

As is the paid access things, ability to get now meaningless titles, stacks of cash all in a risk-free environment that is not how the game is designed.

Sometimes I just want a chill PvE experience where im safe to go take a poo without worrying about losing 2 hours of progress.

Well just be vigilant.

Rare has this notion that the only way you can have positive player interaction is if everyone can attack or betray you at any moment.

Well yes you can. That's why it's fun. Do you trust or betray them? That's what the game is about. PvE servers would make it guaranteed the other guy will be friendly or evil.

The option to be hostile but choose to be friendly is what the love about the game. But its like maybe 2% of player encounters that are positive.

So what?

Which is why they tried forcing people to have to work together in all the updates of year 1 via the hungering deep, skeleton thrones etc.

Yeah and?

And why they added the alliance system which now gets exploited like crazy.

Yes it does get exploited.

In the very least I think they should make tall tales something you can do on PvE servers

No. Do them in the SHARED WORLD PVPVE game like the rest of us.

because they are tedious enough without needing to worry about getting sunk.

Well why are you doing them then? If you aren't having fun do something else.

Not that I need them but I always try to view things from the perspective of the new player experience.
Like the number of people who just perma quit the game because their very first log in they set sail and get kraken and sink and have no idea what happened. Uninstall, never comes back.

And...? If someone isn't going to preserve through that sort of thing, chances are they'll be quitting soon anyway. Anyway how would PvE servers solve that? You could get Kraken'd again in a PvE server surely?

Though now there is the maiden voyage at least, not sure how many new players actually do it though.

I'm pretty sure it's mandatory.

In terms of the leader board... Who cares?

Quite a few people actually.

Its kinda meaningless.

To you maybe.

I imagine the top few are probably on alliance servers

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

but either way its about who has less of a life and spends more time playing. You dont even need an alliance server to exploit like that.

Yes you do.

Just know how the servers work. Stack loot all night till the ledger reset happens. Then cash in.

Ok....now you are ahead for about 3 hours before the grinders sell their 10 FotD stacked Reaper loot and overtake you by a factor of 100.

No Alliance Servers

No PvE servers

Only PvPvE servers.

The end

@thagoochiestman said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@alienmagi you mean games where it's 100% clear that the goal of the game is to kill the other players? Do you actually think that's a good argument..?

It being discussed in the context of a game where it is 100% clear it involves killing and being killed by other players.

@alienmagi you mean games where it's 100% clear that the goal of the game is to kill the other players? Do you actually think that's a good argument..?

As the post you're replying to said: they're spawn-camping a location solely for the purpose of ruining someone's mission/adventure. Not even remotely the same as killing someone in Team Deathmatch.

Honestly they just need to add PvE servers. Problem solved. I think the big misconception is when people here PvE they think single player.

I think having a server where players cant hurt each other but give a gold and rep income penalty for playing in a fully PvE environment to incentivize people to play normally. They could also disable alliances on these servers so the gold and rep sharing wont be a thing which is probably the biggest broken aspect of alliance servers. Sometimes I just want a chill PvE experience where im safe to go take a poo without worrying about losing 2 hours of progress. Rare has this notion that the only way you can have positive player interaction is if everyone can attack or betray you at any moment. The option to be hostile but choose to be friendly is what the love about the game. But its like maybe 2% of player encounters that are positive. Which is why they tried forcing people to have to work together in all the updates of year 1 via the hungering deep, skeleton thrones etc. And why they added the alliance system which now gets exploited like crazy.

In the very least I think they should make tall tales something you can do on PvE servers because they are tedious enough without needing to worry about getting sunk. Not that I need them but I always try to view things from the perspective of the new player experience. Like the number of people who just perma quit the game because their very first log in they set sail and get kraken and sink and have no idea what happened. Uninstall, never comes back. Though now there is the maiden voyage at least, not sure how many new players actually do it though.

In terms of the leader board... Who cares? Its kinda meaningless. I imagine the top few are probably on alliance servers but either way its about who has less of a life and spends more time playing. You dont even need an alliance server to exploit like that. Just know how the servers work. Stack loot all night till the ledger reset happens. Then cash in. Ive never understood people who care about leader boards. Thats like 80s arcade machine end game goals when achievements and cosmetic collections didnt exist lol

@mechamusume1226 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@ottyman8687
Imagine buying a PvEvP game then whining when people enjoy PvE more.

Did you seriously create a forum account just to say that?

I'm not whining about anyone enjoying PvE more. I'm saying that this is a PvPvE game which means you must experience both PvP and PvE.

Alliance Servers, which this thread is about, provide access to unlimited free gold and rep gains from PvE alone. Not PvPvE.

@madfrito99 said in Fundamental reasons why alliance servers are in fact an issue for everyone:

@ottyman8687 so basically what your saying is you dont care what the code of conduct says? got it. so then you are exactly the problem lol and again i am speaking up for others when it comes to this adventure in particular so please stop trying to twist things

No basically what I'm saying is that the Code of Conduct does not state that I can't sink you if you are doing the adventure.

You have made it up.

Harassing and bullying is against the Code. But sinking you while you try to do an Adventure is not harassment

@madfrito99 Agreed that this was not the most well thought through event since it requires cooperation. I wasn't playing during the Hungering Deep, but I've heard that it had similar things happen. So, as you said, either Rare didn't learn anything from that event...or they just don't care...or that's supposed to be part of the design. I've not heard them say one way or the other on what their stance is on the topic or what their stance was back in the Hungering Deep days.

I was fortunate enough to get this event done with minimal drama and had a great time. I love PvP in SOT. It's my favorite part of the game. Being in it for the loot is one thing, but camping a co-op location for the sake of sinking people and preventing the loot from ever spawning is...well...sad, really...but, not surprising. Again, some people suck.

Hopefully, if Rare decides to introduce any additional events that require multiple crews, they will have learned from the feedback provided by the community and make some alterations to future events.

@sweetsandman the issue is this is happening to alot of people (didnt happen to me as i did it in an alliance server). in this case just capturing the incident is least of worries. this exact thing happened in the hungering event. they know it happens yet they did it again. so either they are just oblivious or they just dont care. seems to me they just dont care. not everybody streams or is on pc to capture video. it shouldnt be all on us

@madfrito99 Unfortunately, part of the problem is proving that people are out to ruin the experience and go against the code of conduct...especially if they are doing it without any form of communication. I reckon that unless you're capturing your entire gameplay session and/or streaming, it would be incredibly difficult to prove it with a 30/45/60 second clip submitted to Rare. That sounds terrible, but it's true. Welcome to online gaming. Some people suck.