[Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion

@captainskandalf

Players don't sink ships, water sinks ships. There I said it..

It is impossible to track how a ship sank in nearly all cases.

Just another trolls paradise this bounty system..

@wagstr
To my knowledge ship doesn't magically spawn with water in it. Someone made the holes to the ship am i right? Doesn't sound too impossible to track who used said cannon or who light up the explosive keg. Since the game tracks all sorts of commendations and kills already. IT even tracks if you've sunk a ship. That's an actual commendation you can complete.

@captainskandalf said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@wagstr
To my knowledge ship doesn't magically spawn with water in it. Someone made the holes to the ship am i right? Doesn't sound too impossible to track. Since the game tracks all sorts of commendations and kills already. IT even tracks if you've sunk a ship. That's an actual commendation you can complete.

I'll explain...

Say I am a griefer or just want to mess with you okay, what is to stop me doing any of the following. I have used extreme examples to make the point I have to add but you can see they grey areas if you think about it...

I let my own ship fill up with water to the point of nearly sinking in a storm or by not bucketing after a meg chomp or two, I then set myself on fire and stand on my deck looking forlorn. Some kind hearted soul throws a couple of buckets of water on me to put me out and my ship sinks.

I roll up to another ship at an island, fire a cannon shot over their bow (on purpose) at a skelly captain on the beach behind and they return one cannon ball before they realise I wasn't shooting at them. I stand on my deck slow clapping them and not bucketing or trying to save my ship as it slowly fills up with water and sinks over a five minute period.

A ship comes out of a storm with 12" of water already in the bottom deck and meets a skelly ship and a player ship. Both end up firing on it. The crew are not very efficient at bucketing and fixing and soon the ship sinks. If the crew had fixed and bucketed properly they would probably not have sunk but at some point that final 'unit' of water or 'the straw that broke the camels back' if you like, sinks the ship. Does the sink count for the storm, the crews inability to bucket and fix properly, the skelly ship or the player ship? The player ship only fired because the first ship aimed at the skelly and missed hitting them instead by the way.

Another forum member had an incident where some griefers in a sloop were chasing her and her crewmate on a brig across the map while shouting r*pe threats and sexist bile at them. If they had turned round and attacked after being chased for 30 mins like this would they would have been the aggressor?

It will just promote more PvP and server hopping if anything.. PvE players will server hop to find less aggressive players and PvPers will server hop to find passive farmers and because you can't hop loot everybody would be poorer except the people who just want to sink sheep and don't care about the loot because they will be having a field day!

Most players are happy the way things are. Why punish people for being pirates and reward them for being Mahatma Ghandi in a pirate video game?

More examples could follow but surely you see my drift..

@wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@captainskandalf said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@wagstr
To my knowledge ship doesn't magically spawn with water in it. Someone made the holes to the ship am i right? Doesn't sound too impossible to track. Since the game tracks all sorts of commendations and kills already. IT even tracks if you've sunk a ship. That's an actual commendation you can complete.

I'll explain...

Say I am a griefer or just want to mess with you okay, what is to stop me doing any of the following. I have used extreme examples to make the point I have to add but you can see they grey areas if you think about it...

I let my own ship fill up with water to the point of nearly sinking in a storm or by not bucketing after a meg chomp or two, I then set myself on fire and stand on my deck looking forlorn. Some kind hearted soul throws a couple of buckets of water on me to put me out and my ship sinks.

I roll up to another ship at an island, fire a cannon shot over their bow (on purpose) at a skelly captain on the beach behind and they return one cannon ball before they realise I wasn't shooting at them. I stand on my deck slow clapping them and not bucketing or trying to save my ship as it slowly fills up with water and sinks over a five minute period.

A ship comes out of a storm with 12" of water already in the bottom deck and meets a skelly ship and a player ship. Both end up firing on it. The crew are not very efficient at bucketing and fixing and soon the ship sinks. If the crew had fixed and bucketed properly they would probably not have sunk but at some point that final 'unit' of water or 'the straw that broke the camels back' if you like, sinks the ship. Does the sink count for the storm, the crews inability to bucket and fix properly, the skelly ship or the player ship? The player ship only fired because the first ship aimed at the skelly and missed hitting them instead by the way.

Another forum member had an incident where some griefers in a sloop were chasing her and her crewmate on a brig across the map while shouting r*pe threats and sexist bile at them. If they had turned round and attacked after being chased for 30 mins like this would they would have been the aggressor?

It will just promote more PvP and server hopping if anything.. PvE players will server hop to find less aggressive players and PvPers will server hop to find passive farmers and because you can't hop loot everybody would be poorer except the people who just want to sink sheep and don't care about the loot because they will be having a field day!

Most players are happy the way things are. Why punish people for being pirates and reward them for being Mahatma Ghandi in a pirate video game?

More examples could follow but surely you see my drift..

And what isn't a trolls paradise in an open world game?
The whole game is that.
Or have you never been in an open crew where your random own crew mate keeps pulling anchor to troll. Or takes the wheel and rams every rock and island they see to sink their own ship, just to troll. You can't make game systems based on trolls, cause they will find a way.

As was explained later being the aggressor doesn't determine if you get a bounty. Sinking a ship does. So your first and second attempt at trolling is valid, but are you really gonna go around doing just that. Or even more so are you going to chase one ship in a session doing that same thing over and over. Till they become a marked bounty on the map. Do consider what i said in my last post that you might have to sink about 12 ships to make someone visible on the map and have a bounty of 50k. If you manage to do that once, clap, but once the person sees you coming again boat full of water waiting to be sank, doubt they just keep throwing buckets of water at you. And so what if someone gets a 1k bounty on them. Nobody will know that, unless they sink their ship. Most likely the one you trolled will gather their own bounty much faster than you can sink your own boat by just being regular pirates and attacking others. The last slur example.. I'd actually report that brig cause that's against ToS, people get suspended for that. You don't need to turn around sink them. You report them.

For the skelly, player, storm.. Question.
Did the crew manage to repair the hit done by the player ship.
If not, player ship was part of the sinking.
If they repaired the hit done by players, they didn't sink because of players, but mainly the other stuff.
They gain 1 fraction of the bounty level you would get by aggressing and sinking normally. Same rules apply.
It's a sea of accidents can happen. Learn to aim your shots.
However if that happens one time, it doesn't make you a bounty target. It gives you a portion of level 1 bounty, not full bounty.
Until you get a full level, the bounty is set on you. Accidents can happen and you will not be punished for it.

And btw they already do that server hopping. If you haven't noticed. That's all they can do now.

@captainskandalf

A crews inability or refusal to fix and bucket sinks ships, that final unit of water on top of what is already in there sinks ships, the straw that breaks the camels back as I said. Bounty system is a silly idea in a game with six ships per server and the almost 100% certainty you will never see those players again.

I don't do open crews for precisely the reasons you state but imagine if you were an open crew and get a bounty, does the bounty apply to the ship or the crew? Does the bounty follow the open crew members to subsequent open crews? are the rest of the new open crew subject to this bounty too? It's ridiculous.

@wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@captainskandalf

A crews inability or refusal to fix and bucket sinks ships, that final unit of water on top of what is already in there sinks ships, the straw that breaks the camels back as I said. Bounty system is a silly idea in a game with six ships per server and the almost 100% certainty you will never see those players again.

That's why the bounty carries over sessions, it matters what you did last session in a sense. You can't just be an ***hole in another session and jesus in the next one. Well you can but it will cost you the bailout, bounty expiring or sinking. Choice is yours. You don't need to see the same players again. The bounty system is there to let others, the new players have a slight idea what kind of player you are. If they don't see a bounty on you. They don't know anything about you. You might have a small bounty or no bounty. They can find out by killing and sinking you, but then they start getting a bounty on them for doing so. That's the risk if you want to find out. Or they can be high level bounty seen on the map, warning others they're the real deal, they're the best pirate on the seas. They've never been sunk and their ship is heading straight at you on the map. If you see a reaper ship on the map heading at you when you dug up a chest what do you do? But what if you see a grade 5 bounty whose rank leaderboard rank is worldwide #1 coming at you on the map after you've digged up an Athena chest. What do you do? They are coming to sink you. Do you just log out and leave the Athena? Do you try to run and hide? Do you try and fight them? What if they are world #1 and they come at you and suddenly they get krakened and you somehow help the kraken sink them. Now you have an Athena chest to sell and a grade 5 bounty to sell worth 250k gold. What do you do?

I don't do open crews for precisely the reasons you state but imagine if you were an open crew and get a bounty, does the bounty apply to the ship or the crew? Does the bounty follow the open crew members to subsequent open crews? are the rest of the new open crew subject to this bounty too? It's ridiculous.

Yes the bounty follows you, but in an open crew the overall ship bounty is always the average sum of the entire crew. So if you have a galleon with 3 players who are bounty grade 0, meaning they are no bounty and one player with grade 5 bounty. The ships bounty would be 1,25, so basically 1. Your ships worth in bounty is now 1000g if it sinks. not 250k. If you don't want even the 1000g bounty on the ship, brig the grade 5 bounty player and tell them you don't want them on the crew cause their bounty is too high. They can leave and find a new crew, they can bail their bounty to zero in an outpost and keep playing, they can sit in the brig locked up trolling like the usual trolls do now. If they are in brig they don't count towards the ship bounty at all. Basically meaning the other crew members conducted a mutiny against said high bounty player.

@captainskandalf

Seems like a lot of kerfuffle to me. I would say good luck on your crusade but really wouldn't mean it, hope it never sees the light of day.. Fair winds to ye anyway!

@captainskandalf

Your argument is that because I join for a PvP Crew, the next time I log on when I go solo I should have my ship marked on the map...

When I go out with my experienced friends and we sink some ships, the next time I log on and help a brand new player... they have to deal with the consequences of my actions?

You want to place monetary value on the buy out option of the consequences, while the PvP might not have been lucrative. That will negatively impact people with less money. You have 25 million others are happy if they have enough to buy sails. Also, if you enjoy a fight every so often... what is the use of paying off your bounty, in 2 days you have it again anyway.

Why would an average player be at rank 0-3? Sorry, but that makes no sense to me at all. If it travels with you from session to session, if you are capable of defending yourself or like to battle every so often you will just rank up and up. How many ships on average you sink in a session is irrelevant as you accumulate it over multiple sessions. It is just going to be do you sink often or don't you. Play well and you will broadcast your position to everyone all the time, better be ready to PVP... period.

You want to have negotiations and diplomacy, but you also want a system that always rewards you for sinking players. Sorry, but if I get something out of sinking you guaranteed... I will be sinking you more often than not. You ask why people want to be a diplomat? Because it saves time, there is nothing to gain and it might be in the best interest of the players to hash out a deal where they can just do their tasks, move on and not slaughter each other. Maybe let live now and hope you come across them later when they have some treasure?

Where is the balance out the worth of each ship on the seas... how is it balanced that my ship is worth more because I was on a killing spree with a crew and now I am a solo sloop but with a 50k bounty on my head? I earned that bounty with a coordinated team of veteran players, a far more challenging and difficult bounty to claim than when the next time I am by myself or with a bunch of noobs that didn't even help gain that bounty. You act like my crew is always the same, that my actions are mine alone and the decision to kill and plunder is solely upon my shoulders.

I have buddies that want to stack loot, I have buddies that just seek to sink others and steal. Do you think my loot stacking brethren will be happy if I come in with a rank 5 bounty on my head? They don't fear PvP, but they don't necessarily want to be marked on the map for not sinking or because some of them had a fun night of PvP the day before.

You have addressed literally zero of the points I bring up, regarding why my actions with a different crew or by myself should permanently mark me on the seas. How would this promote me not just killing and slaughtering anyone, I am going to be permanently marked anyway so... I should stop playing varied and just be bloodthirsty 100% of the time.

I and many others that enjoy PVP from time to time won't stop doing so, because some mark. If I cannot get rid of the mark, I am going to own it with all my might. Negotiations... nah never again and I make currently quite a bit of truces and deals when people try to talk to me. I appreciate those that go for the diplomatic route on the seas, it is a nice change of pace between the murder and running.

There is no balance, the PVE will have a low level, everyone else will just slaughter everyone they see. They are bound to get to rank 5 anyway, so why not just collect as much of the PVP bounties and stop negotiations, sinking someone is always going to be worth it.

@captainskandalf said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

(...) Yes the bounty follows you, but in an open crew the overall ship bounty is always the average sum of the entire crew. So if you have a galleon with 3 players who are bounty grade 0, meaning they are no bounty and one player with grade 5 bounty. The ships bounty would be 1,25, so basically 1. Your ships worth in bounty is now 1000g if it sinks. not 250k. If you don't want even the 1000g bounty on the ship, brig the grade 5 bounty player and tell them you don't want them on the crew cause their bounty is too high. They can leave and find a new crew, they can bail their bounty to zero in an outpost and keep playing, they can sit in the brig locked up trolling like the usual trolls do now. If they are in brig they don't count towards the ship bounty at all. Basically meaning the other crew members conducted a mutiny against said high bounty player.

So, when a ship is about the sink, the crew can brig their highest ranked pirate and make the bounty for the winner a lot less ?

@cotu42
So you're saying you play every day enough for the bounty constantly racking up?
That's why i asked what the average amount of ships sunk in a session is. So it can be tuned.

Let's say it's 6 ships sunk grant you grade 1 bounty. Which you can instantly get rid off paying 250 gold at bounty level 1. As said your bounty is 1000g for the enemy to cash in for example and bailout 25% 250g for you to pay not to have the bounty. Even in the exponential system if grade 5 bounty is 250k your bailout is 62500. If you're grade 5 bounty and you've sunk 6x5 to level it up which is 30 ships, think you've made some gold from that. From stolen treasure, other bounties. whatever.. to pay out that 62500 to remove the bounty if you suddenly have change of heart and want to go full pve.

On top of that the bounty is degrading naturally and expiring. You're forgetting this. It doesn't just go up and up and up. It goes up down up down up up up down down up. Depending how much you keep sinking ships. It doesn't just exponentially add to ships you've sunk. It resets, when a player sinks you, when you bailout or currently what the idea is after 24 hours after each kill/sunk ship.

If a ship you sunk, the bounty for that exact ship expires in 24 hours. You need to keep sinking 30 ships every single day of the year to keep you at grade 5 bounty constantly every day, since the ship you sank yesterday that bounty value expires after 24 hours is up when that exact ship sunk. Show me the average player who keeps sinking 30 ships a day, without them sinking themselves, cause once you've been sunk by a player your bounty is zero. And that is if you play SoT every day of the week. Most people don't, so their bounty is expired anyway if they have a day off from the game.

Just an idea if you don't want to have a max level bounty on you.
Well maybe you don't go sinking like 30 ships every day. If you sink 6 ships a day you'll maintain bounty level 1. It doesn't magically refresh unless you keep sinking ships constantly. Every ship is their own entity in the grade system. If you sink 3 ships one day, you're grade 0 still. Tomorrow you play again, within the same 24 hours before those yesterdays 3 ships expire and you sink 3 more ships you get 6 ships and bounty level 1, once the previous 24 hours is up, your ship count is again 3, well you didn't sink 3 ships at the same time, so they expire one at a time. But let's say you don't sink anymore in that 24 hour period and then if you then sink 2 more it's 5. Then you take a full day off the game it's back to 0. Then next day you sink 30 ships, you get grade 5. Next day 30 ships you keep grade 5, then next day you're sick in bed, no playing. Back to grade 0. Each sunk ship has their own expiration timer. You need to keep basically sinking 30 ships in 24 hours to keep the grade 5 going. That's with these numbers now. If it 20 ships per 24 hours then it's less you have to kill and so on. I don't have final numbers for you what's the best solution cause this idea is like 2 days old. It's evolving. You really have to be efficient at sinking ships and not sinking yourself to reach 30 ships a in 24 hours. Those are example numbers. 30 ships in a day to reach grade 5, everyday.. Who are you? Even if it's 20 ships a day to keep up the grade 5, that's a lot to me. If you do that you've earned to be seen. As you go forward in time, the degrading happens constantly and older bounty ships sunk expire from your bounty automatically, they last 24 hours and that's it. If you sink 6 ships every day you keep grade 1 bounty on you every day. But you're not visible on the map, no one knows that you have the bounty unless they sink you cause it's so low bounty it's not broadcasted anywhere, only way to find out is to sink you. If you're sunk they've won 1000g from doing that. Let's say grade 4 bounty is the point when you become visible on the map and for grade 3 there's a wooden board in front of every tavern where it says your name and that you have a grade 3 bounty. No one knows where you are, but they know there's a level 3 bounty on the server. They can hunt and search, but since it's still a low bounty it's not marked. Maybe your ship has a special flag on like the emissary one but you have to see it to know. Maybe that's too much. I don't know.
Maybe if you're grade 2 you're listed on the wooden board, nothing more. Grade 0 and 1 nobody knows who you are. Grade 2 gets listed that server has this bounty, but no location, nothing. Grade 3 your ship gets a flag on it, if you see the flag you'll know who the grade 3 is. Level 4 you're marked on the map, no other info. Grade 5 you're marked on the map, it shows your ship type and world leaderboard ranks. And to get there you need to sink 30 ships in 24 hours and keep sinking 30 ships every 24 hours to keep it up. If you don't your grade falls down. Full day off the game you're grade zero, one day with 29 sinks you're grade 4 and so on.

Show me the player who does that and that they do that accidentally and don't want the bounty on them and don't understand how the system works and keep sinking 30 ships day and wonder why everyone keeps trying to sink them.

The point where you and your experienced friends sink a bunch of ships and gain a high bounty one day then you log in and want to help a new player. Well you had some fun last time didn't you, you caused some mayhem and maybe got grade 4 bounty on you. You want to help a brand new player. Few options, the sea remembers your actions, you earned 350k yesterday from loot and bounties you did when you sank 24 ships yesterday, some of them must had loot on cause so much gold. Now you want to help, but you have grade 4 100k bounty on you. Help your friend with the bounty, until someone comes and sinks you. Risky business tagging along a known pirate. Keep helping, your bounty is off since you sank. Bailout when logging in to outpost straight away, this is a pve session to teach, but you had some mayhem last session. You reached grade 4 with the pro crew. holy moly, well done. Bailout is 25k, aren't you glad you earned 350k yesterday by stealing it from 24 ships.. Easy peezy chump change for you, pay it and help your new friend, no bounties on you.

Point, if you manage to sink 6 ships for grade 1 and have a 1000g bounty on you, you're saying you didn't loot any gold to pay 250 g to get rid of the bounty. Or if you sank 24 ships without sinking yourself that you can't afford 25k gold. If you can't tough luck you live with the bounty. The whole point of the system. No one who started yesterday will get grade 4 bounty on them and have to pay 25k to remove it. They are glad if they get bounty level 1 with the system. And it's 25k boohoo.. You must have made that much gold in your days if you're good enough to sink 24 ships in a row without sinking yourself. It's not a punishment it's a price of being "famous" pirate that others want out of their way. You don't want to be the famous pirate today, you earned yesterday. Tough luck, but there are options as said to remove it.

As far as bounties I never liked the idea of an automated one. I do not want the game to determine bounties. I think it would be too iffy. Lets say a ship goes to attack you but misses and you attack back and hit and sink them, why in the world should you get a bounty? What if a ship is chasing and harassing you and you decide to attack and sink them (ive had this happen on a few occasions) why should you get a bounty? In a PvPvE game why should anyone get a automated bounty for PvPing? I dont care if they sink 5 ships a week or 50 a week it just seems odd.

I think a bounty system would only work if lets say you get sunk and then can go to Duke and it will show the name of the last ship who sunk you. From there you yourself get to set a bounty of lets say between 10k, 20k or 30k gold, you can choose depending on how appealing you want it to be to others. That bounty then only lasts like 24 in game hours and if no one sinks them you get a refund minus like 1k gold Duke takes as a fee. I think this would be the most fair, simple and clean way of doing a bounty system. I mean sure some salty tryhard can waste their gold and set a bounty on you if they are tooshie hurt about losing but atleast its not automated.

I think people would only go out of their way and do this if the ship who sunk them was a particular jerk or like I said a tooshie hurt tryhard but this way you have the choice to set a bounty. I would not want to not have that choice because sometimes I have had ship fights that were fun and no hard feelings at the end, I would not want the other ship to get a bounty. Lets be honest not everyone who gets into a fight and sunk is salty about it and wants the game to take retribution on their behalf.

@captainskandalf

Ship 1 puts 6 cannon holes into ship 2 at an outpost, ship 3 rolls up and puts another two in. Ship 2 sinks. Who gets the bounty on their head?

@combatxkitty
Problem with player controlled bounties is they are highly vulnerable to misuse and harassment. Well automated system can be trolled too, but i'd see more problems with anything player controlled without moderation. Don't get me wrong i'd prefer the system be player controlled, cause then you can set the bounties you desire on the people that annoyed you. Automated one or game controlled one doesn't discriminate who you are. If a ship is harassing you or attacks but misses, and you hit and sink them. Point of the system described was accidents happen, you don't get automatic bounty for one kill. For a bounty to become active it requires 6 ships sunk to be sunk in 24 hour period, that doesn't happen accidentally. Or if it does your very unlucky or extremely talented in pvp without trying.

@wagstr

No straight bounty, both attacking ships get a 1/6 mark on their bounty level, but if they both do that to 5 other boats they both get the bounty.

If the ship number 1 for example doesn't sink anymore ships after that nothing happens to them.
If the ship number 2 goes on and sinks 5 more ships they get a bounty for having 6/6 marks on their grade 1 bounty level.

If ship number 1 has sunk 5 other ships before that outpost ship. They get bounty then.
And ship number 2 has not sink anything before the outpost ship.
They get 1/6 mark, but no bounty, they need to sink 5 more ships to get a bounty.

@captainskandalf

Once again, why should my crews choices reflect upon the next session? Why should a crew or member that was PvPing previously be punished for it when they want to go PvE?

How is it fair that a bounty gathered with a 4 man crew of veterans is placed upon a solo ship and attracts the PvP associated with it? Is that balanced?

How does a system that punishes people for playing more be considered a good system? By your standards if someone plays in the weekend and is bloodthirsty, they get to reset the next time they play... but the person that plays daily doesn't?

The people that are good at the game just have to suffer punishments from the system by either attracting consistent PvP or spending money, while those that aren't as good do not?

Why would this only apply to PvP crews? If a PvE crew is successful and earns tons of cash, they don't have to pay a fee to swap their roles the next time they play. They will even be able to have nearly no bounty and bring nothing to the fight... but a PvP crew that switches it up brings double the risk?

Frankly if you want to have people marked on the map based on their choices in the game, then it should reflect upon the crew that made those choices. A solo sloop even if they were in the previous session part of a PvP crew is not the same challenge as the crew that is now responsible for marking them on the map for more PvP action.

This isn't balanced, it is telling people that enjoy PvP... to keep killing on sight, you are now marked so play the role. Want to switch it up, though luck there is a penalty fee. It isn't about whether you can afford it or not, PvP should not be given a tax to pay when they want to go PvE. The system shouldn't punish people that play one side of the coin.

It doesn't promote negotiation or friendly encounters, it promotes to make a more hardcore split in styles. If you like fighting, you should just commit to it and own it. I like the emissary system, as it adds values to ships, it rewards both sides of battle and promotes hoarding more treasure on board. The system you want is one sided, it punishes those with varied approaches.

@captainskandalf said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@combatxkitty
Problem with player controlled bounties is they are highly vulnerable to misuse and harassment. Well automated system can be trolled too, but i'd see more problems with anything player controlled without moderation. Don't get me wrong i'd prefer the system be player controlled, cause then you can set the bounties you desire on the people that annoyed you. Automated one or game controlled one doesn't discriminate who you are. If a ship is harassing you or attacks but misses, and you hit and sink them. Point of the system described was accidents happen, you don't get automatic bounty for one kill. For a bounty to become active it requires 6 ships sunk to be sunk in 24 hour period, that doesn't happen accidentally. Or if it does your very unlucky or extremely talented in pvp without trying.

The thing is with the set bounty is you only get to set it on a ship who sunk you so that there curbs harassment as you do not get a list of whoever. I will say as a mainly PvE'er I do not get into many altercations at all so I would not be worried about being harassed by a set bounty system. If I did get into an altercation and sink someone well sure they could set a bounty but its up in the air as to whether they would go through the time and waste the gold. I play a game with player set bounties and its actually super easy and cheap to set and I make lots of people mad at me in that game and its still very rare I get a bounty on me.

I think your auto bounty system is more thought out and fair than others ive seen posted here but I dont know, still the thought of a PvPvE game auto placing bounties for PvP'ing doesnt sit well with me. SOT encourages PvP, why punish people for it? PvPing is not griefing after all. Even if someone sinks six ships what is really the big deal?

Actually this kinda reminds me of GTAO and bad sports lobby. That game sends people to "bad sports" for too much PvP'ing or too many reports when that game encourages PvP'ing and I would go as far to say with that one encourages actual griefing and makes it easy for people and even makes money off of it. I dont like it when games try to police behavior they encourage, seems totally two faced. I also do not like games making choices on my behalf, I can handle being sunk, no need to add to someones bounty count.

@wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@GtotheFo

The benefit from selling loot automatically goes to the person who originally picked it up unless handed over voluntarily by that person picking it up and dropping it on the ship of another or by being literally handed over. So you can steal and turn in my loot, it will just save me time.

• First and foremost sorry, it's nobody's loot until it's turned in..

But...

• If a tucker waits for you to finish Ashen Wind then touches the skull and some other high value stuff before you what then? Does the game 'know' it was you that defeated Old Horatio? What if the tucker fires only one shot that happens to kill him?

• If you came across a pile of floating loot because somebody sunk to PvE you wouldn't be able to turn it in because it 'isn't yours'?

So many "easy" mechanic changes, workarounds, rules and exceptions that would be required to be added, tracked and implemented to fix and bypass something that isn't even broken in the first place.

I am sure the programmers and game designers would be thrilled to have to revisit the whole system they created in the past, as well as to think every future features, updates and mechanics in function of how it would have to work in PVP and PVE and make sure everything is balanced in every possible scenario.

@glannigan said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

So..no one can shoot or run over gunpowder? “Hey everyone make sure you touch our Gun Powder before the boss that way it doesn’t hurt us”.

I said last player to touch it. So everyone touching it would do nothing whatsoever. And yes, you can shoot it and run if over, but a player picking it up would stop it from being useful to attack other players with.

What about the alliances? How would they work if the mechanics are set up like that?

What would be the problem?

Half the time I die from Gun Powder it’s because a teammate blows it up too close to me or I set it off myself...

If you set it off yourself you'd still die from it. If the gunpowder had never been touched by a player it would function as normal. The only effect would then be if a player on your team dropped it, then someone else shot it near you, and you wouldn't suffer damage as usual. But we could simply extend that to say that a team-mate touching gunpowder extends the effect to you, problem solved.

See now we’re going from PVE to flat out super easy baby mode.

In what way? If you didn't touch the barrel, it kills you. If a member of your team picks it up, it kills you. The only way it couldn't kill you is if another crew drops it next to you and triggers you. What's the problem?

Now we’re not just hitting a PVE Switch we are fundamentally redesigning the games it’s concepts and interactions.

Explain where that is?

Would treasure even sunk on a PVE Server?

Sure, why not?

What if you get Krakened or Meg’d can the other crew not help/interact with said Kraken and Meg?

Sure, why not?

If you start Flameheart can only your ship hit him hit him for the rest of the event?

Nope, why would it?

What’s the keep someone from just “Tagging” the Winds guy and sailing off?

Not sure what your objection there is.

What if your in an Alliance and NO one Touches the Gun powder when you open FOTD and someone shoots it?

Then it kills you. Gunpowder you've not touched acts as usual.

@lem0n-curry said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:
Didn't see this point addressed above. What if the thief of the loot you picked up first doesn't turn in the loot ? Or waits until you're done and leave the server ?

The marking of the loot can stay on after you've left the server, and if loot stolen from your ship isn't turned in then when the game does finally wipe it then it automatically goes onto your account.

What if the thief turns into a fake Robin Hood and gives your treasure that's on his boat to a third crew to turn in ? They'll be disappointed or assume a bug.

Yes, they would. But I think at that point its an edge case of an edge case isn't it? Do you foresee that being a huge problem?

@wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@GtotheFo

So you are basically asking them to redesign the game for a baby mode..

Sorry, how am I asking them to do anything? Someone asked a set of questions about how something could in theory work mechanically and I answered them. I'm not saying that I want that to happen, but I thought an honest question had been asked so I strove to answer it.

Honestly, I put up a post outlining what I saw to be the most viable alternative PvE leaning modes, then gave what I thought to be a set of reasonable and constructive answers to a set of questions, and you took from that my demanding a PvE server with those changes? If you ask me how it would even be in theory possible to kill someone with a big knife I want it to be very clear that my answer is not a suggestion that you should stab someone in the chest.

@wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

• First and foremost sorry, it's nobody's loot until it's turned in..

Not on this server it wouldn't be. Sort of the point of it.

• If a tucker waits for you to finish Ashen Wind then touches the skull and some other high value stuff before you what then? Does the game 'know' it was you that defeated Old Horatio? What if the tucker fires only one shot that happens to kill him?

Sure, the game does know who kills what things anyway, that's why I get an emissary pop for killing captain skellies even if I don't turn in the skull. So sure, it can tag the Old Horatio loot to go to whoever killed him. Or it can share the loot equally across everyone who caused him damage based on the percentage of damage caused to him. So the most loot goes to the person who did the most work, so the tucker would only get the loot if they killed him, the lucky last shot would net them almost nothing.

• If you came across a pile of floating loot because somebody sunk to PvE you wouldn't be able to turn it in because it 'isn't yours'?

There's no reason that a ship sinking to PvE wouldn't be able to return that loot back to being loose loot.

Look, I'm not advocating for a full PvE server, but the idea that the mechanics of making it work would be some sort of brain melting impossible network of mega issues just isn't true. The game tags who picked up what anyway. That's why you pop an achievement when someone turns in one of your chests the first time even if it happens after you leave the server. It knows that I dug up the chest that you handed in, it just needs to use that information to make so that I get the loot instead of you. Its why you get emissary rank ups halfway through a mission. Its all being tracked anyway, you just have to change where the loot and such goes to being based on who did the work rather than who hands it over at the guild.

Edited to add:

Just to help, in relations to the questions that you quoted:

*Lets say they do in fact create a pve server and that premise is that you can't kill other players. How does the game calculate that? How does the game know that the fire thats spreading on your boat was thrown by a player or not?

I assume freakish witchcraft. Which is why when I firebomb a skellie I get a commendation when they die and you don't. But the game does track which fire comes from which player.

How does the game know the canon on the island was a skeleton and not a player?

Presumably the same freakish witchcraft. Notice that count of how many ships you sunk and how it doesn't go up for anyone when a skellie cannon sinks someone? That way.

A ship sinks by taking on water, it sinks when it gets full to much. How does this games code tell the game that its another player who has decided to take your ship and run it into an island?

Doesn't. It just makes it so that non-crew members of a ship can't interact with the steering of another ship. Just like I can't vote down your mission when I go onto your ship because I can't interact with it because I'm not a member of the crew. Just extend that to the other interactions.

If an attempt was made for a PVE server it would nothing short of a troll mode. Sure I can't do damage to you or perhaps even your ship. But how will the game stop me from just picking up your chest? How will the game code that in?

It uses the information that it uses to trigger the "this is unacceptable" achievement to direct the loot from the chest.

@cotu42
Why does gold carry over to the next session, you didn't earn it then?
Why does commendations carry over the next session, you didn't complete them all there.
Why does your cosmetics carry over to the next session?
You didn't earn Pirate Legend in every new session.
See..
Why does your reputations carry over to the next session with you?
You earned them. That's why. Period.
You might as well have a Bounty tab in the reputation page that tells you how much your bounty is. A faction that doesn't have a level it just says your bounty. Who you've killed and who has killed you. How many bounties have you lost. What's the highest bounty you've ever had.
You earned your bounty. Why does earning something always have to be fully positive thing or something you've accomplished?
You've accomplished killing pirates and sinking their ships.

Because if they don't reflect, the system is pointless.
You build a reputation with the system, just like any roleplaying game of what kind of player you are.
I explained it before. No one would ever be bounty grade 5, 4 even 3 if it resets every server hop and relog. There's no reason to stick around in the same session for that long. That's the whole point of growing a feared name for yourself inside the game world. When they see you coming, they know their days are numbered. That's what being notorious is about. You're famous but with a price. Being famous always comes with a price. Here it's this.

You're literally crying about spending money, that grows in trees in the game. As said i guarantee if you don't have enough money to bail yourself out, you're also not going to reach that level of bounty where you need to worry about it. The lowest bailout bounty is 250g and you need to sink 6 ships without sinking to even have the option to pay it. If you manage that, i guarantee you have 250g to spend on bailout if you want to go pve. So what's the punishment cause it sure as **** is not about money. Most crews i'd say will have extremely difficulties reaching bounty level 2, sink 12 ships in a row without sinking. Does it sound easy?

Let's say you kill someone on the street and take their wallet, does that reset the next morning in to the pocket who was killed? No.
Now you kill a pirate in SoT and take their loot, do they get their loot back with them as they respawn. No
Life lesson 101. Touch luck. Don't die.
Real world has a bounty system to punish criminals.
But a game about criminals can't have a bounty system, cause it punishes pvping criminals. Cause god save the pvp players from all the harm. Nothing bad should ever happen to them cause they pvp.
That's exactly what this sounds right now.
Right.. Makes sense.

What is the punishment btw? What is the pvp crew loosing? Gold? nope it doesn't come from their pockets.
You become a target. Nope, unless you actually sink a minimum of 24 ships on the same day you want to go pve. Good luck trying to do that.
What is the punishment? The gold gained from the bounty is there to give a ship value when empty, worth to defend against, instead of being a respawning nothingness. We might as well make the ships all worth gold when sinking and not call it a bounty, it's just how ships are you know they are worth money. How about everytime you sink you pay gold to buy a new ship. It's not a bounty, IT'S a PUNISHMENT to EVERYONE who sinks. Sounds more fair. Let's do that!

So people that are good are now being punished cause they have to pay a minor fee for being bad and i don't mean bad players i mean bad humans who kill other humans. What a game about pirates can't teach kids moral values and that killing is bad? Where else are they going to learn that? From the action movies?

Attracting more pvp is now a punishment?
Hello! I'm a PVE nublet digging up a chest on this island, doing voyage on this island, my ships standing in there waiting for my crew to come back. Or i'm a pirate legend crew digging more Athenas on that island, my grade 5 Athena emissary waving at the back of my boat. THAT DOESN'T ATTRACT CONSISTENT PVP?!? It's all it does! And that's not a punishment? No no it's a feature how the game works. Remember kids pvp is more important than pve. "It's a pvpve game dude." It says in the box. Pvp players can attack pve guy no questions asked, but a pve guy attacking pvp crew! Someone alert the church elders!!! Call the pope, right now can't have this!

But suddenly since the target is a pvp player or a pvpve player who has managed to sink 24 other pirate ships on the server. They should not attract consistent pvp? Oh wait they should but only if they put on the reaper's flag themselves, cause it's already in the game, it's an acceptable feature. The hypocrisy.

There the system in a way is already in the game, it's called reaper's flag and emissary that marks you on the map. Only difference is that it is controlled by the pvp players putting on the flag or emissary, it is not controlled by the people they sunk or by anything else, but the players. Why do they get to decide when they are visible and when they are not? Grade 5 reaper emissary can see all other emissaries on their map, what gives them that right? Cause they are pvpr's.. right..

I would argue no one reading this will ever get bounty level 4 even.
It the system described.
For that to happen YOU need to SINK 24 ships without sinking yourself in 24 hours. Are you going to do that? Doubt.

And in the end..
Why not. It's a pirate game. Anything that happened to real pirates can happen in a pirate game, whether it's fun or not. What makes these pirates different.. and don't say fantasy game.
It's a game of piracy, that imitates stealing loot from others.
It can imitate other aspects of that life.

So it's okay that digging up loot and loosing it to pvp. That's not a punishment for the pve players but a feature, cause it's been in the game since day one.
But a new pvp system of bounties is now a punishment for pvp players and it targets and punishes pvp solely. Right.. This is the hypocrisy i'm talking about. It's fine as long as it only happens to the other side. PVPr's cannot have any punishing features towards them.

As i suggested, how do you make the pve crew not run away with the loot in a fight when being attacked upon? Why should they fight and not run? The attacker brings nothing to the fight, but those million dollar supplies and broken hearts when their ship gets sunk by a superior pve crew, unless they do like in this case. The bounty is not even off their own pocket. Nobody with a bounty on their head will loose their gold, unless you pay to get rid of the bounty which is completely optional, you're not required to spend your gold. They still don't loose anything if they sink. Someone can cash in their bounty and they lost nothing cause the bounty comes from the bounty system not from the attackers gold reserve. I actually liked the idea someone said that you could physically steal pirates clothes when you kill them, even if they are store bought with irl money. Now that's a open loot worth stealing.

What's the punishment?
The fact that if you are successful in pvp and no one sinks you you're marked at grade 4? On the rare occasion that happens. If 20 ships in 24 hours is too little make it challenge. In order to be marked as bounty on the map you need to kill 50 ships in 24 hours. Nobody is going to reach that. The other grades are there just to serve as something the attacker brings in to fights to be worth fighting against.

Why does it apply to pvp crews? Cause the PVE crews already has their "punishment" as you call it. The treasure they carry. Oops that's a feature in the game, not a punishment... Shame on me. Good pve crew manages to sell off their loot before it is stolen. Good pvp crew manages to avoid their bounties until is taken. Bad pve crews have their loot stolen. Bad pvp crews loose their bounties to enemies.

PVE crew doesn't have to pay a fee to switch roles? Well if they witch roles they are now a pvp crew and if they sink ships they get a bounty on them, go pvp as they do, they can get the exact same bounties on them as the pvp crews. And belive me if you're 70% pve crew and 30% pvp crew, you're the one that switching back to pve more often, hence you pay the bailout more often. Maybe smaller fees unless you're godlike as pvp crew but still more often since you want to go back pve and the full 100% pve crew their fee of paying is loosing all their treasure to pvpr's. They can loose the gold they dug up. Right on the spot they dug it up. It doesn't say fee, but that's what that is, i dug the loot, it's mine and you steal it away, it's a fee. Fee on both sides. Is it a 250g gold for level 1 bounty bail. Or one 1500g captains chest the pve crew can loose. Well what's the cheapest treasure you can loose.. 200+g something silver box.

In the system pve players fee is whatever is on their ship physically if they don't protect it. If it's 4 forts worth of loot, that's a big fee to loose. But even with the system the maximum the pvp crew's fee, if they suck and sink is grade 5 at 62500. Which is barely worth one full fort in gold. So it's much cheaper and this in the case that you actually are grade 5 bounty, which i'd argue about 1-2% of the playerbase will ever reach.

How does it tell people to keep killing cause you're marked. You're not marked, unless you're really really good. 24 ships without sinking in 24 hours remember. That is a lot. If you can do that you can handle being marked, cause right now you can be marked for free without doing anything. You put on reaper emissary and you're marked. BAM. I hear no one complaining about that. You need to earn to be marked at least in this system which is a lot to earn.

"The system shouldn't punish people that play one side of the coin."
Your words not mine..
So make a full pve server then in the game. NO don't DO THAT.
Just saying, cause to some people treasure being stolen is a punishment.
Hypocrisy. It's okay for pve players to have punishment but not pvp players.

What value the emissary system adds to both sides?
One flag worth a dime? yep..
Adds value to ships.. What does my system do?
Add a god **** value to a ship that's empty.
Promotes hoarding more treasure on board... For the pve crew.
The attacking pvp emissary crew coming after said treasure got an empty ship. They don't hoard jack****.

If you would have read my previous reply in full you'd realize to get a bigger bounty and be visible on the map you have to do a lot of pvp. A LOT. More than normally, more than in the arena. When the bounty expires after a day, what is encouraging you to keep playing the same style, you don't have a bounty if it expires. That's why the bounties reset after time, so you can switch roles for free. The bailout system is there if you're in a hurry and you've pvp'd a lot. It's just a price for being a murderer. PVP game, but still no one is forcing you to kill. It's all choices.. And as in life all choices come with consequences. Irl you'd be in jail, for sinking that many ships, but hey it's a game so we'll let you off the hook for a little bit of gold..

One more thing.. On top of all these "punishments"
What if the bounty system also has a benefit.
What if grade 4 bounty that makes you visible on the map the first time. Also grants you max level Reaper emissary for free as long as you have grade 4 bounty and all the pvp attracted to you and 15 ships chasing you etc. You have full normal reaper emissary active, and gain the same gold multiplier for selling the loot as the max reaper now.
THEN when you're grade 5 bounty, the hardest to achieve.
You get a reaper emissary level than cannot be obtained any other way. You gain a gold loot multiplier of 10x. All the loot you sell will grant you rep for all the factions in the game at the same time. But it only lasts as long as you're grade 5 bounty. The BIG RISK the BIG REWARD.
The moment you sink you loose your bounty level to zero and the reaper emissary goes to zero. Since it's a special thing, it cannot be picked up as the normal flags. The only way to earn this is emissary is to sink 30 player ships in a row without your ship sinking to enemy players. Try doing that.

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@lem0n-curry said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:
Didn't see this point addressed above. What if the thief of the loot you picked up first doesn't turn in the loot ? Or waits until you're done and leave the server ?

The marking of the loot can stay on after you've left the server, and if loot stolen from your ship isn't turned in then when the game does finally wipe it then it automatically goes onto your account

Stolen loot or just all loot ? Thus the player who just got into possession of some loot, only touches it - when someone else finds it (and think it'll be his) and wants to turn it in, it will go into the first pirate's pocket and if no one will it will just go into the first pirate's pocket when the server goes down ?
Why even bother to put treasure on your ship and turn it in ?

What if the thief turns into a fake Robin Hood and gives your treasure that's on his boat to a third crew to turn in ? They'll be disappointed or assume a bug.

Yes, they would. But I think at that point its an edge case of an edge case isn't it? Do you foresee that being a huge problem?

People enjoy sinking other crews and then just let the loot sink while they hop on another server and grief in other ways by the thousands if I have to believe some posters here - this way they can double the grief ... might not become an edge case ...

@gtothefo @CaptainSkandalf

So you are telling me that the same tracking system that can take up to 72 hours to put commendations or drops on to your account and had my game stats stuck on 80,000 metres sailed and 78 gold hoarders chests, 83 OoS skulls cashed in etc for 6 months while there was a support ticket open, then all of a sudden increase to what I presume is (nearer) the correct figure of nearly 1million metres sailed, 317 skulls blah etc etc over the last 2 or 3 weeks, is suddenly, magically going to start tracking every single SoT players stats in the amount of detail you are talking about, in absolute real time as well?? Nice one Rare.

I also probably won't bother cashing anything in ever again either, just touch it in the vault and wait for some other poor soul to go to the trouble for me. Bless 'em.

@wagstr
Well i think they already do track most of that stuff.
Haven't you seen the posts on their website and twitter.
They post how many millions of each chest have been dug up by the entire playerbase. They post how many cannonballs has been shot etc. Last holiday season they posted how many of those gift treasure boxes were given to other players by players.

They already track that stuff, they just don't tell it to us in-game.
Well they tell a small portion, the commendations etc.
They do do these occasional infoposters on the internet about it though. They are currently tracking the Fate of the damned update. How many skellies have you killed and what color etc..
They use the metrics to improve the game.
They use those metrics to see what players like to do in the game.
Pretty standard online video game stuff to keep track of things.
It tells them where and what to improve.

@captainskandalf

You failed to read my post.
There, I highlighted the relevant bit for you.

@wagstr
About how it doesn't update for you.
Yes. Haven't had any problems on my end in time the game existed.
Commendations are and update as they should.
If the server side sees how it's supposed to be, it's real time. If the client isn't updated, not a problem. As long as the server knows the situation.

@captainskandalf

So it's not a problem that the tracking doesn't update for weeks for many users as long as they update for you? Glad that's sorted. You can see the threads around this quite easily if you want..

@cleverk8 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

(...) Both of these statements can't be true at the same time. If the first IS true I would think PvE servers would be a benefit to PvPvEers. A constant complaint I see is people wanting to PvP but having the other ship run or scuttle or red sea. For the people that like a mix of everything, sometimes PvP sometimes alliances or PvE, you'd find nothing but servers full of pirates who enjoy mixing it up too. You'll still have the unknown factor that you enjoy, but all aspects are wanted and enjoyed by EVERYONE this time. (...)

Yes they can ... perhaps not for solo players or like-minded crews, but if you would be sailing with a group for years every weekend and just one of you want to have to do task X undisturbed, you probably end up all four on the PvE server.
The other three might enjoy the thrill of possible PvP while doing X but most crews probably would go for lowest denominator and choose PvE most of the time.

@wagstr I doubt they'd do it magically, I was sort of joking about the witchcraft thing. Look, a question was asked about how a thing would work mechanically, an answer was offered as to how it would work mechanically. I'm not privy to the workings of the programming involved. Is the system that tracks chest owner ship the one that tracks your overall account game stats or the one that tracks your in game loot reward? You get the loot for chests when you turn them in right? Do you know how those systems work exactly then? I'm not offering an opinion on how the programming would work, I'm offering an opinion on how the game mechanics could work, because that was the question asked.

Are you asking a mechanics question? Or making a rhetorical point about a server that pretty much no-one here thinks is actually a good idea?

@lem0n-curry said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

Stolen loot or just all loot ? Thus the player who just got into possession of some loot, only touches it - when someone else finds it (and think it'll be his) and wants to turn it in, it will go into the first pirate's pocket and if no one will it will just go into the first pirate's pocket when the server goes down ?
Why even bother to put treasure on your ship and turn it in ?

Well, you sort of answered your own question there. Only stolen loot.

People enjoy sinking other crews and then just let the loot sink while they hop on another server and grief in other ways by the thousands if I have to believe some posters here - this way they can double the grief ... might not become an edge case ...

All it would mean is that if a Pirate turns up on your boat to drop off mysterious free treasure you should consider it only possible treasure until you physically turn it in. I mean, that would be a really weird round about way of griefing wouldn't it? I rob and kill you, pick up all your loot, hunt down a second person, catch up to them, board them, load the loot over to their ship, just for the minor disappointment they'll feel when they turn in the first bit of treasure of the haul and realise that I'm actually not a charitable giver? They could dump the remaining treasure over the edge of the ship if they didn't want to bother turning it in and it would revert to the original owner on this system. Would that even really annoy people that much? I mean, honestly? That's the level you're having to stretch to in order to find "griefing" in this system, the fact that someone could put hours of work into mildly disappointing people?

@gtothefo This is the part of the discussion that always makes me laugh.
When people start making the rules for and imaginary passive server, and as they are question repeatedly about how the server would function, the rules get more and more and more complicated.
It's been said before on the forums by people who know what they are talking about, and its been said by the devs.
It would take a huge amount of work to write/ rewrite the game itself to make these servers and all these new rules you are coming up with, I believe that the devs once said it would be like making and curating an entirely different game, and they have no interest in doing that.

@scarecrow1771 Oh no, I don't doubt it. I don't get why people mistake my answering a question about a part of the system with the belief that I think its a brilliant idea to install the whole system. It does feel like part of the cycle though, I suggested that there are four general ideas being floated about what a tertiary mode might look like, someone asked a mechanical question about what might be part of one of the versions of one of the modes and a mire of digging through the minutiae of what no-one thinks is a very good idea splurges over what was almost a germ of an interesting discussion.

In truth I think the point of the PvE server wouldn't really be about whether you could get killed by other pirates or not, but more about whether it would matter. For example, there are tons of things in the game that you can't have killed off you. Like, if you've read a journal or not, sat in a skeleton throne or if you're carrying 14k worth of trophy fish. I would imagine that the point of the PvE server would be to just have all the killing happen as normal, but to only have those sorts of events in them, so there would just be really nothing to achieve by killing people. You'd still have some degree of active grief in that there would be some people who will just pointlessly annoy people pretty much no matter what you do, but you'd at least have cut it down from people who want to engage with your honestly when you don't want to engage with them plus the hardcore griefers to just the hardcore griefers.