[Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion

@scarecrow1771 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@theargonaut144 Yeah, new players will lose to experienced players in a pvp game, that's true of every pvp game ever.
But in SOT the combat is rather simple and straight forward, and there is no penalty for losing.
SOT was designed in a way that there is no cost to failure.

This pretty much describes the situation pretty well. As Jack Sparrow would say: "The problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude about the problem".

The eternal pvp/pve conflict stems much more from a mentality issue rather than a gameplay one. People who use words such as harsh punishment, and describe loss as a waste of time and refer to the game as hard work needs to lighten up and realise they are playing a game, and that sometimes you win and others you lose.

These people need to work on their attitude and good sportsmanship or reflect on why they are playing the game in the first place, instead of asking to drastically reduce chances of defeat in the game because it hurts their feelings.

@bloodybil bravo! Never seen this explained that well. 100% agree.

@ajm123 i agree. I was called so many nasty names tonight by the crews we hunted down and slaughtered. Its amazing what people call you sometimes. Oh well, that's what they get for flying an emissary flag.

@captain-coel Jokes aside, Crews that have attacked mine, win or loss, are mostly either silent, or offer a "GG" and maybe a little friendly, tongue in cheek banter.

On the other hand, most of the insults I've received out on the seas have come from crews that we have attacked. "griefers!" "you're ruining the game!" and "sweatlords with nothing better to do!" being the main points and leaving the naughty bits out.

Only twice have I come across truly toxic crews that had me seriously thinking about reporting them, and both were found in the Arena.

@sfp-the-hulk first, you're overreacting. Secondly, game is intendet to have pvp and stealing others loot is one think that drives people into pvp. Allaince flag means nothink, i would say every ship that i encounter with it is first one to shoot. Thirtly, its not anyones fault you lost five hours worth of loot but you're sealfs because you didn't sell more often.

People are connecting PvP and toxicity... and that is a problem as it is not really "the same thing". Sure some PvP players can be toxic, by name calling and such. But boarding and taking your supplies and loot is not... that is part of the game. The addition of the Emissary flags and the world events are beacons for PvP happenings.

PvE players can be just as toxic in their behaviour on the seas. They are just as likely or even more likely to get really salty and start bad mouthing you if you start attacking and stealing their loot, just because they feel bad because another crew is playing the pirate role in i PIRATE GAME.

So my point is... toxicity is not crews playing an aggressive PvP role (although many PvE players make it sound so), rather is is a problem that ALL online games have... some players are just not behaving very nice on the Internet. And this is a totally different problem, that has nothing to do with the PvE and PvP aspects of the game.

@sfp-the-hulk Thanks for demonstrating the problematic and over-dramatic mentality that makes people not enjoy the game. The problem isn't the other players, it's their own attitude hindering themselves.

I've lost hours of loot to people as well, still had fun during the session. We said GG to the other crew, we talked and laughed, made friends and sailed with them the next day making 3 times as much loot I lost the day prior.

Lighten up and sell more often ;)

@targasbr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

When I see that Rare wants to hear feedback thinking about maybe creating PvE or PvP servers, I see that Sea of ​​Thieves has lost its essence.

Sea of ​​Thieves was made with the proposal to be a pirate game in a shared world, and both proposals for PvE or PvE servers only, would evade the proposal we have.

In both cases, it would be removing pirates from a pirate game. In both cases we won't have an attacker and a defender. In both cases, we would have farm servers, and meaningless PvP servers.

On PvE servers no one would attack, and this would cause players to buy everything in the game and leave the game. On PvP servers, the only reason to attack would be destruction, driving away players who want to win a battle and sell the loot in a dignified manner.

Both options are terrible, the game must keep up with the current proposal.

I see it more as an initiative of the mods to tidy up the forum and prevent unnecessary duplicates castaway threads repeating the same thing over and over.

I am pretty sure Rare already knows everything they need to know data-wise about whether this should happen or not, and this forum is certainly not the best barometer of anything that should happen or not in the game really 😄

@theargonaut144 Crew numbers don't need to be even to be balanced, asymmetric gameplay is quite common in gaming, even in pvp games and is alot of fun (right about now there are many solo sloopers clearing their throats and preparing to introduce themselves).
A form of skill based matchmaking or ranking has no place in SOT, and it's effectiveness and whether it has a positive effect on a pvp game as a whole is.... contested to say the least. Overcoming the adversity of a learning curve (as flat as SOT's is) is something many people enjoy, and is part of the charm of SOT. Not every game needs to spoon feed its players with the best way to "win", or the answer to every challenge they may face, sometimes we gotta use out brains.

To you point about why PVE server can never happen.
One of the core philosophies of the game, and a HUGE part of the enjoyment of the game is the mystery of the the horizon, you never know what or who is just over the horizon, what you encounter when you set sail.
You add pve server, even ones with reduced rep or gold gain, and you have now segregated the player base. I was beginning to type out the whole explanation but I have neither the time, nor the effort, and its a topic done to death.
The answer is no, make your peace with that.

I would like to add a flavour to the discussion: while this game is designed as pvp-pve, the argument "don't play it then or at least don't complain" is missing the point that this game CAN offer a beautiful PvE experience. The ships, the atmosphere, the water effects and sailing mechanisms as well as the PvE content are amazing and fun enough to many. I like, and often play, the pirate game it's designed to be, but also sometimes I just want to play it with few friends and family after work with limited time. And guess what, pvp players really can ruin that experience. If you have to sail away for 1h because a reaper doesn't let you finish a tall tale, it just feels bad. So if you say "then it's not your game", I must disagree, because it could easily be, and often is. If Rare releases Sea of Sheep, I would play it for those occations.

What I'm trying to say is, there is good reasons to want PvE only and you shouldn't judge to quickly :) Also some pvp-standard answers simply miss the point.

Wierdly, and because of reasons, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. In actuality - I think we're polarizing around the wrong divide, as a playerbase.

Specifically - PVE or PVP is silly; PVEVP is the point. Without risk, turning in those rewards is not nearly as exhillarating (the PVP adds to PVE experiences) and without people who love digging up chests and fighting skeletons, dedicated PVPers would have no booty to loot. In other words, the content of each 'playstyle' really is dependent on the other style.

Thus, bluntly, PVErs who insist that PVP is spoiling their fun are missing the point just as much as the PVPer who says 'git gud' or who thinks raiding other people's forts and never doing anything that gives them something to lose is the pinnacle of how awesome they are.

IMO - If you engage in only one aspect of the game, you are not playing it as intended. PVP server hoppers looking for people to fight are just as to blame as PVErs who hop looking for peaceful sailing experiences. PVPVE is exactly the point. To the point -that PVPers saying "You shouldn't be allowed to run so that I have better fights" are just as problematic as the PVEr saying "I should never have to fight."

However, I think it fair to say that where the problem lies is in certain core gameplay loops that could use a bit of tweaking. PVPers, you want other people to start forts so you can steal them.. but you don't want to start your own to get the fights you want. PVErs would love to do the forts, but never start them because... what's the point? THey rarely get to keep the loot. And - while I'm exaggerating, I'm not exaggerating by much, here.

I would suggest that any 'fix' should be directed at two simple concepts:

• When you sink a PVEr, they shouldn't lose everything. Mechanically, the game already tracks whether you were the first person to touch loot or not; why not give half the value to the fellow who touched it first, as long as they're on the same server as when it's sold? This solves two problems: the PVE player doesn't leave the server emptyhanded after a bad experience, and the world-event-doer has incentive to at least get it done, as the loot has significant value.
• When world events are designed, they should not be designed in such a way that they favor the aggressor. Flameheart is actually a good example here - those ships are equally aggro to anything that gets close and the 'event surface' is across only one aspect of gameplay: ship combat. The FOTD is a terrible example: one crew has to be on the fort fighting the event, while everybody else has to fight only the half that's defending the FOTD-doers ship. Aggressors are set up to win, and defenders are at a tremendous disadvantage.

Seriously - one minor loot change, though, and you solve these issues. I want to be the one cracking the fort and opening the vault, because then I'm guaranteed at least half the value of the stuff in there. I want to take down the ashen lord because even if you've thrashed my ship in the ocean, I'm going to get something out of the experience.

It really is disheartening to spend a lovely evening doing something fun with friends to be denied your payout. It's merely annoying to lose a freshly spawned ship - but it's downright rage-inducing to get steamrolled by a better crew when you're just trying to get logged out for a night.

Want fresh blood? Really reduce the failure penalty. Give people the understanding that - hey, if you fight? You get it all, but if you fight and lose? You still get half.. and watch people not immedately head off into the red sea.

Reminder: There is absolutely no way to practice effectively in adventure mode. If you're a PVPer and you're up against a new player, or even someone who isn't who just hasn't had many encounters? You are not making their day more fun. They have zero incentive to fight you - you brought no treasure, you're better supplied, have better skills, and their experience is akin to a kitten getting mauled by a steamroller. OF COURSE they're not going to be happy with that! How is that fun?

"Git good" doesn't make up for the frustration of the loss - so lessen the frustration of the loss, and I suspect you'll lessen calls for the losses to be removed entirely.

@jonahgrimm said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

I would suggest that any 'fix' should be directed at two simple concepts:

Want fresh blood? Really reduce the failure penalty. Give people the understanding that - hey, if you fight? You get it all, but if you fight and lose? You still get half.. and watch people not immedately head off into the red sea.

There is reason why you can't open lets say you're captains chest at island and you have to sell it. Its so someone could steal it and leave you with nothing. "Loot isn't you'res before you cash it in" By giving losing side half of the gold that they got stolen from them (and them losing it was nobody's fault but their's) is like giving them participation medal for getting the last place.

@Limend - and?

This isn't a sport - it's a game about cartoon pirates making gold points.

I run with new players constantly. They love the game - until the moment they're steamrolled, and then I lose them, potentially forever.

Their gripe? "I did all that stuff - and there wasn't any point? I struggled and we fought giant megalodons and we did x thing or y thing.. and then this guy rolls up and we didn't even do anything?"

I can laugh myself, or point out how it's a game about pirates, and we can do that too! .. but that new player just saw some guy come through and take everything from them. It takes time to learn that this game isn't about progression, or even gold - it's about those moments, and those experiences.

If that one change gets more people to stay on your server, if that one change gets you more fights, and more interesting interactions - more daring pirates! - what diffeerence does it make? That's what we're all after - and gold game points can be rewarded without taking away from your experience.

@jonahgrimm said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@Limend - and?

This isn't a sport - it's a game about cartoon pirates making gold points.

If its only game about making more gold and nothing serious then it should be ok to loose all of it sometimes :) But i see you're point

If that one change gets more people to stay on your server, if that one change gets you more fights, and more interesting interactions - more daring pirates! - what diffeerence does it make? That's what we're all after - and gold game points can be rewarded without taking away from your experience.

If this would make them stay on server and start new voyage, maybe fight them again and again wouldn't that mean that they don't care about losing it anymore?
If so why would they bother to fight anyway?

I can laugh myself, or point out how it's a game about pirates, and we can do that too! .. but that new player just saw some guy come through and take everything from them. It takes time to learn that this game isn't about progression, or even gold - it's about those moments, and those experiences.>

If game didn't have any progression what the point of getting loot then? We do it for gold and rep. But after that there isn't need for any of them so you do it for sake of it.
Then only things left are mainly pvp and that way having fun.