Words of Wisdom... player behaviour

  • Had to post this, hope you don't mind @captain-faicore

    PROVISO: Please leave NO upvotes for me posting this

    It's NOT about that
    It's about what one of our own has to say about a VERY important topic.

    Thank you @captain-faicore a good reminder to us all!!!

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  • @piratecraggy very much needed at present.
    Would be handy to consider this a guide to general internet behaviour as well and not just the game.

  • @piratecraggy This may be an unpopular opinion but I honestly believe people need to remember the old sticks and stones sayings..
    People just get offended over the most silliest of things these days and it will never lead to anything good.

    Firstly “Toxic behaviour” is open to interpretation, so instantly that’s a hornets nest of issues.
    Someone may sink you and laugh, in the defenders point of view that could be toxic, someone may swear at you in a joking manner E.g “Oh you little Shark how did you even hit me then” that can be toxic behaviour if said to the right person.

    To me the only language behaviour which I would deem as toxic is racism, homophobic and other categories like that, attacking people for things they have no control over.
    That should be reported.

    If someone swears at me I laugh it off, you are never going to go through life without hearing swear words or others swearing at you. The more it happens the more you realise how little it actually means.
    I mean what even happens when someone offends you... okay I’m offended... 10 mins later you get over it. Nothing happens lol.

    Another thing is young children in the game, I understand that argument to a point, but at the same time there are parental controls to stop your children being put in those situations. It’s an unpopular belief but as parents it’s your job to use the tools provide to limit the kind of behaviour you don’t want your children to be exposed to.

    I have kind of went of on a tangent and forgot what point I was trying to make, but I suppose to wrap up.

    You cannot have clear and concise rules on something like toxcicty and offense when both of those things are open to interpretation and vary from person to person.

    I believe the only exceptions are the ones I stated above because they actually do have a clear consensus on what they are and can actively be addressed.

    Edit: Also @PirateCraggy i will upvote your post just because you told me not to ;)

  • Sorry mate, you are getting an upvote from me as, while you may not have made this video, you shared it with us. And I find this a very fitting video that is much needed in our community these days.

  • @knifelife said in Words of Wisdom... player behaviour:

    @piratecraggy This may be an unpopular opinion but I honestly believe people need to remember the old sticks and stones sayings..
    People just get offended over the most silliest of things these days and it will never lead to anything good.

    Firstly “Toxic behaviour” is open to interpretation, so instantly that’s a hornets nest of issues.
    Someone may sink you and laugh, in the defenders point of view that could be toxic, someone may swear at you in a joking manner E.g “Oh you little Shark how did you even hit me then” that can be toxic behaviour if said to the right person.

    To me the only language behaviour which I would deem as toxic is racism, homophobic and other categories like that, attacking people for things they have no control over.
    That should be reported.

    If someone swears at me I laugh it off, you are never going to go through life without hearing swear words or others swearing at you. The more it happens the more you realise how little it actually means.
    I mean what even happens when someone offends you... okay I’m offended... 10 mins later you get over it. Nothing happens lol.

    Another thing is young children in the game, I understand that argument to a point, but at the same time there are parental controls to stop your children being put in those situations. It’s an unpopular belief but as parents it’s your job to use the tools provide to limit the kind of behaviour you don’t want your children to be exposed to.

    I have kind of went of on a tangent and forgot what point I was trying to make, but I suppose to wrap up.

    You cannot have clear and concise rules on something like toxcicty and offense when both of those things are open to interpretation and vary from person to person.

    I believe the only exceptions are the ones I stated above because they actually do have a clear consensus on what they are and can actively be addressed.

    Edit: Also @PirateCraggy i will upvote your post just because you told me not to ;)

    this right here is reality. Good post.

  • @enticed-malice he gets my upvote too for discussing the matter in a reasonable and tactful manner.

  • @knifelife

    I agree with the general "Sticks & Stones" argument.
    We do seem to be getting less intolerant, quicker to anger over the smallest of things.

    I think we just have to respect, and be more patient with one another.
    Embrace our differences, and celebrate common ground. Life is too short after all.

    Edit: @KnifeLife ... bad boy... lol... but thank-you.

  • @piratecraggy
    Exactly, has try and live by the mentality of treat others how i would like to be treated.
    And I will also be the first to say I don’t always do that, like everyone I make mistakes and sometimes have slip ups but i believe it is still something worth pursuing.

    My biggest fear is the fear of people not being able to express themselves for fear of offense. Now that doesn’t mean people should go around swearing and attacking people whenever they feel like it. But I do also think there should be a balance and we as humans on general should try not to act in the heat of the moment.
    One example what I try to do (Emphasis on the try! It’s definitely a work in progress haha!) is if I do get “triggered” is to just wait 10-15 mins before I respond, and if I’m still raging after that have at it! Haha but at least it gives me a small amount of time to collect my views and pick my battles I suppose.

    Once again just gone of on a tangent and have lost my trail of thought...
    Either way great post I think it is definitely a conversation we should all try to have from time to time as without words we would still be living in caves and never evolve as humans. :)

  • @enticed-malice

    Yip agree with you & @Sshteeve ...
    @KnifeLife has made some really good posts over the past while, I may not always agree with everything said.
    But to be honest I generally do ( & 100% ), I value input, and the right to reply.
    I often then as a result... can see ( and respect ) the other side of the argument. Kudos Knife!

    edit... btw we are on the same page with this one, we generally are :)

  • Saw this earlier today and couldn't agree more, I had similar experience with players killing me then start trash talking or even trash talk after I killed them, I usually don't bother to respond to them no matter what they say. If you get killed then your opponent has outplayed you and you have to respect that, also if you killed an enemy, it means that they are not experienced enough so have respect for that as well, you don't know how many hours has the guy played, maybe he started the game a week ago while you are here since the launch. Just some thoughts from me, there are a lot of cases going through my mind, that can happen any time in the game.

  • This isn't that I don't agree with Captain Falcore, however, I think people take things way too personal, then toss it in this all encompassing box known as "Toxic Behavior."

    So way back in the early days of SoT Fort Hopping, we roll up on this highly contested Fort. I'm talking 3 Separate Galleons with everyone sinking. The entire time mostly everyone was trash talking, not the kind Captain Falcore says that is okay. Side note, I wouldn't classify that as banter or trash talk. That isn't to say dropping slurs and the like are. However, back to the story. When the gunpowder settled and the loot was finally claimed, a simple, "Hey, it was a good match, we had fun." This one simple phrase turned the entire incident into a jolly experience. Everyone met on the tavern and just talked about highlights during the fight. Friends were made that day.

    The minute you start taking things personal, is the moment things become toxic. That is the nature of toxicity, something that spreads and corrodes. Not taking it personal, or just laughing it off will stop the spread of it. Talk or actions of that nature stop becoming toxic.

  • @knifelife I think, while you are correct with the sticks and stone analogy to an extent, it is more about intent. If you treat others without any form of respect, and act as if they do not matter at all, or treat them as such, and in doing so try to humiliate them, then you are toxic. Now, this being the internet that is often times up to subjection.

    An example, a pirate that enjoys the game for the PvE encounters another pirate that is there for PvP. PvP player pursues and kills PvE player, and then taunts them about how bad they are at PvP. Is that being toxic? The killing them is not, that is not debated here. Unless they are spawn killing them, or trolling them just for their own twisted satisfaction. But, while killing them you are spouting off at them about how pathetic they are, throwing in foul language in doing so, then yes, that is toxic in my opinion. Far too often we forget, there is a real person on the other side of the computer/console. And treating them as if they are animals is not acceptable behavior. You don't know what kind of day that person had today, and you don't know how much you might have made it worse by killing their pixels, and then you pour it on by adding insults? That is toxic and quite honestly shows the true character of that person.

    Now I do understand that some want PvP and since there is a majority of pirates that don't, find it hard to obtain PvP that is enjoyable. So they resort to these toxic types of behavior to try and encourage it, but that too is just being toxic. I can't get my way so I will beat up on someone until they give me my way.

    I for one will always try to remember that their is a person on the other side of that screen playing and will treat them with the same respect I treat strangers when I hold open a door for them at the local market, or when I wait an extra minute to allow that car pull out in front of me because no one else will.

    And forgive me for singling you out matey, I know you are respectful on the seas, but what you wrote makes me worried about our future. Are we really so lost that we think foul language towards other people, with intent to cause them harm or embarrassment, is ok in any shape or form? Says a lot about humanity if that is the case.

  • @nabberwar said in Words of Wisdom... player behaviour:

    The minute you start taking things personal, is the moment things become toxic. That is the nature of toxicity, something that spreads and corrodes. Not taking it personal, or just laughing it off will stop the spread of it. Talk or actions of that nature stop becoming toxic.

    Well put!
    I would agree there is a middle ground, not everything is Black & White. Certain things can be brushed off, others things can't, we all have to be very careful.
    I guess with the maturity that comes to us all we should all behave the way we all wish to be treated. Well said @Nabberwar , in general I would say that's right.

  • @nofears-fun wish I could upvote many times. It is a question of intent.

    I took a video game design class in college where we looked at studies that break all gamers down into 4 types -- the Explorer, the Achiever, the Socializer, and the Griefer. We talk about griefing and trolling as if they are specific actions, when they are actually mindsets. Griefing is any action taken so as to gain pleasure/enjoyment from making other players lose/suffer. Griefing is when you don't care about the loot (that's the Achiever), you just care about making the other guy lose.

    To carry that over to the "toxicity" question in this thread -- the real take-home is not "this word isn't allowed," but rather that our mindset and intention should be to have fun in a fashion that allows the other guys to have as much fun as possible as well. So if I go and steal your loot because I enjoy the rush of PVP and I want loot to sell, I'm an Achiever/Explorer and it's fine -- even if I throw some friendly trash-talking in there. The moment I start saying or doing anything with the intentional goal of causing pain (ie, I just love how mad they get when I steal their loot, I don't even bother selling it later), that's griefing.

  • @vorondil1 Couldn't agree more matey. Well said.

  • @nofears-fun

    For me "Foul" language isn't acceptable as a general rule.
    In real life, I try my best, in game I try even harder.
    Does the odd word slip out?.... well... it does happen.
    Generally it's when I'm caught off guard, or jump scared. ( In game. People tend not to jump me IRL )
    It's not directed towards anyone other than myself, usually me annoyed at myself more than anything.

    Never toxic, but more so a failing & my choice of language.
    However, could my expletives be deemed as toxic?
    Does that other person realise that the swear word wasn't for them?
    I don't know, it's a struggle, and doesn't happen often, thankfully.

    For me it's the combination of behaviour,
    the choice of language, & the users intent.
    This can be difficult to gauge.

    Have I been on the receiving end?...
    Luckily not too often, & it has been quickly brushed off.
    It's an issue for the game...
    But a broader issue for society, not one easily fixed, but must be kept in check.

    edit: some "Soap & Water" for Craggy's mouth please :)

  • @piratecraggy LOL, I too have been victim to my own filter from time to time. I too try to act with a sense of civility towards others in real life and in game. I truly see no difference between the two. After all, they are real people on the other side of that screen. Sadly, because we are not next to them in RL, people feel that how they treat them doesn't matter. But it does and should.

    And yes, I think actions alone are not always what is toxic. It is generally those actions with the intent behind them that is.

  • @piratecraggy haha I didn't have soap and water, when I was younger, my punishment for swearing/lying (the two "mouth" problems in my mother's opinion) was to put a few drops of hot sauce on my tongue, and not allowed to swallow for 30 seconds...I ended some habits quite quickly!

  • @vorondil1

    Wow! I thought my parents were harsh.
    But we love them all the same :)

  • I would have to say that the balance of political correctness has these days swung too far to one side in many cases. It seems society has reached a peak of a perpetual state of being offended without the required clarity to understand things such as facts and truth in order to discern the reality of the situation. However, we must never let true toxic behavior go unchecked or established levels of acceptability for it.

    True toxic behavior is a common concern in real life just as it is in video games. In multiplayer video games it corrodes players efforts, their morale, and harms a game’s ambiance. In the worse cases it demeans and corrodes self worth. The root of the problem is the lack of good sportsmanship in any situation where there is a competitive nature of player versus player. I see the lack of good sportsmanship almost every time I sail in Sea of Thieves.

    Everyone wants to win. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem is we will not always win. People in real life are not prepared to face the fact that sometimes, if not many times, over the course of our lives we will lose at something. Playing real life sports with a good coach can go a long way to learning what it means to play together and respect yourself and your opponents rather you win or lose. In online games that opportunity is mostly absent and sadly often ignored.

    Intentional toxic behavior happens when a player truly seeks to harass or harm other players. It is like trolling in the forums. The aim is to have fun or gain advantage over others at the expense of the target or victim. Typically for their own person enjoyment, self satisfaction, and often reinforcement of low self esteem or various other psycho-social issues.

    Toxicity in video games is a wide open issue covering rude behavior such as trash talk to include slurs and expressions of racism, homophobia, and sexism. In most online multiplayer video games with elements of PvP this most often makes up a significant portion, if not the only form, of communication between players. In Sea of Thieves all the above can be very common when you encounter someone else on the sea, especially when you sink someone no matter how the situation was entered into and played out.

    Slurs and other forms of racism, homophobia, and sexism are more common in online video games than many want to realize or accept to be true. The online world is amphitheater for such real life behavior. This level of toxicity rises to the level of harassment and hate. Trash talk should not just be considered a lesser evil. It is still wrong, unnecessary, and unacceptable. It should never trump good sportsmanship and mutual respect.

    While a toxic community might not be the only cannonballs shot to sink a game, even a very popular one, it can still go a long way to ruin the online experience in that game and sway public perception to only see the worse possible. Shunning other players, belittling them, and other such abusive language that some want to condone as simple trash talk can cause a lot of other players to sail on to more friendly, safer horizons in other games.

    One of the main reasons and often the sole reason I see in personal reviews about why someone does not play Sea of Thieves is all the toxicity out there on the sea. Reason others personally tell me they will not play it. Online anonymity allows many to be the worse they can be to others. Sea of Thieves can allow such players to double down with the excuses “I am only playing a pirate”, this is not “Sea of Friends”, or this is a “pirate game”.

    Personally I rather sail in a “Sea of Friends” where we all can be “pirates” while at the same time we remember there is another player on the other end of that other pirate we just sent to the ferry or their ship we just sunk. We are not “real pirates” and why does that mean we have to be bad to one another? For the most part the behavior that many players show others on the sea is nothing about being a pirate.

    We all benefit when we create a open, inviting, friendly, and respectful environment to sail on. It is not just everyone else’s responsibility to have a good time playing an online multiplayer game. It is all our responsibility because we are not playing a single player game. Our actions, behavior, and most importantly our words matter because we are not alone out there on the sea. We need each other for any multiplayer game to remain popular and survive. Most importantly we need each other to get the most out of the online world we all love and time we each spend in it. Be more pirate by being a better pirate to each other.

  • @x-crowheart-x said in Words of Wisdom... player behaviour:

    Be more pirate by being a better pirate to each other.

    Outstanding! Beginning to End.
    Extremely well put.

  • havent read all yet, but i want to say something about the topic.

    I tend to have zero tolerance for people who don't respect my dignity!
    Thing is imho we need to nip it in the bud!

    Nobody cares for a f...you today or derogative langage and we all become used to it and start to laugh about it, dont take it serious anymore.
    This way the n..i's raised. They do it again today!

    To speak and to express oneself is something very powerfull.
    See politicians all over the world.
    they often establish a way of speaking about this or that what is in no way caring for the others dignity.

    Same for internet slang and speech. Same for your kids in school, same when we were at school and our parents were shocked were we learned to express ourself this way.

    Honestly, i dont want to sound moralistic and i dont want to overreact and i also often laugh about someone verbaly attacking me and i'm also not allways accurate, but i was and are many times treated a way i do not accept anymore and i allways say if i think the way someone has spoke to me was not ok.

    This is at least something what i think is very individualistic and we need not tolerate or accept if others exceed the limits.

    Everyone should approach others with respect and reluctance first.
    A little more humbleness in the first time to find out where are the others limits.

    I dont like the individualistic, egocentric, performance foscussed and hedonistic society we live in today.
    I'd prefer a more kollectivistic, altruistic, life and nature focussed and stoic society.

    But you cannot and you shouldnt try to change others, but just stay authentic and be an idol7 role model to others.
    Some will maybe like it the way you do it and join you.

    Nobody should exagerate if someone mock at him/her or insult you if he's in rage and upset and out of control, but i will allways say, this is not ok and has crossed my personal boundaries.

    For public nd the internet. A lot of people make themself look like they haven't been educated.
    The anonymity is like alcohol, it often shows the truth about someone.

    A lot of gamers i dont like to play with if i'm honest.
    An if they would speak to me like this, they need to be prepared for a authentic reaction with no waranty of political correctness.

    If people think they can act like they want and dont care, i am not the one who stands back and shut my mouth. NEVER!

  • @vorondil1 said in Words of Wisdom... player behaviour:

    ...Griefing is when you don't care about the loot (that's the Achiever), you just care about making the other guy lose.

    This definition of griefing is way too broad. You might as well say PVP is griefing.

    Nobody plays Halo:MCC multiplayer for any other reason than trying to make the other person/team lose. There is no loot to be gained. Should we then conclude that everyone playing is a griefer? Is anyone who wants to play Sea of Thieves just to PVP a griefer?

    That's the thing about PVP... People enjoy winning more than losing and for someone to win, someone else needs to lose. There is nothing wrong with a player partaking in PVP in a game that is designed for PVP and doing it only because they want to win and therefore make someone else lose. That isn't griefing.

    It makes no difference whether or not the winner cares about the loser's loot. In fact, this game was explicitly designed such that PVP doesn't depend on any loot. Loot doesn't provide any benefit to PVP and everyone starts the game exactly the same every time. So if someone is playing just for PVP, there is no reason built into the game for them to care about the loot; so playing that way doesn't make them a griefer.

    That is the issue... People playing this game that just want to PVE seem to care a lot about the loot and they take it as a personal offense when someone playing the game just for the PVP doesn't care about their loot. Don't cry, "Griefer!" just because someone is killing you just for the sake of winning. That is the point of PVP. They don't need your loot.

  • @little-squash said in Words of Wisdom... player behaviour:

    Don't cry, "Griefer!" just because someone is killing you just for the sake of winning. That is the point of PVP. They don't need your loot.

    yep, I think we're saying the same thing with different words. Griefing as I tried to describe it is not "for the sake of winning." It's "for the sake of making the other player suffer." Subtle difference, but important. So the exact same actions (PVP, for instance) might be griefing, or might not be griefing, depending on the intent of the player. I think that real griefing as I'm thinking of it is actually quite rare in SoT. I think we agree much more than you think.

  • @piratecraggy

    I watched this earlier and thanks for reposting it here, I think it's a great topic for discussion amongst the community because it then sets out what we feel is acceptable or something we should try and discourage.

    I agree with @x-Crowheart-x that trash talk in gaming is a reflection of similar behaviour found in real life, most specifically competitive sports, it's a form of verbal aggression which runs alongside the actual competition, precedes it or follows it. Possibly a little like drivers, safe inside their cars, curse wholeheartedly at that one driver who forgets to indicate.

    PvP in Sea of Thieves is a similar type of competitive situation, so I'm guessing that this might be why we're experiencing it. It's not 'because' of PvP and PvP in and of itself is not toxic, the verbal aggressiveness, however, can be. Opponents are not just 'objects' which need to be overcome, they're other human beings.

    As with anything, it's a behaviour under people's control, it's something that's possible to train yourself out of and it can have a devastating effect on other players - female gamers, children, more casual players, those not used to 'competitive' environments gaming or otherwise.

    So really, it is up to us.

  • @vorondil1 said in Words of Wisdom... player behaviour:

    ...the exact same actions (PVP, for instance) might be griefing, or might not be griefing, depending on the intent of the player...

    And who am I to think I can determine the "intent" of another player?

  • @piratecraggy I left an upvote. Not for you though ;)

    Thanks for the link.

  • @luciansanchez82 said in Words of Wisdom... player behaviour:

    @piratecraggy I left an upvote. Not for you though ;)

    Thanks for the link.

    Yip.. like & subscribe @captain-faicore youtube channel.
    And remember to click the bell icon!

    Seriously though
    I felt as a topic.... & from the well respected Falcore , that this needed wider discussion.
    To kick start the conversation between ourselves, to see the common ground, & how best to approach such behaviour in the future.
    As @KattTruewalker mentioned "It is up to us"

  • @little-squash now you understand...for this reason I have never accused anyone of griefing. If people seem to be acting maliciously, then I might just ask (genuinely), "Why did you do [fill in the blank]?" Sometimes they stop and we get a full conversation, other times it does nothing and I just shrug and move on.

    The point of my post was not a "how-to" guide to identify and deal with griefing. It was an attempt to describe what it is as a psychological phenomenon.

  • @katttruewalker

    Exactly! The verbal aggression has become so prevalent and common place in competitive situations offline and online, it has become a norm when it should not be. It is being falsely condoned as it is being seen too much a part of the way things are and mistakenly how it should be. Like you said it is up to all of us to not allow this to be true. Unless we manage to maintain control of ourselves, set the example, and help each other find a better way to play, it will only get worse.

    Like mentioned game developers do have a major role to play when it comes to acceptable behavior in their games. A single update to Sea of Thieves did dramatically change player behavior. I think there has been some wrong signals given, maybe unintentionally, recently despite what was spoken out against player toxicity. However, it is up to each and everyone of us to keep playing the best way possible. The game and its builders only set the stage for us to play on. We choose how we act and the performance others will experience.

  • @piratecraggy Absolutely. We're all responsible for the way we act and behave. The fact we're competing in a video game gives us no excuse to act disrespectfully.

    Personally, I've never lost my temper with someone over a videogame. It just seems like such a silly way to act to me. I understand being competitive and "heat of the moment", but everyone's capable of competing whilst holding themselves to a certain standard. Morals are a wonderful thing.

  • @sardukar1234

    You aren't entitled to respect in game/ or in life. (Entitlement to Respect", as in "the world owes me")
    You are given respect by others for your own actions & behaviour.
    Respect is earned.

  • @sardukar1234

    No amount of bullying is ever acceptable! Measles can be prevented by a vaccine. The only vaccine against bullying is teaching the difference of right and wrong, learning the proper way to be and behave, especially when it comes to treating others. It is identifying bullying when it happens, calling it out, and never, ever allowing it to be ok in any situation.

  • @sardukar1234

    You are entitled to your opinion.
    You will continue to act the way you do.
    So there is no point continuing a discussion with you where you are going off topic.
    If you wish to discuss "Boredom" etc.. start a new thread.

  • @sardukar1234 @PirateCraggy perhaps I'm a bit confused -- my belief is that we all have basic human dignity and deserve "respect" (in the sense of right treatment) until proven otherwise. Are you guys using "respect" in a different sense?

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