Rare Is Focus Testing Sea of Thieves to Death - By William Herschel

There are a lot of problems with the core gameplay loop mostly centering around the lack of variety. I don't know why they even bothered to include the Athena Quests in their current incarnation because its just more of the same with a single special chest at the end. Why bother?

If the "Fall Snails" update after the Arena contains the quest rework that this game needs, then it will be arriving after more than a year post launch and post alpha feedback repeatedly warning Rare that the variety for the main loop was missing.

Every other game that doesn't have any kind of power level progression at least tries to change things up to keep things fresh. Each trading company should be throwing some new mechanic or twist at the player every 5 reputation levels. By the time you are in the 40+ area, you should have a list of different possible variants you could encounter which all require different strategy or tools to complete.

@br0crastinat0r it wasn't off topic, pretty interesting observation.

Think of cargo runs, the new quest added into the game. What is the core idea behind cargo runs? You take cargo from an NPC and deliver it to another NPC. There are twists in it, sure, but the gameplay challenge that is posed to the player is: can you take these items to this npc? That is a fetch quest in a nutshell.

Even describing the other quests in a small sentence makes them look deeper than Cargo Runs. GH: Dig up a treasure from the spot marked with an X / Dig up a treasure from a spot after solving a riddle. OOS: Defeat a crew of skelletons. MA: Find animals and bring them to an NPC.

These quests also have twists in them to make them a little bit more varied, but in the end, the point still stands, the core gameplay of the base quests, as repetitive as they are, aren't inherently fetch quests, but you can make the argument that the new Cargo Run quest is, indeed, a fetch quest.

So basically, you can bsolutely design a good quest for players to do, but it has to be the core of the gameplay challenge posed to the player. The part that you have to return the loot to an outpost is a bit on the nose, but it's not part of the quest, it's just how SoT handles XP and Gold rewards.

@acebead40319154 said in Rare Is Focus Testing Sea of Thieves to Death - By William Herschel:

Either you dont play sea of thieves or you play a lot. Posts like these come from people who play a lot generally which means 'the game play loop' must be okay.

This is a very strange statement, are you implying that because I played the game for 9 (+ 5 in alpha) months the game is fine? That is a horrible leap in logic.

The gameplay loop is not ok, it has been reflected in the earliest of reviews for this game, as well as many feedback points brought by alpha players and the current situation of the game's community. SoT did not achieve the goals it strived for with it's release, it had a lukewarm critical reception and the streaming community is on health support, which was one of the selling points of the game "a game that is as fun to watch as it is to play". There is a handful of content creators for SoT, some of which have less than 5k subscribers and the others, like Zylbrad, have moved on to other games.

All of the issues above can be traced back to a lack of focus on designing the core gameplay loop, it is shallow and barebones still 9 months after release, which does no wonders for streamers and content creators. In other words, I'm "not completely wrong" I'm nearly absolutely right.

@ottersteeth as much as I have a genuine disdain for extra credit I can at least agree with the following:

"The quests themselves need to be something the players want to do inherently, not just for the reward"

I wouldnt disagree to the OP, but...

You can approach it the other way.
I said it often when i argue against more progression, because i'm noway into it. I do it yes, but i dont focus on it, it happens by the way i play the game and for sure do i play with a crew and we do this and that to progress, but...
I for myself and when i am soloing, what is not often, approach the world a little different.
And my favorite playstyle is possible and was enriched lately.
I dont buy a journey. I stock up my ship and most of the time i found a message in a bottle.
Immersion begins.
I do it the immersive way and a little bit roleplayish. The message in a bottle lead to somewhere else, i maybe find more than what the message lead to, sometimes i find a worthy boutille blinking in the sand or i see a ship, a Meg, a Skaleon, nebula, a Fort...
Many things can be explored and lead to new situations. You often find chests others tapped or just spawn random. You also can find undelivered Cargo.
Yes it's often not the case and everything is like everyday, but it's sure also what you make of it.
And progression is just an option, you dont need to progress to unlock something or become equal strong.
So it's not mandatory to progress. It's only about bling and fluff.
And now i cannot say more how good it would be if we get more sandbox mechanics and tools to jump in a Match of Sea of Thieves.
I would have not implemented 3 factions. I would have created only messages in a bottle you need to find yourself, with maybe riddles or maps and allways to find Treasures, but some are guarded by the skeletons of the old crew.
Merchants/ Smugglers; ok, gimme a workorder.
But let me decide what i do with it, deliver, sell and steal, smuggle, use it by myself... whatever.
Ok about a reputation system for Outposts/Regions.
Ok to have to "grind" gold to buy cosmetics.
Ok to some goals / commendations for events and dubloons and timed rewards.
I'm not against that in general.
But focus on achievements and progression is nothing i'm interested in.
I'm interested in Sandbox gameplay, player interactions, interdependencies, cooperative and competetive. We may want a moral system and bountyhunting. Good and bad and neutral Pirates regarding their approach on other players. Cosmetics that excluse each other. Seadog or Admiral? Not both. Decisions to make.
Betray in Golden Sands and get rewarded in Galleons Grade.
Be well known on Plunder and laughed at in Dagger Tooth.
Pay more tax there and less elsewhere.
Buy ressources, restock, goldsink mechanics.
Limitations are needed to have nobody be able to buy Rare XD
Eh you know, i mean it's crystal clear that if you sit on some Millions of Gold, you feel you should be able to buy a whole Region with 2 Outpost and become the Gouverneur.
Pirates need to stay Pirates and be in need to plunder and search for treasure. I dont know how or what to create, but it would be cool and add to the game, or not?!

I like playing SoT, i didnt grind, i'm still no PL and i sure know sometimes i need a break, even i play just a little fraction of gamers who were PL some weeks after launch or A10 in a short time.
The game isnt bad or completely bad designed, it would profit from more sandbox elements like we have now with the Skaleon, different Megs, nebula.
I hope we see more
Oh and music, Yeah maybe a silly feature, but i like it very much.
Does it get old someday? Maybe a little, but they hopefully add more Songs and more Instruments like the fiddle, a tin whistle or even a piano in the captains cabin on a Galleon. Immersive stuff is always good. Let us call for Meg in the Fog or a Skaleon in the Storm.
What else?
Bury your chest, write a paper or a riddle, paint a map, leave it at an outpost or give a hint somewhere.
If someone find it you get known in that outpost better and become more lege... epic XD and pay less tax, got better contracts to smuggle something.

Many ways to enrich this beautiful game.
I dont disagree to the OP, but i refuse to give up on this, because i have fun playing it.

This post is maybe a ltitle confusing, sorry not my motherlanguage.

edited

@bugaboo-bill Your post was excellent.

You're exactly the type of player that would benefit from an overhaul in the quest design, because you don't play to grind, you play for the world and the gameplay. If every message in a bottle can give you a miriad of different quests with different challenges (that isn't just variations on a base quest but with more treasure to dig or captains to kill) certainly you will feel always motivated to keep playing the quests for the variety of things you may do. My main criticism is shallow base game quests, the main 4: athena's, order of souls and merchant's alliance and gold hoarders lack variety in their quest pool, meaning that players feel like they are grinding repetitive tasks rather than experiencing great gameplay moments.

I also advocated for many other tweaks in the world design to allow for improved sandbox gameplay, systems that incentivise players to use their gold to interact with other players and create organic markets, different world areas with different environmental challenges and lore for players to discover. We think quite alike if you really think about it.

@acebead40319154 I'm concerned with the game's longevity, sure we still got faithful players but really look at the state of the game.

StarCraft 2's streamer WinterSC gets more viewers every day he streams than the entire sum of all Sea of Thieves stream viewers in the release day of a new update. StarCraft 2 is a 8 year old game that gets very few updates per year.

I'm not telling you to judge a game's quality by the number of viewers it gets on twitch/mixer, the point here is longevity, and the thing that keeps a game going is the community and it's interest in learning how to play, interaction with content creators, stories/critiques/reviews/gameplay... it keeps the heart of the playerbase beating and motivated to play.

StarCraft has inumerous systems to be mastered and it creates great content to be shared around on youtube/twitch because the depth allows for a myriad of ways to create new information about what is estabilished through the game's depth. SoT's shallowness can only keep the players peek attention during new content updates because the previous set of content is already exausted. That is basically my point, it's not just making new engaging content for the old veteran and faithful players, its for new potential players as well.

@urihamrayne
SC2 is a bit unfair to compare to.
I mean starcraft is a very old, but nearly perfectly balanced game.
Sc1 is cult, the story, the gameplay and had build a huge fanbase over many many years. The 8 years of SC2 feel like it was released 2 years ago as a new starcraft, but starcraft stands for it's own and became a big thing and is serious eSports.

About the part about content creators, community events etc we need better tools to get players away from just grinding achievements.
It's also about oneself an how to approach games. If you reduce playing games on grinding achievements, something is wrong imho. But many do so.
No doubt Rare could habe done it better referring to sandbox gameplay and mechanics.
I dont know what they have for the future and we still dont know if or how the Arena is connected to the Adventure mode.
Also they seem to have some more for Adventure mode also.
Fingers crossed it will be cool and fun.

It's very hard to find players who arent into progression and achieving.
I'm oldsql gamer, i may approach things different and i'm for sure not their Main target audience.

@urihamrayne Wow this is a fantastic post that encapusalte everything thats worng with SoT. While given the most Damning Evidence for the source of the Problems. Like @BETSILL I too had suspected this to be the case as the became more and more obvious that the Leaders of Rare where in way over there Heads and etheir lacked an overeaching "Vision" or simply incapable of understanding how to go about achiving that "Vision" or both as it's also abundantly clear don't play and never created a Game of this Genre before. This is made clear by the contrictory mechnics in the game. For Example the Rowboat for Forsaken Shores. Where it's Primary use was to faciltate safe travel to the Volcanic Island and would be a Valueable and almost Required asset but due to the Fact that it was made both a Limited Resource and a Disposible Item this funtion proved pointless however the rowboat seconday function did prove usful.

It's Clear there are many Talented people at Rare with many Good idea's. But nothing they original promote was never given. Like the Voyage System which they first Marketed as a "Goonies" inspired adventure with long treks to hunt down treasure by solving Riddles down to hidden caverns or unexplored island while avoiding Traps, Monters and other Players in which success would bring you Greatness as your story would become Legend. What we got was a simple fetch style Loot Grinder where the Majority of the Loot itself offers no Inherent Gamplay Value as it does not have any direct Impact on gamplay but instead act as a simple collectable item for a meaningless progression system as well as being part of a static game driven Enconomy with no persist money sinks Leading to an EoL/Apathy Problem.

The Real uniqueness of this Game came from the idea of a Social Driven Organic Gamplay which is the core of sandbox ideology and is also found in most MMORPG. But do to the Lack of basic and workable Social structures Such as A workable social Hub, Player Driven Economy and/or Social Hiarchy along with Restrictive and limited Player interactions Hindered and Limited these Experiances. It does seem that some tried to push these concept which is Evidence in the to closes things we have to a Social hub Which are the FOTD and AF Hideout. Althou player can meet up and interact there these occurances are Rare and highly limiting. Another unique concept was the idea of given Emotes an Effect in game with the Make Freinds Emote. All these thing failed to be expanded on or fully relized.

So with both the Voyaging System failing to promote player interactions or meaningful exploration and Loot having no lasting value to gamplay along with poor and contridictory desions this game fails to deliver on what it intially promised.

This is why I came to the Forums as i saw that players need to understand these Issue and work hard to promote positive and constructive feeback and take all those idea and organise them together in the form of a Proper Content Drop in hopes Rare would take note and be inspired to go in the right direction.

So Far SS update was a step in that direction as it did Give many what we ask for 8 mounth ago. Espically for me as a Solo player i now have a much more lively world to play in. But still Many of the Core Fundamental problems remain and Rare seem to only continue to make discions that further worsen these issues.

It is my Hope that we as a Community can come together and push Rare to solve these issues by both outling them and giving ideas and Solutions as I want this game to succed in delivering on the promises they origally made.

@enf0rcer said in Rare Is Focus Testing Sea of Thieves to Death - By William Herschel:

What we got was a simple fetch style Loot Grinder where the Majority of the Loot itself offers no Inherent Gamplay Value as it does not have any direct Impact on gamplay but instead act as a simple collectable item for a meaningless progression system as well as being part of a static game driven Enconomy with no persist money sinks Leading to an EoL/Apathy Problem.

On that topic I was tinkering on some systems that were a compromise of consumable items and permanent items to be used as tradable goods to create a market around players, so they have a new use for their gold besides cosmetics. Stuff like:

The Athena's Loot: After returning any item that grants reputation for Athena to the mysterious stranger, players will obtain new items through random chanse that don't affect gameplay, however can't be bought from vendors, these are random from each chest/trinket/anything given to the mysterious stranger and vary in rarity. These should be the only tradable items for the Market system.

• Relics

Equipments that give players special animations when equipped. Only one may be equiped at a time.
Example 1: Relic of the Dammned - Players hover instead of walking, have glowing ghostly particles when attacking and vanish into the air when are downed instead of falling down.
Example 2: Relic of the Roar - Players leave trailes of fire blazed ground where they walk, animations have fiery effects and go out in flames whenever are killed

• Journals

Books that change the appearance of the quest maps in your voyage wheel. Only one may be equipped at a time.
Example 1: Journal of the Dreaded Frozenbeard - Changes the appearance of the voyage maps to frozen slabs of ice.
Example 2: Journal of the Undead Mutineer - Changes the appearance of the vayage maps to bones with inscriptions.

• Recipes

Sheets that change the drink that you fill your tarkand from whatever object you choose to refill it with. Only one may be equiped at a time.
Example 1: Bewitching Brew - Causes your drunkness to have extra witchcrafty visual effects.
Example 2: Fiery Brew - Causes your drunkness to have extra flaming visual effects.

• Flasks

Consumables that grant your pirate a visual appearance change for the duration of the session. Only one effect may take place at a time, consuming another flask removes previous effect.
Example 1: Flask of Animalia - Gives your pirate animal characteristics
Example 2: Flask of the Moon - Gives your pirate a dark feature that makes you seem like you are always in night time.

• Powders

Items that chenge your ship's visual effects for your cannon fire. Only one may be equiped at a time.
Example 1: Chinese Powder - Makes your cannon contact explosions become firework themed

Example 2: Ghost Powder - Makes your cannon contact explosions become spooky and ghostly.

• Wooden Heart

Items that change the sinking animation of your ship. Only one may be equipped at a time.
Example 1: Heart of Iron - Your ship becomes metallic and rusts as it sinks.
Example 2: Heart of Eternity - Your ship desintegrates into ghostly particles as it sinks.

• Cursed Exilir

Consumables that change the effects of your weapon animations for the duration of the session. Only one effect may take place at a time, consuming another elixir removes previous effect and no vfx has any interaction on gameplay.
Example 1: Elixir of Thunder - Enchants weapons with a shocking vfx for swings and bullets.
Example 2: Elixir of Frost - Enchants weapons with a chilling vfx for swings and bullets.

@wilbobaggns said in Rare Is Focus Testing Sea of Thieves to Death - By William Herschel:

are you aware of what a 'run-on sentence' is?

If you used some punctuation and more effective sentence structure this whole post would be a lot easier to read and grok.

You must be fun at parties.

@urihamrayne said in Rare Is Focus Testing Sea of Thieves to Death - By William Herschel:

@enf0rcer said in Rare Is Focus Testing Sea of Thieves to Death - By William Herschel:

What we got was a simple fetch style Loot Grinder where the Majority of the Loot itself offers no Inherent Gamplay Value as it does not have any direct Impact on gamplay but instead act as a simple collectable item for a meaningless progression system as well as being part of a static game driven Enconomy with no persist money sinks Leading to an EoL/Apathy Problem.

On that topic I was tinkering on some systems that were a compromise of consumable items and permanent items to be used as tradable goods to create a market around players, so they have a new use for their gold besides cosmetics. Stuff like:

The Athena's Loot: After returning any item that grants reputation for Athena to the mysterious stranger, players will obtain new items through random chanse that don't affect gameplay, however can't be bought from vendors, these are random from each chest/trinket/anything given to the mysterious stranger and vary in rarity. These should be the only tradable items for the Market system.

• Relics

Equipments that give players special animations when equipped. Only one may be equiped at a time.
Example 1: Relic of the Dammned - Players hover instead of walking, have glowing ghostly particles when attacking and vanish into the air when are downed instead of falling down.
Example 2: Relic of the Roar - Players leave trailes of fire blazed ground where they walk, animations have fiery effects and go out in flames whenever are killed

• Journals

Books that change the appearance of the quest maps in your voyage wheel. Only one may be equipped at a time.
Example 1: Journal of the Dreaded Frozenbeard - Changes the appearance of the voyage maps to frozen slabs of ice.
Example 2: Journal of the Undead Mutineer - Changes the appearance of the vayage maps to bones with inscriptions.

• Recipes

Sheets that change the drink that you fill your tarkand from whatever object you choose to refill it with. Only one may be equiped at a time.
Example 1: Bewitching Brew - Causes your drunkness to have extra witchcrafty visual effects.
Example 2: Fiery Brew - Causes your drunkness to have extra flaming visual effects.

• Flasks

Consumables that grant your pirate a visual appearance change for the duration of the session. Only one effect may take place at a time, consuming another flask removes previous effect.
Example 1: Flask of Animalia - Gives your pirate animal characteristics
Example 2: Flask of the Moon - Gives your pirate a dark feature that makes you seem like you are always in night time.

• Powders

Items that chenge your ship's visual effects for your cannon fire. Only one may be equiped at a time.
Example 1: Chinese Powder - Makes your cannon contact explosions become firework themed

Example 2: Ghost Powder - Makes your cannon contact explosions become spooky and ghostly.

• Wooden Heart

Items that change the sinking animation of your ship. Only one may be equipped at a time.
Example 1: Heart of Iron - Your ship becomes metallic and rusts as it sinks.
Example 2: Heart of Eternity - Your ship desintegrates into ghostly particles as it sinks.

• Cursed Exilir

Consumables that change the effects of your weapon animations for the duration of the session. Only one effect may take place at a time, consuming another elixir removes previous effect and no vfx has any interaction on gameplay.
Example 1: Elixir of Thunder - Enchants weapons with a shocking vfx for swings and bullets.
Example 2: Elixir of Frost - Enchants weapons with a chilling vfx for swings and bullets.

Wow these are all fantastic idea's many i very simular to what I and many others proposed in other post such as Adornments and Ornaments and Pirate Bling as a couple pf examples. These Idea's would go great in My Rogue Wave Project as part of it seeks to establish a more player driven Economy. If you can Make a post or series of post on for these idea's i will Gladly add them to My Communty Ideas MasterList and would greatly appreate any feedback and insight or help of any kind to deveolpe that system. If you will also allow me to add any of your post as references. Your contributions will be greatly appreciated.

@enf0rcer You may add these ideas if you want, though they are part of a greater pont from here. Do whatever you want with them.

@SwimPlatypus7 In the future there will be no games that take SoT as a reference on how to make engaging quests, but you will find people referencing the best quests from burning crusade or from ever quest. You will never see anyone reference SoT for sandbox mechanics, but you will see multiple references to GTA, FarCry and RDR. You will never see anyone referencing how SoT does player horizontal progression, but I'm fairly certain you will see people make reference of Guild Wars 2. Why? Because these games do what SoT tried to do, but much better executed.

Do you think we suggest features from successful games because we want SoT to be a failure? Most of the suggestion from people aren't just WoW cloned ideas, but it's the best parts of the most interesting decisions from games such as that to be implemented to SoT, because they work.

You can't be in such denial to believe that there is no issue with the core gameplay loop of SoT, it's the focal point of the gameplay, this is SoT simplified: you find treasures to increase your reputation in the factions in order to become a pirate legend. The primary way to find such treasures is incredibly shallow, only 3 quests (4 with cargo runs) with a few variations, such as increased number of repeated tasks you must do within the same voyage or a small gameplay twist. The secondary way to find treasures, which is through world events like sea monsters, skelleton ships, skelleton forts and pvp is more or less in a fairly decent spot after Shrouded Spoils, admitedly it was a pretty good update for thiss way of playing SoT. The destination for all this hard work is not a new way to play SoT, rather its an encore of everything you've done, a poor man's new game+, pirate legend was dissapointing to everyone, and continues to remain shallow, as players see themselves stocking gold for nothing due to lack of systems to grant them use for their wealth. People are upset that they have to replay the athena's journey, you think they would be more engaged in doing everything if the experience was fun and memorable? I'm certain people that play DarkSouls enjoy replaying through NG+ since the game itself is fun, right?

In the end, everything you said is a horrible mistake, please reevaluate your priorities in game design and criticism.

I buy the game for the adventures, because nobody will be better than another, for the spirit of discovering and mainly for the potential that it had.
The game still entertains me... maybe because I do not have much time to play or because playing in company makes it more bearable, but I wonder, once I get to Legend what will happen?

But clearly the game has a problem, and ignoring it does not make it disappear.. variety, economy and carrots.

Variety: that carrying out missions of different companies becomes somewhat less repetitive and boring. Missions mechanics, complex puzzles, emerging activities, dungeons, etc.

Economy: give the user more reasons to increase and spend their large amounts of gold.
The new customization of the boat is fine, but it is not enough and it is something that does not affect yourself.
Some examples, unblock movements, dances, places to visit, phrases to say, etc.

Carrots: real and updatable objectives. I always thought it would be great to have an unlockable quest line as you level up and that each update add new chapters to continue working to unlock. I mean, meet new places, discover the lore of the game, fight with bosses, unlock objects or unique clothes .. be impatient to know how the story continues (Rare is very good at telling stories).

I still hope that this comes in future updates.