All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...

@cnt-thelrox This is the main issue I notice with other Xbox players. You all keep thinking it’s like you’re a crippled getting into a fist fight with an mma fighter. It’s not the case at all. I can tell Xbox players from pc players easily and it’s not because of their lack of FPS advantage or smoother controls or some s**t, it’s because the moment things don’t go their way they stop trying and resort to calling other cheaters or griefers.

That’s the Xbox community nowadays and I’m glad I’m slowly transitioning to playing only pc. Keep talking about how pc players just keep yelling for console players to “git gud” well guess what I listened and now I can take on pretty much anyone, pc Xbox or whatever other platform they’ll eventually throw into the mix.

@aarghmaargho It’s almost like the story of the boy who cried wolf. I’ve been on Xbox for a lot of years and I guarantee you that these guys talking about SoT hackers are like the rest of the Xbox kiddos that I’ve played against. They’ve been complaining about losing to cheaters for years now, and crossplay is only now such a huge thing on Xbox so I’m pretty sure they’re still just blowing steam.

I’m not denying the existence of them, but I sure as hell ain’t gonna listen to these guys to find out the truth.

@dishingyou209 said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

FORCED crossplay is ridiculous. There is no harm in OPTIONAL crossplay....

But it doesn't solve the problem of keyboard and mouse.

First what happens when they add keyboard/mouse support to xbox. It's basically confirmed...

Second. What about PC players that use a controller?

Cross play has nothing to do with the problem being posited.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

What I find so interesting is the support for forced cross-play in a game where the majority of the community is apparently so against in-game items that provide vertical progression (any sort of 'benefit').

For those saying the differences are 'no big deal' I'm curious. How would you feel about an in-game item that PL gained access to that say, I dunno, increased turning radius? Or improved your target smoothing and tracking accuracy? Serious question.

It's even more interesting to see people argue that 'soon Xbox users can use a m/kb'. Which is essentially saying, 'soon, Xbox users will be able to spend real world money to acquire the advantages we already have in-game'. So again...are you guys ok if Rare decides to actually sell, for money, other in-game items that provide similar benefits? Or is it only spending money outside the game that should impact certain abilities? Another serious question.

That's a little bit different. The point of skill based vs vertical progression is that players that have been playing don't have a large advantage over new/casual players.

That isn't the same problem that controller/vs keyboard creates. Where the controller is objectively worse... many of those edge cases PC players will just have an upper hand.

Also disabling cross-play doesn't help PC players that use a controller. Its effectively the wrong solution for keyboard vs mouse dilemma.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky It's really not. The point of my thread was about the advantages or disadvantages being created.
The disparity exists...whether it exists because one player has played more hours or whether one player has purchased different hardware seems mute. Actually that's not true. It seems inverted. I would rather have an advantage because I've played more, over having an advantage based on my hardware.

It's different because devs have no control over input schemes, and there is a limit to how much "better" a player can be with them. Not to mention even PC players have different keyboards/mice, many of them can have subtle advantages over each other with macros.. more space on a desk for a mouse, better hardware for faster fps + potato mode.. etc etc.

Though none of these differences are as big as a flat damage increase from a vertical progression. Or potentially the resource game they are implementing more of. There will be edge cases where PC players will be at an advantage... but xbox players with XIM will have that also.

But as to you other point, yes disabling cross play doesn't help PC users who have a controller. But any PC user is already going to have a m k/b as well, so at least the choice is still left up to them. There is currently no choice for Xbox users, and even once m k/b support is added its certainly possible that many xbox users won't already own a m k/b they can use....nor will many have their console/tv setup in a place where it's even feasible to use. Not the greatest comparison in other words.

That's a rubbish argument. The problem is kb vs mouse than the solution has nothing to do with crossplay... the fact is if players have a choice in control scheme and if the difference is deemed big enough to allow for a split... the split should be based on the control scheme. There is no reason to do it any other way... and its flexible to support both PC/Xbox players having a choice.

There is XIM... which is effectively like buying a better keyboard for PC. And kb/m support for xbox was basically confirmed but no timeline was given. So xbox owners... like PC owners... have the option to get an external advantage like PC players by throwing money at their setup.

And as a PC player... I use controller a lot. So you can't make the assumption that PC players don't use it.

@riareth said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

That isn't the same problem that controller/vs keyboard creates. Where the controller is objectively worse... many of those edge cases PC players will just have an upper hand.

Also disabling cross-play doesn't help PC players that use a controller. Its effectively the wrong solution for keyboard vs mouse dilemma.

Assuming Rare can disable the mouse on the game for PC, the solution is have optional matchmaking on gamepad vs k/m. That way both PC players that play with gamepad and future Xboxers that play with k/m can be on the correct matchmaking pool.

Of course they can...

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@riareth said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

But it doesn't solve the problem of keyboard and mouse.

First what happens when they add keyboard/mouse support to xbox. It's basically confirmed...

Second. What about PC players that use a controller?

Cross play has nothing to do with the problem being posited.

According to this article when Microsoft fully adds K/M then each game will have to add support for it. And the article also says:

Microsoft encourages developers to monitor how mouse and keyboard players compete against gamepad players and make adjustments where necessary, while "highly suggesting" that use of mouse and keyboard should be used in separate matchmaking rules.

If Rare does add optional cross play for Xbox/PC it should also add to the matchmaking rules gamepad vs K/M when it's supported on the Xbox. And if it's possible to fully disable the mouse on PC for the game, then bring the PC players with gamepad into the gamepad pool.

^This.

MS is on the right track, because they're 'forced' (sorry, couldn't resist) to consider their entire user base. Rare, admittedly, does not. They've created a niche product. So while Rare may never remove forced crossplay, and may choose to disregard MS 'highly suggested' guidance of allowing separation between controller and m k/b users, it's definitely against what most people would consider better judgment.

Of course rare can do this... thats why there are forums for making suggestions... your point doesn't need to be said.

People need to stop worrying about the developers effort or technical limitations... thats not our problem here in the forums... describe a problem and a solution. The tehcnical details aren't our problem nor is figuring out whether or not rare will do something.

Not to mention their guidance may be more for stricter FPS games. Lets be real here, the difference with kb/m in SoT isn't nearly as bad as something like CoD or BF1.

Again, Rare can do as they wish, it's their game and kudos to any developer for sticking with their vision. Overall though, it seems like a poor choice for any game hoping for wider acclaim or acceptance.

That is rubbish. Many games that were once considered "niche" find large audiences... see dark souls.

And I don't see how this relates to control schemes. Their vision is largely isolated by how we play the game.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky First off, you assume some huge damage increase because of vertical progression. I can only think you mean of games like WoW, where there can be a huge disparity between both gear and player levels. The vast majority of PvP games that integrate vertical progression DO NOT create disparities as large as what you're claiming. They generally just create options for more varied play styles. Some will undoubtedly give slight bonuses over players who have progressed less, but let's be intellectually honest here. PvP games with progression have existed for over a decade. The best argument you have here is that Rare didn't want to do it, plain and simple, not that it can't be done and done well.

Thats not vertical progression. Thats normally what they call horizontal progression.

As to your second point....well, lol. "There is no reason to do it any other way" is an interesting argument, considering every game that's ever been made with cross play has literally done it a different way. There is literally no reason to do it THIS WAY. What exactly is the argument again for forced cross play?

Just because other developers solve an issue indirectly by disabling crossplay doesn't mean that was the best solution.

There is nothing wrong with cross play. Its an arbitrary distinction between console/pc devices so I don't see why we should care... beyond the disparity that kb/m vs controller creates. Which is a problem on PC anyway... your stuck with kb/m in many games because depending on the game... your at a severe disadvantage..

GoW4? Disable crossplay... great for console users... bad for PC users that use a controller with something like a steam machine... and then they are stuck with a smaller pool of controller users. So the one good thing about crossplay... is if lets say the developer were to solve the issue of kb/m vs controller by allowing matching based on input pc users would be more likely to choose a controller and have a larger pool of players to join. Its massively beneficial for all controller users, which from a developers standpoint... is the best solution. It makes more of your customers happy.

@dishingyou209 said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

If crossplay was OPTIONAL as it should be. There would be 3 server types. Xbox only. PC only and crossplay servers. Crossplay is a selling point and would still be a VIABLE OPTION to those who enjoy it.. nothing wrong with giving the consumer the choice....

stop it, this option is stupid and unnecessary. Matching should be based on controller.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@riareth said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

But it doesn't solve the problem of keyboard and mouse.

First what happens when they add keyboard/mouse support to xbox. It's basically confirmed...

Second. What about PC players that use a controller?

Cross play has nothing to do with the problem being posited.

According to this article when Microsoft fully adds K/M then each game will have to add support for it. And the article also says:

Microsoft encourages developers to monitor how mouse and keyboard players compete against gamepad players and make adjustments where necessary, while "highly suggesting" that use of mouse and keyboard should be used in separate matchmaking rules.

If Rare does add optional cross play for Xbox/PC it should also add to the matchmaking rules gamepad vs K/M when it's supported on the Xbox. And if it's possible to fully disable the mouse on PC for the game, then bring the PC players with gamepad into the gamepad pool.

^This.

MS is on the right track, because they're 'forced' (sorry, couldn't resist) to consider their entire user base. Rare, admittedly, does not. They've created a niche product. So while Rare may never remove forced crossplay, and may choose to disregard MS 'highly suggested' guidance of allowing separation between controller and m k/b users, it's definitely against what most people would consider better judgment.

Of course rare can do this... thats why there are forums for making suggestions... your point doesn't need to be said.

People need to stop worrying about the developers effort or technical limitations... thats not our problem here in the forums... describe a problem and a solution. The tehcnical details aren't our problem nor is figuring out whether or not rare will do something.

Not to mention their guidance may be more for stricter FPS games. Lets be real here, the difference with kb/m in SoT isn't nearly as bad as something like CoD or BF1.

Again, Rare can do as they wish, it's their game and kudos to any developer for sticking with their vision. Overall though, it seems like a poor choice for any game hoping for wider acclaim or acceptance.

That is rubbish. Many games that were once considered "niche" find large audiences... see dark souls.

And I don't see how this relates to control schemes. Their vision is largely isolated by how we play the game.

Yes, many games that begin as a 'niche' game eventually find a larger audience. But seriously...you don't see how the issue of control schemes and how the apparent dissatisfaction expressed in these forums might just translate into how widely accepted or loved a game is? Well that's rubbish, as you say. Maybe, you know, try harder?

As to whether my points need to be said, I'll take that under advisement. Lol.

I didn't say the control scheme didn't impact players.. I said its marginal and if anything is done matching should be based on control scheme not platform.

For the most part I think most players perceive their lack of skill first as a problem with some other players advantage...

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@riareth said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

But it doesn't solve the problem of keyboard and mouse.

First what happens when they add keyboard/mouse support to xbox. It's basically confirmed...

Second. What about PC players that use a controller?

Cross play has nothing to do with the problem being posited.

According to this article when Microsoft fully adds K/M then each game will have to add support for it. And the article also says:

Microsoft encourages developers to monitor how mouse and keyboard players compete against gamepad players and make adjustments where necessary, while "highly suggesting" that use of mouse and keyboard should be used in separate matchmaking rules.

If Rare does add optional cross play for Xbox/PC it should also add to the matchmaking rules gamepad vs K/M when it's supported on the Xbox. And if it's possible to fully disable the mouse on PC for the game, then bring the PC players with gamepad into the gamepad pool.

^This.

MS is on the right track, because they're 'forced' (sorry, couldn't resist) to consider their entire user base. Rare, admittedly, does not. They've created a niche product. So while Rare may never remove forced crossplay, and may choose to disregard MS 'highly suggested' guidance of allowing separation between controller and m k/b users, it's definitely against what most people would consider better judgment.

Of course rare can do this... thats why there are forums for making suggestions... your point doesn't need to be said.

People need to stop worrying about the developers effort or technical limitations... thats not our problem here in the forums... describe a problem and a solution. The tehcnical details aren't our problem nor is figuring out whether or not rare will do something.

Not to mention their guidance may be more for stricter FPS games. Lets be real here, the difference with kb/m in SoT isn't nearly as bad as something like CoD or BF1.

Again, Rare can do as they wish, it's their game and kudos to any developer for sticking with their vision. Overall though, it seems like a poor choice for any game hoping for wider acclaim or acceptance.

That is rubbish. Many games that were once considered "niche" find large audiences... see dark souls.

And I don't see how this relates to control schemes. Their vision is largely isolated by how we play the game.

Yes, many games that begin as a 'niche' game eventually find a larger audience. But seriously...you don't see how the issue of control schemes and how the apparent dissatisfaction expressed in these forums might just translate into how widely accepted or loved a game is? Well that's rubbish, as you say. Maybe, you know, try harder?

As to whether my points need to be said, I'll take that under advisement. Lol.

I didn't say the control scheme didn't impact players.. I said its marginal and if anything is done matching should be based on control scheme not platform.

I'm all for that. Control scheme is the primary issue. But it's one of many others that are impacted by cross play. Any time a game ends up having to balance minor issues like graphical fidelity and draw distances its just another reason why I don't condone forced cross play.

Which is something that PC players have lived with for ever. There are massive disparities for PC players between capable hardware / kb+m quality / disk speed.

I don't see any solution for that at all... and I don't think any of that is as big a difference as the control scheme... not to mention its not like xbox players don't suffer from this.. xbox one vs xbox one s vs xbox one x... + external drive speed (I've got a 1tb ssd I install games on my xonex..)

But you are correct, SoT is somewhat unique in that its not as severely impacted as other PvP games. But the impact is there and has been since day one. Whatever solution Rare is working on, whether it's matchmaking based on controller type, is coming FAR too late. A simple fix to make cross play optional months ago would probably have been better than EVENTUALLY addressing the issue in some other manner. And they very well may be waiting until m k/b support is rolled out for console. While that makes a certain kind of sense in terms of efficiency and long-term thinking, I can't help but think they've done more harm than good by delaying a decision here. Nevermind that the differences are 'minor' to some. In a game that touts equality of experience, minor issues like this can be a real thorn in many peoples sides. These constant threads should be evidence of that.

I honestly don't think the control scheme is as big of a problem as most PVE players are bad at PVP... The vast majority of players I've faced off wouldn't have survived even I was using a controller. The vast majority lack coordination with their team, skills with sailing, tactics engaging another crew.

Even when we are dying just as much as them... if not more... they still sink. Not to recently my entire team was dead while the 1 guy we killed was on the ferry screaming about his sinking ship.. we re spawned before they could figure out a way to sink our ship faster and saved it.

There is FAR more that goes into winning than winning a lot of 1:1 fights. Its a marginal difference at most. If they reduced the effectiveness of bunny hopping it would make this difference significantly less impactful (alternatively if xbox players realize they too can remap and bunny hop like pros...)

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky First off, you assume some huge damage increase because of vertical progression. I can only think you mean of games like WoW, where there can be a huge disparity between both gear and player levels. The vast majority of PvP games that integrate vertical progression DO NOT create disparities as large as what you're claiming. They generally just create options for more varied play styles. Some will undoubtedly give slight bonuses over players who have progressed less, but let's be intellectually honest here. PvP games with progression have existed for over a decade. The best argument you have here is that Rare didn't want to do it, plain and simple, not that it can't be done and done well.

Thats not vertical progression. Thats normally what they call horizontal progression.

As to your second point....well, lol. "There is no reason to do it any other way" is an interesting argument, considering every game that's ever been made with cross play has literally done it a different way. There is literally no reason to do it THIS WAY. What exactly is the argument again for forced cross play?

Just because other developers solve an issue indirectly by disabling crossplay doesn't mean that was the best solution.

There is nothing wrong with cross play. Its an arbitrary distinction between console/pc devices so I don't see why we should care... beyond the disparity that kb/m vs controller creates. Which is a problem on PC anyway... your stuck with kb/m in many games because depending on the game... your at a severe disadvantage..

GoW4? Disable crossplay... great for console users... bad for PC users that use a controller with something like a steam machine... and then they are stuck with a smaller pool of controller users. So the one good thing about crossplay... is if lets say the developer were to solve the issue of kb/m vs controller by allowing matching based on input pc users would be more likely to choose a controller and have a larger pool of players to join. Its massively beneficial for all controller users, which from a developers standpoint... is the best solution. It makes more of your customers happy.

Sorry, I meant horizontal progression, my mistake.

And yes, there is nothing wrong with cross play. But historically speaking, the only real solution has been to disable it in most PvP centric games (or have an option). Yes, this is primarily down the control scheme, but there are other identifiable disparities beyond control scheme, especially in more competitive PvP games. When things like the level of foliage and the draw distance vary, that creates noticeable advantages or disadvantages. And yes, those disparities have always existed between one PC and another, but they never have for consoles. Some people buy consoles for that very reason. And for the greater anti-cheat protection. Forcing cross-play really does undermine the value of the console to some, whether you agree or not. It's not just about control scheme.

That hasn't been the only solution. Its been the popular solution and generally widely implemented leaving out most PC players that want to use a controller. I'd love to use my PC in the living room on something like battlefront with a controller.. on PC this is basically a non option.

Also... it may not be just about control scheme but consoles have differences now. SoT is on 2 different tiers of console.

Sea of Thieves is far more geared towards a PC setup than console. It uses a first-person perspective and the game features tons of different equipment that benefits greatly from hotkeys.

It's not like the game has a history on console and all of a sudden PC is introduced and imbalances the whole deal. If an objective third party well-versed in gaming as a whole but with no knowledge of Sea of Thieves specifically saw the game, they'd assume it's a PC game.

If anything, console players need to request full KB/M support in SoT. It is CLEARLY the way the game is meant to be played. This is coming from a hardcore controller Gears 4 PC player.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky First off, you assume some huge damage increase because of vertical progression. I can only think you mean of games like WoW, where there can be a huge disparity between both gear and player levels. The vast majority of PvP games that integrate vertical progression DO NOT create disparities as large as what you're claiming. They generally just create options for more varied play styles. Some will undoubtedly give slight bonuses over players who have progressed less, but let's be intellectually honest here. PvP games with progression have existed for over a decade. The best argument you have here is that Rare didn't want to do it, plain and simple, not that it can't be done and done well.

Thats not vertical progression. Thats normally what they call horizontal progression.

As to your second point....well, lol. "There is no reason to do it any other way" is an interesting argument, considering every game that's ever been made with cross play has literally done it a different way. There is literally no reason to do it THIS WAY. What exactly is the argument again for forced cross play?

Just because other developers solve an issue indirectly by disabling crossplay doesn't mean that was the best solution.

There is nothing wrong with cross play. Its an arbitrary distinction between console/pc devices so I don't see why we should care... beyond the disparity that kb/m vs controller creates. Which is a problem on PC anyway... your stuck with kb/m in many games because depending on the game... your at a severe disadvantage..

GoW4? Disable crossplay... great for console users... bad for PC users that use a controller with something like a steam machine... and then they are stuck with a smaller pool of controller users. So the one good thing about crossplay... is if lets say the developer were to solve the issue of kb/m vs controller by allowing matching based on input pc users would be more likely to choose a controller and have a larger pool of players to join. Its massively beneficial for all controller users, which from a developers standpoint... is the best solution. It makes more of your customers happy.

Sorry, I meant horizontal progression, my mistake.

And yes, there is nothing wrong with cross play. But historically speaking, the only real solution has been to disable it in most PvP centric games (or have an option). Yes, this is primarily down the control scheme, but there are other identifiable disparities beyond control scheme, especially in more competitive PvP games. When things like the level of foliage and the draw distance vary, that creates noticeable advantages or disadvantages. And yes, those disparities have always existed between one PC and another, but they never have for consoles. Some people buy consoles for that very reason. And for the greater anti-cheat protection. Forcing cross-play really does undermine the value of the console to some, whether you agree or not. It's not just about control scheme.

That hasn't been the only solution. Its been the popular solution and generally widely implemented leaving out most PC players that want to use a controller. I'd love to use my PC in the living room on something like battlefront with a controller.. on PC this is basically a non option.

Also... it may not be just about control scheme but consoles have differences now. SoT is on 2 different tiers of console.

Ah, I understand it now. You're a PC player who would benefit from cross-play, because you now get to be on the same server with MORE controller users. I get it. It's BETTER for you.

Actually I'm both. I use a console in my living room and a PC in my office. It would be flat out better to have a controller only option for lan parties where there could potentially be a mix of devices... where everyone is using a controller... or just a bunch of mixed devices over the internet where... everyone is using a controller.

If there is a real issue with PvP using controllers... then matchmaking based on that control scheme is FAR more beneficial than matchmaking on platform.

On the other hand, console users who bought a closed system, and pay an additional yearly fee for an 'improved' online service feel that being forced to play with other PC users would be worse for them. Whether that be because of PC hardware advantages, a higher percentage of cheaters on PC, or any other reason. In other words, it's WORSE for them.

Again 2 tiers of consoles exist for those users. They are no longer playing on a consistent platform. That is not an argument for disabling cross play any more.

And cheaters... well they should be reported and removed. A solution that again benefits everyone playing.

Disparity in control scheme? Match make based on control scheme... Another solution that benefits all players.

So now we understand each others motivations, we can carry on debating this. You want what's better for you, I want what's better for me. The only difference is I bought an xbox to play with xbox users, where your argument seems to be that you bought a PC to play with other xbox users.

You don't understand my motivations. Your made an assumption I only used PC and was looking at this from PC only perspective. I use both and have friends that use either... and have met a lot of people online that use either... some may even use both... many might use a controller... and some might want to...

the option to play together + have a choice over the control scheme would be beneficial. But I also don't believe that this problem is as big as most make it out to be... because winning a ship fight comes down to more than being able to aim well... in fact ALOT more comes down to being able to aim well... to make this marginal.

Because you CAN play battlefront with a controller. You just end up at a disadvantage. But don't worry, it's minor :)

One option that actually makes for a complete terrible experience on a twitch shooter... its not minor for that sort of game. Especially the amount of verticality from jetpacks..

@dishingyou209 said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

The topic is crossplay.. not silly mouse kb. Crossplay being OPTIONAL as it should be would be a great step...

yup, but the discussion is wrong if you want to solve the issues and incorporate a solution that works for everyone... it also tends to ignore the degree the problem actually creates.

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@riareth said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

But it doesn't solve the problem of keyboard and mouse.

First what happens when they add keyboard/mouse support to xbox. It's basically confirmed...

Second. What about PC players that use a controller?

Cross play has nothing to do with the problem being posited.

According to this article when Microsoft fully adds K/M then each game will have to add support for it. And the article also says:

Microsoft encourages developers to monitor how mouse and keyboard players compete against gamepad players and make adjustments where necessary, while "highly suggesting" that use of mouse and keyboard should be used in separate matchmaking rules.

If Rare does add optional cross play for Xbox/PC it should also add to the matchmaking rules gamepad vs K/M when it's supported on the Xbox. And if it's possible to fully disable the mouse on PC for the game, then bring the PC players with gamepad into the gamepad pool.

^This.

MS is on the right track, because they're 'forced' (sorry, couldn't resist) to consider their entire user base. Rare, admittedly, does not. They've created a niche product. So while Rare may never remove forced crossplay, and may choose to disregard MS 'highly suggested' guidance of allowing separation between controller and m k/b users, it's definitely against what most people would consider better judgment.

Of course rare can do this... thats why there are forums for making suggestions... your point doesn't need to be said.

People need to stop worrying about the developers effort or technical limitations... thats not our problem here in the forums... describe a problem and a solution. The tehcnical details aren't our problem nor is figuring out whether or not rare will do something.

Not to mention their guidance may be more for stricter FPS games. Lets be real here, the difference with kb/m in SoT isn't nearly as bad as something like CoD or BF1.

Again, Rare can do as they wish, it's their game and kudos to any developer for sticking with their vision. Overall though, it seems like a poor choice for any game hoping for wider acclaim or acceptance.

That is rubbish. Many games that were once considered "niche" find large audiences... see dark souls.

And I don't see how this relates to control schemes. Their vision is largely isolated by how we play the game.

Yes, many games that begin as a 'niche' game eventually find a larger audience. But seriously...you don't see how the issue of control schemes and how the apparent dissatisfaction expressed in these forums might just translate into how widely accepted or loved a game is? Well that's rubbish, as you say. Maybe, you know, try harder?

As to whether my points need to be said, I'll take that under advisement. Lol.

I didn't say the control scheme didn't impact players.. I said its marginal and if anything is done matching should be based on control scheme not platform.

I'm all for that. Control scheme is the primary issue. But it's one of many others that are impacted by cross play. Any time a game ends up having to balance minor issues like graphical fidelity and draw distances its just another reason why I don't condone forced cross play.

Which is something that PC players have lived with for ever. There are massive disparities for PC players between capable hardware / kb+m quality / disk speed.

I don't see any solution for that at all... and I don't think any of that is as big a difference as the control scheme... not to mention its not like xbox players don't suffer from this.. xbox one vs xbox one s vs xbox one x... + external drive speed (I've got a 1tb ssd I install games on my xonex..)

But you are correct, SoT is somewhat unique in that its not as severely impacted as other PvP games. But the impact is there and has been since day one. Whatever solution Rare is working on, whether it's matchmaking based on controller type, is coming FAR too late. A simple fix to make cross play optional months ago would probably have been better than EVENTUALLY addressing the issue in some other manner. And they very well may be waiting until m k/b support is rolled out for console. While that makes a certain kind of sense in terms of efficiency and long-term thinking, I can't help but think they've done more harm than good by delaying a decision here. Nevermind that the differences are 'minor' to some. In a game that touts equality of experience, minor issues like this can be a real thorn in many peoples sides. These constant threads should be evidence of that.

I honestly don't think the control scheme is as big of a problem as most PVE players are bad at PVP... The vast majority of players I've faced off wouldn't have survived even I was using a controller. The vast majority lack coordination with their team, skills with sailing, tactics engaging another crew.

Even when we are dying just as much as them... if not more... they still sink. Not to recently my entire team was dead while the 1 guy we killed was on the ferry screaming about his sinking ship.. we re spawned before they could figure out a way to sink our ship faster and saved it.

There is FAR more that goes into winning than winning a lot of 1:1 fights. Its a marginal difference at most. If they reduced the effectiveness of bunny hopping it would make this difference significantly less impactful (alternatively if xbox players realize they too can remap and bunny hop like pros...)

Yes, the disparities in hardware are now creeping into the console realm. Make no mistake, this does have some people rather unhappy. The last thing I want when playing a competitive FPS is to know the other player has smoother frame rates than me, or a better draw distance. Granted, I think MS will do everything in its power to create as much parity here as possible, within reason.

They already gave that up pushing cross play and for developers to bump the graphics up on xonex.

And yes, it's always been different on PC. But, strong argument or not, PC players know and accept this going in. Console users have, at least in some part, been drawn to the uniformity that console offers. That, in essence, is part of what we already paid for. The new hardware versions may be chipping away at that, but I see no reason to escalate the pace by embracing forced cross play.

And that is a thing of the past now...

And whether the differences are minimal or not, I point to your own comment about battlefront. You would LOVE not to have to play against m k/b users. And I don't blame you. But right now that's exactly what's happening in SoT, so do you really blame anyone for asking for an option to disable? Because while matchmaking based on control type does make sense, that is not currently an option. So telling people to stop asking is basically telling them to live with the problem for now, even though its one you admit yourself has detracted from your enjoyment (of other titles). That seems a tad...unfair?

My comment is specific for... battlefront. Its a different game with different mechanics and completely different effects due to mouse/keyboard.

The comment doesn't affect my opinion that SoT, which is a different game with different mechanics and different effects due to mouse/keyboard. And the differences are marginal at best for PC users. A well organized crew can kill PC players that board... which is where the vast majority of benefits come from... someone bunny hopping around on a ship... And its not even exclusive to PC users... just remap jump to RB... because I play the same way on PC and Console... and you probably wouldn't noticed the difference if I'm bunny hopping around playing defensively...

Secondly... the solution for battlefront would be the same as the solution for SoT... match make based on control scheme...

@lobane said in All this complaining about Xbox vs PC players...:

@savagetwinky I'm going to make another dig here, by clarifying.

The solution IS perfect for all xbox users. I understand that it's not as ideal for a PC user who wants to play WITH xbox users.

No its not.. as an xbox user... I would like to play with my PC friends that use controllers. A better solution is to allow us to match make with.. controller only players. PC players would be more likely to use controllers if they had a pool of controller only players to play with... And I could point out.. while I'm on my xbox.. that we won't be at a disadvantage using controllers.

Also an option I would like to see... is kb/m supported by xbox version of SoT... so my xbox friends can join us when we are all playing with kb/m... and if we feel we have an advantage using kb/m play with kb/m only players.

Again the assumption being the separation is necessary.

There really is no argument to force someone from one platform to play with another. Options, yes. Forcing, no. If your argument is 'I need players from that other platform to improve my enjoyment of the game' ....well, maybe you bought the wrong platform? Could it really be that simple?

The argument is there is no real benefit in separating players any more... and there is a massive benefit to having more players playing with each other. Separating them when its absolutely necessary only on the aspect that needs to be separate.

That is an argument.. its a valid argument.. As I've pointed out your arguments for separation are basically outdated I don't think you have any real foundation for disabling crossplay other than its a known but an indirect solution for separating control schemes. Only some games need that separation.