[Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion

@wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo @CaptainSkandalf

So you are telling me that the same tracking system that can take up to 72 hours to put commendations or drops on to your account and had my game stats stuck on 80,000 metres sailed and 78 gold hoarders chests, 83 OoS skulls cashed in etc for 6 months while there was a support ticket open, then all of a sudden increase to what I presume is (nearer) the correct figure of nearly 1million metres sailed, 317 skulls blah etc etc over the last 2 or 3 weeks, is suddenly, magically going to start tracking every single SoT players stats in the amount of detail you are talking about, in absolute real time as well?? Nice one Rare.

I also probably won't bother cashing anything in ever again either, just touch it in the vault and wait for some other poor soul to go to the trouble for me. Bless 'em.

This is actually a good point, I did not even think of that. Sometimes I will turn in loot and not get xp or gold for days, sometimes ive had to send in a support ticket. How would Rare really handle such a complex tracking system?

@gtothefo For the folks who just want to have some creative fun with mates and race each other, or hold their own naval battles and the like, that's what private servers will be for.
GTA online made killing others players in free roam pointless, people still do it and its way more frustrating to encounter, you want to kill me for a reward, sure, you want to kill me for no other reason than to kill me, that's just pointless and irritating to deal with.

@captainskandalf

Gold,
Commendations,
Cosmetics,
Legendary Status

All do not contribute to the gameplay.
Being marked on the map of your opponents does.

Put a price on my head or ship... really not that big of a deal, all find and dandy, but you want to on top of that flag me on the map, show me to my opponents and tell them to come hunt me down. Make it literally impossible to fly below the radar... make me a prime target for server hoppers. If I am still with my PVP crew and we were heavily pvping during our session... most likely we would embrace it and enjoy it. We most likely will be wearing a Reapers flag anyway, so bring it on. Yet if I transfer to a sloop after my crew leaves for some solo late night PVE grind, I don't want to be a beacon... I most likely just want to sail the waves, have some diplomacy with the people I meet and acquire my own loot... which would be up for grabs when people sink me (being at risk...).

This is not Real life, it is a Pirate Fantasy Game. We don't need to punish people for engaging in PvP. We aren't criminals, we are not breaking any laws or rules... we are actually working within them. Killing pirates, sinking ships, stealing treasure... is kind of the way of life on the Sea of Thieves. We don't do that in reality, that is why it is a game? Like what is this comparison, you don't murder people in real life... well duh... we don't have a ferry man that just magically puts us back in the world. You don't burn down peoples houses... well duh you don't magically get a new one. You don't steal peoples money... well duh they need that to survive, have a roof above their head, etc. This is such a void argument...

You want to punish active players, players that are good at the game and don't sink often to PVP. It might take me more than 24 ships to hit that rank, if I log in more frequent than once every 24 hours the bounty will not have dropped to zero. It might take 40 ships, 50 ships, one week, two weeks... but once I hit that rank over the course of multiple sessions, I will most likely have to just pvp regardless or pay gold? Why? I have PVE sessions where I take out 6 to 10 ships as a solo, those days where I am sailing around doing my business and people keep trying to ram me, sitting at the island I want to be at etc. I don't actively avoid PVP, but that doesn't mean I want a tracker on my ship. If you want to hunt me down, you better spot me fair and square... I park my ship smart, but if you notice fair play lets go. If some bozo crew hops into the server, runs their ship at me multiple times in a row with no loot on board and sinks... what exactly do I gain from it? They have no bounty, as they are sinking, they have no treasure on board... because I successfully can defend myself I now have to spend my PVE gained gold on paying off my PVP status? You act like sinking ships as someone that is good is hard, I don't want to be forced to run... it is more time efficient, more enjoyable and generally just better to murder and sink anyone that is in my way.

Hypocrisy. It's okay for pve players to have punishment but not pvp players.

Euhm... PVE players are not punished, bad players are. If you are a PVE crew you are not some helpless poor crew. I soloed most of my way to Athena 10 and never lost a single Athena chest (lost other parts of the loot), I have done the world events by myself and grinded many hours. When I feel overwhelmed by the combat or if I just ain't in the mood for it, didn't want to lose my treasure... I retreat and flee. Hypocirsy... is your idea: PVE players are not punished, good PVErs are not handed out a bounty and have the freedom to hunt under the radar. PvP players are to be marked and targeted or pay a fee!

As I stated before, a bounty system is fine... the benefits of becoming an instant level 5 reaper or any of those benefits you mention, when your bounty becomes to high sounds awesome and all that... if it was restricted. I wouldn't even mind if the reward would still be on my head, sink me and gain some gold. The idea of everyone's ship being of value is a good one, yet you want to mark people, make them a target for PvP server hoppers and make it impossible for them to engage in diplomacy, friendly encounters and just force them to PVP... until they sink.

This is the whole mentality issue that PVE players have. They believe that people that engage in PVP should be punished, as they are breaking some imaginary set of laws or rules. That PVE players shouldn't be good at playing their own style and that they are some how punished, while in reality... they have most of the control in the engagements. Sinking 30 player ships without sinking isn't all that hard, most crews are bad and if you are good you can pick the battles you avoid and which you engage in. If I meet a crew that is to good for me, I tend to just sail away... I don't sink.

@cleverk8

You look at Risk/Reward in a vacuum of the single encounter. The person attacking brings nothing, but the person defending is risking it all. Yet a majority of people engage both in PvP and in PVE activities, but rarely at the same time. They enjoy the PvPvE mix and there is a reason why it is mixed.

They sometimes risk their treasure, when they are out doing PVE and are also subject to being attacked.
They sell their treasure before they engage in PVP as the initiator (aggressor).

Also your notion that people state that nobody would play on regular servers is false, the argument is that they won't do the PVE on the regular servers and would only PVP on them. If they have the choice to not risk their own treasure, why wouldn't they use that option? Why wouldn't they choose at the menu screen to be safe. People already do it in the game by selling their treasure before initiating the combat, though till they reached the outpost and sold it... they are at risk. This is how it balances out? Move it from the seas into the menu screen and we don't have a PVEVP world, we have a PVE and PVP one... make your choice what do you want to do today. Thievery will be something of the past, because nobody will be carrying around loot in the PVP world.

You realize that those people that attack you without loot, might also have sessions where they PVE and are carrying around loot. Many people play both sides of the game, not just one.

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@lem0n-curry said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

Stolen loot or just all loot ? Thus the player who just got into possession of some loot, only touches it - when someone else finds it (and think it'll be his) and wants to turn it in, it will go into the first pirate's pocket and if no one will it will just go into the first pirate's pocket when the server goes down ?
Why even bother to put treasure on your ship and turn it in ?

Well, you sort of answered your own question there. Only stolen loot.

People enjoy sinking other crews and then just let the loot sink while they hop on another server and grief in other ways by the thousands if I have to believe some posters here - this way they can double the grief ... might not become an edge case ...

All it would mean is that if a Pirate turns up on your boat to drop off mysterious free treasure you should consider it only possible treasure until you physically turn it in. I mean, that would be a really weird round about way of griefing wouldn't it? I rob and kill you, pick up all your loot, hunt down a second person, catch up to them, board them, load the loot over to their ship, just for the minor disappointment they'll feel when they turn in the first bit of treasure of the haul and realise that I'm actually not a charitable giver? They could dump the remaining treasure over the edge of the ship if they didn't want to bother turning it in and it would revert to the original owner on this system. Would that even really annoy people that much? I mean, honestly? That's the level you're having to stretch to in order to find "griefing" in this system, the fact that someone could put hours of work into mildly disappointing people?

It was an example; the stealing pirate could open up his crew and leave instead of hunting down a third one.
It will become a quite different dynamic on these servers.
You may encounter less the PvEvP players but more extremes - players that want to be left alone and people that go out of their way to grief.

A ship only needs one hole to fill up and sink - same as the system you proposed.

@scarecrow1771 Its weird, when I say that people who run up and kill sink me while I'm just sitting around fishing are just pointlessly griefing I'm told that's untrue, and that they're either doing it to steal from me or to protect against my stealing their treasure and that actual griefing activity is either not present or vanishingly small. Based on that I suggest a version where there is no treasure to steal or protect and I'm told that I'd never escape all those terrible griefers who are definitely out there all the time and a very real presence in the game. If removing treasure would remove being attacked by reasonable people, I think that actually most players would accept that as a passable 'chill out' version of the game.
Personally, if not for the PvE need of weapons, I'd take an option to drop my cannons, cutlass and gun off the ship and advertise the fact to other players if it would save people who aren't griefers sinking me for no reason. Honestly, if you come across my ship and no-one is on it, feel free to rob it hollow, just don't make me walk back home afterwards and leave me to get on with whatever I'm getting on with and I'm fine with it. To be honest, sometimes I'd even accept risking dying to PvE events at the end of a session. Its weird, I've only ever been attacked once while playing emissary, but I've been absolutely hammered four times while sitting at the Hunter's Call, and once with legitimate nastiness.
Probably private servers will do a lot of that. I still think though that something more useful and interesting in the way of an introductory mode would be a good idea, and I also still think that a trick is being missed by not opening up the range of available activity that the game has built in. I think that a relatively quick and definite way of taking advantage of that would be a set of a sub-modes that help to remind people and even teach them about them, but for one flag and a single achievement most players would probably miss the idea that racing each other might be fun entirely. My guess is that if there were a little sub-menu of games that even suggested racing would be a cool thing to do we would see a greater number of people then popping up in the main game actually flying the checkered flag and looking to build that emergent behaviour. For me there are still a range of available behaviours where the reward is so minor and the risks so high that they're being left behind, which I think is a real pity. By putting them into little sub-games you could remove the risk without ripping the whole game to pieces, whereas adding a reward element would alter the game balance. Racing looks like fun, but the reward of it VS the risk that comes from rolling up to total strangers flying the little check flag with hope in your heart just doesn't pay it off. I think it would be quite a pity if that behaviour only ever went on in private servers and was looked at as a sort of dilettante way of engaging with the game.
Sea Of Thieves has a huge range of interesting emergent possibilities within it that just aren't getting a chance to show what they can really do because player interaction is so limited and singular in its nature. People have said, "why did you buy a PvP game if you didn't want PvP?" and honestly, the PvP isn't really my issue, my issue is that I bought a game with emergent stories coming from player interactions and there aren't a range of emergent stories coming from player interactions. Sure, there are fights, and they're one sort of story, but that's hardly a range of interesting and emergent encounters and tales is it? Pirates betraying each other is an inherently fun and cinematic idea, but to have that happen there has to be an initial point of trust, or a reason to trust each other, I think there are interesting ways to create that atmosphere other than a PvE mode. As people have said, this is meant to at least also be a thread about playstyles, and I think that there's a degree to where PvEvP playstyles could be given more interesting moments based around the actual emergent interactions that the devs have talked about but that I don't see as much in the PvP areas as in the PvE ones. One of the issues with the game is that there's not enough P+PvE emergent moments and that actually makes a lot of the PvP a little two dimensional. Betraying someone that had a reason to invest some trust in you is, more interesting and fun than just blasting anyone who comes near you with cannons and seeing every other living thing on the ocean as either threat or prey and its a pity that things like emergent betrayal are so weakly represented. The most betrayally thing you can do at the moment seems to be flying the alliance flag as a fake out, and that's just led people to disregard the flag and its sort of undermined the more interesting stories that could have emerged. Its one of the reasons that I think things like the original Megalodon mission was so interesting.
Just as an off the top of my head example which I'm sure is full of holes, but if there was a sort of split mission vault where you could pick up one half of a key as a crew but not the other and you'd need to wait for someone else to pick up the other half before you could open the vault, but then as you emptied it, instead of it being on a timed close, there was a lever outside to close the door and lock in the other player. Just something to encourage players to trust each other before betraying each other I think would get those emergent moments actually arising that I honestly believe were part of the intent, but they've just not been coming out as organically as was wished. In the end the best solution is not to remove PvP interaction, its to raise its quality.

@lem0n-curry said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

It was an example; the stealing pirate could open up his crew and leave instead of hunting down a third one.

As I said, if a chest left the server after being stolen it would automatically go to its "owner". In fact, you could save a lot of time by making it so that other crews can't interact with chests on your ship. Make it like that, that solves it doesn't it? Just make it so that no other pirate can interact with anything on your ship. Then they just can't steal it at all and that solves all the tracking problems instantly and elegantly.

It will become a quite different dynamic on these servers.

Yep.

You may encounter less the PvEvP players but more extremes - players that want to be left alone and people that go out of their way to grief.

Firstly, most people here claim that the vast majority of what PvE leaning players refer to as griefing is, in fact, legitimate PvP leaning behaviour. If this is the fact the case then griefing in the game is actually a vanishingly small behaviour. If we then see the same level apparent griefing style behaviour we'll then at least know that it wasn't legitimate play in the main mode and if it is vanishingly small that could then presumably be lived with.
Secondly, even the weird edge case reverse Robin Hood griefing you did manage to come up with would be 100% solved by my second stab at the problem, so that seems like its not a totally insoluble issue.

A ship only needs one hole to fill up and sink - same as the system you proposed.

Is this an analogy? If so, I don't think its accurate. A ship doesn't sink unless there's water to fill it. If there's a hole in the system that only allows pure hardcore griefers and if as people say they are actually a tiny percentage of people things should be fine. But as I say, I've just fixed that hole anyway.

@wagstr said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo @CaptainSkandalf

So you are telling me that the same tracking system that can take up to 72 hours to put commendations or drops on to your account and had my game stats stuck on 80,000 metres sailed and 78 gold hoarders chests, 83 OoS skulls cashed in etc for 6 months while there was a support ticket open, then all of a sudden increase to what I presume is (nearer) the correct figure of nearly 1million metres sailed, 317 skulls blah etc etc over the last 2 or 3 weeks, is suddenly, magically going to start tracking every single SoT players stats in the amount of detail you are talking about, in absolute real time as well?? Nice one Rare.

I also probably won't bother cashing anything in ever again either, just touch it in the vault and wait for some other poor soul to go to the trouble for me. Bless 'em.

Yeah, you're right, that was a bad idea. Make it so that once you've dropped something on your ship only you can interact with it. No tracking, no fuss. A ship sinking frees it up again, so if you die to PvE it frees. For that matter, make it so that all things from all quests are like Tall Tale rewards and can only be seen by the players on the quest. You can't steal any of my Tall Tale items, why not just make it like that for all treasure?

Yes, the open world events would allow for some very complex tucking based thefts to occur. The choice there is, take out those few events, or accept a vanishingly small amount of barely borderline theft. Or make it so that only the first crew to land on the island of the event can interact with it and it vanishes to all other crews.

Those solutions are simple, elegant and don't necessitate any of the tracking of the first solution, use existing game mechanics and seem to make stealing instantly impossible. Is there a problem with them?

@cleverk8 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

They sometimes risk their treasure, when they are out doing PVE and are also subject to being attacked.
They sell their treasure before they engage in PVP as the initiator (aggressor).

Yes, a lot of people do play that way. The frustration is that when someone has no interest in PvP they never see a return on that. It will always be imbalanced unless they are the aggressor, which a lot of people have no interest in.
I don't agree with others here trying to set bounties and restrict when/how you can attack other ships - people should absolutely be allowed to play this way, but people are also allowed to be frustrated by it.

Just because something can be frustrating, yet it is their choice to not engage in the other side of the coin. I also do not believe a system should place restrictions when and how they can attack or play peacefully below the radar.

People already sink empty ships, both the defenders and attackers. So, maybe a system that adds intrinsic value to taking out another crew might not be the worst idea and help elevate some of the frustrations. The victor will always get rewarded, the downside of this is naturally... the attackers also will know they always get something out of it and therefore might also promote sinking others more.

Also your notion that people state that nobody would play on regular servers is false, the argument is that they won't do the PVE on the regular servers and would only PVP on them. If they have the choice to not risk their own treasure, why wouldn't they use that option?

Sorry, I don't think I was clear enough. I understand that is the argument, I was specifically speaking of all the people who say that they enjoy the risk and thrill of pvpve and it makes the game for them. That the game wouldn't be fun for them anymore if you took out this risk. Why would they remove themselves of the game mode they enjoy? How would the "normal" servers be empty if so many people enjoy playing this way?

It is the balance that gets disturbed. Many people do not engage in combat with treasure, so why would they risk it if a button at the menu screen removes it? Yet those same people do like hunting pirates and will join the PVP enabled world when that is their choice.

Why would people not want to do PVE in a world where even more people are out hunting others? While those same people that are hunting them down will never be at risk when they do the PVE? Do you truly believe that people won't shift the choice from when they are on the seas, to the menu screen: PVE or PVP today?

Once again the servers will not be empty, they will be filled with people trying to get their PVP fix, while if they want to do their PVE they do that in the safety of the PVE server. There is no incentive to not switch at will, there is no reason to do PVE in a PVP world if you can do it in peace. PvEvP games usually have hardcore vertical progression, to be able to PVP one is forced to do PVE to just be able to compete. This is a horizontal game, there is literally nothing binding you to the PVP world or PVE world and as a result you would be able to pick and choose at will.

@bloodybil said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

I am sure the programmers and game designers would be thrilled to have to revisit the whole system they created in the past, as well as to think every future features, updates and mechanics in function of how it would have to work in PVP and PVE and make sure everything is balanced in every possible scenario.

It's worth noting that they've been adding more and more features that track stuff like this and not just tracking turn ins, even without the intent to implement this sort of system.

This kind of data would help with setting up a PvE system, but it's mostly used to help track how many players are doing what activities so they can adjust incentives and so they can reward activities they want players to engage in. Lets be honest here, they need to provide the bare minimum of incentive to PvP - enough people want to do that regardless, and it will always occur. And incentivizing people to do PvE via other systems beyond loot turn ins also helps PVP because it makes people more likely to do the events that end up with them having substantial loot hauls.

Here is my 2 cents on PVE....

I'd be happy for a progression less single player mode, with the option to invite friends.

The catch is there is no progression at all.

If you want to enjoy the game, all content is there and even better, during server maintaince or perhaps you have your console in a hotel with no Wi-Fi, you can still play SOT.

You can save and collect gold but it can only be used to purchase cosmetics you have unlocked via online play.

Want More?

Add in a debug mode.
You can spawn stuff for fun like skelly Galleons etc.

Even tweak how they aggro or whether they are friendly.

Turn it into a giant practice mode.
Experiment by putting ai skelly Galleons against each other, Krackens against a fleet etc etc.

But to unlock commendations, titles and so on, you must risk the pirate infested waters of PVEVP.

This is the fairest and honestly most fun experience the game can offer.

@cleverk8 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

They sometimes risk their treasure, when they are out doing PVE and are also subject to being attacked.
They sell their treasure before they engage in PVP as the initiator (aggressor).

Yes, a lot of people do play that way. The frustration is that when someone has no interest in PvP they never see a return on that. It will always be imbalanced unless they are the aggressor, which a lot of people have no interest in.

And there lies a big part of the problem. I hate to be one of those people to point this out but I think this is a real issue. Why in the world is someone with no interest in PvP playing a PvPvE game? I really do wonder this. Why someone with zero interest in PvP will buy a game with PvP in it when so many games out there suit their preference better. I will be honest in this game I find the hand to hand combat to be one of the most lackluster and poor systems I have ever played as far as PvP systems go so I do have not much desire to PvP but it doesnt bother me that PvP is in the game , I just wish aspects of it was better.

Im defientley not saying everyone needs to be a super tryhard to play its totally cool leaning more towards PvE(I do) however I actually tried to give advice here to people who are struggling and they will snap back "I have no interest in PVP!" " I dont want to learn how to fight!" " I shouldnt have to learn how to avoid it!", and its like ok cool whatever but dont complain you get sunk then after all you did buy a game with PvP in it. I think anyone who plays any PvPvE game needs to atleast try to learn basic defense and that doesnt even have to involve all fighting persay can involve sailing maneuvers and awareness tips to avoid conflict.

Also your notion that people state that nobody would play on regular servers is false, the argument is that they won't do the PVE on the regular servers and would only PVP on them. If they have the choice to not risk their own treasure, why wouldn't they use that option?

Sorry, I don't think I was clear enough. I understand that is the argument, I was specifically speaking of all the people who say that they enjoy the risk and thrill of pvpve and it makes the game for them. That the game wouldn't be fun for them anymore if you took out this risk. Why would they remove themselves of the game mode they enjoy? How would the "normal" servers be empty if so many people enjoy playing this way?

People like me who enjoy the risk of PvPvE would play on the normal servers however plenty will choose to PvE in safety and then come onto the PvPvE server to solely PvP and there goes the balance of the game. Chances are the main adventure mode would become more aggressive and PvP oriented. PvPvE games are actually not easy to balance and I have played many where balance was lost and sure enough the servers become a PvP fest.

@combatxkitty said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

And there lies a big part of the problem. I hate to be one of those people to point this out but I think this is a real issue. Why in the world is someone with no interest in PvP playing a PvPvE game? I really do wonder this. Why someone with zero interest in PvP will buy a game with PvP in it when so many games out there suit their preference better. I will be honest in this game I find the hand to hand combat to be one of the most lackluster and poor systems I have ever played as far as PvP systems go so I do have not much desire to PvP but it doesnt bother me that PvP is in the game , I just wish aspects of it was better.

I don't like to speak for others, but personally the response is that honestly I was expecting better and more interesting PvP. The game claims that there are a range of emergent and varied PvEvP interactions, but there really aren't. If there were a range of PvP interactions, one of which was someone hopping around your ship firebombing and double gunning I think people would feel less short changed. If I was as likely to race someone, or work with them to dig up a treasure only to betray them at the last minute, or share a grog with them or something else, I'd be fine with the fact that some of the time it was just flat out aggression. But I don't think its 100% true that any old PvP was offered, I think that a range of interesting and emergent varied PvP and P+P interactions were offered, and they're just not there. Its not that I mind the combat, but I do mind it only ever being combat.

Im defientley not saying everyone needs to be a super tryhard to play its totally cool leaning more towards PvE(I do) however I actually tried to give advice here to people who are struggling and they will snap back "I have no interest in PVP!" " I dont want to learn how to fight!", and its like ok cool whatever but dont complain you get sunk then after all you did buy a game with PvP in it.

Sure, but again (and this tends to be the start of the same cycle) I don't think that when someone says that they don't enjoy something telling them to spend a long time getting good at it so they don't have to do it as much, or thinking that they don't enjoy it because they don't win at it is getting the point. Sea Of Thieves, at least on its Steam page, says "but will they be friends or foes, and how will you respond?", its not insane for some people to say, I was expecting that friends/foe split to be even close to 50/50 of encounters, and even more so, at least 50/50 of interest. Whereas the level of interesting, active and emergent friendly encounters is well below the foe part. So when people say that they're not interested in the PvP foe bit, now, where's the equivalent P+P friend bit, I don't think they're being that unreasonable.

People like me who enjoy the risk of PvPvE would play on the normal servers however plenty will choose to PvE in safety and then come onto the PvPvE server to solely PvP and there goes the balance of the game. Chances are the main adventure mode would become more aggressive and PvP oriented. PvPvE games are actually not easy to balance and I have played many where balance was lost and sure enough the servers become a PvP fest.

One thing I find funny is the number of people who say, "Well, I would play on the PvEvP servers, but I imagine that other people wouldn't". I sort of assume that most people are basically like me, so if I'd mostly play on the PvEvP servers, I assume most other people would too. The ironic thing is that the most likely reason for a PvE server making the PvEvP server PvP only is all the PvEvP players deserting it because of some idea that no one else thinks quite like they do about the situation.

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@combatxkitty said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

And there lies a big part of the problem. I hate to be one of those people to point this out but I think this is a real issue. Why in the world is someone with no interest in PvP playing a PvPvE game? I really do wonder this. Why someone with zero interest in PvP will buy a game with PvP in it when so many games out there suit their preference better. I will be honest in this game I find the hand to hand combat to be one of the most lackluster and poor systems I have ever played as far as PvP systems go so I do have not much desire to PvP but it doesnt bother me that PvP is in the game , I just wish aspects of it was better.

I don't like to speak for others, but personally the response is that honestly I was expecting better and more interesting PvP. The game claims that there are a range of emergent and varied PvEvP interactions, but there really aren't. If there were a range of PvP interactions, one of which was someone hopping around your ship firebombing and double gunning I think people would feel less short changed. If I was as likely to race someone, or work with them to dig up a treasure only to betray them at the last minute, or share a grog with them or something else, I'd be fine with the fact that some of the time it was just flat out aggression. But I don't think its 100% true that any old PvP was offered, I think that a range of interesting and emergent varied PvP and P+P interactions were offered, and they're just not there. Its not that I mind the combat, but I do mind it only ever being combat.

Im defientley not saying everyone needs to be a super tryhard to play its totally cool leaning more towards PvE(I do) however I actually tried to give advice here to people who are struggling and they will snap back "I have no interest in PVP!" " I dont want to learn how to fight!", and its like ok cool whatever but dont complain you get sunk then after all you did buy a game with PvP in it.

Sure, but again (and this tends to be the start of the same cycle) I don't think that when someone says that they don't enjoy something telling them to spend a long time getting good at it so they don't have to do it as much, or thinking that they don't enjoy it because they don't win at it is getting the point. Sea Of Thieves, at least on its Steam page, says "but will they be friends or foes, and how will you respond?", its not insane for some people to say, I was expecting that friends/foe split to be even close to 50/50 of encounters, and even more so, at least 50/50 of interest. Whereas the level of interesting, active and emergent friendly encounters is well below the foe part. So when people say that they're not interested in the PvP foe bit, now, where's the equivalent P+P friend bit, I don't think they're being that unreasonable.

You can meet nice people though and you can make friends. I have met plenty of nice people actually I met my bestfriend on this game so the Steam page is not false advertising at all. Is it a 50/50 split I would say for me it is.

I dont say "get good" never cared for that but I do not think its unreasonable to make suggestions at getting better at either fighting or avoiding conflict. I think its unreasonable to buy a PvPvE game and refuse to even attempt to learn. Also lets be honest this is one of the least complex fighting systems ever, it really isnt that steep of a curve, its not like you have to memorize the capabilities of 50 guns, different ammo, different potions to use ect. Its all rather straight forward. You do not need to spend months mastering Sea of Thieves.

Im sorry if they do not enjoy PvP but even if it was a 50/50 split friend or foe for them too that would still mean they will be in a PvP situation at points and if they do not enjoy the mere thought of PvP really why buy a game with PvP? I understand if like you or me we find after we bought it the PvP to not be so hot but I mean Im not talking about people in that category.

People like me who enjoy the risk of PvPvE would play on the normal servers however plenty will choose to PvE in safety and then come onto the PvPvE server to solely PvP and there goes the balance of the game. Chances are the main adventure mode would become more aggressive and PvP oriented. PvPvE games are actually not easy to balance and I have played many where balance was lost and sure enough the servers become a PvP fest.

One thing I find funny is the number of people who say, "Well, I would play on the PvEvP servers, but I imagine that other people wouldn't". I sort of assume that most people are basically like me, so if I'd mostly play on the PvEvP servers, I assume most other people would too. The ironic thing is that the most likely reason for a PvE server making the PvEvP server PvP only is all the PvEvP players deserting it because of some idea that no one else thinks quite like they do about the situation.

Oh I dont think others would not but lets be real here if many are given the choice of grinding away with zero risk they will certainly go with that option and yes there very well can be enough to throw the balance off. We wont know for sure until its too late which is why I would only favor a PvE mode that compliments not competes.

@gtothefo

You indicated you think it is a bad idea and yet here pages later you are still arguing in favor of it, with no foundations for your arguments. Just wishful thinking, assumptions and your beliefs. Why do you want the developers to implement something bad... I really don't understand it and believe you are not being genuine at all.

Its not that I mind the combat, but I do mind it only ever being combat.

Yet you argue for a server that will increase the PVP in the world by offering a safe place for the people doing PVE. Even if you believe a smaller percentage does what we claim they will do in masses and that the percentage of players that only PVE will leave the world... it will by definition increase the combat.

Increasing the combat, will push more people into doing their PVE in the safe zone and only head to the shared world to PVP. Creating a cycle that promotes the behavior we argue will be the case.

The division might not be 50/50, but adding PvE servers will not push it more to that... it will actually push the balance towards more PVP not less. Logically speaking that means you are creating the opposite effect than what you are claiming you want in the game and towards the split and menu choice we argue will be the effect.

One thing I find funny is the number of people who say, "Well, I would play on the PvEvP servers, but I imagine that other people wouldn't". I sort of assume that most people are basically like me, so if I'd mostly play on the PvEvP servers, I assume most other people would too. The ironic thing is that the most likely reason for a PvE server making the PvEvP server PvP only is all the PvEvP players deserting it because of some idea that no one else thinks quite like they do about the situation.

The argument of that players will pick and choose at the menu screen has more merit, by the simple fact that the majority of people will sell their loot first before heading into combat themselves, the majority of people take the easiest and quickest route if offered to them. Those that attack with their loot on board is the minority. If the choice is made like that in the PVP world, why even risk it if you can guarantee it at the menu screen?

These people are not deserting the servers, they are using them to PvP and maybe some minor PvE, but all the heavy lifting and PvE activities will be done in safety.

I've thought about this a lot, and I think one of the arguments against PvE servers that is never brought up is that PvE in Sea of Thieves is 1) boring, and 2) zero-risk, with the "risky" PvE events being entirely avoidable.

Let's think about this.

• What do you lose when you die to a skeleton on an island? Nothing.
• What are the odds that you'll be hit by the Kraken? About 1 in 6, and the Kraken only appears between world events and attacks one ship that is actively sailing, making it almost entirely avoidable. How easy is it to beat the Kraken? Pretty darn easy (yes, the first one or two times can be tough and scary, but after that it's just a frustration to be hit by the Kraken).
• How easy is it to avoid a Megalodon? It's so easy that you pretty much have to WANT to fight it for it to actually be a threat. It rarely spawns in a fully aggressive mood.
• Let's talk about Skeleton Ships. There are two types: patrolling and random encounter. The patrolling ships are so blind that you'd practically have to run into them to aggro them, and you have to actually initiate combat with them. So they're a non-issue unless you're looking for a fight. The ones that rise up from the water will only ever match your ship type (sloops for sloops, and galleons for brigs and galleons). They're manageable and easy to dispatch unless you're already dealing with something (such as the Skelly Galleon that interrupted my ghost fleet battle, putting me in a real tough spot).

The only true threat posed by PvE in this game is that it will allow another player to catch up with you, or that it will inconvenience you while you're dealing with another player, tilting the scales in their favor. And just as often as it happens to you, it happens to them.

Now, I'm all for Rare redesigning PvE encounters to be more engaging than "run around and whack skeletons with your bland one-note attacks until they die" (although this isn't the thread to discuss a PvE rework). Honestly, PvE combat is, in my opinion, the weakest part of SoT, and I'm saying this as someone who avoids PvP encounters. It just becomes tiresome to deal with the 27th skeleton wave on an island when you're working on clue scrolls or even mutli-X maps, and even WORSE when you're flying Athena's flag, because then those skeletons are just damage sponges with no additional added threat. It doesn't make the experience rewarding at all, and often leads to frustration when the treasure turns out to be a mermaid gem and 200 gold.

Let's say we make the separate servers. There'd be no more looking over your shoulder to make sure a ship isn't sailing up to attack you. You'd never have to alter your sailing routes. It would be reduced to "sail to point A, dig here, whack some skeletons, and then enjoy a peaceful trip back to the outpost." No one on the crew would need to be on lookout duty, so everyone would just be standing around a lot while the boat travels. The gameplay loop would get stale and repetitive, and the PvE-only players would get bored and stop playing. PvPvE players would wind up frustrated that everyone on the "normal" server is out for PvP, so the risk/reward for PvE on "normal" servers is much too high to be worth it, as there is now 0% chance that a ship you see in the distance is just minding their own business and not interested in a fight. They'd eventually drop off because they'd have no reason to play. The PvP players would get tired of not getting loot from their encounters, and they'd also eventually stop playing. The game would die.

@combatxkitty said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

You can meet nice people though and you can make friends. I have met plenty of nice people actually I met my bestfriend on this game so the Steam page is not false advertising at all. Is it a 50/50 split I would say for me it is.

That you can meet friendly people is less the issue than that you can have emergent in game behaviour with them. Sure, you can make friends and join the same crew later and have adventures together, but I don't really call that emergent in game behaviour. Emergent in game friendly behaviour largely seems to be confined to jigging about while playing instruments and occasionally dropping loot onto someone else's ship because you're at the tail end of a session and don't have time to drop them into an Outpost. Compare that to the massive and epic unfriendly emergent behaviours that people experience and its not really a level see-saw.

I dont say "get good" never cared for that but I do not think its unreasonable to make suggestions at getting better at either fighting or avoiding conflict. I think its unreasonable to buy a PvPvE game and refuse to even attempt to learn. Also lets be honest this is one of the least complex fighting systems ever, it really isnt that steep of a curve, its not like you have to memorize the capabilities of 50 guns, different ammo, different potions to use ect. Its all rather straight forward. You do not need to spend months mastering Sea of Thieves.

No, that's true, but if you're seeking those more shared and complex emergent behaviours then the question is, what's at the far end of learning to be good at the simpler ones? If someone just happens to not like the fighting, win or lose, and they like the treasure hunting, then getting good at the fighting or avoiding is really neither here nor there for their prospects of enjoying the game.

Personally, I had an early encounter where someone was jumping left and right on an island about three ship lengths away and managed to hit me in mid air while I was stood on my ship behind my captain's table, two shots and two hits. At that point I sort of figured, right, I'll get good at the running away first then because it is going to take me a while to be able to compete with that. I get your point, I'm just saying that when someone's problem is that there doesn't seem to be the complex range of emergent behaviours that they were expecting, getting good at the simple set of ones that there are isn't going to help.

Im sorry if they do not enjoy PvP but even if it was a 50/50 split friend or foe for them too that would still mean they will be in a PvP situation at points and if they do not enjoy the mere thought of PvP really why buy a game with PvP? I understand if like you or me we find after we bought it the PvP to not be so hot but I mean Im not talking about people in that category.

No, I know what you mean, and there are people who seem baffled to come across any PvP which certainly does seem a little weird. Personally I was surprised to see quite how little of a Pirates on the Sea game's PvP actually involved the use of ships and cannons to fight, but I realise that's a matter of personal taste. I like to believe though that most people have a reasonable point of view, they just become rather inarticulate at times.

Oh I dont think others would not but lets be real here if many are given the choice of grinding away with zero risk they will certainly go with that option and yes there very well can be enough to throw the balance off. We wont know for sure until its too late which is why I would only favor a PvE mode that compliments not competes.

Me too. I will say though, I also find it odd that people insist that PvE players will take low risk low challenge grinding whenever its offered when the lowest risk, lowest challenge, highest reward activity in the game seems to have so little engagement. Some fish are the highest value single object thing in the whole game, its literally impossible to have them stolen off you and they're immensely easy to acquire, if people were so inclined to grinding you'd think that every Hunter's Call would be inundated with it.

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo

You indicated you think it is a bad idea and yet here pages later you are still arguing in favor of it, with no foundations for your arguments. Just wishful thinking, assumptions and your beliefs. Why do you want the developers to implement something bad... I really don't understand it and believe you are not being genuine at all.

No, I'm not arguing in favour of it. Where am I doing that?

Yet you argue for a server that will increase the PVP in the world by offering a safe place for the people doing PVE. Even if you believe a smaller percentage does what we claim they will do in masses and that the percentage of players that only PVE will leave the world... it will by definition increase the combat.

Again, I'm not in favour of that server, I'm in favour of solutions that increase the quality of the existing interactions and combats in the game.

The division might not be 50/50, but adding PvE servers will not push it more to that... it will actually push the balance towards more PVP not less. Logically speaking that means you are creating the opposite effect than what you are claiming you want in the game and towards the split and menu choice we argue will be the effect.

Again, I'm not sure that follows, but since you can't seem to separate the idea of my having a discussion about your inaccuracies in relation to the failings of a PvE server and my supporting a PvE server, its in both of our best interests that I not engage with that. Let's just agree not to add a full PvE server and leave it at that.

The argument of that players will pick and choose at the menu screen has more merit, by the simple fact that the majority of people will sell their loot first before heading into combat themselves, the majority of people take the easiest and quickest route if offered to them. Those that attack with their loot on board is the minority. If the choice is made like that in the PVP world, why even risk it if you can guarantee it at the menu screen?

You seem endlessly locked on this idea that the only thing that people are even capable of caring about in the game is loot and advancement. It is more fun to pick up loot from an island and run it back to an Outpost while looking over your shoulder. Fun is the point of the game, not Loot. Risk is excitement, and that's why people would take the option to run their loot back in a game with opponents than one without. Plenty of veteran players have commented on here that the PvE side of the game lacks challenge and people actively loot stack to increase the tension of sailing about with loot onboard. If people always take the easiest way out at all times, why would people ever loot stack? I loot stack sometimes with an emissary flag aboard and I can't stand the majority of PvP, because the risk of it is exciting and fun. You say you don't fish in the game which I really don't understand because fishing seems built for what you declare to be your preferred play style, low risk, low effort, high loot reward.

These people are not deserting the servers, they are using them to PvP and maybe some minor PvE, but all the heavy lifting and PvE activities will be done in safety.

So you continue to insist, and so I continue to refute, and so it continues to not matter at all, because I'm not in favour of a PvE server. You need to understand, I'm not in favour of a PvE server, I just think you're wrong about why its a bad idea. I think your reasoning can be wrong while supporting the idea that you support. From my perspective this is like you're saying "The Earth is round, and we know that due to the number of legs on a duck" and I'm taking the position that its utterly ridiculous to say that the number of limbs on a duck has anything to do with the shape of the world which is causing you to conclude that I must be a flat earther. Once again, PvE servers is a bad idea, and I am not in favour of them. However, just because someone says something I think is inaccurate while simultaneously saying that PvE servers are a bad idea, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to point out their inaccuracy.

@jmcafreak said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

Let's say we make the separate servers. There'd be no more looking over your shoulder to make sure a ship isn't sailing up to attack you. You'd never have to alter your sailing routes. It would be reduced to "sail to point A, dig here, whack some skeletons, and then enjoy a peaceful trip back to the outpost." No one on the crew would need to be on lookout duty, so everyone would just be standing around a lot while the boat travels. The gameplay loop would get stale and repetitive, and the PvE-only players would get bored and stop playing. PvPvE players would wind up frustrated that everyone on the "normal" server is out for PvP, so the risk/reward for PvE on "normal" servers is much too high to be worth it, as there is now 0% chance that a ship you see in the distance is just minding their own business and not interested in a fight. They'd eventually drop off because they'd have no reason to play. The PvP players would get tired of not getting loot from their encounters, and they'd also eventually stop playing. The game would die.

Right. So, given that literally no reasonable person is actually asking for a full adventure PvE only server, let's think about some of the things that people are more reasonably suggesting in this respect. So, one thing that's being talked about is something where the PvE world is one with the more low impact runs that players far more rarely engage with in the full world because their low rewards make them feel not worth it alongside the high risk nature of player attack. One of the other parts of such a world is that since one of the main side things that PvP does is add on unexpected play time, it would allow people with short or very prescribed windows to engage with the game more regularly, keeping it in their regular rotation and so increasing the chances that they will play it for longer. The top three that I mention are racing, fishing and journal hunting, which often seem too low reward to bother with in the full world (particularly racing which should be a zero risk engagement but generally seems to be one of the most deadly emergent behaviours you can attempt to engage in). A world that consisted of only those elements would be highly unlikely to rob the main game of all players, but would allow lower key players to get some fun out of the game and learn some of its mechanics without having to feel the pressure and tension of the whole game and being able to solidly plan to a given window of time.

One of the major other areas for the PvE system to cover would be something to ease the learning curve cliff such that fewer new players are put off the game (and put their friends off it), good suggestions here are an extended maiden voyage that actually tries to teach you something useful about the game and non-direct conflict PvP competitions (score attack etc.). Personally I'm of the opinion that a simple de-brief option to allow new players to more accurately frame their experience in the game would be very helpful in that regard also.

What do you think of some of these ideas?

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo

You indicated you think it is a bad idea and yet here pages later you are still arguing in favor of it, with no foundations for your arguments. Just wishful thinking, assumptions and your beliefs. Why do you want the developers to implement something bad... I really don't understand it and believe you are not being genuine at all.

No, I'm not arguing in favour of it. Where am I doing that?

Yet you argue for a server that will increase the PVP in the world by offering a safe place for the people doing PVE. Even if you believe a smaller percentage does what we claim they will do in masses and that the percentage of players that only PVE will leave the world... it will by definition increase the combat.

Again, I'm not in favour of that server, I'm in favour of solutions that increase the quality of the existing interactions and combats in the game.

The division might not be 50/50, but adding PvE servers will not push it more to that... it will actually push the balance towards more PVP not less. Logically speaking that means you are creating the opposite effect than what you are claiming you want in the game and towards the split and menu choice we argue will be the effect.

Again, I'm not sure that follows, but since you can't seem to separate the idea of my having a discussion about your inaccuracies in relation to the failings of a PvE server and my supporting a PvE server, its in both of our best interests that I not engage with that. Let's just agree not to add a full PvE server and leave it at that.

You ask how you arguments are in support of PVE servers and you state the bolded text above. My inaccuracies? While I actually bring forth logical, foundations for my standpoint... your argument literally starts with and I quote:

I sort of assume that most people are basically like me

I even give you the ability to not see it as far reaching as I claim, yet you don't believe that people won't go and use the PVE servers for their PVE needs and go to the shared world to hunt? That makes literally zero logical sense. The assumption that most people are like yourself is a bad assumption. My assumption is actually that most people aren't like me, that they are their own person and extremely varied.

You claim you want to improve the quality of the interactions upon the waves... yet believe that a PVE server wouldn't be abused, create a cycle of causing more interactions to be about murdering, hunting and stealing?

The argument of that players will pick and choose at the menu screen has more merit, by the simple fact that the majority of people will sell their loot first before heading into combat themselves, the majority of people take the easiest and quickest route if offered to them. Those that attack with their loot on board is the minority. If the choice is made like that in the PVP world, why even risk it if you can guarantee it at the menu screen?

You seem endlessly locked on this idea that the only thing that people are even capable of caring about in the game is loot and advancement. It is more fun to pick up loot from an island and run it back to an Outpost while looking over your shoulder. Fun is the point of the game, not Loot. Risk is excitement, and that's why people would take the option to run their loot back in a game with opponents than one without. Plenty of veteran players have commented on here that the PvE side of the game lacks challenge and people actively loot stack to increase the tension of sailing about with loot onboard. If people always take the easiest way out at all times, why would people ever loot stack? I loot stack sometimes with an emissary flag aboard and I can't stand the majority of PvP, because the risk of it is exciting and fun. You say you don't fish in the game which I really don't understand because fishing seems built for what you declare to be your preferred play style, low risk, low effort, high loot reward.

Fun is the point yes, risk and excitement is fun for some yes. Yet many do not like losing their loot in many situations. Never did I say that everyone would use the PVE mode exclusively. Yet by offering it, the balance on the seas is shifting to a more PVP style gameplay. You complain about the division of friendly/foe interactions being more tilted to the foe end, yet want to remove more of the friendly pirate crews.

Why do people stack loot? Because they find it exciting and great to have a full big haul of loot, it looks pretty after all. Some do it because they are confident in their ability to defend, but there are many that will do it for hours and have it stolen to come to these forums to complain and request a PVE server to do it on. Are these people truly out for fun, excitement and the thrill of looking over their shoulder the PvEvP experience? Will these people never PVP, my bet is they do... but don't want to when they are the ones stacking loot? Will these people not join PVE servers do the loot stacking and only join the shared world for their PVP needs? Will this not create an even larger imbalance between friendly and foe interactions? How does this benefit the quality of these interactions?

The big thing about offering options to people is that people will use them. That is the most logical and reasonable course of action. If you give them the freedom to choose at will at any given moment, why wouldn't they use it?

I am a veteran player that complains consistently about the PVE easy end and if they implement a PVE mode I hope that it would offer a proper PVE challenge to also appeal to me. If the game is going to expand with a mode, I would like to want to use it? You know create something that compliments and expands the game for everyone?

You don't get why I don't like fishing? Because it is boring, I am a pirate. Unlike the majority of PvP pirates that people complain about that come in for the fight without risking anything, my deck tends to be loaded with all the loot I gathered till that point. It is sitting there smack right next to my harpoons or near the ladders. I might be rolling with some new scallywag that barely knows how to park the ship and chill out and do some PvE, while teaching them the ropes, keeping them safe. If my opponent or those that I come across on the seas grabs their speaking horn I am all ears... just don't board my ship, because I will have to kill you. I am not your average run of the mill pirate, I am a legend of old... Usually I follow my crew and let them captain, I will fly around the world seeking for some excitement, variety and interaction. The crews I meet, the variety of friendly and foes, the mystery of it all is what keeps me playing the game.

You know why I have such an outspoken opinion about maintaining a balance on the seas, is because I have no interest in just battling it out all the time. Battle is fun, but the gems are those where crews start talking to each other. Alliances is not my thing, once again to boring... but a truce, a deal or a good sword duel... now that is magical. I do enjoy stealing other peoples loot... I like pouncing when people leave opportunities or creating them myself, pirate you know.

I sometimes can be the hero in someone's session, the new pirates I teach tend to keep asking me to join them on their endevours... while the people I make my opponent will call me griefing, PVP sweaty nerd and worse. I truly am a PvEvP player, that has been sailing for so long that they stopped caring completely about the bits and bobs we collect. There was a time, where an Athena chest would be exciting to dig up or the skeleton fleet rippling up from the depths below upon my solo sloop... now I am left with the variety in player interaction. Shift that balance you talk about and I will lose even more interest in the game. You want better quality interactions with people, create a code that works for you. Live by it, become good at maintaining a powerful position and be willing to fight. Make it clear that fighting you might not be in their best interest and you would be surprised what one can achieve.

These people are not deserting the servers, they are using them to PvP and maybe some minor PvE, but all the heavy lifting and PvE activities will be done in safety.

So you continue to insist, and so I continue to refute, and so it continues to not matter at all, because I'm not in favour of a PvE server. You need to understand, I'm not in favour of a PvE server, I just think you're wrong about why its a bad idea. I think your reasoning can be wrong while supporting the idea that you support. From my perspective this is like you're saying "The Earth is round, and we know that due to the number of legs on a duck" and I'm taking the position that its utterly ridiculous to say that the number of limbs on a duck has anything to do with the shape of the world which is causing you to conclude that I must be a flat earther. Once again, PvE servers is a bad idea, and I am not in favour of them. However, just because someone says something I think is inaccurate while simultaneously saying that PvE servers are a bad idea, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to point out their inaccuracy.

Yet, I am the one showcasing with examples, with logical reasoning why the earth is round. Your argument is "I assume", "People say", "They are like me" "it is fun" which are all opinions without reasoning... the argument it wouldn't be that bad, is in favor of PVE servers. You haven't given literally any explanation upon why people wouldn't do as I state other than their intrinsic motivation which you frankly cannot know. I even am not giving numbers and allowing you to fill that in to a lesser degree than what I believe... and yet you still call my stand point ridiculous.

I don't see how you can state that offering a PVE mode of the adventure mode won't shift the balance of the game to more PVP. You are literally removing PVE crews from the seas and to a degree PvEvP crews doing PVE. Nothing binds you to your choice, you can pick and choose PVE or PVP. If the option is there people would use it... to believe otherwise is unrealistic.

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo

You indicated you think it is a bad idea and yet here pages later you are still arguing in favor of it, with no foundations for your arguments. Just wishful thinking, assumptions and your beliefs. Why do you want the developers to implement something bad... I really don't understand it and believe you are not being genuine at all.

No, I'm not arguing in favour of it. Where am I doing that?

Yet you argue for a server that will increase the PVP in the world by offering a safe place for the people doing PVE. Even if you believe a smaller percentage does what we claim they will do in masses and that the percentage of players that only PVE will leave the world... it will by definition increase the combat.

Again, I'm not in favour of that server, I'm in favour of solutions that increase the quality of the existing interactions and combats in the game.

The division might not be 50/50, but adding PvE servers will not push it more to that... it will actually push the balance towards more PVP not less. Logically speaking that means you are creating the opposite effect than what you are claiming you want in the game and towards the split and menu choice we argue will be the effect.

Again, I'm not sure that follows, but since you can't seem to separate the idea of my having a discussion about your inaccuracies in relation to the failings of a PvE server and my supporting a PvE server, its in both of our best interests that I not engage with that. Let's just agree not to add a full PvE server and leave it at that.

You ask how you arguments are in support of PVE servers and you state the bolded text above.

Really? I honestly don't know if you're serious here or trolling me but whatever the reason, if you can't or won't see the error you've made there I don't think there's any possibility of having a conducive or worthwhile discussion with you. One way or another, I'm just banging my head into a brick wall.

Do you understand that the sentence "If you can't tell the difference between me wearing a hat with a crab on it and my being a crab" is not a sentence admitting to being a crustacean?

@gtothefo

Yet you have not given a single valid argument for your standpoint. You claim you aren't in favor of the PvE version, but you are here discussing with multiple people about how it would be implemented, how it wouldn't be that bad and making unfounded claims that it wouldn't have a big impact on the servers as we know it. How exactly are you not in favor of PVE adventure mode? For crying out loud, do I really have to go back into the last couple of pages to quote every single time you fight people on the notion that Adventure PVE mode is a horrible idea, where you are the one down playing it.

Since you love your analogies; If you are not in favor of eating meat, but argue that the breeding of animals is not very harmful to the environment, that slaughterhouses are easily setup and achievable, that it would promote more jobs and increase the profit that can be made... are you truly against eating meat?

The goals you claim to want to achieve and the standpoints, the people you decide to fight on their standpoints are very conflicting.

If you want quality interactions, if you want ship battles, if you want to be left alone... learn to play the game before you start preaching to me about what you can achieve in the game. Most of your complaints are a non-factor for me, because I can use the tools in the game to be a PVE lord or a PVP lord or a negotiator that you truly don't want to double cross and really want to strike a deal with. This doesn't mean that I don't think the game has areas it needs improving, but darn people are so unwilling to master a game now a days.

Come back when you have more than your I assume and this is what I consider fun. The majority of people are not like you, the majority of people have a complete different definition of fun than you and those statements go for everyone. Bring reasons, motivations, logic... arguments based on something other than assumptions and subjective notions of fun.

You know why it feels like talking to a wall? Because your only counter argument is, but my assumptions... you don't actually bring any counter argument. This last response showcases that. Instead of focusing on the content and the subject, the bulk of the post... you know the actual questions you asked about the game, you focus on one sentence that has nothing to do with it.

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@combatxkitty said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

You can meet nice people though and you can make friends. I have met plenty of nice people actually I met my bestfriend on this game so the Steam page is not false advertising at all. Is it a 50/50 split I would say for me it is.

That you can meet friendly people is less the issue than that you can have emergent in game behaviour with them. Sure, you can make friends and join the same crew later and have adventures together, but I don't really call that emergent in game behaviour. Emergent in game friendly behaviour largely seems to be confined to jigging about while playing instruments and occasionally dropping loot onto someone else's ship because you're at the tail end of a session and don't have time to drop them into an Outpost. Compare that to the massive and epic unfriendly emergent behaviours that people experience and its not really a level see-saw.

So what are you saying? We need more friendly activities to do? What would you suggest? I always thought it would be fun if you could play card games or whatever at the tavern.

I dont say "get good" never cared for that but I do not think its unreasonable to make suggestions at getting better at either fighting or avoiding conflict. I think its unreasonable to buy a PvPvE game and refuse to even attempt to learn. Also lets be honest this is one of the least complex fighting systems ever, it really isnt that steep of a curve, its not like you have to memorize the capabilities of 50 guns, different ammo, different potions to use ect. Its all rather straight forward. You do not need to spend months mastering Sea of Thieves.

No, that's true, but if you're seeking those more shared and complex emergent behaviours then the question is, what's at the far end of learning to be good at the simpler ones? If someone just happens to not like the fighting, win or lose, and they like the treasure hunting, then getting good at the fighting or avoiding is really neither here nor there for their prospects of enjoying the game.

Well if someone really doesnt want to attempt to learn the basics of defending themselves I would say for them atleast learn running tactics. I mean I dont know what else to suggest, this is not a treasure digging simulator , never meant to be one, its a PvPvE game. Devs cant make everyone happy can they?

The only thing that could be created would be a PvE mode with its own faction where maybe you race to dig up a chest? Kinda like the time runs you mentioned. However still I think it would get boring if that is all someone bought the game to do just like I would think someone would get bored of Arena after awhile so when it comes to someone like that I am not sure if a PvE mode that doesnt compete with main adventure would keep them happy.

Personally, I had an early encounter where someone was jumping left and right on an island about three ship lengths away and managed to hit me in mid air while I was stood on my ship behind my captain's table, two shots and two hits. At that point I sort of figured, right, I'll get good at the running away first then because it is going to take me a while to be able to compete with that. I get your point, I'm just saying that when someone's problem is that there doesn't seem to be the complex range of emergent behaviours that they were expecting, getting good at the simple set of ones that there are isn't going to help.

I do not fail to see what someone belief of a lack of emergent behaviors in Sea of Thieves has to do with learning basic tactics to protect their treasure and ship so I am not sure how to respond to this point.

Im sorry if they do not enjoy PvP but even if it was a 50/50 split friend or foe for them too that would still mean they will be in a PvP situation at points and if they do not enjoy the mere thought of PvP really why buy a game with PvP? I understand if like you or me we find after we bought it the PvP to not be so hot but I mean Im not talking about people in that category.

No, I know what you mean, and there are people who seem baffled to come across any PvP which certainly does seem a little weird. Personally I was surprised to see quite how little of a Pirates on the Sea game's PvP actually involved the use of ships and cannons to fight, but I realise that's a matter of personal taste. I like to believe though that most people have a reasonable point of view, they just become rather inarticulate at times.

Honestly I wish people would stay on their ships more and fight but boarding is the quicker way I guess but my best ship battles have always been when both sides did not rely on boarding.

Oh I dont think others would not but lets be real here if many are given the choice of grinding away with zero risk they will certainly go with that option and yes there very well can be enough to throw the balance off. We wont know for sure until its too late which is why I would only favor a PvE mode that compliments not competes.

Me too. I will say though, I also find it odd that people insist that PvE players will take low risk low challenge grinding whenever its offered when the lowest risk, lowest challenge, highest reward activity in the game seems to have so little engagement. Some fish are the highest value single object thing in the whole game, its literally impossible to have them stolen off you and they're immensely easy to acquire, if people were so inclined to grinding you'd think that every Hunter's Call would be inundated with it.

I dont think can compare fishing for the right fish to the variety of other ways to gain treasure and use that as a "see why would PvE players choose to play on a PvE only server when they can just be fishing and only fishing in main adventure?". Just because someone is a PvE'er does not mean they only want to do the same thing every time they log on. So yes they go with the risk now because they have no choice other than I guess to fish? I guess I am trying to say I do not think that is a proper gauge.

The point is why would the person who solely wants to PvE play on a server with PvP when they can play on one with no PvP? Not even just the sole PvE'er maybe even by some crews who lean more to PvP and heck even PvPvE. They will get what they need done in safety then come to the main adventure ready to fight. There is a reason why 9/10 ships that come at you have no treasure, they cash in first so not to risk it. I agree with @CotU42 on that point. Loot stacking who? Been playing since day one and have never ran into an aggressive loot stacker. Im sure they are out there but they are probably more of a shrouded ghost. Also I think its forgive me but a bit naive to think a portion of players would choose not to do high risk voyages without the threat of players if the choice was there for them to do just that. Of course plenty would stay in adventure mode but balance would still be affected which could drive them to the safety server aswell. I think the devs feel this way aswell which is why they have been vocal about not safe place to grind and no PvE servers and I would think they would know best.

We both agree however a PvE adventure mode is not a good idea so nothing much to debate between us on that topic. Think we are on the same page.

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

So, one thing that's being talked about is something where the PvE world is one with the more low impact runs that players far more rarely engage with in the full world because their low rewards make them feel not worth it alongside the high risk nature of player attack. One of the other parts of such a world is that since one of the main side things that PvP does is add on unexpected play time, it would allow people with short or very prescribed windows to engage with the game more regularly, keeping it in their regular rotation and so increasing the chances that they will play it for longer.

Perhaps. Sea of Thieves is definitely a game best enjoyed in large chunks, but for those without the time, I can see why it would feel unfair. As for the low-impact runs, it largely depends.

The top three that I mention are racing, fishing and journal hunting, which often seem too low reward to bother with in the full world (particularly racing which should be a zero risk engagement but generally seems to be one of the most deadly emergent behaviours you can attempt to engage in).

I'm still iffy on that. In my opinion, a PvE server would have to have no trading company progression, and with no gold earned on loot turn ins (or perhaps only 5-10% of the original value to compensate for time). It would basically be what the private servers are, but public. That way you can still experience what PvE experiences the game has to offer, but without it affecting the balance of the main game. This includes Tall Tales, by the way. You just wouldn't earn the commendations for doing them, but you would still experience the story. The players who are fine with not earning levels/commendations/cosmetics could do all they want in the PvE servers. I'd even allow for achievements/commendations for things like racing to be gotten in a PvE server. It's annoying enough to find a ship that wants to ally with you. Even tougher to find someone willing to set aside their time to race you.

As far as things like fishing go, I personally believe that Hunter's Call needs an entire rework, as part of a larger PvE rework that would allow for Hunter's Call voyages (imagine if skeletons weren't the default baddies on an island, and were replaced with varied animals like wild boars or other animals that do more than stand there and hiss at you). At the very least, fishing needs to be more rewarding. It's the lowest return on investment. I don't think the solution to the fishing problem is "put it on a different server so it can be done undisturbed."

Journal hunting is easy enough, and it also doesn't carry with it the risk of losing progress if someone sinks your ship. I've found most of them organically, and I know where to look for the others just by looking at the commendations for it. There are some that have been put in really bad spots (like the one on Crooked Masts), but once again, the solution to that isn't "put it on a different server so it can be done undisturbed." Now, you could use a PvE server to learn where a journal is (although I prefer just looking it up if I can't find it), but I don't think it should provide a reward beyond learning the lore.

I'd like to see racing become its own thing, personally, perhaps even with pre-plotted courses.

One of the major other areas for the PvE system to cover would be something to ease the learning curve cliff such that fewer new players are put off the game (and put their friends off it), good suggestions here are an extended maiden voyage that actually tries to teach you something useful about the game and non-direct conflict PvP competitions (score attack etc.).

Maiden voyage is in dire need of attention. It's cool and cinematic, and it teaches you the very most basics of playing the game, but it still puts you well below the general skill floor for the actual Sea of Thieves experience. I legitimately didn't know that I could turn my ship's sails for a good several hours after being done with the Maiden Voyage. It wasn't until I joined my friend's crew that I saw them turn their sails. I'd love to see a reworked "beginners-only" experience. I also wouldn't mind being able to set a "mentor" option when choosing an Open crew. The Mentor option would make it so only new/inexperienced players join up, and you can then show them the ropes of being a true pirate.

Personally I'm of the opinion that a simple de-brief option to allow new players to more accurately frame their experience in the game would be very helpful in that regard also.

A debrief would be nice, but I'm not sure how it would be done or what information would be covered.

My final opinion on the matter is that Rare needs to put a lot of work into the game as a whole before even considering PvE servers. The PvE gameplay loop is stale and boring, like I said in my original post. It needs a full and in-depth rework before I'd say PvE servers (even with heavily nerfed progression) are viable. There is still zero endgame content that isn't just "do the things you did before, but now as a Pirate Legend and the skeletons are all damage sponges." PvE isn't robust enough for me to say that it would be even worth running and maintaining extra servers just for the people who don't have the time to play the game as intended.

I vote no to Pve progression servers....
However since I see a lot of I was solo for hours then pvp happened posts let em have the pve server with a separate character let them sail to their hearts content let them progress as far as they want to go but leave that progression on the pve server. When they finally find the intestinal fortitude to come back to the real game let them pick back up with the pvpve progression that they left off on. That would work for me anyway. I mean really it's not like they ever have any loot anyway getting griefed at the outpost being spawn camped over and over by that elite galleon of pirate legend commandos. I'd rather fight those guys anyway they sound fun.

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo

Yet you have not given a single valid argument for your standpoint. You claim you aren't in favor of the PvE version, but you are here discussing with multiple people about how it would be implemented, how it wouldn't be that bad and making unfounded claims that it wouldn't have a big impact on the servers as we know it. How exactly are you not in favor of PVE adventure mode? For crying out loud, do I really have to go back into the last couple of pages to quote every single time you fight people on the notion that Adventure PVE mode is a horrible idea, where you are the one down playing it.

Because explaining how something could be implemented and saying that implementing it is a good idea are two different things. Someone asked a question about how it would be implemented, so I gave an answer because that's what you do when people ask questions. As I pointed out, if you say that its impossible to kill someone with a knife, pointing out that it isn't and how you could do it isn't the same as saying that its a good idea.

Since you love your analogies; If you are not in favor of eating meat, but argue that the breeding of animals is not very harmful to the environment, that slaughterhouses are easily setup and achievable, that it would promote more jobs and increase the profit that can be made... are you truly against eating meat?

Yes. Because someone can understand that there are more than three, or four, or any number of issues related to a single thing. In your analogy the individual in question could easily hold that killing animals for food is morally wrong and so make all the arguments you suggest and be truly against eating meat. All it takes is for someone to care about whether other arguments that are presented should be accurate and intelligent.

The goals you claim to want to achieve and the standpoints, the people you decide to fight on their standpoints are very conflicting.

I don't think so, my goal is to try and discuss what actual changes people actually want. As such I keep trying to bring up those changes and when people attack the straw man of a PvE server that no-one wants, point out that its a straw man, and when people attack the straw man on some technical point I try to point out the inaccuracy of the attack to facilitate moving on. There are one or two people who are obsessed with attacking the straw man, but once I see that they're only on to make rhetorical points I try not to engage with them. It doesn't seem to stop all of them, but I think on balance its going okay.

If you want quality interactions, if you want ship battles, if you want to be left alone... learn to play the game before you start preaching to me about what you can achieve in the game. Most of your complaints are a non-factor for me, because I can use the tools in the game to be a PVE lord or a PVP lord or a negotiator that you truly don't want to double cross and really want to strike a deal with. This doesn't mean that I don't think the game has areas it needs improving, but darn people are so unwilling to master a game now a days.

Sure. You've already mentioned on here about how you would destroy a ship parked at an outpost without making any attempt to read its intention or purpose so now claiming to make negotiations and interactions is a little ridiculous. But sure, the game suddenly becomes a world of deep and emergent player interactions when and only if you achieve total mastery of it, and that is in no way a flaw or problem for the game.

Come back when you have more than your I assume and this is what I consider fun. The majority of people are not like you, the majority of people have a complete different definition of fun than you and those statements go for everyone. Bring reasons, motivations, logic... arguments based on something other than assumptions and subjective notions of fun.

So, you want an argument that's based on motivations in a game, but not based on notions of fun? Honestly, why do you play the game? The reason that I make statements about what I think and what I assume is that I know that's what I'm doing. You're doing it too, you just couch everything you say as facts but they're not, not any more than mine. Like here, you just stated that the majority of people have a different definition of fun from me. Based on what? Have you surveyed the majority of people? Even the majority of people in this game? Do you have a poll of at least 8 million of the 15 million users of the game? Could you please give us your references for these claims? If you don't have something to back them up, they're just assumptions.

You know why it feels like talking to a wall? Because your only counter argument is, but my assumptions... you don't actually bring any counter argument. This last response showcases that. Instead of focusing on the content and the subject, the bulk of the post... you know the actual questions you asked about the game, you focus on one sentence that has nothing to do with it.

I focused on the one sentence that explains why I stop responding to you. Because its not about a worthwhile discussion about the game, it never is. Its about going around and around talking about things that don't matter and aren't capable of progress, about semantics and side alleys. I keep telling you that I'm not interested in a full PvE server, you keep insisting that I am and re-stuffing the straw man for another round, just let it go. I'm not going to argue with you for something that I'm not for. You don't grasp the idea that someone can both understand that slaughter houses are cheap and easy to set up and provide jobs but that they could at the same time be morally wrong, you don't grasp the idea that I can hold that a presented flaw in an argument isn't a flaw whilst not holding to the conclusions of the argument, fine, but I'm just not willing to continue to make that lack of a grasp of the situation into a basis for debate.

@combatxkitty said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gtothefo said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:
So what are you saying? We need more friendly activities to do? What would you suggest? I always thought it would be fun if you could play card games or whatever at the tavern.

I think I'd just like to see more emergent reasons to approach people peacefully and with some actual in game motivations to reward it. I think there are a range of possible versions of how it could work, off the top of my head here are a few:
If some deliveries had split fees when handed in to someone else. So If I meet someone and they're going to the other side of the map where my crate needs to be delivered when I want to go the other way, I could hand it over to them and we both benefit.
When you talk to someone peacefully you could trade or copy treasure maps. I'm always picking up messages in bottles that are way out of my way, I'd be happy to swap them with someone who has one for the island that I'm on my way to do a story mission on.
Racing could have more than a one off reward. So when you stop next to a ship you could have a racing mission come up as an option, if you both vote for it it names a nearby island, first person there wins x gold off the other.
Trophy fish could be worth more to the Hunter's Call if you show them to another pirate first.
Some missions could require two part keys that no single crew can ever collect so you need to work together to get into the vault, but you never know whether to trust them once you're inside.
Like I say, they're all just examples, I'm sure they could come up with far better ones. Its just, at the moment there are a range of in game rewards associated with attacking someone else when I meet them and pretty much zero associated with interacting with them in any other way, which seems like putting a thumb on the scales for a game that's meant to feature a range of emergent Player interactions.

Well if someone really doesnt want to attempt to learn the basics of defending themselves I would say for them atleast learn running tactics. I mean I dont know what else to suggest, this is not a treasure digging simulator , never meant to be one, its a PvPvE game. Devs cant make everyone happy can they?

No, and "Not everything can be for everyone" is a perfectly good answer. I just don't hold to answers that are along the lines of "you knew what you were getting into" is all.

The only thing that could be created would be a PvE mode with its own faction where maybe you race to dig up a chest? Kinda like the time runs you mentioned. However still I think it would get boring if that is all someone bought the game to do just like I would think someone would get bored of Arena after awhile so when it comes to someone like that I am not sure if a PvE mode that doesnt compete with main adventure would keep them happy.

I mean, people play clicker games so I'm not going to judge what makes them bored or not. The thing with something like the chest speed run is that I'd not see it as a replacement for the game, so much as a taster or reminder of it when you're not in the place to get fully into it. If I played nothing but that then sure, I'd be bored senseless, but I think of it for those times when I think "I've got x time, shall I play SoT? No, if I need to get around someone I'll never get anything done. Pity, I really want to play in that world, never mind, I'll play y instead.". I also really think that how quickly you can get onto an island, claim its treasure and get off again is a big survival skill for PvE players, especially new ones. If someone did play that game to death, I think it would help their full game performance as a PvE player also.

I do not fail to see what someone belief of a lack of emergent behaviors in Sea of Thieves has to do with learning basic tactics to protect their treasure and ship so I am not sure how to respond to this point.

Sorry, wasn't a point, just a piece of personal anecdote.

Honestly I wish people would stay on their ships more and fight but boarding is the quicker way I guess but my best ship battles have always been when both sides did not rely on boarding.

Such is life. One of the big reasons that I picked up Sea Of Thieves is that I've always enjoyed sailing combat games where judging wind gauges and vectors of approach were a big feature. I'm lucky that I've come to enjoy the exploring and PvE side of the game so much but I still think its a pity and I have a lot of sympathy for people who get annoyed at the fact that so much PvP in the game is old school FPS shooters with boats.

I dont think can compare fishing for the right fish to the variety of other ways to gain treasure and use that as a "see why would PvE players choose to play on a PvE only server when they can just be fishing and only fishing in main adventure?". Just because someone is a PvE'er does not mean they only want to do the same thing every time they log on. So yes they go with the risk now because they have no choice other than I guess to fish? I guess I am trying to say I do not think that is a proper gauge.

Sure, I guess I find the categorization of playing the PvE side of the game to be "grinding" a little jarring. To me grinding is doing something that you don't find fun over and over to gain incremental but safe rewards. As such the characterization of someone going out, sailing a stormy sea, landing on an island to figure out a treasure map then fighting a skeleton captain and defeating a kraken on the way back as "grinding" just always seems odd to me is all.

We both agree however a PvE adventure mode is not a good idea so nothing much to debate between us on that topic. Think we are on the same page.

Indeed, as I've said before, I don't think debates over how the player base would or wouldn't react to a PvE server and why is moving anyone further along.

@gtothefo
Don't you understand that making the case for the implementation how how that is done, is presenting yourself as someone that's in favor of it? You keep down playing the impact it would have on the world. You are by definition defending its creation. I have seen flaws in your anti-griefing technical aspects, yet I am not going to go into them, because in my opinion it is irrelevant to the discussion as it shouldn't be implemented to begin with. Why argue about the implementation, if you believe it should never happen to begin with? If you believe it is harmful to the game, why argue that it is able to be done and easy, not as bad as people claim... people state they will still play the game? You downplay it and pretty much express support for it by proxy.

Yes, when I want to end my session and there is someone at the outpost... I will destroy their ship and get rid of them to sell in peace. I have no intentions of being friendly at that time and if they wreck me, they get all the loot that I have gathered. Who is exactly bearing the risk at that point in time, the fresh spawn that I attack or me with the loot? You complain about PVPers not taking risks, but shame me for doing just that? Ooh is it because I win those battles against the empty ship with my fully loaded one?

Mastery of the game will give you more control over the session you play.
If you feel like you cannot get into a ship on ship battle, maybe you should learn how to create them?
If you feel like you never get to negotiate a peace treaty, maybe you should learn how to create them?
If you feel like you never want to engage in PVP battle, maybe you should learn how to avoid them?
If you feel like you want to tuck away in sneaky positions to steal from others, you should learn how to approach unnoticed?

Competence, Challenge, Self improvement... are also motivators of playing you know. Getting good is also fun... You want to have an in depth reason why the motivation for playing in a PvEvP environment? Do you know that fun in games is created out of the 4 main types: Killer, Achievers, Socializers, Explorers. In order to create a PvEvP world they need to create reasons for these to be sought out to be done in the world created. You have the extrinsic and intrinsic motivational factors that come into play. Developers cannot influence the intrinsic motivational factors and cannot rely on them to generate a balance in a game. They create the extrinsic motivational factors that connect with the types of motivations that people seek. If you want to create a shared world, you cannot just rely on the internal definition of peoples fun, because based on their mood, time of day, etc. it shifts and by those same means they will make different choices.

Your entire argument relies on and only on the intrinsic motivational factors of players, which is a bad argument. The developers with the use of extrinsic motivators are supposed to create and kindle our intrinsic ones to make the choices that cause for the balance they seek. If there is no reason to expose yourself to a killer as an explorer you simply won't do it. Because the killers goals and motivations are actually counter to that of the explorer's. Killers are active and player driven, while explorers are interactive and world driven. The idea of the sea of thieves is to create a world where they have a shared world... not one that you pick which intrinsic motivation is driving you and pick what fits those needs better, while removing the others completely out of the world.

You act like you understand what motivation and fun means, how that is used in game design. Yet frankly it doesn't sound like you do. How do I know? Because it is the basics of game design and the psychology behind it, which yes is exactly what I studied for multiple years. Look up the taxonomy of player types, Player Experience of Need Satisfaction and Taste maps, just to get an idea of what you are delving into. Here you go, the foundation of my argument, based on science.

If you create separate modes for specific taste maps, players will pick and choose between them based on their goals, mood and motivations of that session. This is what I talk about when I state that people will pick at the menu screen.

Now, where is your underlying foundation on: most people will just keep playing PvEvP?

Like if you want me to go in depth into the theory... I can. Yet I usually don't, because frankly most people don't care about it. Provide me with a foundation of your claims, I might learn something.

@jmcafreak said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

I'm still iffy on that. In my opinion, a PvE server would have to have no trading company progression, and with no gold earned on loot turn ins (or perhaps only 5-10% of the original value to compensate for time). It would basically be what the private servers are, but public. That way you can still experience what PvE experiences the game has to offer, but without it affecting the balance of the main game. This includes Tall Tales, by the way. You just wouldn't earn the commendations for doing them, but you would still experience the story. The players who are fine with not earning levels/commendations/cosmetics could do all they want in the PvE servers. I'd even allow for achievements/commendations for things like racing to be gotten in a PvE server. It's annoying enough to find a ship that wants to ally with you. Even tougher to find someone willing to set aside their time to race you.

The hard question about a zero progression server is, would all the missions be unlocked in it? There are lots of missions that are not available to a first level player such as treasure vaults and ghost ship missions. If the only missions available are the absolute first level ones then it would quickly not be worth bothering with, if it has them all open I think it would be an even quicker drain on the game than a full progression PvE server.

Personally I'd be more inclined to just cut out the main three guilds and Reaper's Bones entirely out of such a server and then leave the rest of it more or less as is.

As far as things like fishing go, I personally believe that Hunter's Call needs an entire rework, as part of a larger PvE rework that would allow for Hunter's Call voyages (imagine if skeletons weren't the default baddies on an island, and were replaced with varied animals like wild boars or other animals that do more than stand there and hiss at you). At the very least, fishing needs to be more rewarding. It's the lowest return on investment. I don't think the solution to the fishing problem is "put it on a different server so it can be done undisturbed."

Weirdly its actually one of the biggest returns in investment. The highest value fish in the game is around 16k, making it the most valuable thing you can sell by some distance. Still, I don't think that a separate server for fishing is needed, but if there is a separate game mode being suggested then I think that the unstealable nature of fish makes them a natural inclusion. The point would be that other players can make other reward items more exciting since they can steal them off you in one way or another, since they can't do that with fish unless you choose to put them in a barrel there's very little in the way of fun or exciting player interactions available with the whole fishing mechanic so it feels like there would be very little loss from at least allowing it in a PvE environment. Particularly since most fishing seems to go on during the journey between islands its one activity that would probably see zero decline if offered in PvE.

Journal hunting is easy enough, and it also doesn't carry with it the risk of losing progress if someone sinks your ship. I've found most of them organically, and I know where to look for the others just by looking at the commendations for it. There are some that have been put in really bad spots (like the one on Crooked Masts), but once again, the solution to that isn't "put it on a different server so it can be done undisturbed." Now, you could use a PvE server to learn where a journal is (although I prefer just looking it up if I can't find it), but I don't think it should provide a reward beyond learning the lore.

Again, I think that its then more about what could sensibly be offered in the PvE server without significantly effecting the main game rather than what needs its own area. The thing with journals is, apart from a few exceptions, once you know exactly where it physically is there's very little challenge in getting to it so with-holding any reward for what looks like little more than busy work at that point seems a little odd. One of the main things about journals is that in the main game they just get left off if people don't bump into them naturally because hanging about on islands when carrying loot is pretty unwise. Its not about what must have its whole own server so much as if there was a new server, what would be nice to have on it, which little bits of the game don't get any attention when the full game is running and would be nice to take a leisurely stroll to check out.

I'd like to see racing become its own thing, personally, perhaps even with pre-plotted courses.

Very much me too. It seems a real pity that there's a racing flag and a racing achievement but nothing more to it than that.

Maiden voyage is in dire need of attention. It's cool and cinematic, and it teaches you the very most basics of playing the game, but it still puts you well below the general skill floor for the actual Sea of Thieves experience. I legitimately didn't know that I could turn my ship's sails for a good several hours after being done with the Maiden Voyage. It wasn't until I joined my friend's crew that I saw them turn their sails. I'd love to see a reworked "beginners-only" experience. I also wouldn't mind being able to set a "mentor" option when choosing an Open crew. The Mentor option would make it so only new/inexperienced players join up, and you can then show them the ropes of being a true pirate.

That's another nice idea actually. I think a few people would like to see a Maiden Voyage that gets you to fire a cannon at a moving target, teaches how to use the tall tale checkpoints and the various alternative uses of items. To be honest, a key on the map would be a nice addition.

A debrief would be nice, but I'm not sure how it would be done or what information would be covered.

I would think it depends on the complexity of the information that gets tracked at any point anyway, but one thing I think would be a big help would be a map that plots the player's course and shows the course of any ships that were within a certain distance during the session. If only so that if someone thinks they were Outpost camped they can check out the map and find out if they actually were, or if they were just unlucky or advertised their position, and even if they were camped they can at least see how rare and unlikely that sort of behaviour actually is or isn't.

My final opinion on the matter is that Rare needs to put a lot of work into the game as a whole before even considering PvE servers. The PvE gameplay loop is stale and boring, like I said in my original post. It needs a full and in-depth rework before I'd say PvE servers (even with heavily nerfed progression) are viable. There is still zero endgame content that isn't just "do the things you did before, but now as a Pirate Legend and the skeletons are all damage sponges." PvE isn't robust enough for me to say that it would be even worth running and maintaining extra servers just for the people who don't have the time to play the game as intended.

I think the level of work of a full PvE server is one of the big reasons that its not a strong contender as a serious ask, especially with its low potential gameplay rewards. Far more interesting would be tweaks to the existing areas such as extending Maiden Voyage and upping some of the potential for player interaction in the main game.

@cotu42 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

Like if you want me to go in depth into the theory... I can. Yet I usually don't want to flaunt with it, because frankly most people don't care about it. Provide me with a foundation of your claims, I might learn something.

Seriously, I'm not going to start exchanging qualifications in game design and psychology. I'm well aware of Bartle's taxonomy of player types, but the claim that the goal of Sea of Thieves is to create a shared Killer/Explorer world is, if it is the case, is to talk of a more complex second order Explorer version who sees experimenting with emergent content as inherent to the exploration of the game, to such a player, the form of Explorer who might be attracted to the game, player interaction is an inherent form of Exploration. Its for these reasons that Bartle's model is now seen as not particularly helpful, and particularly not relevant to any MMO, you should probably read up on the work of Jon Radoff or Nick Yee or check out the factorial analysis of Bartle's model in relation to MMO games.

But, again, I don't think there should be a full adventure mode PvE version of the game. I don't, I just don't. Please stop acting like I do, please start interacting with some of the more interesting and relevant discussions that are going on about how to tweak, add to and change the game. This discussion is a total waste of time.