@likavoss I'm not talking about 0.99 price tags. I'm talking about sleazy bullsh*t like the third party currency, so you always pay extra. And we, as consumers, shouldn't roll over and take it. This is especially true because accepting mildy sleazy business like this opens the door for worse and worse practices. Look at how lootboxes developed.
Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium
@wilbymagicbear but it’s not deceptive. Exchange of currency is up front, prices are clear, and it’s voluntary, not mandated.
It’s not sleezy or deceptive. You don’t have to agree with it, or support it. But please stop misrepresenting that it’s a misleading practice.
@likavoss It being deceptive isn't really the main point. Also, I'm not really refering to to the middleman when I talk about deception. It certainly is sleazy to have customers pay extra and get nothing for it, and the currency packs are clearly set in ways to ensure you always pay extra.
@wilbymagicbear but that’s not sleezy. It’s clearly indicated on both the currency and the price of the items. It’s also not likely intended to be a single transaction, as they mentioned it’s updated monthly. Therefore over time your currency will not be wasted.
@likavoss It's is sleazy. 99% of buyers will have currency left over. Heck (we all know what I mean here), the very existence of a middleman currency proves its sleaze. The only reason for it to exist is to screw the consumer.
@wilbymagicbear I'd imagine it would make things much more simple to implement on the dev side. Not dealing with regionalization, fluctuating currencies, state/national regulations, etc.
@wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@mc-leggers You're missing the point. They can monetize honostly. What they're doing right now is deceptive, and they should be more honost.
They are a business...They maximise profits, name a business that doesn't do that?
I'm no fan of buying fake currencies in order to pay for things. Ever since I was a child going to arcades, I saw buying tokens for the greedy practice it is. I DO wish they could have made a stance with the pricing and avoided the *99 price nonsense.
That said, in reply to the bit about pets being emotionally manipulative - if only there were examples of players sharing images of their pirates, their clothing, their equipment, weapons, and their ships - and their adventures, conquests, and tales... what a shame Rare has given its consumers things they feel an attachment and investment with. :D
;oPBack to the Ancient Coins, however. Fortunately, for myself, I'm fine with having leftover, because I only bought what I felt I currently wanted from the choices, and am happy to put more money into the game and its continued development and maintenance. I've been here since the launch and plan to be here for much more time, so, I am sure I'll be spending more of the coins I have remaining, and intend to add more when I see more things I'd be happy to acquire.
I can both see through the marketing manipulation AND find my own value for what I am investing in. :)
@electricknights well said. I’m of like mind with your feedback.
Just seems odd to rage about the whole MTX piece when the end result will be improvement, resources, and long term growth.
Loving the game and I’m glad it’ll get a boost.
@likavoss sagte in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@wilbymagicbear but that’s not sleezy. It’s clearly indicated on both the currency and the price of the items. It’s also not likely intended to be a single transaction, as they mentioned it’s updated monthly. Therefore over time your currency will not be wasted.
With one ancient coin beeing left with each purchase and prices ending with 99, you would have theoretically buy 99 items with it to be able to empty your AC wallet. That works with real money quite well, because you buy all the time stuff from different stores all the time. But with a single mtx currency store it's impossible for a regular customer to achieve that.
@likavoss sagte in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@wilbymagicbear I'd imagine it would make things much more simple to implement on the dev side. Not dealing with regionalization, fluctuating currencies, state/national regulations, etc.
Also making it easier to organize giveaways of ancient coins and doing something like the ancient skeletons. A MTX currency has it's advantages and isn't problematic in itself. Problematic is that the way you can gain the currency combined with the AC prices. The whole concept is designed in a way that you can't get maximum value out of AC purchase.
@mc-leggers sagte in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@mc-leggers You're missing the point. They can monetize honostly. What they're doing right now is deceptive, and they should be more honost.
They are a business...They maximise profits, name a business that doesn't do that?
And we are customers. We are free to point out, when a business isn't customer friendly.
@eisentraenen said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@likavoss sagte in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@wilbymagicbear but that’s not sleezy. It’s clearly indicated on both the currency and the price of the items. It’s also not likely intended to be a single transaction, as they mentioned it’s updated monthly. Therefore over time your currency will not be wasted.
With one ancient coin beeing left with each purchase and prices ending with 99, you would have theoretically buy 99 items with it to be able to empty your AC wallet. That works with real money quite well, because you buy all the time stuff from different stores all the time. But with a single mtx currency store it's impossible for a regular customer to achieve that.
@likavoss sagte in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@wilbymagicbear I'd imagine it would make things much more simple to implement on the dev side. Not dealing with regionalization, fluctuating currencies, state/national regulations, etc.
Also making it easier to organize giveaways of ancient coins and doing something like the ancient skeletons. A MTX currency has it's advantages and isn't problematic in itself. Problematic is that the way you can gain the currency combined with the AC prices. The whole concept is designed in a way that you can't get maximum value out of AC purchase.
@mc-leggers sagte in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@mc-leggers You're missing the point. They can monetize honostly. What they're doing right now is deceptive, and they should be more honost.
They are a business...They maximise profits, name a business that doesn't do that?
And we are customers. We are free to point out, when a business isn't customer friendly.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. You get ripped off everywhere, do you approach everything in that matter?. This isn't your utility bill. Absolutely nothing happens if you decide to not buy anything. This game has been rolling off a one time purchase forever now. It doesn't have the playerbase it used to have. The only thing people are doing is supporting the people who work on the content you log into and play. They haven't nickled and dimed hustled anyone.
@mc-leggers said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@mc-leggers You're missing the point. They can monetize honostly. What they're doing right now is deceptive, and they should be more honost.
They are a business...They maximise profits, name a business that doesn't do that?
That's what business do if their customers let them. Why are we letting them?
@wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
That's what business do if their customers let them. Why are we letting them?
We let them when we feel it's worth it. It's not something we can just slap a general list of rules on and call it a day.
It's always going to be a push and pull between the two. Companies need to make money to continue making and growing their product. Customers need to feel the company is being fair with them to the best of their ability.
And while many business practices can be written off as bad, much of it comes down to a case by case basis. It's like the Epic exclusivity controversy. While I view something like Borderlands 3 taking the deal as a blatant money grab, I'm more sympathetic towards a small, indie developer.
Personally, I find Rare's implementation to be pretty fair. While I would prefer straight transactions, the Ancient Coins do allow for stuff like the skeletons, giveaways, etc.
As a customer, I've looked at Rare's setup and decided it falls within my window of acceptability. Other customers will come to their own conclusions and the market will live or die on it.
Granted, it could just be fatigue from the rest of the game industry. After egregious random loot boxes, stacked matchmaking, and manipulative progression systems and mechanics; maybe straight-up sly capitalism seems like a refreshing change of pace.
Also, I haven't actually bought anything from the Emporium yet, so...... =P
@wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@boxcar-squidy Have you seen, or spoken to anyone who has seen an aincent skeleton?
I still have never seen the Shrouded Ghost and have been playing this thing since day 1
@weedstar-deluxe said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
but where is the point buying skins instead get them through gaming?
According to Rare, the Emporium will be for ship cosmetics based on other Rare properties or other games like the Spartan set. Specialty sets in the Emporium with traditional sets still obtained the traditional way.
Whether or not that stays the case will have to be seen.
@wilbymagicbear no one is saying you’re not entitled to your voice. People are calling out it’s not “sleazy” or unethical though. But definition that determines that the rules of the transaction are favoured, adjusted, or changed to benefit one party. That isn’t the case here.
If you don’t like it you’re correct to voice your opinion. Just as people are who support MTX. I do take issue with how you indicated something you don’t agreement with is unethical, when it simply isn’t.
If you went to purchase ancient coins and you got 599 instead of the 1249 advertised, that would be a poor practice. But all consumers are well aware of the pricing structure, currency, and product prior to making a transaction.
@eisentraenen said in [Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium]
With one ancient coin beeing left with each purchase and prices ending with 99, you would have theoretically buy 99 items with it to be able to empty your AC wallet. That works with real money quite well, because you buy all the time stuff from different stores all the time. But with a single mtx currency store it's impossible for a regular customer to achieve that.
Fair comment. But everyone was aware of the ancient coin pricing before converting currency, and people know their in-game purchase is on average approximately $5 or $20.
It’s not unethical. Customers determine the value was acceptable prior to purchasing. Is the pricing structure fantastic? No probably has some improvement. Is it ripping people off and sleazy? No, it’s not.
@likavoss said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@eisentraenen said in [Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium]
With one ancient coin beeing left with each purchase and prices ending with 99, you would have theoretically buy 99 items with it to be able to empty your AC wallet. That works with real money quite well, because you buy all the time stuff from different stores all the time. But with a single mtx currency store it's impossible for a regular customer to achieve that.
Fair comment. But everyone was aware of the ancient coin pricing before converting currency, and people know their in-game purchase is on average approximately $5 or $20.
It’s not unethical. Customers determine the value was acceptable prior to purchasing. Is the pricing structure fantastic? No probably has some improvement. Is it ripping people off and sleazy? No, it’s not.
Nah sorry I disagree with the determination of value there.
The main contention here is that the customer wants to get to "step 3" of the transaction for example receipt of the pet or emote.
In most cases the customer isn't thinking " I want to buy that currency pack because I desire that currency alone" instead it's more " I HAVE to buy this currency pack to get the pet I desire, otherwise i can't perform the transaction "
Point being if the customer wants a item, arguably their only choice to obtain it moneterialy is to buy a item that in all honesty isn't really necessary.
Why not instead put the items for sale at a set monetary price straight up? and not a In game currency that is sold in packs that are clearly sold in totals in virtual currency higher than those of the items in each respective price bracket?
They are deliberately selling packs of currency that are more than what is required for items in that bracket, to which normal logic dictates that you are spending more than you have to be with regards to the cosmetics virtual currency price and the amount of virtual currency you have to purchase.
I would actually agree that this is a pretty scummy and shady move.
Of course if the currency packs were 1 to 1 in respect to the items being sold for currency, then I would 100% agree with your sentiment, bit it just isn't the case is it.
✌️
@wilbymagicbear said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@crazed-corsair The amount of people saying this like this genuinely concerns me. Are we really so stupid and weak-willed as a society? Honest monetization is not an unreasonable ask.
No, most of the people don't care as it's not an addiction. They know it makes absolutely 0 difference to their gameplay. It's a simple concept, just don't buy it if you don't want it. Rare is a business. They have to make money. People have to make money to survive. How they make it is up to them.
@troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
I would actually agree that this is a pretty scummy and shady move.
It's manipulative.
Scummy and shady...... that might be a bit far.
And yes, there is a difference. All advertising is inherently manipulative. Companies don't give coupons out of the goodness of their hearts; they do it to entice you into the store to buy their product.
And that's really the truth behind the whole thing. The Emporium isn't really there to benefit us. It's there to benefit Rare. We may see some kickback in the form of more support for the game; but it is mainly there to make SoT financially viable for Rare.
So, of course, Rare is going to try and entice you to use the Emporium. They can do this through advertising the items, having sales, selling bundles, and, yes, selling odd amounts of ingame currency.
It's a cheap form of manipulation, but doesn't cross any major lines for me. You can buy what you want, there's no randomized purchases, and no "endless" purchasables.
Yes, it's manipulative. But scummy and shady? I don't think I'd say that.
Hombre
I'm glad you said manipulative.
For me that does fall in to the scummy and shady territory and certainly don't feel it's a stretch regardless of rules and regulations etc.
Are they the first to do it ? No. Will they be the last? Absolutely not.
But rare can certainly go and have a certain form of glutenous pro creation with themselves on this one 😉
@likavoss said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@troubled-cells Meh, looks like the community is divided. I’m sure it would change if people didn’t purchase. Given how many pets I’ve seen in game and on reddit/discord, seems like most of the community is comfortable purchasing it under the current system.
Good for them, but as you said the community is divided, so clearly there is a issue with arguably a decent number of the playerbase equally, rare should be striving to be better.
Like I said before, what's the problem with pricing the items with straight up real world money ?
If they took this approach the only other valid criticism of this system would be the pricing of the ship cosmetics, and arguably would make more sales than they are now.
Which as many many pro MTX folks here insist mo money = mo content right ?
🧐
@troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
For me that does fall in to the scummy and shady territory and certainly don't feel it's a stretch regardless of rules and regulations etc.
I mean, if that's your view, then fair enough. I'm not going to pretend like mine is any more valid than your's.
But by that definition, every company is scummy in one way or another. Trying to entice customers to your product is, in and of itself, manipulative. Even if all you're doing is listing the superior features your product has over your competitor's, you are technically trying to manipulate the social narrative to benefit yourself.
I'm not saying not to criticize; by all means do. If Rare starts releasing regular ship skins or consumable "convenience" items in the Emporium, I will be the first to call foul. But breaking out words like scummy, shady, scam, etc, feels too close to a strawman argument for my tastes.
If we stray too far into hyperbole, the legitimate concerns and arguments would lose a lot of their validity.
Hombre
I'm also glad you made the point every company is scummy by my logic as well.
To which I would double down on that with regards to most big companies in the modern world.
Weather it's pricing manipulation, advertising, zero hour contracts etc there is lots of commonly used practices by companies that are scummy.
Are they illegal? Most likely not. But at the same time doesn't give actions a free pass on being scummy does from the consumer.
Still strange how no one yet has rebuttled the point of why not just straight up make each item available with a nations currency ? To avert this criticism, or at the very least get rid of the spare change aspect of the virtual currency packs.
Rare , you can do better, there's no way around it.
It's valid criticism for the right reasons.
I gladly gave them my $34.99 for a bundle of coins (much of which I still have left to spend in the following month or months).
However, I do wish Rare would have (or, perhaps, was able to) avoid two things that fairly lead to criticism and causes some negative viewpoints from some of the community.Rare has earned a tremendous brand, if you will, of being honest, down-to-earth, friendly people running an atypical, and progressive, business. If they could have avoided the $.99 tactic and the set bundles of currency tactics, I believe far fewer people would have as much negativity towards their new store (not to mention, maybe they could have been a beacon for how business can be done differently, but still successfully). That being said, I think the majority of people are very positive about their store - so, I am not trying to make a case otherwise. I'm just saying, Rare has often proven they are capable of, and willing, to buck trends and do things the way they think are more fair and reasonable (or fun and silly, depending on the matter, lol). And I do wish they had done this store system differently, at the very least, so that we wouldn't have this divide and debate that will likely rage on for as long as there is a horizon. ;)
@troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
Still strange how no one yet has rebuttled the point of why not just straight up make each item available with a nations currency ? To avert this criticism, or at the very least get rid of the spare change aspect of the virtual currency packs.
No, people have addressed that. It's simpler for Rare, allows for stuff like the Ancient Skeletons, and could even allow them to test Emporium stuff in the Insider build by crediting Ancient Coins to Insiders.
Of course, having straight purchases has advantages too (ones that I, myself, kind of prefer), and the ideal situation would be the ability to do both. But there ARE advantages to the ingame currency model. You may not find these points convincing, but it has been addressed by several people.
Hombre
Call me sceptical but my gut instinct is that the ancient skeletons are a attempt at cooling off the criticism of the currency, they can still just as easily test emporium additions without ancient coins by just having them unlocked in the inventory. So I really wouldn't call it a advantage at all.
@troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
Hombre
Call me sceptical but my gut instinct is that the ancient skeletons are a attempt at cooling off the criticism of the currency, they can still just as easily test emporium additions without ancient coins by just having them unlocked in the inventory. So I really wouldn't call it a advantage at all.
Unless they want to test out the act of purchasing itself. And I honestly wasn't putting much stock in the skeletons either until I found out someone got over 500 coins for killing one.
Sure, it's random and he may have got lucky, but just the fact that you CAN get that much has made me a little more positive on it. The rarity of them is still in question, but the amount was much higher than I expected.
Look, I'm not really trying to sell you on the Emporium. And given the current state of the games industry, I don't blame anyone for being cynical and suspicious.
I'd just like to keep the dialog in an even, realistic area rather than two extremes shouting at each other.
And P.S., that last part was more about the tone set by the OP than you. You were more "realistic cynicism" than wild Internet Rage. =)
@lethality1 said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
You need to have a more mature understanding of revenue management in a live service environment.
No, Rare shouldn't be sleazy. I'd've bought the emotes if it wasn't for the middleman. It's only reason is to rip you off.
@vac-hombre said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
@troubled-cells said in Manipulation & The Pirate Emporium:
Still strange how no one yet has rebuttled the point of why not just straight up make each item available with a nations currency ? To avert this criticism, or at the very least get rid of the spare change aspect of the virtual currency packs.
No, people have addressed that. It's simpler for Rare, allows for stuff like the Ancient Skeletons, and could even allow them to test Emporium stuff in the Insider build by crediting Ancient Coins to Insiders.
Of course, having straight purchases has advantages too (ones that I, myself, kind of prefer), and the ideal situation would be the ability to do both. But there ARE advantages to the ingame currency model. You may not find these points convincing, but it has been addressed by several people.
Then why can't you convert in smallest possible denomination? Because they want you to buy extra worthless currency.
@mc-leggers And whether or not we reward them for the obviously scammy practices like having a middleman? I don't understand why anyone would support it. (Actually, I do, it's fanboyism)
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