TDM as a feature

@lleorb except you did say that... but ok...

Ok so you recognize that your point hardly means anything. So why mention it, if not to mislead people? Even if most cheaters or toxic players are tdmers now, nothing makes new tdmers cheat or become toxic, so encouraging that form of play doesn't increase either of those metrics at all. It'd likely give it a platform like hourglass did, but that can be prevented via the anti cheat. Again, it's just causation vs correlation. Sure it's a justified stigma, or whatever you want to say, but that doesn't make the addition a bad idea at all.

Also none of the cheaters in LoT are active. Are there people in the discord server that cheat? Yes. But any that play actual matches are discovered and banned to the best of the moderators abilities. It's a public discord, if someone joins that cheats and doesn't ever play a match that is being viewed, how are they supposed to know about the cheating? That just doesn't make sense. So just broadly claiming that there are cheaters in there is about the same as saying there's an active cheater player base in SoT Official. Like duh. There is.

@veronik5682 said in TDM as a feature:

@Lleorb @Fysics3037

LoT is first and foremost a competitive naval format Discord Server, but it's been completely dead after they finished up their EU/NA after a single season. Reason being lack of communication and Nimsy (Rightfully so) kinda gave up once he realised RARE was never going to cater towards that community in giving partnered private servers a well deserved update (Resources, spectator mode) etc. NAL asked for those tools to when arena was gone, RARE didn't move an inch and cut all contact... So much for caring for community's...

LoT died cus the private servers broke for like 6 months straight. That's why there wasn't a season 2 when the planning/off season was finished. And it's not like Nimsy isn't still trying to get something going. They're currently play testing a couple new formats and gathering interest and teams for a season 2. And either way, Nimsy and the mod teams attempts at countering cheating largely worked and prove that LoT is not a bunch of closet cheaters, but rather a group of dedicated players interested in giving feedback to maintain the health of the game.

@veronik5682 I've played with more cheaters in SoT official than LoT, which really speaks to the fact the best players don't have much reason to cheat. Casual players have much more to gain via cheating, whether it's out of boredom, seeking skill levels they can't normally reach, or rewards they should not have.

@lleorb So you believe that if the "new players, PvE players, casuals, "sword lords" play a tdm mode they will become toxic? Because we know the current tdm community is toxic, that's clear, but what we're saying is that the potential future tdm community, if they added a tdm feature, wouldn't be toxic.

@lleorb I don't understand why you are constantly bringing up that a majority of cheaters tdm or double gun, or tdmers are toxic, when it doesn't say anything about tdmers, double gunners, or toxic players. You say you recognize that, so why bring it up? The only reason to bring it up would be to confuse people and spread disinformation.

Also a bad player that cheats to be better is not a good player, and that's why we exclude them from competitive communities. Your point about it just being "good moderation" doesn't make sense, because we're moderating them out of our community. So obviously they aren't part of our community and therefore using that as a point against us doesn't make any sense.

@veronik5682 mods prolly don't want "witch hunting".

Anyways, I think LoT has a decent chance as long as the game continues in a positive direction like with S15. Every comp player was at once point a casual and as casual players increase there will naturally be new comp players. It's just going to take time for it to build back up again, and if Rare breaks private servers again or makes a terrible update it's going to mean restarting again. It really just depends on the tolerance of the LoT team to keep trying despite the difficulties.

And yeah I agree that tdm community doesn't really care about cheating, but if tdm was officially implemented then you wouldn't even have to be part of the community to participate. And many other tdm communities would appear. It's not accurate to say it would cause a wave of cheating to take over the game.

@lleorb perhaps I misinterpreted what you said, based on the subject of the topic. Sorry, I do agree that most tdmers are currently toxic/more likely to cheat. The topic became about adding tdm potentially bringing more toxicity and cheating into the game, not really about whether or not toxicity/cheating existed in it. Again, I must've misinterpreted your meaning/stance based on you replying to that topic. Sorry.

@lleorb said:

If it is justifiable, by taking away something essential for these people to continue in the game (double gun) wouldn't there be a decrease in toxicity? Even if it wouldn't definitively solve the problem?

And if the vast majority of Cheaters are double gunners/TDMs, wouldn't removing this style of play reduce the use of cheats in the game? Even if it wouldn't eliminate it completely?

Ah, someone who gets it.

For the longest time, I've been advocating for the US to ban, and stop manufacturing gloves.

Most criminals use gloves to hide their dirty little fingerprints when committing crimes. So the logical solution is to get rid of gloves. That'll slow 'em down. Even if it won't eliminate crimes completely...

Right?

What exactly do you disagree with?

The entire framing of it.

Double gunning is not essential to their cheating. Their cheats are essential to their cheating. They use double guns because: 1) TTK and 2) probably because they're using aimbot to carry their double gunning.

Even if you whine until Rare makes the sword mandatory, cheaters will still cheat with the next best options that make the most use of their cheats, with the quickest TTK.

---

@Nex-Stargaze there are plenty of parents/adults who play CoD and similar games, because of how little time and effort it takes, compared to playing an entire Adventure sesh. At least before Rare streamlined voyaging with diving.

Arena had the potential to appeal to anyone who wanted quick PvP. It just lacked content and variety. If it had a TDM mode, it would've benefitted not just the TDMers, but all the people apparently traumatized by TDMers taking up space.

In any case, I don't think a separate TDM/feature is what the game needs at this stage. I think Rare's halt on HG content until they address cheating, is the right move.

In the meantime, bringing the Sea Dogs Tavern in the Sea of the Damned back would hurt absolutely nothing lol. It's out of the way. Secluded. No commendations or achievements tied to the location. People could enter at their own risk, and leave when they wanted to. Play how they wanted to.

@fysics3037 said:

...I do agree that most tdmers are currently toxic/more likely to cheat.

Based on what though?

People make all kinds of claims about how common cheating is and who does it (or doesn't do it). We don't have that data.

I've seen youtube videos that advertise PvE cheats to find chests and stuff lol. And wouldn't more HG players be likely to cheat than TDMers, as there is more to gain in HG?

At least in Arena, they had a score board to brag about. What do they even gain from cheating in an Adventure TDM that they probably queued up with their friends? Lol.

The topic became about adding tdm potentially bringing more toxicity and cheating into the game

I've stolen enough loot from dorks who drop slurs & those exchanges had nothing to do with TDMs.

In any PvP environment, in any game, you're going to find players who can't behave sportsmanlike.

You bring in more PvP, you're going to inevitably bring in more of those losers, along with all the regular folks who just PvP, say ggs, work on getting better, make friends.

Normal human interaction isn't exclusive to people who use a sword and prefer PvE.

@lleorb said:

Do these criminals stay in crime SO they can wear gloves?

Of course not. In the same way that cheaters don't cheat just so they can double gun.

There are cheats that advertise loot ESP. You think they're solely marketing to double gunners?

The Double Gun is essential to keep them in the game, to keep them playing. This is evident in all the scaremongering like "Bring QS back or the game will die"

Rare took a firm stance on QS, and started banning for it eventually in the game's life. They were lenient about it before. I openly talked about using the exploit when it was available, as it was easy for me to do as a controller player.

People still double gun without QS. And not everyone who still double guns, is crying for QS to return. I only play this game once every few months now, but I have friends who still play almost weekly, and still double gun in PvP.

Even before it was patched, there were people who used double guns without any QSing.

And what does this have anything to do with cheaters? You seem to be hung up on just one segment of cheaters.

You don't know who is closeted, and using cheats for what purpose. Yet, you insist that because the cheaters you run into use double guns, that the issue can be resolved by removing double guns.

Classic example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, while you're still left with bathwater. Cheaters will still cheat, and just use other things to annoy you with.

A good portion of TDM players only enjoy TDM/Double Gun, if the vast majority of cheaters are part of this category, isn't it likely that by removing this combat style they will simply leave the game?

You're again making baseless claims about the "vast majorities."

What do people gain from cheating in a TDM, that they probably took forever to "spike" (queue into same server) with most likely just their friends/peers?

There's no commendations, no achievements, no loot, no gold, no rep. It's a TDM lol.

Removing double gunning wouldn't drive cheaters in HG away either. It would drive cheaters to use the next best thing with which they can leverage their cheats.

Whatever weapon combo gives the next best TTK, and allows them to use their aimbot: that's what you'll be complaining about after double gunning is gone.

And about toxicity, are you going to deny that there is more toxicity among a segment that is practically entirely focused on PVP than in PVE? Is that serious?

No, as a matter of fact, my literal words were:

In any PvP environment, in any game, you're going to find players who can't behave sportsmanlike.
You bring in more PvP, you're going to inevitably bring in more of those losers, along with all the regular folks who just PvP, say ggs, work on getting better, make friends.

So, while you are likely to find more toxicity in a PvP environment, due to people's inability to be sportsmanlike, still:

Normal human interaction isn't exclusive to people who use a sword and prefer PvE.

@ghutar even with that bare minimum feature set I would be happy. Friendly fire toggle would be great

My idea:

Have Hourglass dives to either inactive Skull Forts, or inactive Sea Forts for TDM battles - each of these structures has varying degrees of verticality, allowing for awesome TDM fights.

@theblackbellamy said in TDM as a feature:

@fysics3037 said:

...I do agree that most tdmers are currently toxic/more likely to cheat.

Based on what though?

People make all kinds of claims about how common cheating is and who does it (or doesn't do it). We don't have that data.

Literally just join a tdm discord or look at tdm clips. Most everyone is using FoV hacks. And a ton of them have big egos that make them toxic. I know like 8 nice tdmers, and even then 3 of them are cheating 💀 It's really not a large stretch.

@valor-omega the skeleton camps would be better imo. It has everything Rare could want; good layout, mermaid statue, plenty of barrels, out of the way, good lore. Just theme it as Ramsey fighting back against the rituals.

@fysics3037 said:

Literally just join a tdm discord or look at tdm clips. Most everyone is using FoV hacks. And a ton of them have big egos that make them toxic. I know like 8 nice tdmers, and even then 3 of them are cheating 💀 It's really not a large stretch.

Sad.

I'm in only one "SoT discord" server anymore and I'm probably not joining any new ones lol. I used to be in several Arena discords when it was around, and cheating wasn't as common as it seems to be in SoT nowadays.

I'd look for other people to TDM with and make your own community. It's literally just spiking a server, finding a fort, and aim training on each other lol.

There's no comp TDM league afaik. Friend of mine tried it in NAL, but it fell through after Arena's shutdown was announced. Point is, I don't understand the motivation to cheat in an Adventure TDM. I feel like there would be more cheating in HG, as there's more to gain, more to prove.

@theblackbellamy it's really just ego in most cases. I already set up my own community, I just don't really care about FoV hacks. I also wouldn't say cheating is super common across the game, but FoV/cosmetic packs is just super common in the TDM space. I don't think adding tdm features would make more of the game cheat tho, that was kinda my whole point on this post.

@lleorb said:

• A considerable portion of players who enjoy TDM dislike other aspects of the game, and would stop playing if Double Gun were removed.

Believe it or not, there are players who still play this game despite how boring it is or how poorly it functions. Like former comp NAL players that still play.

Buddy of mine is solo-grinding the new meg commendations. He is a former comp battlefield player and has the best aim I know. He double guns for fun, but also just loves this game.

I enjoy TDM. I also enjoy naval. I just hate the current state HG is in, and so I am playing other things until Rare gives HG the attention it needs.

I'm not saying there aren't players who only play this game specifically so they can double gun. But I will say that, out of the total population of double gunners, they probably make up a small (albeit perhaps loud and whiny) percentage. At least smaller than you make it out to be.

• The vast majority of cheaters in SOT use double gun...

As I've said multiple times now: 1) TTK, and 2) aimbot.

Take away double gunning, and these players will just use the weapons that give the next best TTK. If sword is mandatory, they'll use sword and sniper. If knives are allowed in place of sword, they'll use knives and sniper to leverage their aimbot and kill you at distance. If you nerf the sniper they'll use the next best thing.

Cheaters cheat for a variety of reasons. The closeted ones usually have something to lose. The obvious ones don't. You've made it apparent this whole time that you're only concerned with one particular segment of cheaters.

• If most Cheaters are in that category and enjoy the game just for that aspect, removing it would decrease their presence and consequently the use of cheats.

Again, I'm sure some cheaters only cheat in this game, just so they can double gun 🙄.

More likely than not, the ones that cheat just to ruin people's day, or continue using them from in a closet, will continue cheating until the anti-cheat finally detects them.

About toxicity
Once again, if toxicity is much more present among PVP, it is quite obvious that it is also more concentrated in players who only consume PVP...

If it wasn't clear when I agreed with this, the last time you tried to make it look like I disagreed with this, yes, Captain Obvious.

In PvP, in any games or competitive environment, you're going to have people who don't take losses well, and people who can't take their wins without putting the losers down. This can be as benign as "gg ez," and it can be as problematic as threats and harassment.

When behavior becomes problematic, I'm all for removing those individuals from the environment. But I don't think that everyone who enjoys double gunning should be punished (by having their favorite loadout taken away) for offenses they haven't commit.

---

Since you gave me a nice summary...

My arguments are essentially:
1] whatever portion of cheaters you hope to deter by removing double gunning, is more blindly optimistic than pragmatic, because cheaters would still cheat with other weapons.
2] Whatever amount of toxicity you hope to eliminate by removing double gunning, is also unrealistic, because as long as the game has PvP, you're going to have sore losers and arrogant winners.
3] Yes, a PvP feature would bring in more PvPers, and thus, more sore losers and arrogant winners. But the majority of people who PvP in games are just normal people who keep to themselves, or say "ggs" and move on to the next match.

@lleorb said:

Again, I'm sure some cheaters only cheat in this game, just so they can double gun 🙄... More likely than not, the ones that cheat just to ruin people's day, or continue using them from in a closet, will continue cheating until the anti-cheat finally detects them.

What is your basis for this information? I said where I got the information to support what I am saying, which is not just the result of what I can see in encounters with cheaters but a chain of things that lead to the conclusion mentioned, including talking to these people.

I see people saying they will stop playing or the game will die if there is no DG(social medias), whether they are cheaters or not, I see posts on these forums that say the same thing, I see the noise and the dishonest means they use to preserve their PVP style at all costs(as I mentioned internally), I talk to these people

Your anecdotes vs mine 🤷‍♂️. I know plenty of cracked double gunning OGs who still play this game for reasons that escape me. And they probably would continue if double gunning was removed, they would just lose their favorite play style.

Something they're used to by now, after losing Arena. Losing quick swapping lol.

You see. You hear. You cherry pick, my friend.

What is my basis for claiming that the portion of cheaters who solely play SoT to double gun is probably not the majority of cheaters?

The existence of PvE cheats that don't market to double gunners. The existence of closet cheaters. I'm granting you that some portion of cheaters probably pay for cheats just to aimbot with two guns lol. But the burden of proof is on you, if you're claiming that they're the majority.

I'm just saying "doubt it" because of the lack of evidence for me to believe so.

In PvP, in any games or competitive environment, you're going to have people who don't take losses well, and people who can't take their wins without putting the losers down. This can be as benign as "gg ez," and it can be as problematic as threats and harassment.

You agreed that this is more present in PVP, but you didn't agree that it is more present in PVP double gun/TDM...

🤦‍♂️

By default, because TDMing is a form of PvP, if you bring in a TDM feature, you will bring in more people who are sore losers or arrogant/toxic winners.

I don't know how much more of an admission you need from me.

The context you are dancing around is that these people do not make up a majority of the people you will bring in. Most PvPers just say ggs and work on improving their own skill.

This is why I don't see a harm in giving players their own space to TDM.

1. I disagree, with the sources of information I cited it still seems quite evident to me that there has been a considerable decrease in cheaters due to the probable loss of interest of these people in the game.

So wait, we still have double gunning, and yet there has been a considerable loss of cheaters. And you think the reason is... because they lost interest? But I thought they only cheat just to double gun? So if they can still double gun, why have they lost interest?

(Everyone else: this is what cognitive dissonance looks like.)

Lleorb, is it possible that there has been a drop in cheaters for other reasons, like Rare finally improving the game's security? Or maybe the lack of attention to security and server health, driving activity and HG down, resulting in less motivation for cheaters to play, as they have fewer people to annoy?

No, surely, it has to do with whatever you're arguing, based on your conversations, Twitter feed, and forum comment stalking lol.

...I still believe that removing an element that makes PVP SoT extremely competitive would alleviate some of the tension in encounters or even in the hourglass.

I think reworking HG would alleviate most of the tension in HG encounters. And I think a more robust anti-cheat/security/reporting system would take care of the rest. Then people can use whatever weapons they want, without being scrutinized.

I've talked at length about how Rare can improve the mode in other threads, so I won't beat that dead horse here.

3. I have to repeat this every time, but I never said that most TDMs are cheaters or toxic, much less PVP in general... I say that most cheaters are ...double gunners.

And I'll repeat this every time you repeat that:

Cheaters use double gun because of: 1] TTK, 2]aimbot

Take away double gun, they'll use the next best set up for TTK, and to maximize the utility of their cheats.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the things I've stated here are not the only or the main reason to advocate for DG's removal, I've covered that in another thread...

Limiting people's playstyles will just make the game boring.

If friends want to spike a server like all these unchecked alliances do, meet at a fort, and do nothing but aim train on each other with two guns, I say let them. They hurt no one. They are an opportunity for other people to find and engage with.

No cheats. No toxicity. Just a fun TDM.

I don't really care what your reasons are, and I'm exhausted from this conversation alone. If you want to get rid of double gunning, you're going to take away their fun, as well as the fun of every other PvPer, and PvPvEer, and PvEer who enjoys using two guns, even if from time-to-time, or per situation.

If you want to get rid of toxicity, I'm with you, let's address toxicity. If you want to get rid of cheaters, I'm with you, let's address cheaters.

If you want to get rid of double gunning, we can agree to disagree, and you should probably just get good 😐.

There are plenty of sword lords who know how to deal with double gunners. If you're here like I'm here, you've seen the "nerf sword" posts from double gunners who don't know to keep distance lol. I'd look up some old fuzzybond videos on block dodging or something. Good luck. 🍻

I agree with this. Some form of hourglass but for island-based PvP. Grinding naval combat is such a slog, and I find myself only doing a few games before getting bored, turning in, and doing something else. To at least have the option to engage in the other side of PvP would be great. Not to mention it helps newer players get acquainted with land-based PvP. It would make the average engagement a lot more challenging and fun for those of us that already know what we're doing.

@lleorb said:

English is not my primary language so I may not understand some things or write something wrong as well, maybe I treated some of your arguments wrongly because of that, I apologize..

For it not being your primary language, you write very well. Certainly better than I can in any other language.

But bad logic is bad logic regardless of what tongue you speak it in.

You are making a claim about a majority of cheaters. And to support this claim, you are cherry picking conversations, tweets, and forum comments.

Knowing nothing else about you, I can only hope that in any other context, that you would find this to be insufficient to support claims about a majority of anything else.

And let's say what you're proposing turns out to be true, and in response Rare makes the sword mandatory. What happens when cheaters find a way to bypass the restrictions? Just as they did with quick-swapping? Then, who would the changes hurt? The cheaters, or the rest of the playerbase that isn't cheating, but now has fewer options?

...the main reason for removing the double gun in my view is that it doesn't fit Sot's casual proposal... moving away from a hardcore combat about who has better reflexes or muscle memory.

I mean reflexes and muscle memory are going to help you with any weapon. They help in naval. People shouldn't be punished just for developing skills in areas in which you haven't, or can't.

Plus, with the removal of quick swapping for double guns, there's nothing "hardcore" about it anymore. They even left quick swapping in for sword users lol (unless this changed since). But using two guns is something people did even without quick swapping, and even outside of PvP. If we're going to make references to forum comments, I'm sure you've seen people say they use flintlock + EoR to shoot at megs or krakens, for sake of efficiency. Removing double guns wouldn't just inconvenience the segment of cheaters you're hung up on. It would limit the options for innocent players too.

The difference between us is, you see this as a sacrifice worth making. As I said, I'm happy agreeing to disagree.

Um why the hell is this thing 67 posts?

@h0b0jo0e some people no like double gunners ig

@fysics3037 Lol