Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games

  • GrumpyW01f
    Legend
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    Why do I say this? Because tried-and-tested solutions from other games should have some overlap in Sea of Thieves, even if they are completely different genres. Sea of Thieves’ self-reliance is an amazing asset; they have made a player experience that I haven’t found anywhere and love to death. But there are always times to learn lessons where others have failed or succeeded.

    My main gripe is Faction Battles.
    Streaks were a bad idea: they force you to gamble with your potential allegiance. Risk/Reward is only good when not taking the risk actually gives a reasonable reward. Selling the hourglass after 1 or 2 wins is so much less allegiance. It burns to lose at a streak of 3, losing you ~2 levels and forcing you to restart. This discourages playing with players who aren't good at PvP. If you never can get a streak, there's not much allegiance to be earned, so why play with someone that can't get you to champion?

    The whole system is broken. Hourglass should be seen as 'the ranked mode' of Sea of Thieves. And as such, Rare should have given Hourglass an actual ranked system. If the matchmaking system is working perfectly, you should lose 50% of the matches that you play. Why, then, is the main way to earn allegiance tied to streaks? If the matchmaking works perfectly, you shouldn't be getting streaks!
    Hourglass should be separated into ranks. At higher ranks, you get more allegiance for winning. They would need a variation of the ledger system to track it all.
    A real ranked system would:
    Remove the frustration from losing all your potential allegiance at high streak losses.
    Do a better job at separating those less good at PvP and make them less apprehensive about competing in hourglass. (think about it - in a ranked game, you're less apprehensive about fighting in Bronze ranked matches than you would be about competing in a system like SoT: "There are no solid ranks, we'll just try to place you with someone close to your skill level", it's like telling a Bronze player that there's a chance they get matched with Master ranked players)
    Bring players with the curses back time and time again to compete for ledger rewards or who among their friends/the world is ranked highest.

    Do I think Rare will ever make changes like these? No. They like to be different from everyone else, which is really great, until the point where they ignore lessons that other companies have learned in the past. What's the most important lesson that competitive games have learned?
    If you want players to care about competition, you show them their rank!
    Do you think Street Fighter 6 would have so many players if there was no ranked system? It's a hard thought for me to parse, because I have trouble even thinking about a competitive game without a ranked system. Even a company like Nintendo, which have never made the competitive side of their games the main focus (much like Rare), have real ranking systems in games such as Smash Bros (GSP), Splatoon (C-X rank), and Pokemon (rank tiers). They know that physical ranks increase engagement.

    Why not add rankings to Faction Battles? It's rewarding to see your gold go up, it's rewarding to see levels go up, it's rewarding to see emissary value go up... let's add a number that makes players proud. Proud that they are improving in combat.

    I was always really supportive of hourglass battles. But now I realize that I was just blinded by the hype of "Ermagerd, PvP update with Skeleton/Ghost Curses that are hard to get!!!" That feeling has taken a loooooong time to wear off, because now I'm happy with all I have unlocked, and I just want to have fun playing the mode/helping others get their curse/starting my steady grind to level 1000.
    I'm not really sure if hourglass can be fixed at this point: low and mid-level players have given up on the mode, most high-level players have gotten their curses and left, and the masters of combat grief the new-joiners and fight each other over rewards after the curses. But maybe, there is hope…

    TL;DR I want a ledger for Hourglass and wanting allegiance to be tied with who you beat rather than how many you beat in a row.

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  • BurnBacon
    Vanguard
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    Player upset they have to:

    • fight against better players or bad players
    • slow ranking/leveling up

    Too long to read but that was the short version. And so they want change because “other games” do it better? Idk…I fail to see comparing games to one another as healthily and good form

  • GrumpyW01f
    Legend
    Insider

    @salty-sea-jr @BurnBacon

    I've done well with what little time I've spent... my gripes come from lack of general participation, not inability to get levels.

  • Salty Sea Jr
    Castaway

    @grumpyw01f so what’s exactly is your issue? At this level you should know what’s up. There comes a time when you just gotta get better. It’s not Rares fault. 0.08% of people have those curses I believe. You’re doing fine.

  • GrumpyW01f
    Legend
    Insider

    @salty-sea-jr
    My problem is that hourglass has lost so many players, players that it shouldn't have lost.

    Among the industry, a ranked system is just better than a streak system.

    This has nothing to do with my personal achievements, I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    "Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games"

    I noticed this from day one.

    For example, we are getting guilds just now after 5 years, when in other games guilds are the social center of the game.

    Another example, the lack of a forced end in hourglass, most other games have some kind of an end condition and don't force you to choose between spending hours or giving up.

    Another example is the IPG, while the "ugly factor" is a valid design choice, the gross unfriendliness of the tool is not due to the design but due to shortcuts. Especially considering cosmetics are the central reward. You can't even choose simple things like gender.

    The base idea that you get in a PvP Queue so that you can fight in open world is just bizarre by any other standard.

    But to be fair that is the way games are, developers come up with something really cool, then turn right around and undermine it with silly ideas. I'm reminded of World of Warships, could have been great but so many islands on the map that they cultivated a "Culture of Cowardice" in PvP.

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    @grumpyw01f said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @salty-sea-jr @BurnBacon

    I've done well with what little time I've spent... my gripes come from lack of general participation, not inability to get levels.

    I notice none of the people telling you to "git gud" have posted a pic of theirs 🤣

  • GrumpyW01f
    Legend
    Insider

    @tesiccl
    I'm not talking about a separate mode, I'm not talking about Sea of Thieves being an FPS game, I'm saying that the way that hourglass is set up, doesn't lend to player retention.

    What Rare have done for Hourglass is actually more preferred from a casual side of PvP compared to the more hardcore style in other games. It’s a great idea considering they’ve learned the lesson from Arena and are focusing player battles to feel more casual.

    I agree that they crafted something much better than Arena, and I personally like that you can start a game from a regular server, and that they occur in a regular server. I don't think I would use the word "casual" to describe the experience, though...

    What's wrong with wanting a ledger for Hourglass and wanting xp to be tied with who you beat rather than how many you beat in a row?

    I find it funny that I didn't reference a single FPS in the post yet I still get thrown in with people who think this game should be an FPS... ranking systems work regardless of genre (Smash Bros. - Fighting Game, Splatoon - Team Strategy 3PS, Pokemon - Turn-Based Strategy)

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    @grumpyw01f My odds of winning are so low I always sell my HG after a win...

  • D3ADST1CK
    Vanguard
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    Founder

    Putting heavy emphasis on streaks for xp was the worst thing they could do for a mode that is supposed to match you with relatively same skilled opponents.

    Players that are matched with others way beyond their skill will not get streaks and progress very slowly. Players that get evenly matched aren't going to get very long streaks either, since they should only be winning roughly 50% of matches if the matchmaking is working. This means that the great players are going to advance the fastest (which makes sense) but the other two groups are probably going to get frustrated.

    That leads to things like loss farming or running to try to annoy the other players enough to force a quit, which harms the mode.

    It's a death spiral that I'm not sure can be fixed at this point given the extremely slow response time Rare has with dealing with gameplay issues and their history of just not adjusting dead features after they release.

  • Salty Sea Jr
    Castaway

    @foambreaker said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @grumpyw01f My odds of winning are so low I always sell my HG after a win...

    No one here doubts that.

  • IX Indi XI
    Seafarer

    @tesiccl said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    Rare are cleverly adapting the mistakes of others and applying it to their own game and the vision they have for it. If you can’t see that, you’re blind as well as a wee silly.

    This sounds sarcastic, Updates that should of been thought off from the get go when they introduced the game as a sandbox community driven game, yet 5 years later are they now just adding community ''guilds'', or Captaincy that was a no brainer that players asked for years prior.

    I get it, they were on a severe time crunch to get the game out ASAP from a Microsoft Contract? (I think)

    Or you know, an ACTUAL Anti-Cheat that yet again took them 5 years and the ONLY reason was because they couldn't hide how rampant it is to the public no longer.

    Those players stuck in what you say a ''FPS'' Mindset where the ones that sounded the alarm of ESP/FOV YEARS AGO, yet were brushed under the rug as being delusional, Yeh I saw it all in throughout the years including these forums, it only took Cheater Developers to capitalize on HG update to push their cheats even harder and made them public, not private anymore. (Not like flying kegs or wallhacks where a thing beforehand, nah we must be delusional).
    Wonder how well the anti-cheat will deal with when it drops. That would be interesting sight to see. Does it also tackle alt accounts for cheaters?

    HourGlass:
    It's hard to even believe they had an actual MMR system from the get go. Maybe they do, but the playerbase playing this mode is so small it appears it doesn't even exist.

    There's just no shot how competitive Galleon crews are still being put against open crew triple sailing swabbies on repeat that sink in 30 seconds when they have like 5k total levels in HG levels.
    The playerbase is not big enough for an actual matchmaking to be as efficient, it just isn't because I was part of the community for around 2 years before hanging my gloves up and moving on to better games and devs that seem to listen to the playerbase that put the most dedication towards their game.
    I don't see that with SoT as regularly...

    PvP Fnactics are lucky that HourGlass was a developers dream to be implemented for a long time, because if it wasn't + The removal of Arena, they would be long gone outside of Server hopping for Reapers which was becoming a dreadful experience.
    As someone that loved PvE but quickly Loved PvP onwards, no worse time was when Arena Closed and the time period before HG dropped.

    RARE messed up on the other half of the community there for months, a majority left since HG just doesn't fill that itch either of glorious 5 Ship Battles.
    But the problem that HG had also didn't help.

    All in all, I won't say RARE as a whole, I will say the devs that made Sea of Thieves are an example not to strive for as a game developer going into the industry, because the amount of hypocrisy and hiding that they do to one part of the community who put so much time into the game as the other half is shameful.
    Also, they brought a community member who has an OF page to do a Q&A recently during community day, in a kids game? SHAMEFUL!
    Good game artists for sure, just not a fan of their creative director of the games path, they seem to not be on the same page at times.

    Guilds, yeah good idea 5 years ago, what good when majority of players are solo, or have a friend group but are inconsistent with playing the game, I don't see this content being a big hit outside of existing community's of 10+ active players taking advantage of it.

    It's a cute/unique game, the decisions however, are very questionable and frustrating to a lot of players in the community that have put those hours in, and rightfully so. It only comes from a place of passion, and the Devs on this game are no different then the other recent screw ups that of recent Gaming developers doing questionable things to their fanbase.

    Just my take.

  • Salty Sea Jr
    Castaway

    @foambreaker

    I notice none of the people telling you to "git gud" have posted a pic of theirs 🤣

    Sent you my 391 servants on Xbox wanna see my other one? 😎

  • Look Behind You
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    Moderator
    Founder
    Deckhand

    Please avoid engaging in personal arguments and derailing the topic of the thread. It is fine to debate the content of the post, and the viewpoints therein, but disrespecting any of your fellow pirates personally is against the pirate code, and our forum rules.

    Several posts have been removed accordingly.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @tesiccl said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    Personally, I think what scared a lot of people off Hourglass was the cheater infestation. It was thriving at the beginning, there was a healthy player amount and matches felt balanced. Some hiccups here and there but solvable. Then came the wave and it just got so bad for casual players who wanted to enjoy some casual PvP. I can only imagine once Rare have confirmed things are much better cheater wise, we’ll see an influx of players again, it’s only natural.

    Only a pocket of social participants for the most part imo.

    Yeah it had some effect with some content creators getting people fired up mixed with people running into obvious cheating in some areas/stamps

    HG's main struggle is that it's not what most players are here for.

    That's not just pvers or pve/pvpers it's also a lot of pvpers that just prefer random adventure scenarios for pvp. This is a HUGE part of the participation in SoT.

    It's not as much HG failing imo, much more that many many people are here for entirely different reasons than the design of HG.

  • GrumpyW01f
    Legend
    Insider

    @tesiccl said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @grumpyw01f

    I find it funny that I didn't reference a single FPS in the post yet I still get thrown in with people who think this game should be an FPS

    I was in no way addressing you in that part of my original reply rest assured.

    Personally, I think what scared a lot of people off Hourglass was the cheater infestation. It was thriving at the beginning, there was a healthy player amount and matches felt balanced. Some hiccups here and there but solvable. Then came the wave and it just got so bad for casual players who wanted to enjoy some casual PvP. I can only imagine once Rare have confirmed things are much better cheater wise, we’ll see an influx of players again, it’s only natural.

    My bad, and I agree, having less cheaters + the huge meta shake-up should increase PvP interest for a little while at least. Add on top of that Season 9's length has lowered player retention, we will see those who got tired of the game come back (me included, I've not played much these last few months)

  • Hurtwillcam10
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @tesiccl i agree but in my pvp point of view it is quite annoying that they seem to focus on the pve side of the game

  • CoffeeLight5545
    Legend
    Insider

    @tesiccl said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @grumpyw01f

    I find it funny that I didn't reference a single FPS in the post yet I still get thrown in with people who think this game should be an FPS

    I was in no way addressing you in that part of my original reply rest assured.

    Personally, I think what scared a lot of people off Hourglass was the cheater infestation. It was thriving at the beginning, there was a healthy player amount and matches felt balanced. Some hiccups here and there but solvable. Then came the wave and it just got so bad for casual players who wanted to enjoy some casual PvP. I can only imagine once Rare have confirmed things are much better cheater wise, we’ll see an influx of players again, it’s only natural.

    Unfortunately we won’t see the surge of players until the hourglass mode is revamped!

    When the Arena peaked and began to die Rare added new commendations and cosmetic. I believe that an hourglass revamp will happen soon. Unfortunately there are no cosmetics for LV 5 to LV 100 and all the rewards stop at LV 200. There is little reason to push the hourglass factions to LV 1000.

    I made a post months ago asking the community if they would continue past LV 100 in their chosen faction. About half claimed they would quit after they got the base curse. I agree that cheating has driven the players away but without something to work for, why continue playing?

  • a10dr4651
    Commander
    Insider

    My opinion only and I know those who are more competitive may disagree, I thought hourglass was better when it first released and you could gain allegiance from fighting random ships that were also voted in. The more restricted and separate hourglass became from the wider random adventure, the worse it became. Hourglass needs opening up to be accessible, random and rewarding even if you lose. I see it going the way of arena if things remain as they are.

  • Soulstinger2k20
    Master
    Insider

    I have thought from the beggining that basing the allegiance system SO heavily on not only winning but winning repeatedly and consecutivly in a game that just doesnt feel optimized for dedicated ranked competative play, and thematically asks you to focus on the joruney, not the destination.

    As others have said, having wins be worth soooo much more than losses, losses not scaling with your streak, streaks themselves, it all tends to narrow ones vision and attitude to only sail with the best crew you can, to not suffer mistakes or people not taking it seriously, and to be as vicious (gameplay wise, not verbally) as possible in matches. It tends to bring out every dirty trick, any advantage you can scrape together, suffer no fools and take pity on no one.

    Especially when you think of wether a match lasts 2 minutes or an hour, the losing team still gets barely anything in additon to losing their streak and supplies, makes a hard fought loss hit even harder and feel even worse than a quick defeat.

    Im not saying thats how everyone acts, or tries to be, but the overall pressure on wins vs losses coupled with the length of the grind for the curses and commendation cosmetics, has a tendency to eventually squeeze all the fun out of the mode, and turns it into a more mean spirited and cut throat affair than it perhaps could have been with a different design philosophy.

    *edit I will admit to letting this get to me at times too, adrenaline and this overall effect has brought the worst out in me frlm time to time in a way that PvE never has

    And as for posting allegiance levels as some sort of indicator on wether your opinion should hold any weight; Im not at home to screenshot but Im around 505 servants, about 60 sinks away from starfish skull as last earnable cosmetic before gold bones and being done with HG

  • Soulstinger2k20
    Master
    Insider

    @tesiccl everyone keeps touting that line, "its not supposed to be quick or easy" but heres the thing; most people are going to and have indeed already see(n) it that way.

    They/we rushed the mode, got what curse they wanted, and quit. Becuase after a while this effect settles in and it is NOT fun anymore.

    Most peoples outlook was they will participate only til they have the things they wanted and stop, because they put the most highly requested rewards behind a conpetative pvp system not everyone wants to play in, and made it ultra win focused on top of that.

    If Rare really wants this to be a slower pace thing they should have had better awards from 0 to 100, a better reward curve, better spacing.

    From 0 to 100 there is nothing; people push and push and tunnel-vision for the base curse

    From 100 to 200 the reward curve feels way more relaxed.

    From 200 to 1000 it goes back to being totally cut throat because you dont want spend EVEN LONGER in the high-stress no-reward doldrums by losing more than you absolutely need to.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @tesiccl said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @soulstinger2k20 rewards will get added over time, again, it’s not a rush. It’ll be around for a very long time and there’s enough time to get the stuff, enjoy the fight, and have fun along the way. Isn’t that the most important part?

    Nope.

    I've said it before, this is the type of comments one expects to see when the rewards are more desirable than the means to get them. People like the rewards more than they like the game mode, so they ask for the journey to change because all they want is the destination.

    If Rare wants us to enjoy the journey more than the destination, then maybe they should learn from other successful IPs out there and make the journey more psychologically rewarding to its pirate base.

  • Dragotech123
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    As I said in other threads before, I gave up on the Hourglass because of how I am only delaying my losses by trying to fight. My performance and effort does not matter even a tiny bit because I will get the same small fragment of allegiance if I get sunk. In other words, loss farmers advanced faster than me who actually tried to fight and improve and get some wins but failed to get them.

    And lets see, if my goal was the curse, which is at level 100, it feels so distant considering that losses barely give you anything, and by trying to fight and still sink my losses are getting delayed.
    I didn't enjoy the journey, not at all, I just wanted to get to the goal and be done with that, but I gave up, I don't have any incentives to even try. So, until I get the curses, what can I get? Just some titles and figureheads that are similar from one and another, and 10 levels between titles and 20 between figureheads.

    "If it takes a year it takes a year" Yeah, no thanks. My interest for the hourglass was gone before that. I got burnt out and sick of it before I could manage to get wins, I gave up before I made some meaningful progress. I got discouraged every single time I got a loss because in the end it didn't matter how much I improved or how much I managed to maintain my ship afloat before sinking, a loss farmer was advancing faster than me.

    The state of the Hourglass is well deserved, it really needs some changes to motivate people to actually try to fight, and keep trying despite losing.

    And yes, like other stated, not only hourglass is the only thing that the developers should look into. The infinite pirate generator is horrible. Why can't we have a normal character creator? Why can't we at least filter a few options?

    Yes, a lot of things in this game are unique, but unique does not always mean better.

  • Soulstinger2k20
    Master
    Insider

    @lordqulex very well said.

    Dont get me wrong; I love SoT, I like HG to a point, I love the idea of Skellies vs Ghosts, Ramsies vs Flameheart... but just diving for a year now has gotten really old, win or lose. (For me)

    It sucks to lose, as the reward is so paltry it feels like youve wasted all your time, amd its not much better to win (post level 200) as youre staring down literally 800 levels of nothing til the big prize.

    (Or do rewards stop at 300? I just passed 500 and I dont remember exactly when they stop)

  • FaceYourDemon
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    A streamer said something that i agree with, that HG battles fights against your will.
    Whenever you lost or won diving in becomes a bit of a chore.
    Personally I dont have the perfect formula at hand but why O why is HG so grindy?
    The community knows I never complain about grind in general but here its just nasty...
    Asking to nerf it now just wont be fair to those who busted their souls and sank so many hours.

  • SweetSandMan
    Legend
    Insider

    The hourglass ranking/leveling system system is poorly done and is the reason that we even have loss farmers to begin with.

    They say it's a modified ELO system for matchmaking...but how much does that impact the rep from winning/losing?

    IMO, one of the best examples of how a ranking/leveling system should be implemented comes from Mario Kart 8.

    At the beginning of a match, it's blatantly obvious the level of player(s) you're up against. After a race is complete, the rewards for winning or losing are made crystal clear and it is highly related to the level of opponent you are up against.

    There's no streaking bonus...because in a system designed around matchmaking (even if it's poorly done), you shouldn't be streaking.

    Look at players like DB for example...he consistently goes on 20+ win streaks...then think about the players he's going up against...they're leveling at a snail's pace even though they're up against one of the best in the world with one of the highest win% there is.

    _
    Spending 30+ minutes in a highly defense oriented battle only to get pittance for your loss and then follow that up with getting decimated by the likes of someone that is way out of your league...all to get maybe 1/8th of a level worth of progression.

    It's no wonder there's loss farmers.

    I used to think loss farmers were the problem...after hundreds and hundreds of battles and an 80%+ win%, I completely understand why they do what they do.

    The time investment to actually try is not worth it with how poorly the system is designed.

  • Europa4033
    Commander
    Insider

    @grumpyw01f said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @salty-sea-jr
    My problem is that hourglass has lost so many players, players that it shouldn't have lost.

    Among the industry, a ranked system is just better than a streak system.

    This has nothing to do with my personal achievements, I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

    Just speaking for myself here, they lost me when season 8 came, ringing the dinner bell for cheaters. We couldn't get streaks without meeting a cheater, making hourglass pointless for us, and a feature of the game we just don't touch.

  • Jdge439
    Captain
    Insider

    @tesiccl they didnt learn anything at all from arena, Im playing blazing sails now and a match of 20 players starts in about 4 minutes every time... Sea of thieves couldnt get a match to start to save their lives.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @tesiccl said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @lordqulex let’s face it, those who want the curses without the grind will never be happy with Rare until they add it to a twitch drop (even then they’ll complain). If you’re never going to enjoy it, then there’s not much Rare can do about that, rewards or otherwise.

    But it's all psychological. Many games have been lambasted lately because their loot boxes are psychologically addictive. There are tried and true (non-blatantly predatory) methods to get players to enjoy hourglass that Rare has had ample opportunity and time to implement.

    A friend of mine with a dual degree in User Experience and User Interface Design who works as a UX Researcher in Silicon Valley helps me design board games. Some of the best advice I ever got from her was that when designing a game, you want to reward the players for playing as intended as opposed to punishing them for playing "wrong." The streak system and the pittance of allegiance earned for losing no matter how long the battle lasted or how well your performed makes it emotionally feel like hourglass is punishing you for losing. That is what I believe to be one of the biggest problems with hourglass: losing feels like a punishment.

    There have been a plethora of idea on this forum about how to improve the experience that I whole-heartedly agree with—daily/weekly/monthly deeds that reward hourglass activities like first win or multiple wins or matches played, Bones Rush hour to parallel Gold Rush hours daily, rewarding PVP activities such as cannonball hits, masts dropped, pirates sent to the ferry, holes repaired and food eaten by opposing crew, visiting the ferry, keeping ship afloat, set enemy ship on fire, bailing water, each up to 5 times per match to encourage good faith PVP participation while preventing farming off of low skill pirates... the list of good idea goes on.

    The truth is that the journey is a miserable slog that most of the pirate base just won't enjoy and that's why we feel like participation in hourglass is low. And the pseudo-ELO system that Rare uses relies on large participation numbers so lop-sided pairings are reduced. Like I said, Rare has had ample time and opportunity to improve the user experience of hourglass, and they simply haven't. That's why I think it won't ever be improved; it's probably already a sunk cost in their minds. That being said, I'm sure Monkey Island took a lot of development work. If we don't see improvements in hourglass in seasons 11 or 12, they probably won't ever come.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @tesiccl said in Rare refuses to learn lessons from other games:

    @lordqulex

    A friend of mine with a dual degree in User Experience and User Interface Design who works as a UX Researcher in Silicon Valley helps me design board games. Some of the best advice I ever got from her was that when designing a game, you want to reward the players for playing as intended as opposed to punishing them for playing "wrong."

    As much as your friend may be experienced helping you design board games. I’d rather take the experience of an entire game studio that’s been in the business for 35+ years. Heck, think as well, just because what you want isn’t in the game now, it doesn’t mean it won’t be. People are so needy and impatient these days. This is also why I say it’s not a rush to finish it, because Rare will add to/change Hourglass over time to attract new people in. Patience.

    35+ years of experience doesn't equate to infallibility. The community is crying out daily for hourglass to be improved. The community wants to like hourglass but it is currently just unlikable for too many pirates. I understand digital delivery timelines and feature pipelines, I'm just saying that they have until season 12 in my opinion until hourglass is dead as a doornail.

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