The Dark Adventurer Sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM because at helm they BLATANTLY PUNISH you for using anything else!

@sweetsandman While I wouldn't count 1) as "solution" I must say onto you:
Amen.

@grumpyw01f said in The Dark Adventurer Sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM because at helm they BLATANTLY PUNISH you for using anything else!:

@lormiun

The rock-scenario is just one example.

What is there to sailing besides avoiding rocks, staying on course, and stopping before hitting your destination?

Do I really need to answer this?! It shocks me that you ask that question XD

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And, in the present, the only ones who have access to the V-cut are usually above average anyway.

Dude, only ONE member of the crew needs access to them.

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ever heard of ... a Galleon?

Yeah... brigs turn their sails the same as galleons in the same winds...

If you want to go fast you turn EVERY sail on every ship into the wind if possible ... what are you trying to nail down with this XD?!

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But I can at least say that the DA sails do nothing to visibility most of the time.

Dude, I will be very honest here:
I did not actually double-check all your math but I REALLY don't need to.
Whatever it is you calculated there shatters at the harsh reality that the DA sails do A LOT for Visibility MOST OF THE TIME XD
It's like some scientist trying to explain to a construction-worker that him carrying a rock from A to B on an even plain is in fact, strictly scientifically, NOT WORK!
(an actual physical assessment btw.)
Or some mathematician trying to open a can by imagining "What if the can was open ...?".
That is BS though my man. There is nothing "merely perceived" or "only in the head".
We are not talking about some healing-stone methadone here but an OBVIOUS visual upgrade to a ship.
I have spent hours in the K-area behind the wheel of a galleon. Countless hours with regular sails AND now with DA-Sails and
you are actually trying to tell ME THAT "the DA sails do nothing to visibility most of the time"?!?!
You are not the underappreciated genius here, you are simply wrong.

Your arguments about PvP hold some truth because they actually find root in the "ideal" crew-behavior needed for them to make sense.
But translating this to a Status-Q to be always the case is 100% BS ...

Srsly, do you ACTUALLY believe this sentence: "the DA sails do nothing to visibility most of the time" ?!
Delusional man.
OPEN YOUR EYES!
LITERALLY :DDD

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As a bit a coder myself I would probably go for like a handful of "default-shapes" that can be given the paint-job of already existing sails.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that the sail model is different for each cut? That would cause more work than what I said in my last post. That would mean that every non-V-cut sail texture would need remade for the V-cut model to be added for that sail.

Well, you ARE not reading this right then.
The idea is simple: Have a bunch canvases with different shapes and simply apply the paint-patterns onto them.
This need not be overly difficult. Class to Object.
This is ofc just food for thought though ... I am not Rare and it is not my job to be a developer for SoT.
Fine-Tuning CAN be done afterwards by RARE.
I am merely an invested customer with feedback to give.

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It wouldn't have to work for EVERY sail. That would be ideal but not absolutely necessary. If they do it with the majority OR EVEN A HANDFULL of sails that would be good enough,

That's a bit more reasonable. But you kinda just moved the goalposts. It's not exactly a "Sail Editor" if you can't edit most sails. It sounds more like a handful of sails have cut variations. Which might be a cool addition.

I didn't move ****.
I am merely giving food for thought when it comes to the sail-editor. IDEALLY it would include all the sails for all the shapes but SHOULD that indeed be too much work, which it REALLY shouldn't be if done more or less right, then it is absolutely ok if they REASONABLY compromise. But it shouldn't stay at merely releasing more sails on the long run, I explained that in detail and will mention it again in this post.

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That is for Rare to decide, but it is NOT loads of work and it most certainly WOULD be worth it my man.

You changed the idea from all sails to a few sails per update and say that it wouldn't be loads of work? Duh.

I am merely giving food for thought -.-
As I have SAID before.
Just in case Rare actually only gives this task to a single apprentice-intern who only shows up 2h a day.
Are you actually trying to interpret this as me "changing the idea" XD
Sad man. Sad.

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It's just cosmetics.

You can say that about the whole game, it doesn't mean anything in particular.

Uh, no XD what kind of BS statement is that.
There is a HUGE difference between cosmetics and actual gameplay-relevant source-code.
The latter is incomparable in complexity and work-load to simply catering to more cosmetics.
If I for example asked them to alter the way the wind blows in SoT THAT would be a huge change!

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that is for RARE to decide.

It's also for Rare to decide, should we make a Sail Editor or just release more sails with cuts? The latter is less work.

Both would in fact be a smart approach.
First the sails FAST, then the editor LATER.
But ONLY the sails would come with the problem that the previous sails would fall into disuse, as mentioned many times.
In the end, everything is for Rare to decide unless Microsoft themselves come down from the heavens.
In this context, this is a 0-statment due to its obviousness.

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As long as there are MORE Sails with a cut the same or larger to satisfy at least MOST of tastes: I am 100% happy BUT ...
... if they were to do that WITHOUT such a sail Editor, especially if they are more accessible:
You know what would happen:
E-V-E-R-Y-B-O-D-Y will use those sails and those that are already there will go to waste.

Isn't this what you're saying already happens with anyone rich enough to buy the DA sails?
We don't necessarily need exact or close cuts, just cuts that fit the aesthetic of the sail in question. And I'm perfectly fine with that. If all the noobs hop onto a cheap blue sail with a U-cut, that's fine, but it doesn't automatically mean that the cuts are bad, just that there's an optics problem. One that, again, is contributed to by this thread.

Did you even READ my last post?
Your answer has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.
It doesn't matter AT ALL how the cut is shaped, only that it is there and reasonably large at that.
But IF such Cut-Sails were to be released without SOME FORM of Sail-Editor I explained what will happen.
NOONE with the option to use these sails will use classic sails anymore, just as mentioned.
WHY you ask?
I already answered that:
@lormiun said in The Dark Adventurer Sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM because at helm they BLATANTLY PUNISH you for using anything else!:

The only thing that is preventing a lot of people (a crapload of ppl use them) from using DA-Sails right now is their price but MUCH MORE SO the core of why I started this entire thing,
the fact that they don't go with 95% of cosmetics, which is really the root of all evil here.

Holy Hell ... this must be a new record.
But at lest this topic is worth it to me.

@inboundbomb

I highly respect you for actually taking the time to understand my points.
And I fully understand that some here simply don't want to actually face this DA-Sail issue because it is everything but encouraging for SoT.
That is not an opinion, sadly.
I however, could no longer justify myself avoiding this.

So let me reply this to yours:
Even the best tools in the hands of an apprentice will not magically make him a master.
But if he at least knows how to use them, they sure as hell can help A LOT :P

@grumpyw01f said in The Dark Adventurer Sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM because at helm they BLATANTLY PUNISH you for using anything else!:

@lormiun
We're talking about QoL for using DA sails, right? So what else is there for the DA sails to change when there's nothing to shoot at?

"Nothing to shoot at" aha, I don't know ... various Forts, Skeleton-ships ...
And that aside, the AVOIDING of unwanted PvP, potential Volcanos ... actual waterbombs, I could obviously go on ...
Pathetic man XD

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And, in the present, the only ones who have access to the V-cut are usually above average anyway.

Dude, only ONE member of the crew needs access to them.

Sure. Usually, if someone is an experienced, wealthy player, they play with experienced, wealthy players, but if you want to split hairs, you're right.

This isn't hairsplitting XD At least not for someone without a 24/7 standing crew :P
YOU are hairsplitting here with the claim that it would be the exception for experienced players to sail with a crew that is less so.
The vast majority of ppl you find in the Discords or the X-Box-App are not even PL and unless you are willing to wait relatively long you will HAVE to sail with them.
You obviously lack experience when it comes to sailing with such folk.

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You tried to deny my brig statements because a galleon exists. All I said was, that means nothing at all, you turn the sails the same for brigs and galleons. So, the real question is, what were you trying to nail down by saying galleons exist?

A Galleons are THE fastest directly with the wind therefor I will try to adjust my course to sail more with the wind than any other ship which results in the sails averaging more to the center than on other ships -.- (I regarded that as obvious)
B It is once again a VERY unrealistic assumption that you will ALWAYS turn the sails, especially with your average crew in non-combat mode, ESPCEIALLY on a Galleon.
The Center is OFTEN the most adaptable and most work-efficient position. Logic.
C Your argument centered exclusively on a Brig (for which it also is very weak as was shown), obviously this argument is even weaker for the Galleon so I logically brought it up :P

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Srsly, do you ACTUALLY believe this sentence: "the DA sails do nothing to visibility most of the time" ?!
Delusional man.

I do, because I just showed that there are more winds where the sails must be to the side than not. Which means that DA sails do nothing to visibility most of the time.
What's delusional is that you say you have all the proof and facts, but when I bring some in, you discount the conclusion and call me delusional.
Tell me then, what exactly is wrong with my sail angling comparison?

How about the FACT that your proof and facts literally DISPROVE themselves at first glance.
Can't see mine suffering from such an obvious flaw.
You actually use THIS as "proof" for YOUR statement !!??!!

"the DA sails do nothing to visibility most of the time"
Let me put it simple: I still see A LOT more with these sails adjusted like this than not :P
Your entire opinion at this point could be 100% hilarious if it wasn't so detrimental for SoT.
"A lot less extra visibility" - My ***
Maybe a LITTLE compared to fully centered sails but THIS my man, this is the same kind of science that would claim that cigarettes are good for you :P
Complete BS.
You are, like many others that argue against this I give you that, desperately searching for any kind of support to delude yourself into thinking like this just so YOU can justify using whatever you want before yourself instead of acknowledging the problem.

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The idea is simple: Have a bunch canvases with different shapes and simply apply the paint-patterns onto them.

That is literally what I said. Different shapes = models. Paint patterns = textures. you can't change the model and expect the texture to work. You need a new texture for every new model... this is 3D graphics 101.

AH yes, nice summarization, so THIS IS what would be "loads of work" and "not worth it" -.O ?
Yeah ... I mean ... I can understand that some would prefer them to work on PvE-Servers ;D

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Just to 'beat' my argument you said "Well... it doesn't have all sails. Maybe even just a handful." You moved the goalpost for the Sail Editor argument from all sails to not all sails.

Are you actually trying to interpret this as me "changing the idea" XD

Then show me where you said it didn't have to be all sails before you created the new idea for the sake of argument. Because, this whole time, I've been working on what you said in your original post:

All I mean is the ability to take the shape of an already owned sail and apply it
to all other sails already owned.

First of all I did NOT put this section in bold, so if you make use of the quoting mechanism, please don't bastardize it to misinterpret me as if I placed particular emphasis on that.
And that aside, you know FULLY well that THIS is hairsplitting in the FIRST Degree. I don't give a **** how EXACTLY Rare will implement a Sail-Editor JUST that they hopefully DO and that they do so in a WAY that will not have all their previous sails go to waste, weather they do it incrementally or at once is NOT IMPORTANT and FAR from the topic at hand here.
But yeah, you are grasping for any straw here aren't you XD

Yet as a final remark on this:
If I had to choose between them doing nothing and releasing ONLY more Sails with a cut equal in function to that of the DA-Sails then YES.
I would OBVIOUSLY GREATLY prefer the sails. All I did is provide a STERN warning that this ALONE comes with a disadvantage and I provided a solution for that.
A form of sail-editor, simple as.

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It's just cosmetics.

You can say that about the whole game, it doesn't mean anything in particular.

I just meant, if you belittle the cosmetics to say that it wouldn't be that hard, you're also belittling how much of the game is tied into them too... A lot of work already goes into cosmetics.

OK GOOD. You know what, point taken.
While any reputable developer will agree to me that cosmetic-design is definitely less overall work than the likes of mechanic-development I would NEVER claim that it is NO work at all.
But it would NOT "not be worth it" in this instance and it would not be "loads" of it for the leagues of Rare, just look at how many cosmetics they dish out on a regular basis ...
It DEFENATELY would be worth it.

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But ONLY the sails would come with the problem that the previous sails would fall into disuse, as mentioned many times.

Only for those disillusioned about cuts. You give me a golden sail with a V-cut, I'm still going to pick the more prestigious option: the Overachiever Sails. Sails are the first thing you see on another ship, and I would say that making that first impression with an impressive sail is the most important part of an initial encounter.
What do you think scares another ship more: a plain blue sail with a cut that a noob bought for 50k, or Triumphant Sea Dog sails?
I always laugh when I only see DA sails on a ship (and no other DA cosmetics). But when the Brave Vanguard sails are on the horizon, I grab the pineapples.
That's a long way of saying: A lot of newer players would gravitate to cut sails, but you should be able to graduate to sails you're more proud of.

This is where you show your true colors.
The delusion aside, it is effectively the argument of psychological warfare and YES that holds some truth ... but it shatters as soon as you stand behind a 3+ Ship with DA-Sails.
I do not think it would be right to further comment on this part but to thank you for this admittance.

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But I know that this is a nice point for you to continue talking about how great the sail editor would be... but again, it's not feasible.

Not feasible huh? They give us the option to fully customize the various-captains quarters but this is "not feasible". ... Suuurrreee ....

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the fact that they don't go with 95% of cosmetics, which is really the root of all evil here.

Have you ever considered that this might be intentional? You have to weigh the ability to choose your cosmetics vs. perceived advantage. I've always thought that the ability to choose your cosmetics trumps the cut alone - but the only thing I can do on these threads is attack the perceived advantage, which is just so deep into some minds it's crazy. It's really not that big a deal. They're not a serious problem. They might slightly lower your chance of running into rocks. They won't win you fights, they don't make you any gold, they don't make you a better sailor, they don't make it so you don't have to rely on your crew, and they don't punish your experience by making every other sail worse.

If this was actually intentional it would be HORRIBLE game design. Literally giving a Baby candy but only allowing it to taste it on its hilt and I don't judge Rare like this in the slightest. Even YOUR idea of it being some kind of an experiment is WAY more likely and I actually can imagine that.
That aside, they actually might very well win me fights (situational yes but STILL), they obviously help with making me gold, they actually DO make enough helmsmen enjoy their occupation more therefor yes, also BETTER, they make me rely on my crew LESS which gives them more time for other tasks and yes,
they DO punish the experience by indirectly making every other sail worse :P
So where exactly was this overall advantage "perceived" ... ?
An advantage FAR greater than that of ANY other singular cosmetic if compared to the default ...

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I would go for more cuts in the future to appease the players who are so into the DA sails, but if I'm serious there just not enough that year 3-4 players have to be proud of besides the DA sails. No limited-time sails, only a few hard to get sails, and maybe the level 75 sails. That should change at the very least.

At the VERY LEAST ... yes VERY Least ...
But I would NOT want to compromise here.
Compromises like these make the house fall apart.

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When it comes down to it, it's still you unable to reconcile that there is any other choice to be had on the seas. We're getting the point now where a third of what you say is XD, you're delusional, "Nope, your wrong, no evidence required on my part", another third is misunderstanding models and textures, and the other third is "But, like, crews can be lazy between islands! This is a serious problem and Rare needs to decide between punishing player choice, giving me more large cuts ASAP, or spend months making a Sail Editor!"

Sure, I'm too stupid and ignorant to have any say in this, I mean SURE I can choose the worse helmet ... how didn't I see that up to now O.O
I obviously have no idea about coding, OR JUST COMMON UNDERSTANDING OF COMPUTERS at all.
I didn't provide ANY evidence because I always said that I am like God above common sense XD
And I want Rare to personally come to my house and build me an actual Galleon right in my backyard :D
With NEW V-Cut Sails of course ;D

But all fun aside, all I want is for SoT to improve by capitalizing on a development that holds the potential to be VERY beneficial for it on the long run
whereas it now it is rather damaging instead,
even though the argument for it WILL at this stage hurt some peoples feelings.
The V-Cut sails to be more customization-friendly without being any short- or long-term detriment to SoT.
That is all.

PS: I like to use emojis. What in Oblivion is wrong with that :D ?!

@thorumsu When I start writing, I just can't stop sometimes :D
This topic is close to my heart you know.
Have spent at least ~1.1k hours behind the helm of Galleons.

Oh how I would wish to enjoy the DA-Luxury with some Ghost-Sails instead of forever glancing at this red diamond ...
and I know I am not alone with such a realization.
So I, for my part am ever ready to spread the word.
But yes ... it reached volumes didn't it XD

@thorumsu Wait a quick moment, you actually say that I am the one to hold a non-civil conversation?
I don't think it's because I like to make good use CAPS & Emojis?
Because I did so from the beginning and will not stop using those here XD
This is a forum on the internet, we are not writing letters to our bosses.

Other than that just for the record, I never insulted anyone directly, their arguments at best.
Mod showed up after the other dude started doing so when he ran out of arguments.
And I rather not respond to direct insults, luckily, Mod did that for me, I was thankful for that.
So please show me where I was the "uncivil" one.
Hearing someone that shares my stance falling for insults I chose not to respond to,
hurts more than any BS to oppose it ever did.

The fact that DA-Sails provide THE overall un-ignorable advantage is not something up for debate.
That is not a question of opinion.
Some DO and WILL not accept this reality, I fully understand why, but it is impossible to expose this issue without opposing them.
I tried.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if your advise centers around me perhaps having gone down too hard with reality on them ... well ...
Maybe you are right with that.

Btw. a quick sidenote:

On my YT-Video someone suggested something VERY interesting.
Simply increasing the height of each mast in order to bring every ship up to the "level of the Sloop".
It is in fact a very interesting idea, it would ofc need some design-love in order to look good but I mention it here as even more food-for-thought.
More V-Sails and a Sail-Shape-Editor later would indubitably still improve on the game much more though.

... Thinking hard about this ... ... ... is that really an option? ... Wouldn't that look super weird and undermine the point of this entire issue XD ?!

Ah well ... one can never have enough food for thought though I guess :P

@samwol5232 The moment the DA-Sails were released this entire issue arose.
While I 100% agree with you on this ... Interestingly enough, a lot of people argue that this advantage is 100% made up and absolutely ignorable.
Now, IF that was the case (which it isn't ofc, these people purposefully lie to themselves, almost can't blame them), well ...
then what you say is also without value as people will just continue using whatever they want :)

This is of course not the case, you are absolutely right. Almost everybody that owns the DA-Shape or something similar WILL of course use it, just like you said.
Personally, I would just accept that. NEVERTHELESS it of course cannot be understated that this would literally change the scenery of the SoT forever.
HOWEVER, when the DA-Sails were released, the first 100 miles of the journey to this change were already walked in an instant.
The DA-Sails alone are already a dominant enough sight number-wise,
and ONLY the bothersome temptation of another (sadly objectively inferior) sail's beauty in combination with their high price still prevent them from absolute majority.
A sail-editor would obviously remove this inferiority and lead to a MASSIVE increase in V-shaped sails or their likes, just like you said.

As mentioned however, personally I would honestly see little to no problem in that as they make sailing SIGNIFICANTLY more enjoyable on Brigs and Galleons.
However, it is absolutely understandable that not everybody will agree with me on that as the classic square shape is with nay a doubt well ... a classic.

There are the following options:

1. Not to release a Sail editor and merely release a handful of other sails with a similar sight than the DA-Sails to at least satisfy most tastes. (Ghostly, Fiery, Gilded, Shipwrecked ...)
[That however comes with the drawback that it would probably have at least ~50% of all previous Sail-Usage go to waste. So I, for my part, only recommended this as a temporary solution as a bridge leading to the following.]

2. To release a Sail editor and make the price for applying the V-like-Shape to another sail VERY high.
If we were to use this system I though don't think 2 mil would be nearly enough ... I am thinking more in the ranges of 10mil to be needed.
[THAT would still ensure the continued usage of ALL sails while still being hard enough to obtain moneywise to prevent the classic square-shape from becoming endangered.
HOWEVER, that comes with one minor disadvantage: The number of people that will complain about that being an unfair advantage WILL increase
AND they'd be right. SINCE this is already the case in a minor form though ... that should not be a deal-breaker in any way.
This COULD be remedied however by adding maybe ONE, ONLY ONE type of V-like-shaped sail for ... say ~3mil, I think the Shipwrecked Style would be the ideal choice for this.
This one sail should be relatively easy to obtain so these people are granted an equal chance.]

3. Do nothing and continue to indirectly bar people like me from fully enjoying the great customization that SoT has to offer. (Along with reducing your ingame-shop profits)
This does not actually deserve to be called 'solution' XD
[+ This is where a lot of folks already cried at me "You bar yourself! It is merely in your head!"
... Yeah ...
Yout know what is also in my head? My eyes, and they kind of like to see ... and I happen to know that many other share that stance.
And don't give me the 'Curl' for the 10000x time XD ... you know it, I know it, it is NOT a solution to this issue.]

4. Remove the V-Cut of the DA-Sails
[A tiny part of me would actually love to see that happen even though it WOULD of course cost countless others and myself a handy QoA-luxury HOWEVER it would actually cause a MASSIVE outcry of people shouting that the V-Cut was the exact reason they bought these sails for, which would prove me right. ... They should really NOT do that ...
it would also somewhat conflict with the other DA-Cosmetics, after all a lot of people bought the entire set BECAUSE of the sails.
BUT if they also AT LEAST refund us the 8mil ... this option, even though lazy and somewhat counterproductive AND something they should NOT do ... ... ... WOULD solve this issue.]

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It should be obvious that 2 is what they should go for on the long run.

PS:
None of this wasn't suggested before to a certain degree, yet I am happy to repeat it and I for my part am obviously very sad that with the release of "Captaincy" we got effectively nothing that addresses this issue even though I was really hoping for AT least Option 1 to be honest. "Captaincy" was one of the reasons I refrained from this forum as-well ...
Change was coming after all.
...
HOWEVER: I cannot help but feel a tiny bit of hope when looking at the selection screen of owned ships where it is the sails that are displayed instead of anything else ... who knows ...