QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".

  • I'm still fresh in Sea of Thieves, but the general feeling I got from it is "cutlass is love, cutlass is life".

    Guns are just too slow. Despite how with S5 Rare finally made it viable to two-gun against PvE encounters even on islands that don't have ammo boxes on them, or force kiting the enemy right next to your ship so you can refill your ammo aboard, many enemies have the tendency to rush you and that unfortunately forces you many times to cancel a reload, or for you to sprint as you thought the reload animation was over just to turn around and find out your gun actually didn't reload. This is an annoying occurence in PvE but can also be the final nail in the coffin for your ship in PvP.
    I was reminded of a mechanic the game Left 4 Dead has, zombie game focused on hordes that keep rushing at you, and how it handled reloading when you're constantly interrupted and forced to shove the horde away: The reload animation is in stages and instead of starting from the beginning, if you interrupt it by swapping weapons or with a shove, it resumes from where it left off allowing you to complete a lengthy reload even as you're being pressured by a horde of zombies. If you're constantly interrupted eventually the reload animation itself is also sped up, but that doesn't matter to me.

    The reload animations in Sea of Thieves already have two distinct motions: you insert the projectile, then you ready the hammer. Would it be too much to ask you're only required to ready the hammer if you interrupted in your reload animation, but were already halfway through it? It's a tiny change but I feel would be a great boon for two-gun users, greater than further nerfing the cutlass.

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  • Sounds like a good idea, but maybe it affects, I don't know how much, the balance between weapons. You're looking at the PvE issue, but have to look at PvP as well. I'm going to wait to have a point of view on this

  • Personally I don't think that this would have any "game-breaking" eefects on PvE or PvP encounters.

    If you look at the current state of the PvP meta, you're pretty much being shoehorned into using the cutlass either way unless you know how to quick swap which is an exploit in itself.

    This would be a good option to replace the need to exploit mechanics for those players who prefer a double gun setup.

    It would sacrifice the massive damage dealt by getting blasted by flintlock and then blunderbuss in quick succession for being able to reload slightly quicker when swapping between weapons.

  • @maironds88 Well if this reaches Rare, the idea would be to have them play around with the feature and see if it's something they may want to implement in the game or not.
    Personally I don't see how this change would affect the balance between the ranged weapons as the total reload time remains the same, just broken in two stages; in regards to the cutlass, this is exactly geared towards still giving double gunners a chance if they failed to kill a sword user before they could get in melee range.
    I know blunderbombs could be used to push the sword user off, but both players have access to blunderbombs and to throw off the sword user the double gunner has to sustain some self-damage, while the sword user just as well can throw off the double gunner's aim while keeping away from their own bomb's blast.

  • I like the Left 4 Dead reference and the shove. This move wouldn't deal damage, but allows for a breather. Adding that alone may be enough, rather than breaking the reload into parts. I say that cause you wouldn't want people to start reloading, eat some fruit, then finish reloading while not in direct danger.

    It's true that PVE enemies sometimes simply overwhelm you, leaving no options other than run around in no particular fun ways. Against human players, the shove could potentially make sword fights more interesting, as long as you can't just keep shoving your way out of close encounters.

  • @liberance said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    you wouldn't want people to start reloading, eat some fruit, then finish reloading while not in direct danger.

    Uuh, why? Why would or wouldn't you want that? You're outside of combat so how and when you reload doesn't matter.
    Adding a shove would be a much more significant change to the game's balance that I'm not sure anyone at Rare would be comfortable doing, adding to that, I don't know where the input for such a thing could be added on a controller.

  • @arthurmora8162

    Feels to me like it'd make things too easy against human players.

  • i think it would make double gunning op and the sword would not be used nearly as much

  • @liberance
    If you're talking about shoving yes, I have not suggested that addition. Spamming shoves would be too easy.
    If you're on about breaking your reload to eat something inbetween I don't see any significant advantage, as you also specified you're not in any direct danger. Again, I am not suggesting a buff to reload speed, the time you'd take eating a fruit and reloading your gun would be the exact same, if not a little worse because you're swapping items in your hand twice instead of just once by breaking your reload.

  • @madfrito99
    I don't see how this change would turn the tables so much you could call double gunning "OP", not considering exploits of course but then I also don't see how you would make that exploit worse with this, at melee range the cutlass still wins big against a blunderbuss that's not ready to fire. Regardless, I hope you'll agree Rare can be the judge themselves if they come to testing it.

  • @arthurmora8162 you would be cutting down the reload time

  • @madfrito99
    The total reload time would be the same, the change I suggest does not increase reload speed, the only difference is you can reload halfway and finish reloading at a later time without having to start from 0. You do not shoot faster, it just means you can fully reload even having just two small windows of time to dedicate to reloading instead of requiring a single, longer window. It's a situational improvement that will come to improve the quality of gunplay in some scenarios.

  • @arthurmora8162 said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    @madfrito99
    The total reload time would be the same, the only difference is you can reload halfway and finish reloading at a later time without having to start from 0. You do not shoot faster, it just means you can fully reload having two small windows of time to dedicate to reloading instead of requiring a single, unbroken window, a situational improvement.

    Yes, but the point @madfrito99 was getting at is that the amount of time you spend reloading decreases if it goes in stages. What's faster, cancelling a reload halfway to eat and then reloading from the beginning, or cancelling a reload halfway to eat and then only needing to reload the last half? I don't have anything against your idea, but it would lessen the hard decisions you have to make between getting a bullet or more health.
    I'd be down with Rare playing around with it, but in the end it is a buff to all guns.

  • @grumpyw01f
    That yes, it is. The reload remains lengthy which is what makes me say it won't be too great a buff for it to make the weapons suddenly unbalanced, but in the end I'm talking about this as a buff, because starting over every time feels a little too punishing.

  • @ArthurMora8162 The reload already has 2 stages - before and after the hammer pull. If you cancel your reload during the former, you will have to restart the reload; if you cancel after, you can shoot immediately, even though the reload animation itself hasn't finished yet.

  • @galactic-geek
    That's more an animation cancel, it similarly gives a little leeway by saying "yeah, sure, gun's as good as loaded so go on" while what I'm asking for is making the game aknowledge "you already put the round in, alright, just pull the hammer now".

  • @arthurmora8162 said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    @galactic-geek
    That's more an animation cancel, it similarly gives a little leeway by saying "yeah, sure, gun's as good as loaded so go on" while what I'm asking for is making the game aknowledge "you already put the round in, alright, just pull the hammer now".

    The game already does that - it's why you don’t always have a full reload after every shot - it remembers that you already chambered the round when you pull it out again.

  • @galactic-geek
    No it doesn't, and that's with me testing it right now for confirmation: unless you let the animation run until you fully pull the hammer back (and you know when the hammer is fully cocked as it has a clear sound indication), if you swap out the weapon or break into a sprint, on re-equipping the reload animation will start over from the beginning with you putting the ball in and so on.
    Or maybe what you mean is the reload animation can already be separated in two clear stages which are putting the ball in and cocking the hammer, both being marked by a clear sound, that is true. I want those stages in the reload to be considered mechanically, all the sound and animation work has already been done basically, 'all' you would need to do is to take a big imaginary knife and cut right where the sound of the ball entering the barrel ends and making it stage 1 of the reload, if you already let stage 1 of the reload play you will only be asked to let stage 2 of the animation to finish before the gun is considered loaded and ready to fire.

  • @arthurmora8162 said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    @galactic-geek
    No it doesn't, and that's with me testing it right now for confirmation: unless you let the animation run until you fully pull the hammer back (and you know when the hammer is fully cocked as it has a clear sound indication), if you swap out the weapon or break into a sprint, on re-equipping the reload animation will start over from the beginning with you putting the ball in and so on.
    Or maybe what you mean is the reload animation can already be separated in two clear stages which are putting the ball in and cocking the hammer, both being marked by a clear sound, that is true. I want those stages in the reload to be considered mechanically, all the sound and animation work has already been done basically, 'all' you would need to do is to take a big imaginary knife and cut right where the sound of the ball entering the barrel ends and making it stage 1 of the reload, if you already let stage 1 of the reload play you will only be asked to let stage 2 of the animation to finish before the gun is considered loaded and ready to fire.

    Sounds like it's making things needlessly more complicated on the mechanics side of things, but from an ease of use standpoint, I suppose I could get behind that.

    Actually, maybe not - it would allow pirates to prefire a shot when not in danger, and cancel the reload to a desired position so that they could fire more quickly when they are in danger (at least compared to now, if they forgot to finish the reload completely).

    Honestly, though, I don't see this as much of an issue - knowing how to time your movements with your aim and reload along with your opposition's movements is a whole part of the strategy and tactics needed for winning an aggressive encounter. I personally do just fine most of the time (of course, I primarily run pistol/sword/blunderbombs, due to its versatility, so I just shoot, slash, move, and bomb my way to victory).

  • @galactic-geek said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    it would allow pirates to prefire a shot when not in danger, and cancel the reload to a desired position so that they could fire more quickly when they are in danger (at least compared to now, if they forgot to finish the reload completely).

    That doesn't make sense. They could always just complete the reload in a safe situation- a loaded gun will still always fire faster than an unloaded or partially loaded gun will.

  • @mr-whaletoes said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    @galactic-geek said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    it would allow pirates to prefire a shot when not in danger, and cancel the reload to a desired position so that they could fire more quickly when they are in danger (at least compared to now, if they forgot to finish the reload completely).

    That doesn't make sense. They could always just complete the reload in a safe situation- a loaded gun will still always fire faster than an unloaded or partially loaded gun will.

    I suppose that's true (and is something that I actually considered during my initial post), but it reminds me a lot of what the sword used to be able to do - hitting the ground or anything nearby to start a combo early to ensure you hit 1st because you're already swinging. I feel like this runs along those same lines.

  • @galactic-geek said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    it would allow pirates to prefire a shot when not in danger, and cancel the reload to a desired position so that they could fire more quickly when they are in danger (at least compared to now, if they forgot to finish the reload completely).

    Uh... no? It would still be much faster to have a loaded gun than to cancel your reload halfway and still needing to finish reloading once you need to fire. Your gun wouldn't be ready to fire if you just put the round in, you haven't cocked the hammer back.

    And this addition is not meant to be a huge thing, just as what I mean address isn't a huge issue, read the title QoL. In some cases this change may make some situations play differently and especially so if you're two-gun, it would feel better to use guns overall, really explaining this is more complicated than it actually is and I believe I've done well enough to correct misunderstandings.

  • @mr-whaletoes thank you.

  • Ultimately, my view on this is that what you are asking for is a more consistently better double gunning experience, which sounds appealing, but may be fundamentally imbalanced.

    Let's say that the damage potential / boarding success of any particular loadout can be graded on a scale of 1-7 (1 being the worst, 7 being the best). In fact, you could survey the community to get the perceived average range, then determine the low and high value to which the majority of respondents would fall in (lets say 60%). This assumes a bellcurve distribution.

    Below is an example of what I think you would find if you surveyed the whole playerbase:

    What I think you would find is that for sword and gun combos, the distribution would be tighter and would be more bell curve like, with most respondents replying that sword and gun are about a 4-5 in terms of effectiveness out of a possible 7. The average in this case would be close to 4.5/7. The tighter distribution makes sense. Sword is a lower skill ceiling, and there is less room to make mistakes swapping to a single gun, and reloading a single gun.

    However, for different configurations of double gun, I would bet you the distribution is wider, and possibly even more bimodal, with 60% of respondents falling between 3-6 out of 7, and peaks closer to 3 and closer to 6, with less people thinking it is just average.
    In this case though, the average is still 4.5, which means that it is 'balanced' but you have to remember that half of the respondents think it is actually worse than 4.5/7, and so will not use the weapon config. It also depends on where your natural ability lies. Good FPS player will probably view the loadout more favorably, and will take on roles more aligned with their skillset (boarders). This means double gunning is predominantly being used by those who view it on the higher end of the spectrum, raising the actual average proficiency in practice above the average for sword/gun.

    The same could be said for sword/gun to an extent, but sword is largely viewed as the 'default' loadout, especially due to it's utility even outside of combat, and is more accessible for the average player.

    Therefore, even though the perceived averages are the same, the wider distribution for double gun effectively means it is the better weapon composition in the right hands, i.e. it has a higher skill ceiling. This isn't all that surprising, but it has implications for balancing.

    Buffing higher skill ceiling weapon loadouts tends to break balance more than buffing lower skill ceiling because, quite frankly, better players find new and better ways to counter new metas or create new ones. Double gunning is most effective in the hands of people who know the game inside and out, and have trained their aim in a multitude of more competitive shooters. They know the typical spawn points on ships to camp, know the ammo locations well, know how to animation cancel, know how much health the player has, and of course know how to aim well.

    Adding weight to these guns, sometimes purposefully by making animations take a certain amount of time, or purposefully preventing fast switching is a design choice meant to curb what I call "hyper optimization." If you left balancing decisions to the best PvPers in the community, they would suggest changes that increase fluidity of combat because they ultimately are the ones who best perceive the inherent weight of animations. Everything feels sluggish to them because they exhibit the fastest reflexes, have trained their hand-eye coordination, and make use of every tool available to win.

    They may make the recommendation because they truly believe the game will be better off with more fluid combat, but ultimately, they are biased. Not biased to make the game necessarily easier for them to dominate it. On the contrary, biased because they believe the game should offer more of a challenge by raising the skill ceiling higher.

    To me, the inherent weightiness of guns IS the balancing force, and possibly should be even more weighty, not less. Increasing fluidity might make battles among high skill players more intense, but will actually make other battles significantly less intense and less fun when it comes to high skill players fighting lower skill players (which happens quite a lot!)

    So I oppose anything that makes the high skill ceiling weapon loadouts, i.e. double gunning better, even if this change is targeted as a quality of life improvement / realism suggestion, it will make all guns better and therefore double gunning will likely gain the most from this. It is already used by the best players, and likely for good reason, and while the best players deserve to win, I don't think weapon loadouts should be changed to favor that without also seriously reconsidering how the game is marketed. Sea of Thieves is just not an E-sport title despite the various attempts to get it to become popular on Twitch and implement an arena mode. Maybe they could have been if they just listened to the hardcore crowd, but maybe the game also wouldn't be as popular as it is today in attracting new players.

    I certainly support any change that makes reload / gun mechanics more consistent, i.e. fixing bugs and exploits like animation canceling that can hide evidence for how effective double gunning truly can be. Only then can the community properly assess if this weapon config is balanced. Until then, straight up buffs such as making things take less time overall / saving reload states because you chose to switch off weapon are just not something I support. There is plenty of evidence to rebalance other aspects of the game, including ships, but in my view, double gunning is already in a good spot, and might even be too strong.

  • @galactic-geek said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    it reminds me a lot of what the sword used to be able to do - hitting the ground or anything nearby to start a combo early to ensure you hit 1st because you're already swinging. I feel like this runs along those same lines.

    It's not at all similar. There is no windup to firing your gun, and there would be no advantage to reload your gun just halfway if you have the ability to fully reload while not under pressure.

  • @arthurmora8162 said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    @galactic-geek said in QoL: Separate the reload animations in multiple "stages".:

    it reminds me a lot of what the sword used to be able to do - hitting the ground or anything nearby to start a combo early to ensure you hit 1st because you're already swinging. I feel like this runs along those same lines.

    It's not at all similar. There is no windup to firing your gun, and there would be no advantage to reload your gun just halfway if you have the ability to fully reload while not under pressure.

    That's kind of the crux though. Using double guns is all about keeping away from pressure, and succeeding in that gives you the time needed to reload.

    @CaliCorsairCat 👍

  • @calicorsaircat
    That's some brain food. I'm still not bought on this being much more than QoL focused more on lowering the skill floor and not raising the skill ceiling (because if you're a two-gun crackshot, you wouldn't have missed and need reloading with an enemy player breathing down your neck), but I guess that's to leave the experts to judge.

  • I’d be down just as long as sword got something else, not too big of a buff, because it’s most recent one is very good, but something just enough to keep it in competition with double gun/ guns in general

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