Front mounted cannons

@yaboysuy0 Respectfully disagree. And it has to come at the cost of side cannons (maybe all of them). Just because some people don't want to PvP doesn't mean other players shouldn't be able to attack them. It's a PvP game that also has PvE elements.

The counter to this would be that the "prey" could turn hard to one side and use their cannons in a side-by-side engagement, where the front-cannon ship has fewer (or none at all).

The harpoon only works if you're already very close. Not only that but the harpoon is far buggier than cannons. I've seen my harpoons go straight up or backwards sometimes and not come back. Plus, it doesn't face fully forward.

Changing the balance between attacker and prey is the whole point. Too many PvE players try to sink their ship and loot where nobody can get the loot/flag. That's the in-balance in the game that needs fixing. This would help fix it. It is a PvP game, there need to be moments when you're the hunter, and others when you're the prey. The PvE element ensures you can be either, and if you get good at both, you can do PvE and still get PvP loot.

If not front mounted cannons, then what would you suggest to make the PvP aspect still worth playing when someone tries to be a coward?

I keep hearing some people saying that "not everyone likes PvP" but it is a PvP game. The game for PvE only could never be called Sea of Thieves, but instead Sea of Merchants. The ability for a PvE only player to decide they don't want to be attacked is fine, but that needs to come at a cost, like the loss of their treasure. And all the cowardly Shroud Scuttling that goes on now needs to be countered. At the very least the flag/treasure needs to respawn where it can be collected by the hunters.

@jayjaycannon This game is quite balanced as is. Any change as the one you are suggesting would break it. As noted, harpoons are up front to reel in whomever you are chasing. Yes, you have to be close to land the harpoon, but that’s on you and your crew to out-sail the crew in front of you and close the gap. Just because YOU want to fight doesn’t mean the crew in front of you wants to fight. You are already forcing them into a situation of chase they probably don’t want. They have to be given an equal chance of escape. I’m all for PvP, the more the better, but all types of players play this game and the Devs have done a pretty good job thinking through the balance

@jayjaycannon Also, while you may not like the Shroud tactic, it’s legitimate. They out-sailed your crew. The winds constantly shift giving you opportunity to gain ground. If they kept the distance, good on them for staying on top of the sails. Dumping loot in the Shroud may not be in the spirit of the game, but it’s like a draw. Neither crew got the loot. Both crews wasted a bunch of time in a chase. It sounds like you are upset because didn’t get the loot. If it’s clear you aren’t going to catch them, break off the chase and either scout where you think they’ll go (i.e. closest outpost) or go do something else and you might get lucky and come across them again finishing a mission

@promotordj The "pvp they didn't want" mentality that so many think is a real argument is a weak one. The game is not PvE only, or PvP by invite only. It absolutely needs the PvP aspect for it to be a Pirate game. It isn't:

• Sea of Ladies and Gentlemen
• Sea of Pre-planned and Agreed Upon Duels
• Sea of Ask First Shoot Second
• Sea of We're Not in it for PvP

And as far as outsailing someone that's easy since so many people all know the wind mechanics. I've solo sailed a brig waiting for friends to hop online while "outsailing" a group behind me. That's not skill like you think, it is inbalanced. A solo brig should not be able to outsail a crewed galleon/sloop.

@jayjaycannon Nobody thus far have argued against your "this is a PvEvP game" argument. YES: PvP exists in this game. YES: All players should expect PvP in this game. But there still exist players who don't like it (e.g. ALLLL the threads and the Mega Thread containing the PvP vs PvE). For those that want to play this game, but want to avoid the PvP, Rare has included a balanced escape plan.

Yes, the various ships wind mechanics are well known. And it's NOT imbalanced. Sloop against the wind at Default Sail is faster than a Brig against the wind at Default Sail, which in turn is faster than a Galleon against the wind at Default Sail. Each ship has strengths at different wind directions. Each ship has different turning speeds and agility as well. Each has differing amount of fire power. If you were in a Brig chasing a Galleon with wind, you wouldn't catch it either. Is that imbalanced as well? The Devs have balanced each ship very well. Each ship has it's strengths and weaknesses. It's up to you to know each and try to play to the strengths of your own ship and to the weaknesses of the ship you are chasing.

@promotordj Agreed, that the ship wind mechanics are balanced well.

But the ability to dump loot/flags in the shroud where it is unobtainable or "trade in" or "sell" your flag while at sea (especially since level 2+ flags still give experience and gold) is broken. That isn't skill.

I get it, having stuff stolen from you when you're trying to do a tall tale or a regular voyage isn't fun. I've had plenty of stuff stolen, especially when solo slooping. But that's part of the game, and it makes for more cautious players. Now when I really want to solo sloop I don't carelessly dig up treasure or roll up on an island with skellie captains. And if I notice a ship that has been in view for a few of my island hops I anticipate they are watching and I make plans to get my gold easier.

Selling more often is the way voyage-only players need to account for the thieves in Sea of Thieves.

Front-mounted cannons level the playing field for Shroud Scuttlers. But it needs to come at the cost of loss of side firepower, maybe all of it. Having cannons in both places would be OP. Then when that front cannon (which isn't a guaranteed hit thanks to better sailing and waves) is in range the prey in the scenario can change directions to make it a battle where they have cannons and the predator does not.

@jayjaycannon
I like how you use the term "Balanced" when your idea is far from it. A forward facing cannon is a balancing nightmare that completely removes running from the equation. That isn't balancing. I may not like runners either, but this game is based upon personal choices. People shouldn't have to fight if running is an option, having a forward cannon completely removes their choice in that. I hate that people can just run into the red as much as any "Shoot on sight" crew can, but the complete removal of something can't be called balancing.

You attempt to balance it out by adjusting side cannons, but that really isn't a trade-off. A forward facing cannon gives an extreme advantage of location. Ask yourself this, what are the most ideal places to shoot an opposing ship? That would be the sides, thus the rear and front would by extension be the least ideal, why? Due to the fact that shots that hit those locations have few spots to open holes. Now I have a spot where I can attack with much less risk to myself, I could rotate in place with a forward gun, never to expose my most vulnerable sections. Part of the balance in this game is when two ships fight, they both must expose themselves to their most vulnerable spots to deal damage. From a game perspective that makes sense, it provides a good game balance. The trade-off is brain dead easy, you gain more than you lose.

Just to sneak this is to, combine this with chain-shot and the ability to launch never ending boarders is game breaking. Throw in also the fact that you have harpoons as well that help that gap. Even the shot angle is one of the easiest shots to hit. A ship moving in a direct non-parallel approach is an easy to hit target.

Your counter argument is for the "prey" to be forced to fight, which again removes a players choice on how they approach a fight. Fight and Flight should always remain on the table.

TLDR: You aren't asking for balance, but the complete removal of running.

I feel solo play would be extremely difficult as fighting as a solo is about fighting smart. Your options are limited if they can just anchorball you from behind to prevent you running. Your already out gunned and out manned, it would be unrealistic to find success as a solo in a pvp encounter with these cannons.

I get the game aint built around solo but i dont want to be forced into a crew when ive been enjoying ny solo adventures near 2 years now.

@nabberwar You're ignoring half of the point of the game. It isn't a PvE only game. Nobody is ever forced into PvP, that is part of the game. By logging into Adventure mode you are choosing PvEvP. That's the fun of it.

The other things you mention don't imbalance the game, especially if loss of some/all side firepower are the tradeoffs. Even as the game is, if the front ship is only slightly ahead they can angle their ship to get cannon fire when the trailing ship still has no angle at all to fire.

As far as never-ending launched boarders the counter to this already exists which is never-ending boarders from the front ship. Currently the advantage is completely in favor of the front ship. My crew has gotten pretty good at spotting and preventing boarders, and if front-facing cannons were in the game players would get good at dealing with launched boarders too.

Additionally, the counter argument about large/small sides of a ship forgets that a ship running away only exposes the back of their ship. This is the smallest area to repair and with the least amount of areas for holes too. It is an ideal area to have regular shots. And you're not likely to get sunk in that scenario. Plus once the rear ship catches up their lack of side cannons prevent them from damaging the rest of the ship. It allows the rear crew a chance to win with swords/guns. Firebombing the boarded ship takes a long time which is probably good. So, the rear ship has to stop the front ship, board, out PvP, and wait until they can finally sink the ship, which would be slower than current.

@jayjaycannon

@nabberwar You're ignoring half of the point of the game. It isn't a PvE only game. Nobody is ever forced into PvP, that is part of the game. By logging into Adventure mode you are choosing PvEvP. That's the fun of it.

Mate, I am well aware that this isn't a PvE game, I am one of those types of crews that sinks everyone, no questions asked. My point is that this is a PvEvP game, that means non-fight tactics should still be viable. A forward facing cannon ensures that running becomes next to impossible. Your idea presented here ensures that everyone must fight in order to escape. Even in a game like Rust, a game extremely more PvP oriented than this game, players have the option to run if they don't want to fight at that moment.

The other things you mention don't imbalance the game, especially if loss of some/all side firepower are the tradeoffs.

Even a loss of some cannons isn't a trade-off. Having angles from 3/4 sides is a blessing, not a detriment. Look at a Galleon, even if you lose four of your 8 side cannons, you still have the ability to deal damage on those sides. The current META of this game relies strongly on boarding over fire-power anyway. Being able to board at 3 angles is a huge power boost. A good crew will rarely being using all of their side cannons, unless the oposing crew is trash. Most good crews have roles or adaptive playstyles that will rotate members from cannons to repair/bail/board. Losing a few side cannons isn't a real great loss. If you are facing a good crew, you probably can't afford to run all 4 cannons.

As far as never-ending launched boarders the counter to this already exists which is never-ending boarders from the front ship.

There is no denying that the current game that the lead crew in a chase has a tactical advantage. However, what you suggests doesn't just merely tip the scales, but fully weights down the one side. The power to chainshot is a massive power spike to the crew that can't fire their cannons back. Sure, they can do a drift board/keg, but a cannon is game changing.

Look at it this way, what is the counter play involved here? Currently runners can either drift to board, keg, or throw fire. All of these things can be played around. A keg can be pre-detonated in the water. Fire can be put out before it can spread, and boarders can be guarded against by watching ladders. What is the counter play for Chains? Usually its either dish out as much damage back to ensure that the other crew is occupied with their own ship damage to focus up with a follow up barrage or boarding. Another option is to turn the ship and disengage before all masts follow the first. Lastly they can just be quick on the repairs.

However, this changes when you are chasing. They can't disengage to prevent their other masts going, because lets be real, those masts (Ducks) are all in a row. Any deviation from going straight means the chasing crew will gain ground. They can't fire back besides send boarders, but again, counter play exists for those. All that is left is to react to them going down, and that is hardly a strategy. There really is no counter play as a runner here, that is where the problem lies

I get it, chases favor the lead ship, but cannons aren't the answer here. Just to not leave you here with no other ideas, but here is some alternative suggestions.

1. Drafting could be a thing, takes a lot of effort to make it probably, but it still is more feasible than cannons

2. Wind changes more often. This at least rewards proactive sailing, so essentially the better sailors will have a higher skill ceiling.

3. Addition of speed boosting items. This works both ways, chaser and runners can use them. However, tie them to an event of sorts to rewards players who go and hunt for them. Make it a throwable reverse curse, a Blessing Ball if you will (Gale Ball/Zephyr Ball). Gives a ship max sails for a small amount of time.

Maybe look at it differently, reverse the idea. Give ships a rear cannon, does the addition to the cannon assist in anyway, or does it just make the other side extremely one sided? Any cannon in the rear or back will make the scales heavily lean one side pretty much uncontestably. In my opinion, better to just keep side cannons than deal with the mess this would create.

@nabberwar The front-facing only cannons isn't OP. But getting some cannons on the side still would be on a galleon for sure. But if a sloop chases down a runner and their only gun is on the front, they have to stay behind the runner. It's like a dog that has the ability to keep up with a car it is chasing. The dog still can't do anything with the car once it catches up. But in this scenario it allows the chasing ship to get on board.

I do like some of your alternative suggestions. But it still doesn't fix the loot in the red sea issue. If a ship volunteers to go off map the loot/flag should float up in range for pickup. Then front-facing cannons wouldn't be necessary.

That said, front-facing cannons only would still provide a fun game mechanic, and if that means a counter-balance needs to be added (maybe optional rear facing cannons) then I still think it would be fun to add that to the game.

I'd say these strategies are to balance out the spawn camping...

Just learn to play ;)

@mrat13 Spawn camping needs to be balanced out too. That is a problem. So is spawn killing. It is so easy to kill the character since they aren't able to react for the first half of damage you can give them as they load back in. That definitely needs to be fixed.

@jayjaycannon I'm pleasantly surprised you understand the problem I am highlighting. However, you first have to fix the problems with PvP, before targeting PvE players.

If combat was more focused on ship combat over boarding, say to start you get ship supplies in barrels when a ship sinks, so no downside to sinking it, and then build from that, as well as making Arena more popular, which would draw in solely PvP away from the PvPvE adventure mode (harder to do now, but my point still stands), then tactics that involve spiting your opponent would be less needed.

Obviously, my ideas are just a base, and it will require a lot of work and ideas to get right, but since it will overall benefit the game, no cost is too great.

@mrat13 said in Front mounted cannons:

@jayjaycannon I'm pleasantly surprised you understand the problem I am highlighting. However, you first have to fix the problems with PvP, before targeting PvE players.

I've been on both ends of that deal. When dealing the spawn damage I quickly realized that it was way easy for me to kill the player loading in. And not attacking as soon as you see a player is hard because you don't want to wait for them to start attacking you.

If combat was more focused on ship combat over boarding, say to start you get ship supplies in barrels when a ship sinks, so no downside to sinking it, and then build from that, as well as making Arena more popular, which would draw in solely PvP away from the PvPvE adventure mode (harder to do now, but my point still stands), then tactics that involve spiting your opponent would be less needed.

Agreed. Better focus on improving non-boarding combat would also help here. It is so much harder to sink a ship without boarding, anchoring and stopping them from repairs. I think encouraging PvEvP is still the best combo, but some aspects need to be balanced out.

The supply barrels from sunken ships would be fantastic!

Obviously, my ideas are just a base, and it will require a lot of work and ideas to get right, but since it will overall benefit the game, no cost is too great.

I think they could toy around with the ideas in insider a little more. It would make it more worth while playing insider if it was more of a trial-and-error for these sorts of things.