[Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5

  • @ordainedarron said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @eatdamuffin said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @ordainedarron said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @eatdamuffin saying that PvP is the only thing in the game is your opinion. Other people enjoy the exploration. People who will play PvE will not affect your game as they will, and, are choosing not to play. Objecting to PvE is only affecting those who wish to play in that style.

    I already outlined why exploration isn't really a thing in this game. But there is PvE, I also think I supported my point pretty well about why the game would need a massive core redesign to support PvE servers. And sometimes getting what you think you want isn't always the same.

    Again that is your opinion. Many players love going from island to island and seeing subtle details or just even collecting and selling chests. Also it wouldn't require a massive game redesign as one of their updates included private against public ships. Apart from adding the servers the alteration would be pretty similar. Also what you think isn't what everyone else thinks.

    You're being vague "many players" love this or that. You don't have any hard data to back it up and my points were about the game as is right now. I didn't cite any pretend data on my side, I don't doubt that some players are upset about losing in PVP and because of that want PVE servers only or that some players may enjoy just sailing about. I've seen it firsthand, the second I helped some people win a fight in PVP all of a sudden they loved it.

    But I suspect based on how barebones the game is right now if those players got their way, they'd hate the game and it wouldn't sustain even a meager population. The core of the game is designed around player interaction and conflict, you take that out and what is already an unfinished game would feel soulless.

    Now I'm not against Rare and others coming up with bones to give players that prefer PVE more than PVP something.

    I want...

    • More interesting, developed, varied, and challenging AI encounters.
    • I think vertical progression for PVE only would be fine and dandy and would help with point 1.
    • Better tutorials to enhance matchmaking and more robust in game tools to help report in game directly toxic players or players suspected of cheating.

    But creating PVE only servers would be the absolute death of this game.

  • @nwo-azcrack said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @ordainedarron
    And that is exactly what most of us dont want. We dont want the devs spending time trying to make a pve server. Or spend the time to make more things to do in a pve only server. They dont want us seperate. All they have to do is keep the content comming and the pvp pve balance will be fine. Ppl are just bored right now.

    I'm not so sure, I think the assumption there is that people who are bored by a lack of content are turning to combat only instead.
    While more content might keep some people busy in the short term, and even bring a few people back to see whats new, long term while there are so many players who seem to prefer the combat elements, and already rarely bother doing missions but instead would rather attack other players to take what they have got, or even just to sink them for giggles, nothing would change.

    As @OrdainedArron said, there are also a hell of a lot of people that are fed up with how the PVP works, and prefer the PVE elements and as in the instance of the people I have been playing the game with, have stopped playing entirely as a result of the PVP, I've lost count of how many people I've come across that call this game sea of Griefers now.
    As I said above, I don't mind the battles but not when it becomes so frequent one of us has to stay on the boat at all times bored out of our minds just to keep watch for the next in a long line of Griefers......not when there is a whole load of other multiplayer games out there where you wont have to.

  • @eatdamuffin said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @ordainedarron said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @eatdamuffin said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @ordainedarron said in [Mega Thread] Balancing Exploration and Player Combat - Part 5:

    @eatdamuffin saying that PvP is the only thing in the game is your opinion. Other people enjoy the exploration. People who will play PvE will not affect your game as they will, and, are choosing not to play. Objecting to PvE is only affecting those who wish to play in that style.

    I already outlined why exploration isn't really a thing in this game. But there is PvE, I also think I supported my point pretty well about why the game would need a massive core redesign to support PvE servers. And sometimes getting what you think you want isn't always the same.

    Again that is your opinion. Many players love going from island to island and seeing subtle details or just even collecting and selling chests. Also it wouldn't require a massive game redesign as one of their updates included private against public ships. Apart from adding the servers the alteration would be pretty similar. Also what you think isn't what everyone else thinks.

    You're being vague "many players" love this or that. You don't have any hard data to back it up and my points were about the game as is right now. I didn't cite any pretend data on my side, I don't doubt that some players are upset about losing in PVP and because of that want PVE servers only or that some players may enjoy just sailing about. I've seen it firsthand, the second I helped some people win a fight in PVP all of a sudden they loved it.

    But I suspect based on how barebones the game is right now if those players got their way, they'd hate the game and it wouldn't sustain even a meager population. The core of the game is designed around player interaction and conflict, you take that out and what is already an unfinished game would feel soulless.

    Now I'm not against Rare and others coming up with bones to give players that prefer PVE more than PVP something.

    I want...

    • More interesting, developed, varied, and challenging AI encounters.
    • I think vertical progression for PVE only would be fine and dandy and would help with point 1.
    • Better tutorials to enhance matchmaking and more robust in game tools to help report in game directly toxic players or players suspected of cheating.

    But creating PVE only servers would be the absolute death of this game.

    Even though as I've said before, I personally prefer the PVE elements, I think you're right in that a balanced game would be better, how they can truly achieve that I don't know, but its wrong to assume that everyone who is fed up with the way the PVP works feels that way because they lose, that's not really the issue.
    My group i'd say won at least 70% of the proper battles we've encountered, but its the sneaky cowardly shyt we're more fed up with, the spawn killers who manage to get on your boat and kill you and then wont let you fight, and those who attack while you're docked and doing a mission, at a wreck or at an outpost etc.....and then when you actually manage to complete a mission or find something the constant runs to the outpost, tbh it just becomes a very tedious chore and not an enjoyable gaming experience, which is what it should be.

    I'll be honest with you, after one such encounter we sailed around doing the exact same thing to other people in the hope we'd glean some enjoyment from it, we didn't and went off to play something else instead as tbh it just seemed cowardly.

  • @ordainedarron
    I dont even know how to respond. You say ppl are fed up with pvp, but its half of the game. I cant feel pity for anyone that only wants to do one thing. The pvp tension is what the game is based around. Without it the game is just a delivery service.
    If this w*d an older game i wouldnt even be opposed to a pve server. But right now they need to cater to the players who want the whole game. Before the core players get bored and leave.

  • @nwo-azcrack Are you being paid by EA to make sure players are driven away and the game fails?

    If so, they are getting their moneys worth. This game has fallen so far since launch that even the backwards compatible Xbox 360 version of Black Op's 2 has a higher player count on the XB1.

    So good job!!!!

  • @chitown-bear
    Im not suprised. The amount of players always drops after launch and again before a new dlc drops. But i dont think adding a pve server will save the game. Its too barebones right now. And those same ppl will come here complaining of being bored. Not even mentioning Rare having to split its staff to work on a pve server and keep them happy.
    No thanks. Any content need to benefit the game mode they sold.

  • @nwo-azcrack It is no where near normal for a game to lose 95%+ of their players in the first 3 months.

    If this were a normal player drop issue, why are Xbox games that haven't had new content released in almost 2 years holding more players?

    At least Rare seems to realize that the lack of positive social interactions among players is something that needs to be their main focus. I would rather see them separate out the people who don't like the game for its PVP than to change the core game substantially.

  • @eatdamuffin you have also stated vague arguments with 'many' I'm only saying on the amount of threads to enable PvE as an option.

    PvE servers aren't the only way to enable more player friendly gaming. An option to be passive like in gta could be acceptable or even a level system whete someone who's been able to accumalate better weapons such as the sniper cant hurt a player lower than so many levels. These are just some ideas and they aren't perfect but its a way to keep people playing. Some people who oppose PvE don't realise what happens to games when players stop playing. They can't keep their game running.

    Also I agree that the game is barebones and needs more and I'm not saying jump on creating a PvE server straight away. It's something that should be in the works. They need better AI interactions and better 'questing' to go forward. If you read one of my earlier comments in the thread today I comment on what they could do.

    I just don't see why people feel the need to oppose PvE completely.

  • @nwo-azcrack I don't disagree that they need to add more to the core game. They need to add more AI interactions and better 'questing'. As for the tension it could be achieved by AI pirates that you can be boarded or board. I wrote a post on that earlier.

    Secondly the core players may leave and get bored but this game has lost a lot of players to the way PvP is designed in this game. They could expand their core players easily by catering to a wider audience.

    I just don't understand why people are so against the possibility of PvE servers in the future.

  • @ordainedarron I would also like to see them add PVP servers. 6 ships on a map 1/8th the size. There are times I want to log in and just PVP. PVP isn't much fun when you can sail for an hour and not see another ship.

  • @ordainedarron
    If its in the future i dont mind. Just not now when the game is so barebones and hurting for content atm.
    This talk of pve servers is pointless anyway. They have said no multiple times already.
    We are better off sticking to the point of the thread. Which is balance.

  • @chitown-bear
    The hungering deep is a step in the right direction for players to work togeather. At least it seems.
    And u have no proof 95% of the players stopped playing. And even if it was true i wouldnt be suprised concidering there isnt much to do right now

  • @nwo-azcrack I think the changes are too subtle to make much of a difference and the dev's seemed to hint to that fact.

    What we know is that fewer than 100k people play For Honor on the XB1. We also know that For Honor has a higher XB1 player base than SoT according to Microsoft. Make what you will with those numbers when compared to the 1.7M XB1 players at launch.

  • @chitown-bear I do agree with that. They could even make areas PvP so people wanting to battle can go there. There are a lot of ways to fix everyones issues. I quite like the idea of areas that are PvP where you meet and battle and maybe even place wagers on who will win. There could be a lot in this game.

  • @nwo-azcrack well when it comes to balance you need the option of not having to be faced with fighting if you wish it. At least against other players. Perhaps they could make areas PvP and have those areas high risk high reward. Then PvP players could fight there and if someone who isnt PvP fan decides to enter those waters it is their own fault then. They could have better loot quests and if you venture into that area its anyones game. I think that would make a much better platform for everyone.

  • @ordainedarron I think I would disagree with this concept. I would much prefer a separate server than either allowing people to opt out of PVP or allowing PVP only in specific areas. That would impact the way everyone plays the game and would alienate many of the people who remain.

    I enjoy the game the way it is. I don't mind the shoot on sight mentality that permeates the game. I find the aggression enhances the game. Most of my friends won't play the game because of the PVP though so I understand the issue.

    If they insist on not creating separate ways to play the game and still want to draw the anti PVP crowd back into playing they need a hard barrier to limit PVP. My suggestion was to have players quest to get a Privateer's Writ that they could use to initiate PVP. They could control the amount of PVP by adjusting the length of the quest to get the writ. I think this would be workable, but I also think I would enjoy the game less. Hence my preference for separate servers.

  • TL;DR: We don't talk enough because every one is to aggressive and its really hard to make fun bonds with people. Make a Pirate play ground and people will be happy with PVP and PVE over all.

    Reading over the thread, there are a lot of views I can agree and disagree on. I have no problem myself with the PVP aspect (Though I will myself try to steer away from it unless need be) and do agree it adds a certain air to the game. That being said, I don't think there needs to be separate servers for PVP and PVE. Instead, hearkening to other ideas in this thread to balance Exploration and Player combat, I think there should be a central area/island that does not allow PVP but is a hub/gathering place for PVE because the thing that this game lacks is incentive to communicate.

    Communication was big for pirates, and what we have here is a game that's so open, not only are we given the opportunity to blast anyone we see for no reason, but we also have the option to communicate with who we want to. Or at least that is how it SHOULD be, but with no way to tell if people hear you other than getting in broadside range; and with the over all mentality to shoot em all and let Davey Jones sort them out, this option tends to go out the window.

    Enter the Isle at the middle of the map Tortuga! A haven for all pirates on the seas to come, drink and gamble! A neutral territory you can go to to meet other crews and possibly team up with other crews (and maybe backstab outside. Pirates will be Pirates after all.) as well as partaking in some pirate gambling such as knife throwing, chained duels, and other such contests of music, grog, and guts! Spend your gold, if not on gambling, then on Tortuga themed cosmetic items or ship implements (and for those of the Legendary persuasion, maybe some quests to sink some ships(Possibly PC more than likely NPC) as the terror of the high seas).

    Strict neutrality is enforced by crack shot cannoneers and swash bucklers of the highest caliber. Not so good at bringing the ship in to port? For 10 or 15 gold, you can have your ship parked and touched up at the docks for potential quick get-aways with other's gambled gold! It's also said that when a crew is being bothered by some less than friendly pirates and they feel they need to scuttle their ship, your ship will end up here(Though due to the forces that be placing a ship somewhere else, there is a small time restriction before you can sail out (To avoid abusing to fort grief) and regular old getting sunk will teleport you randomly as usual.).

    This I feel would help people interact more and form bonds and friendships in a community that so far has no real way to do so in game. Hell throw achievements in to make it more fun to cooperate. More friendships can be had, alliances made, and the main goal that rare stated they wanted, to promote communication and fun and grow from such an endeavor. Plus, outside of Tortuga, everything stays the same PVP or PVE wise. It's more content, more incentive to get together and communicate, and a chance to breath more life into the game.

    That's my opinion anyway.

  • Funny how most of the arguing here sounds like the debates around crossplay. Anyways.

    I don't think that adding an NPC controlled port will actually fix PvP encounters. Sure you get one relatively safe port. But as soon as it becomes a hub, you get more traffic. If it is safer to cash in there, more people will cash in there. The more people that cash in there, the more it becomes an attractive target to PvPer's or campers. It would exacerbate the problem and not solve it really. So the new port would eventually be avoided by most players and it becomes nothing better than an outpost that happens to be armed.

    The crux of the issue is that you will have people who exploit mechanics that are designed to draw crews together for the intent to satisfy their bloodlust (see skull forts). What really needs to happen is that players need to be willing to work together in the first place. Otherwise anything that has players coming together will end in battle or just gets ignored.

    So what can be done? I really don't know. It mostly comes down to player intent I think and that is outside Rare's control. No mechanic or content can do anything about that.

  • @program-024
    Ahah! I knew I was forgetting something, thank you. Sorry I should have put in there that Tortuga wouldn't be a port you can turn in at. It is strictly a social port of call with gambling and social interaction. Travel there with goods in your ship at your own peril.

    As to why it shouldn't act as a port, and why I think it would help overall with PVP/PVE is the simple fact that as it does not act as a port for goods, it exists merely as a hub for gambling against other pirate and socializing with other pirates. This promotes a place to go and chat with others and have some crazy high jinks without the pressure of strict PVP. People who enjoy PVP would have no benefit to stalk Tortuga because the minute they fire near the island, they would get salvoed by the NPC guards.

    Now yes, this won't deter some PVPers, just like some people will stick a fork in a light socket, wonder why it hurt, laugh, and then do it again; but with a base station to promote a more social experience, I think it would be a step in the right direction.

    Hell, if playing a gambling game of pin the drunken mermaid's tail on the mermaid with you and your crew doesn't promote some laughs and good will, I don't know what will.

  • @william-kenni
    I think it would be better outside the game. In its own server. Any safe area in the game will be abused in some way. Rare has already saif they dont want any safe area. But if it was its own place, like Destinys tower, it could work

  • @william-kenni Glad I was able to help remind you of something.

    I do like the idea of a social hub in principle. As has been suggested elsewhere, it could be a spot for dynamic crewing, fleet building, and simply more stuff to do though I don't see how it facilitates exploration. And as you said, it doesn't strictly eliminate PvP interactions. I can see part of a server banding together to take the port with the port fighting back. That would be an epic battle to witness.

    I think that to help exploring you need more to explore and adding new areas will help with that. But one of the big issues with exploring is the risk of loss even if you have no cargo. No matter how vigilant you are, there is always the possibility of someone sneaking up on you. To help with that there should be better places to hide your ship like Thieves Haven for example. If you park your ship on the inside, no one will know that you are there unless they are going there themselves.

    I would like to see much larger landmasses added into the game. These can have multiple inlets, coves, lagoons, barrier islands, and so on where you can sail in, hide your ship, and explore with much less stress. The only way for people to find your ship would be to actively look for it. Plus you can sort of use them as a way to escape those who chase you. These larger landmasses can have the space for more complex puzzles, ruins, and the like.

  • Exploration is the most difficult thing to keep going, because once you have explored something you have already seen it. It is rare something needs to be explored further because most gamers learn the optimal routes to everything and places of interest. No-one cares if there are islands with a different arrangement of trees and rocks, each island needs to have a purpose to being explored.

    Currently the only exploration you do is going on voyages which become tedious after level 30 (or earlier in some cases) and you often have discovered the main things you need to know within the world. The only spots that are sought out are islands that don't have quests on them (the uncharted islands) but they don't have any reward for stumbling upon them.

    To keep exploration valid and exciting uncharted islands need to have a reward and not just a random chest that is spawned in from a formula. Additionally old islands need to have more secrets to them and ways to interact with them. Say some passages in the caves are blocked off (Sailors Bounty) and only open when certain criteria (maybe a lunar phase or something) are met and inside is a hidden hoard of treasure to reward you. Then a few hours later the place is blocked off again for those who missed the opportunity.

    Now, player combat is a totally different thing. It is required within the game and is always an exciting and changing portion of the game. Tactics, skill, and circumstances change the outcome over and over again which make it hard to control how it should be handled. Player combat needs to be encouraged but not mandatory. It currently is encouraged but not as much as it should be. Small rewards need to be given for playing well against others who attack you without anything on board. If you're minding your own business and are attacked by a new spawn galleon and win nothing happens except you lose time and resources. If you lose you lost everything you had on board.

    Occasional combat just to defend what you own is expected and is not something that should be overly rewarded. What needs to be more rewarded is when a crew is doing exceptional but everyone they sink simply didn't bring anything tangible for the winning crew to take. If a galleon is able to defend itself for 15+ ships in a row without itself sinking that crew should be rewarded for their exemplary performance and skill. If it was at a skull fort and they are against multiple at a time they simply don't have time to resupply and thus the war of attrition does them in often and if it's at the wrong time could cost them everything. Simple commendation rewards for doing so well or gold rewards per kill or per a certain amount of kills/sinks in a row without you dying or being sunk should be given.

    Last, sometimes servers seem so incredibly empty simply because voyages are sending people to far corners of the map. Voyages need to encourage interaction between crews whether it be friendly or aggressive. If a crew has a voyage that takes them to Crooked Masts another crew should have a map that takes them there as well, and the basic rewards of voyages that interact with other players should give bigger payouts.

    TLDR: Exploration needs to have a purpose and needs to constantly be fresh which is harder to maintain. Player combat is a requirement and should be even slightly encouraged due to player interaction and the sake of piracy.

  • I had a problem when doing the merchant missions.
    I got my animals and only had the one outpost to deliver them. However, there was a four man galleon that had just spawned on that outpost. It was way too easy for them to just kill me 10 times, not sell my animals, and would not even sink my boat. I was doing a solo so couldn't do much about it. I just feel like their spawn location was way too gratuitous for them and my delivery location was, unfortunately, a setup.

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