Feedback after 150 matchs new PVP mode Season 8

  • Its Samourai
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    Ahoy,

    I want give you a feedback after more than 150 matches of the new PVP mode proposed by the season 8 update.

    First of all I'm very happy that pvp is back in the game and I thought it would be good to give my opinion to the developers.

    Let's start with the negative points of the game mode, I think in general that MMR has no place in this game. Good players are very rare, it will be much more likely for a beginner to run into a player of equal level than to run into good players.

    This has the negative effect of lengthening the waiting time for good players, we found that after 40 minutes of waiting we could not find any matches. This is not normal and there is no point in playing Sea of Thieves to spend your time in a waiting room. The more you win the longer the waiting list will grow, so even if it is possible to make series of 10 if you are very good, you should clearly spend your day there.

    I take the opportunity to talk about meta and blunderbomb which are absolutely cancer for the game. The skills to maneuver the ship have no interest and the same goes for the gunners. It's literally an anti-game where it's often a matter of who sends a blunderbomb first, preventing the repair, deflecting the ship, applying damage to opponents. It's too much OP we should think about the nerf at least to avoid changing the angle of the boat.

    Then I would like to talk about cheating simply because spawn in 1v1 and see that we are expected by an alliance of 2 ships is quite disadvantageous. Moreover both ships gain experience which makes this situation very advantageous and it can push many players to do this.

    Last negative point, the fights are too long sometimes, when the ships are short of cannonballs the fights drag on sometimes for more than an hour per fight. I think that several solutions can solve this problem. A count-back system with points like in arena. Or, give experience according to the longevity of the fight.

    I hope I have not been too harsh with my criticism now I hope you can improve this game mode because the idea is really cool and it has a potential that is not yet fully exploited in my opinion.

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  • PithyRumble
    Castaway
    Insider

    Experience and Subterfuge will beat Skill most days of the week. Adapt. You know these things are coming.

  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    Good players are rare?

    Skilled fighters are rare when pvpers are hunting pvers in a random environment

    I wouldn't say skilled fighters are rare in this new content.

  • Its Samourai
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @wolfmanbush It's because MMR wants you to meet players of your level. Almost any opponent will seem strong if he has the same level as you. It will never be really "easy", you know?

  • FPG ONslaught
    Marauder
    Insider

    300 Matches? How many wins do you have and what level are you.

  • Its Samourai
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @fpg-onslaught I have largely abused, not being able to modify my post I could not rectify. I must be in the 150-200 more or less.

  • DaBomb139
    Master
    Insider

    I completely agree with this post, with nothing to add but my opinion on fixes (which I’ve stated in other posts ;) )

  • a10dr4651
    Captain
    Insider

    The thing that needs to be considered when speaking about weapon rebalances is, this will affect the wider adventure. Blunderbombs are a necessity for the survival of solo sloopers, start nerfing them just for this part of the game and others will suffer in the wider adventure. Ships ganging up on you is also an intended design if you listen to the deep dive.

  • Magus104
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    If you've done that many matches perhaps you can speak better to the match making. But how often did it tell you that you ranked up in skill? whats you average streak that you're requing as? Because the Devs told streamers to lower the hourglass after a 4 streak for better que times

    I have only gotten 18 wins so far and its only told me my skill has gone up once. It has never gone down. My que time can be anywhere from 1 minute to 2 hours depending. 2 hour wait was on defending. Longest on attack was 45 minutes. All my matches have been as a solo sloop and very often am I coming up against above average obvious arena sweats. So MMR very much has a place in this game. If you look here and all over reddit you see the same story of huge really awful win loss rations. While yes there aren't as many really skilled players at the game which means your potential player pool is smaller streamers already hit lvl 100 in like 3 days. Streak and region seem to play a larger factor in que time than skill level. But as I said you have more experience in the system so you could say better. Are you trying for super high streaks like the streamers were when the devs said "don't do that, it will make your que longer"? because That might invalidate a lot of your argument. Not only do I run into the same high skilled players but I am running into them 3+ times back to back. I get sunk. I get back to an outpost to raise emissary and submerge. I don't waste time stocking my ship I just gogogo to get to the next loss faster.

    I played a bit last night and the que times were very short but it was peak play time in my region. I que up during work hours and my que time is extremely long. So this tells me using a VPN to insure you are in a time zone that is experiencing peak play hours would drastically improve your que times.... if you can play with the higher ping.

    And yea blunderbomb seems to be an issue I imagine they will address this but people have complained about cursed canonballs for years and they finally nerfed them. Though they nerfed them for this update and this mode is meant to last so I am sure this will be addressed. The question is how soon.

    I knew there would be cheats but the amount and the nature of them is more than even imagined. Seems like crews are doing the exploits more than solo sloopers though so that's one benefit to solo sloopin

    I think the waiting tunnel is insanely cool. Adding more variety to it would be really sick. But I also feel it's a huge negative to this system as going on the attack seems to have better que times since it can put you against both defenders and attackers as where if you're only on defense you need to 1. wait for an invading ship and 2. there can't currently be another hourglass battle match occurring on your server. (speculation, but I imagine it's designed this way) and with no timer a match can last an hour or more if both ships are equally matched and determined to win. The fact that the waiting room is basically a punishment for people wishing to attack is odd. With the system being designed around invading and defending I don't really know what they could do to fix this. Maybe since you cant supply up at an outpost while in the waiting room have supplies you can harpoon while waiting under water to stock your ship if you're in a long que? Seems like people are just working on sleeping and sitting milestones which...... yawn

  • ScurvyWoof
    Captain

    You said, “Let’s start off with the negative points” and never talked about the positives of it…

  • DIZEL7979
    Rogue

    The biggest negative is cheaters. Out of dozens of games, only a couple of times were won. More than a thousand hours have been played, but we feel like newcomers with a friend. Make a normal anti-cheat, a normal hit registration system. We were really looking forward to this mode as big pvp fans. But we think we will abandon this mode due to the large number of cheaters.

  • PersonalC0ffee
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    PvP never left the game.

    That line alone speaks volumes.

  • OndrejBakan
    Ship Mate
    Founder

    @dizel7979 Yup, typical cheaters and double gunners - sailor equipment, claims to be new, terrible at naval, dedicated to board and spawncamp. :D I've resorted to losing battles on purpose - XP wise it's better to lose 3 battles in 10 minutes than maybe win 1 40-minute battle.

  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    @dizel7979 said in Feedback after 300 matchs new PVP mode Season 8:

    The biggest negative is cheaters. Out of dozens of games, only a couple of times were won. More than a thousand hours have been played, but we feel like newcomers with a friend. Make a normal anti-cheat, a normal hit registration system. We were really looking forward to this mode as big pvp fans. But we think we will abandon this mode due to the large number of cheaters.

    @ondrejbakan said in Feedback after 300 matchs new PVP mode Season 8:

    @dizel7979 Yup, typical cheaters and double gunners - sailor equipment, claims to be new, terrible at naval, dedicated to board and spawncamp. :D I've resorted to losing battles on purpose - XP wise it's better to lose 3 battles in 10 minutes than maybe win 1 40-minute battle.

    The most skill that has ever been in adventure at one time is right now.

    MANY skilled pvpers are participating and have returned for this content.

    It's largely not cheating it's some of the most skilled pvpers in the game showing more of the skill gap to people that thought they were the best in the game lol.

  • Its Samourai
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @a10dr4651 Vs a good team you need blunder if you cant board . Vs a sloop you need blunder or the fight are eternal, its so easy repair a sloop you are safe so you need blunder... But they have to be nerfed on some aspects like the movement of the boat otherwise what good is being good at the Wheel which is a role that attracts few players.

  • Its Samourai
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @scurvywoof There is potential, the idea is to exploit. That's what I said, I can add to that that the spawn animations are really cool.

  • Its Samourai
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @dizel7979 This is a subject that creates a lot of controversy. We know well the cheats available very easily. Rare also knows them well, I do not know why they remain passive.

  • Its Samourai
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @personalc0ffee The game is a PVPVE in adventure mode. So yes the pure PVP is back.

  • Moogbeard
    Marauder
    Insider

    @magus104 said in Feedback after 300 matchs new PVP mode Season 8:

    If you've done that many matches perhaps you can speak better to the match making. But how often did it tell you that you ranked up in skill?

    Does the game actually notify you when you've ranked up in skill? I've played like 120 matches and my winrate is pretty good and I've never noticed this at all, never seen any of the streamers I watch (including some who have almost no losses) get any kind of sbmm related notification either

  • Boeing7876500
    Seafarer

    300 matches? Assuming that each match is 20 minutes total it would take you at least 100 hours to do 300 matches. (300*20)/60=100 It has been 8 days since launch, so you have spent 12 and a half hours every single day playing SoT, only doing PvP. 100/8=12.5 That is only assuming that every one of your matches is only 20 minutes. Either A, you are a liar, or B, you really need to touch grass, immediately.

  • OndrejBakan
    Ship Mate
    Founder

    @boeing7876500 Well, a) it's not that much, b) it's none of your business.

  • IX Indi XI
    Marauder
    Insider

    IMO Blunderbombs are that unique special that can influence ship angles. Skillfull asset in your arsenal when used correctly, but not spammed and replacing actual main cannonballs...
    But when it comes to knockback and decent chunk of damage, now Times that by a factor of 2 or even 3 cannons shooting blunders non stop gally v gally, it seriously becomes a braindead battle that is not even funny/enjoyable to be part of.

    I feel disgusted being forced to use them back as soon as we see our opponents opening up with a hail of blunders. Feels cheap/no skilled. It's a meta that doesn't deserve to be present like at all.

    The area of effect is massive, it chunks decent health off of you, it influences the ship so much when theres 10 blunders coming in every 15 seconds...

    I have a funny bilge video where I couldn't patch a single hole down below neither could I grate bucket without being thrown around the ship, all I could do is sit there on the opposite side of the galleon to mitigate damage, like an idiot and throw water out through the stairs while getting tossed around with what seemed to be not even lying about 100+ Blunders sent in a minute, whilst my crew was malding at the situation...

    If I encounter any RARE Gallys on the seas doing this PvP mode, im doing just that to prove a point, yes petty..

  • Boeing7876500
    Seafarer

    @ix-indi-xi BRO CAN YOU STOP EDITING EVERY 2 SECONDS????? [mod edit]

  • IX Indi XI
    Marauder
    Insider

    @boeing7876500 Sorry didn't know u got notification for me editing my post for spelling mistakes, feels like a weird thing to implement

  • strangeness
    Commander
    Insider

    The blunderbomb meta and the boarding meta are two signs that PvP needs adjustment.

    I am a firm believer in tools, not rules. But if one loadout is more popular than all others then thays a sign of a balance issue. And if one meta is more popular than others, that's also a sign of a balance issue.

    Blunderbombs are, in themselves, useful. But spamming is clearly an overpowered meta right now, and given the randomness of impact and ship direction change, it makes winning or losing feel more luck-based than skill-based. Which doesn't feel good on the winning side any more than it does on the losing side.

    Boarding is also heavily overused. And again, I don't see a problem with it in itself. But if nobody is winning by pure naval then clearly boarding is imbalanced. And a HHHUUUGGGEEE part of that is from bugs that should now get prioritized to help the new content shine.

    Severe audio bugs and backtrack bugs when servers are under strain, like Blunderbombs above, make it feel more luck based than skill based if a board is successful. You can play everything right and a silent board bug on a sloop is a near death sentence. As is having your well placed ladder-guard shot whiff because the boarder rubber-banded around your shot.

    I've been on the giving end and receiving end of both of these. And it is too common to say it is isolated or to say that it doesn't decide matches, especially if the players are otherwise similarly matched in skill.

    Despite all of its issues, I'm still enjoying the update. But it's doing the content no favors to put on blinders and and pretend these aren't real issues.

  • IX Indi XI
    Marauder
    Insider

    @strangeness said in Feedback after 300 matchs new PVP mode Season 8:

    The blunderbomb meta and the boarding meta are two signs that PvP needs adjustment.

    Blunderbombs are, in themselves, useful. But spamming is clearly an overpowered meta right now, and given the randomness of impact and ship direction change, it makes winning or losing feel more luck-based than skill-based.

    Blunderbombs are not ''random'' when it comes to influencing a ship direction outside of actual bugs that may occur here and there.
    Waves/Direction/speed all play a part in moving a ship with blunders. Which is why sometimes hitting a spot on the gally for example does nothing, yet hitting that exact same spot some time after does. Thats not ''luck'' its just how the physics of the game works, theres a science to it.

    Apart from that I agree, that skill is literally negated if theres 2 of you on cannons rotating blunderbomb spamming which is the meta right now....

    Also the audio, PLEASE split the music and cannonball hit audio separately for love of god.
    Everyone is asking for it and I have yet to come across someone that disagrees outside of just saying no because they somehow know how the game of the code works and ''its not feasible''
    which may be true but hey. RARE has to answer on that topic themselves...

  • GoldsMen
    Master
    Insider

    @boeing7876500 said in Feedback after 300 matchs new PVP mode Season 8:

    300 matches? Assuming that each match is 20 minutes total it would take you at least 100 hours to do 300 matches. (300*20)/60=100 It has been 8 days since launch, so you have spent 12 and a half hours every single day playing SoT, only doing PvP. 100/8=12.5 That is only assuming that every one of your matches is only 20 minutes. Either A, you are a liar, or B, you really need to touch grass, immediately.

    Some matches can be extremely quick. I have seen a number of matches that lasted only a couple minutes at the most back to back. Its best not to assume the worst of some one based on hypothetical numbers.

  • Garbhchu
    Ship Mate

    I've generally preferred the voyages to player combat but was excited to see the ability to choose when and how to fight other players as it can be a very enjoyable part of the game. After only a few matches, though, the Arena seems a golden memory.

    Out of three hours gaming, my crew managed to get into three battles. Wait-times were typically 10-15 min., and then our last battle ended with our scuttling because the opposing players spawncamped us but kept bailing to keep us afloat repeating "hello?" over and over whenever we came back in. Doubtless they and others here will think that's funny, but we didn't. Tempers flared below decks, and the session ended with a great deal of unhappiness. It will be a long time before we commit to the "battle for the sea of thieves" again, but player attitude is only part of the reason.

    Watching Captain Falcore talk about how supporting Flameheart will lead to more interesting stories got me thinking about metagaming in SoT: that is, taking on certain activities in order to manipulate outcomes of these larger events rather than choosing ativities based on what any given player thinks is just good fun. With the "battle" set up as it is, a substantial portion of players in Flameheart's faction will have spent their time as reapers, actively practicing PvP. Knowing that the game is tracking the numbers of wins/losses, I found myself considering siding with Flameheart as a way to limit that faction's wins — my PvP skills are pretty low by comparison. I can out-sail almost any ship with any ship, but when it comes to combat, particularly close-quarter fighting with all the Rabbity Reaper MacHopHops out there, things usually don't go well. Between the clear player-killer mentality, the long wait-times, and the temptation to actively engage in a style of gameplay I don't enjoy (not PvP but metagaming) — let's just say the Arena is a much fonder memory than it was last season.

    The blunderbombing technique is interesting, and it is surprising that no one here has pointed out yet that the skill with the wheel often translates into who gets the first shots out. Ultimately, everyone has the same tech, so it's the technique really that counts. Incidentally, we tried going into one battle with kegs, but the moment we dove underwater our kegs disappeared. That's deliberate I guess ...?

  • IX Indi XI
    Marauder
    Insider

    @garbhchu Yeah you can't transport kegs/loot in the damn, only storage crates.

    1. Im pretty much done siding in these events, We all know damn well Alliance servers influence greatly the outcome, literally thousands of players on the same page grinding one side for hours on end.
    2. I think most PvP'ers at least in my experience really do not care for the most part in the Athena vs Reaper story. Most people are siding with Athena just purely off the better cosmetic rewards in this season. However correct me if I am wrong if Reapers/Flameheart is in deed winning, that would surprise me a bit.
  • strangeness
    Commander
    Insider

    @ix-indi-xi I feel like you made a distinction without making a difference.

    Of course there is a physics engine at play when it comes to Blunderbombs. But given the meta, whether someone lands that shot or has any time to manage waves and wind and consistently control their opponent's shine n reaction is... Implausible. Which is why spamming is meta. And that comes down to who get the lucky bounce first.

    Put another way. I am reminded of the scene from the first Jurassic Park movie where Jeff Goldblum's character is explaining chaos theory with a drop of water running down the hand of a other character. Two drops went two drastically different directions. He even asked her to guess which direction beforehand.

    And then proceeded to explain that it was all "science." variations in skin temperature, hair follicles (which are impacted by heartbeat), and thousands of other variables all add up to create a chaotic result. That doesn't mean there isn't science, but taking a bet on which way the water drop would go would effectively come down to luck due to the variables involved.

    The current blunder spam is, effectively, doing the same thing. So yes, there is a science behind it. The physics cs engine is doing what it is supposed to do. But that doesn't make the overall meta less luck based.

  • IX Indi XI
    Marauder
    Insider

    @strangeness
    Its probably considered ''luck'' for players that don't even realize that such mechanic exists.
    Or do know, but can't be bothered to learn.
    Yeah its negated by spam so you don't have to think carefully of where and when to shoot blunders at their front or back of their ship depending on rotation and waves, and if the ship is on a high or low clam wave etc.
    Which is the point I was trying to get across originally.

    Why bother with that ''science'' when you can just skip it entirely by having two crew members shoot 10 blunderbombs that will seal the deal no matter what.

  • a10dr4651
    Captain
    Insider

    It's also worth noting that these spamming tactics have come about from an influx of supplies from the docks. If we weren't able to buy so many blunderbombs from the docks, they'd probably be less of an issue overall.

  • Blam320
    Legend
    Insider

    @strangeness said in Feedback after 300 matchs new PVP mode Season 8:

    The blunderbomb meta and the boarding meta are two signs that PvP needs adjustment.

    I am a firm believer in tools, not rules. But if one loadout is more popular than all others then thays a sign of a balance issue. And if one meta is more popular than others, that's also a sign of a balance issue.

    Blunderbombs are, in themselves, useful. But spamming is clearly an overpowered meta right now, and given the randomness of impact and ship direction change, it makes winning or losing feel more luck-based than skill-based. Which doesn't feel good on the winning side any more than it does on the losing side.

    Boarding is also heavily overused. And again, I don't see a problem with it in itself. But if nobody is winning by pure naval then clearly boarding is imbalanced. And a HHHUUUGGGEEE part of that is from bugs that should now get prioritized to help the new content shine.

    Severe audio bugs and backtrack bugs when servers are under strain, like Blunderbombs above, make it feel more luck based than skill based if a board is successful. You can play everything right and a silent board bug on a sloop is a near death sentence. As is having your well placed ladder-guard shot whiff because the boarder rubber-banded around your shot.

    I've been on the giving end and receiving end of both of these. And it is too common to say it is isolated or to say that it doesn't decide matches, especially if the players are otherwise similarly matched in skill.

    Despite all of its issues, I'm still enjoying the update. But it's doing the content no favors to put on blinders and and pretend these aren't real issues.

    I feel like the problem isn't that boarding is too powerful, but that actual ship-to-ship combat is unrewarding. It's very, very easy for coordinated crews to keep their ships afloat, meaning use of tools such as Cursed Cannonballs or actions such as boarding are all but absolutely necessary to achieve victory, due to their ability to disrupt the enemy's ability to repair and bail.

  • Moogbeard
    Marauder
    Insider

    @strangeness said in Feedback after 300 matchs new PVP mode Season 8:

    The blunderbomb meta and the boarding meta are two signs that PvP needs adjustment.

    Boarding is also heavily overused. And again, I don't see a problem with it in itself. But if nobody is winning by pure naval then clearly boarding is imbalanced. And a HHHUUUGGGEEE part of that is from bugs that should now get prioritized to help the new content shine.

    the "boarding meta" is kind of a meme. boarding is effective and is an essential part of the game but ladderguarding is like the easiest thing to do. people mostly get boards after naval pressure or when there's a serious skill gap. In both cases it's fine, the latter just makes a lot of players salty and tends to result in them complaining about a "boarding meta" as if they wouldn't have lost to the other crew anyways.

    changes to the game that make it so you can win by pure naval (you already can but it is admittedly very hard) would probably break pvp in ways we can't even imagine- I could see it destroying solo slooping especially and forcing people to play even more passively than they already do

  • A CRY1NG ORPHAN
    Lord
    Insider
    Founder

    @a10dr4651 Agreed, just removing the option to buy throwables from the captaincy quarters would drastically reduce this meta. Feels like they've "replaced" the curse cannons as well in barrels

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