Encountered toxicity, RECORD IT or Rare will do nothing

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    Let’s talk about how people in the community can 100% violate Code of Conduct and Pirate Code without any ramifications or discipline, because why, I don’t know. Oh and by the way, you cannot call out those pirates on the forum to warn others of their toxicity because that is considered a “witch hunt”, but hey it’s alright according to Rare to be openly discriminated against. Today, my crewmate and I were being harassed by a duo sloop crew. This crew came rolling up on us while we were fishing. To better position ourselves to fight, we dropped sails and filled pockets, when over the in-game comms, we are called a derogatory term (multiple times), so I decided to run and let them waste their time. I even let them know when I was boarding to stop that type of language because it is a violation of the code of conduct, giving fair warning. After an hour, yes an hour, of chasing us and us killing them repeatedly, we decided to start a tale tall. When we were going through the portal, these guys yelled “Eff you, you effing C (word)”, yes I am the only female pirate in this fight.

    In utter disbelief I talked through the incident with my crewmate, who is a new pirate, and failed to record what happened because Xbox only allows up to a minute afterwards to be captured. Once we were through the portal, I submitted a report player ticket to Rare. What I got back as a response was disappointing to say the least. “There is insufficient evidence to support your claim”. Now keep in mind, there is NOT a requirement to record all incidents, it is just to “support your claim”. Folks, make sure that you record your sessions the minute someone starts being toxic or else there won’t be much of a case, despite any other people involved that could be contacted.

    I have played this game, near daily, for over a year. It’s been absolutely amazing, but today made me think twice about putting as much time into a game and company that finds it appropriate to openly discriminate against others in their game. At minimum, these guys could have received a suspension, but nope, Rare said, it’s okay to discriminate against people by taking no action at all.

    Now before you all jump my case about “it’s a game, get gud, brush it off, stop whining, etc.”, what if I was a kid playing this game? Would any of us want some random guy yelling obscenities at kids? I am sure not, but to even think that people get this tilted at a video game, is beyond my comprehension.

    This is not only a call out to Rare to be better about enforcing your own Code of Conduct / Pirate Code, but to the community, be better. Yea, it’s a pirate game, but it’s just that…a GAME. It’s not something to be taken so seriously that you act like a fool.

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  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    Unfortunate experience but correct outcome given the context

    A system of accountability based on strong evidence is necessary for a just system that can maintain trust within the community.

    If people are punished without strong evidence the system falls apart and becomes a system of revenge and social pressure.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @wolfmanbush I could understand that if it was a requirement of the reporting system. If video evidence is needed to substantiate the claim (despite having another witness to the incident), then that should be listed in the reporting rules.

  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    @jonipsy6008 said in Encountered toxicity, RECORD IT or Rare will do nothing:

    @wolfmanbush I could understand that if it was a requirement of the reporting system. If video evidence is needed to substantiate the claim (despite having another witness to the incident), then that should be listed in the reporting rules.

    your report will still likely hold value

    people that talk like that don't last long and that's because 1. they regularly talk like that and 2. they will get repeatedly reported from random people that end up on random servers with them which allows a bit of a case to be built.

    This means that even though not everyone will end up with video evidence the combined efforts of people that go through the report process can assist those that review the reports in figuring out who is causing trouble and who isn't

    As long as your report is accurate it does hold some value even if it doesn't immediately lead to consequences from the lack of evidence.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @wolfmanbush I can completely understand that there is power in numbers, but we cannot say that it's acceptable to violate CoC and Pirate Code. Like I said in my original post, even a suspension; a day or a week, would at least send a message that toxicity and discrimination are not acceptable behaviors. Doing something is always better than doing nothing.

    I appreciate your commentary though for trying to be empathetic as well as diplomatic. It is definitely a nice perspective to have on the forum!

  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    @jonipsy6008 said in Encountered toxicity, RECORD IT or Rare will do nothing:

    @wolfmanbush I can completely understand that there is power in numbers, but we cannot say that it's acceptable to violate CoC and Pirate Code. Like I said in my original post, even a suspension; a day or a week, would at least send a message that toxicity and discrimination are not acceptable behaviors. Doing something is always better than doing nothing.

    I appreciate your commentary though for trying to be empathetic as well as diplomatic. It is definitely a nice perspective to have on the forum!

    Not if there is not accuracy and without the evidence there cannot be accuracy in punishment or accountability.

    I could accuse you of something and someone else could accuse me of something, without building a strong case based on evidence it's just punishment without accuracy.

    This doesn't mean that you are not being honest and it doesn't mean that those reviewing the accusation think you are being dishonest it just means there isn't enough to justify enforcement based on accusation.

    This is something that feels frustrating right now in your situation but it is ultimately something that protects you from false and/or malicious accusation through the reporting system.

    The person's friends could report you and say that you did something during that incident, a just system would protect you from that retaliation reporting

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @wolfmanbush Again, I won't argue your points, but I will lend the same sentiment that if there is power in numbers and multiple people involved, why is there not any action taken to validate the claim by requesting those accounts independently to form the final decision? Having multiple people witnessing an event, to your point, is the power in numbers, but when these guys do it again, maybe something will happen. Also, I am not daft enough to understand the sheer volume of reports that are filed and expect that every claim is followed up with the utmost consideration. The moral of the story, Rare needs to add video evidence as a requirement and the community will need to follow suit.

  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    @jonipsy6008 said in Encountered toxicity, RECORD IT or Rare will do nothing:

    @wolfmanbush Again, I won't argue your points, but I will lend the same sentiment that if there is power in numbers and multiple people involved, why is there not any action taken to validate the claim by requesting those accounts independently to form the final decision? Having multiple people witnessing an event, to your point, is the power in numbers, but when these guys do it again, maybe something will happen. Also, I am not daft enough to understand the sheer volume of reports that are filed and expect that every claim is followed up with the utmost consideration. The moral of the story, Rare needs to add video evidence as a requirement and the community will need to follow suit.

    Different people will submit different evidence. Someone that regularly acts a certain way will encounter people that gather evidence or just happen to have access to some because of one resource or another

    Telling people to record isn't a problem as a suggestion but it won't change anything significantly, there are people that have talked about toxicity for years in SoT that still refuse to go through the process of gathering video evidence even though they could if they wanted to.

    If you truly want to battle toxicity you can do it through your own actions and how you handle these moments outside of reporting.

    There is nothing stronger than an individual that treats those around them well and focuses on being there for others and not putting energy into the negative. Far more positive impact on the community than any outcome from the reporting system could ever create. It requires moving on from things, which can be a difficult habit to form but once it is formed all that energy can be put into creating a garden of community around you that wants to chase decency based on being inspired by your leadership.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @wolfmanbush this is where we will differ. It's far easier to be an outsider to the situation and not directly impacted, to say "move past it", "make sure your actions are better than what you have encountered", etc. I have and will always be respectful and helpful to anyone on the seas, it's in my nature, but I don't need to justify myself. Once I have fully processed the incidents from today, maybe I can just "let it go and be better", but for now, I will continue to use the platform we have to ensure that others who encounter issues with toxicity know what to do if they truly want change / action.

  • WolfManbush
    Lord

    @jonipsy6008 said in Encountered toxicity, RECORD IT or Rare will do nothing:

    @wolfmanbush this is where we will differ. It's far easier to be an outsider to the situation and not directly impacted, to say "move past it", "make sure your actions are better than what you have encountered", etc. I have and will always be respectful and helpful to anyone on the seas, it's in my nature, but I don't need to justify myself. Once I have fully processed the incidents from today, maybe I can just "let it go and be better", but for now, I will continue to use the platform we have to ensure that others who encounter issues with toxicity know what to do if they truly want change / action.

    I've heard a lot of things directed my way over the years, it's pretty easy to get caught up in it, that's why people say mean/hurtful things, to get people caught up in them.

    I've also said a lot mean and hurtful things

    I know what it's like, a lot of people know what it's like, many have gone through it at one time or another

    I'm just sharing what I find to be an effective, productive, and positive approach to these situations.

  • FarthestSun
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    If you go to Xbox settings and Preferences, Capture & Share, change clip resolution to 720p you can get up to 3min clips and if you have a newer “Series” Xbox controller you can press/hold the share button to instantly clip what has happened in the past 3min. This is a fast and effective way to gather Video evidence without taking you out of the game to help support any future reports or claims you may have…

  • ParrotLord6426
    Marauder
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008 sagte in Encountered toxicity, RECORD IT or Rare will do nothing:

    @wolfmanbush I can completely understand that there is power in numbers, but we cannot say that it's acceptable to violate CoC and Pirate Code. Like I said in my original post, even a suspension; a day or a week, would at least send a message that toxicity and discrimination are not acceptable behaviors. Doing something is always better than doing nothing.

    I appreciate your commentary though for trying to be empathetic as well as diplomatic. It is definitely a nice perspective to have on the forum!

    Simply put: No. @wolfmanbush is absolutly right here. And, no offense, the longer i read your answers about wanting punishment from accusation alone, the less I believe your story is real.
    Even if you have a friend to back your story up, dont u realize the flaw? Its a friend, biased, no neutral. The only thing valid is a) evidence, or b)multiple claims across different servers/people who have nothing do to with each other (and even then if you are out to really harrass someone, u might just instrumentalize your friends to report him too on different "occasions" without having met the certain pirate again for real). im not saying u are, im just saying, thats the issue.

    Now, ofc toxic players can get annoying. On the other hand, they are part of humanity, if my child encounters this i would maybe talk with him/her about it, and otherwise take it as experiences about life and certain people - since they simply do exist, no matter SoT or somewhere else.
    Also the report system is really bad right now, its in no way state of the art, or state of whats possible. To me it really seems like Rare just doesnt care apart from lip service. The report system makes you do the work Rare should put in themselves to keep their game clean. If you would critizise that i could understand you a lot better.

    But asking for punishment just because u claim something without backing it up (even more so when u know how the system works currently, and what u SHOULD do in that situation, heck, u even know apparently how to record someone with the xbox live feature (? - at least it appears like that from ur statement, no offense), I cannot really understand. You are askin for witch hunts to be legalized, thats it, sorry, again, no offense, just my humble opinion.

  • FaceYourDemon
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    Not sure about the meaning of this post, if its about being too lazy to bring evidence then its a dumb post.

    If its about wanting to improve the reporting system like some games do, like automatically record backwards after the report, sure.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @parrotlord6426 you have no right to invalidate someone's experience. Obviously, you failed to read the entire post because the moral of the story is to record so that we can start addressing the toxicity. Sorry, but your post here is not only extremely insensitive, but part of what's wrong with the community.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @faceyourdemon Your post is also extremely insensitive as well. Maybe read the entire post before you try to tell someone they are lazy. It's okay to have more than a minute to think through the situation that happened, but you basically are saying "well, you were too lazy to record, so you deserve what happened to you". I will say, you are also what is wrong with this community.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @farthestsun thank you for actually posting something helpful! I will be sure to change my settings. Unfortunately, I didn't know that the capture button would also record, but I also didn't anticipate being harassed while playing a video game either.

  • spinningpeanut
    Sailor

    The biggest issue is we shouldn't NEED to gather evidence for them. We have two decades worth of online games where not a single game created by a large company has failed to add an in game reporting system. Rare and by extension Microsoft have failed the community by not implementing a way for us to effectively report people. This is basic online gaming 101. For some reason they just refuse to help the community.

    I was kegged on the dock just about to sell and was rammed by a sloop and brig, one flying the pride flag. Even with the recording feature, just ignore that they don't have in game reporting nor any evidence that supports them being able to go back into prior sessions to find out who these people could have even been. As I was dying I heard them begging to sniff my d- and saying they wanted to slurp my hairy b-. So even with this lazy lack of attention to reporting if I were to submit a video of what happened there would be no names on the screen to indicate who said those horrible things to me.

    Recently they celebrated 30 million users. With that many people who pay for the game in various ways why don't we have an in game reporting system where they can use staff tools to view the users in the situation, you know, like literally every single other online game no matter how big or small? If a company refuses to give you the tools to protect yourself and other users, why can't I get a refund for them failing to deliver a safe product to use? When the players are allowed to threaten your actual life for sinking them, when predators can target lgbtq, women, and kids, and everyone gets away with it because they do not provide an effective reporting system, the company has broken their promise to the players and delivered a faulty product.

  • FaceYourDemon
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    @jonipsy6008 I have read your post, I have also read the convo with wolf.

    Sorry

  • ParrotLord6426
    Marauder
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008 i have any right i want to invalidate ur statement lol. How can u even say that while in the same time u want YOUR statement to be believed simply because "dude, trust me"
    More and more u appear just not-trustworthy to me.
    And, sorry, but, "insensitive" ? Maybe think about ur statements and what u are trying to do here once again, because you are really insensitive yourself, insensitive to fair laws and regulations, in my humble opinion at least.
    Innocent untill proven guilty is still the most fair course of action here. Everything else is just hearsay and witch hunts being legalized.
    Your claims of wanting punishment without needing any prove are whats wrong in my opinion, but obviously that critique is too hard to handle. That attitude now also appears really toxic to me, sorry.

    "didnt anticipate being harassed while playing a video game" - did u just start videogames yesterday? It sucks, but its part of gaming since gaming is a thing, which is like, 25 years now.
    Do i want to say its ok? - no ofc not. DO i like it? Still no, not at all. I want a fair report system, and i have asked for it alrdy multiple times myself.
    But u dont ask for that, do you. U ask for simple claims to be valid enough so proving it is not necessary. And thats simply the most wrong way in my opinion.
    Sorry but - not trustworthy, and the more u go on, the worse u make it.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @parrotlord6426 how about stop verbally attacking the person who posted and trying to smear their character and actually address the problem. OH wait, you can't because you are part of the problem. Nothing that you have posted addresses how we can fix the reporting, how to combat toxicity or anything useful.

    The sad thing, people could get a warning the next time they log in, "a complaint was filed, please follow the CoC and if additional complaints are filed, further action will be taken". These are the types of suggestions that are helpful.

    Go troll elsewhere because I could careless about your toxic opinion.

  • ParrotLord6426
    Marauder
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008 sorry, but, if critique on your claims and demands appear like a personal attack to you....

    And are you really asking me now to believe you and smear someone else because you said so? Now THATS what i call a toxic attitude. I will refrain from answering here anymore because dealing with bullies is not helpful, and obviously you have no interest in reflecting upon the situation yourself. You simply want to be believed just because you said so.

    But in case u didnt realize it: I feel like you are bullying everyone who dissagress with you right now, here in this thread. Calling us the "problem" now because we dont simply follow your unproven claims. You can call me anything you want but I see only one Bully here right now.

  • ParrotLord6426
    Marauder
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008 You want to adress the problem with toxicity and report system? Then do that, instead of asking for witch hunts to be legalized and people to be believed without any proof whatsoever.

    Do you really want my opinions on the issue? Fine, but i fear in the next post you are gonna attack me for "mansplaining" it to you. Anyway

    • "Toxicity" - Solution: Deal with it, Learn to not take it so personal, learn to ignore it. The world is many colors, people are many colors, some are nice, some are not. YOu will never get a world with only friendly behaviour, this is simply not realistic, not in real life, and not in a game. Additionally: "Toxicity" is often simply a personal feeling, meaning something different to different people. For example, i experience you as really toxic yourself throughout your whole thread, in your answers to everyone who dissagress with you. You probably experience like you are doing just fine. Thats how its a personal feeling. And you cant force everyone to adhere to one persons feelings, if you do that you will have dictatorship, not democracy. So, the better solution is to: Learn to deal with it, learn to outgrow it, learn to ignore and let go.

    • "Report system" - Rare should implement an ingame report feature, that would make it more easy to report in the first place. Rare should also implement an AI algorythm who automatically scans for negative toxic behaviour and words, and warn/punish people accordingly. That would probably also help. And if Rare would then maybe also save the according log files like chat etc. for a certain amount of time, then it would give the accused player a possibility to fight back on it. In the end, there need to be a certain amount of moderators, real human beings, scanning and checking for the system to work and also adressing appeals to the reports. All this is state of the art in other online games, i think it would help if implemented properly.

    We where/are discussing this very issue in another post the last week, if you would mind to look for it, instead of simply looking for a way to vent? :)

    Cheers, waiting for your "stop mansplaining" comment now lol

  • Thorumsu
    Master
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008

    I will try to be more like a person unlike that Parrot Lord dude.

    What happened to you is really bad. A part of the community likes to do these because... I dont know really, but they do.

    Now onto your suggestion...

    So, from what I am understanding, you are saying that you experienced this horrible event but did not manage to record it. And you said someone who got reported without evidience should at least be "suspensed" for like a day because doing something is better than doing nothing at all??

    This is what your main post says at least. Also you said that to Wolf too.

    You see, I believe that you dont have any bad intentions. HOWEVER, you have NO IDEA how abusable this sytem would be.

    Reporting system is fine as it is in my opinion. Everyone I reported with solid video evidience got banned.

    Imagine this, you sank a ship for their loot but the other day, you wake up to a suspension. Because the guys you sunk reported you for toxicity to get back at you. Especially if you attack an alliance server.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @thorumsu thank you for actually being reasonable like Wolf. A day in the grand scheme, in my mind, is not the end of the world, but I get your point. To my later post after lord whatever kept bashing my character, even a warning the next time you log in will at least drive a point.

    All reporting systems will be exploited and I get that. I'm not asking for perfection, but what I am asking for is to make video evidence a requirement, which it's not. A player would not be able to submit a report without it being uploaded. I wouldn't have bothered to send anything if I knew video evidence was required.

  • JoNipsy6008
    Ship Mate

    @parrotlord6426 I don't have to say anything about you mansplaining to me because you already stated it yourself, thank you for at least being obvious about it. Oh and my original post already addressed folks like you "get gud, stop whining, blah blah blah". You are just noise at this point and your posts are not worth additional commentary.

  • BurnBacon
    Champion
    Insider

    Let’s talk about how people in the community can 100% violate Code of Conduct and Pirate Code without any ramifications or discipline, because why, I don’t know.

    Let’s not and just do the normal thing everyone does in video games that offers a report system.

    Do what needs to be done and move on. No video game is without toxic. But for this type of game, the word toxic is used wrong so much it become tiring to read these posts.

    What is viewed as toxic behavior is never toxic. 9/10 anyways.
    Makes me wonder how kids today survive online games to begin with when things don’t go there way when it part of the game.

    Report a player for blowing up your car in GTA?
    Player tbags you in a halo match because you lost a 1v1?
    Pirate sinks and steals from another thieving pirate.

  • Captain Coel
    Captain
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008 video evidence isn't required. But evidence is. I've used screenshots of what has been said or of inappropriate named pets/ships.

    Expected punishment based on an accusation alone is just a little crazy. False reporting would go through the roof, people would end up woth your warnings or the 1 day bans that you claim "aren't a big deal". Imagine being reported by a sore loser before a community day or a gold & glory weekend and having that ruined because action was taken against you because another player said "he/she was mean". That would be terrible.

    Yes you need evidence. But a video is not required, it is helpful though.

  • ParrotLord6426
    Marauder
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008 "a day suspension for a report with nothing but my accusation is not the end of the world to me" - i sincerly hope it happenes to you, better sooner then later. When the day comes i will be happy to simply report you because i dont like you, and watch u get suspended.
    Some people need to feel themselves what they demand in order to realize how toxic it is what they say. And friendly words for people like u do nothing in my opinion, nothing but encourage you to continue your toxic, self righteous attitude.

  • HeyltsMeTC
    Commander
    Insider

    I think ultimately the point has been made; There will be bad apples and they do go unpunished due to some circumstance. There are ways to clip, Windows key + Alt + G on PC, and obviously you can clip on Xbox (don't play console, so i won't pretend to know exactly how). I agree that it should be an innocent until proven guilty system, people view all SORTS of things in this game as toxic, from actual awful voice comms (my condolences for your experience btw) all the way to just playing the game and doing PVP. If you could be reported with no evidence, and receive warnings, or even suspensions, it would be chaotic for all player's.
    A better ingame tracking would certainly be nice, but with the way the game is structured, i can understand why the report system works the way it does. AI can be subject to error or being over-censoring, and you can't effectively "moderate" every server, or every voice comm.

    I think the only thing i want to address is:

    so I decided to run and let them waste their time. - After an hour, yes an hour, of chasing us

    This to me, is just willingly putting yourself in a negative situation. When people have loot, or need to sell something, i understand running as a chance to sell, but when you run JUST to waste someones time, it just wastes your own time too, and opens you up to negative experiences such as these. I am in the "Scuttle is your friend" camp, and that if you get put in a bad situation you don't think there's a way out from, scuttle and hop servers, it does everyone a world of good. You mentioned portal hopping at the end, in future, with this kind of scenario, i would recommend that, or scuttling, just be your first choice of action. Better not to open yourself up to potential toxicity and just do yourself a boon and save your own time!

  • BlueStar0316
    Marauder
    Insider

    @jonipsy6008 technically speaking the pirate code states all crew are equal thus rendering the captain update as hypocritical. Also the pirate code states all conflict will be settled upon the waves, so technically every island is supposed to be PvP free safe havens.

  • HeyltsMeTC
    Commander
    Insider

    @robby0316 The Pirate Code has more nuance to it than that. It's not actually literal, especially those two, they're a bit lost in translation.

    • "All crew are equal"
      This is not entirely meant in a purely gameplay sense. It's meant as "no matter who or what you are, all on the waves are of equal standing". The context on the official code is: "Let each crewmate be respected as equal and free to follow their own bearing, speak openly and vote in affairs of the voyage."

    • "Conflicts will be settled upon the waves"
      Again, not purely gameplay based, this means that any conflict and antagonism stay in the game, and be done in a respectful way. You don't DM people afterwards outside the game, nor do you instigate witch hunts. The official context: "None shall quarrel or overly dissent against another crew, but let every engagement be settled by sword, pistol and good seamanship." It doesn't imply islands are safe zones, it simply means you don't take your quarrels out of the game, and when you do have conflict, you do it respectfully with what the game has to offer.

  • BlueStar0316
    Marauder
    Insider

    @silentkiller646 I agree it’s more just like a guideline than rules. I’m not a stickler for the pirate code I was just letting OP know that if he wants to cherry pick certain aspects of the pirate code so he can start a witch hunt, that technically the pirate code is broken just by playing normally.

  • HeyltsMeTC
    Commander
    Insider

    @robby0316 Oh right, understood. I believe the Pirate Code and Xbox TOS in general are the two things Rare go by when judging reports, so while they're "guidelines" they do have repercussions if you are found breaking them. But the Pirate Code is definitely a good guideline to follow for fair and fun gameplay, from all parties including OP. (Also, OP stated they were a she, not a he!)

  • BlueStar0316
    Marauder
    Insider

    @silentkiller646 the introduction of the Reaper Bones has kind of hazed the Pirate Code in terms of how strictly Rare wants it to be followed. Don’t get me wrong, name calling and using profanity is definitely not okay regardless of Pirate Code or not. But whether or not Rare should enforce punishment based on not following the Pirate Code is kinda a grey area now since the Reapers literally disown the Pirate Code and their new Pirate Code can be found at some SeaForts.

    I just don’t think that PvP is toxic, yes it’s annoying if you’re just fishing and someone comes along and sinks you. But I wouldn’t consider that a reportable offense.

    Cussing at someone and using profanity or derogatory terms is toxic though.

    I don’t role play but for RP sake, if someone is a hardcore Reaper Role player, the Pirate code is essentially garbage to them and since Rare encourages Role Play, and Rare did create the Reaper Bones, to some extent Rare is a neutral party when it comes to “breaking the Pirate code” considering they created the Pirate code and created the faction that defies the Pirate code aka reapers.

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