PvP Balance and Incentives

  • AktnBastion
    Rogue
    Insider

    Just through I'd throw out a suggestion that I think might help a bit with the PvP and PvE problems and in-fighting that still plagues the game. The thought is this:

    Engaging in meaningful PvP requires both parties to have at least some stake. Currently, the only part of the PvP system that actually incentivizes that is the Reaper Emissary mechanic through the potential loss of of an emissary flag. The rest of the game encourages PvPers to engage with as low as possible minimum stake which is....nothing. Literally nothing except the time required to find a victim.

    To that end, I'd suggest something along the following: A large PvP damage debuff/disable if you do not have some treasure on board (would probably need to exclude supply crates and other empty crates). This could also in theory be paired with some sort of damage resistance/invulnerability but would need to have some sort of checks put in place so dumping treasure couldn't be used for combat exploits. For strong PvP crews, this shouldn't take too long to meet the requirements of. For weak PvP crews, it means that you can't just attrition someone to death by consuming all their supplies without at least providing them with some sort of reward for killing you.

    Second: The PvP cycle on a server thrives best when all players are also encouraged to pick up PVE rewards as well. Someone who dedicates time to extracting value from the PVE portion of the game should always be guaranteed at least a small return for their efforts, even if they sink. To that end, I'd suggest that whichever crew first loads a treasure onto their boat should be guaranteed at least 10% of the payout when its turned in. This allows chests gained through PvP to still be a large windfall, but makes sure PVE players are never left completely empty-handed and might actually encourage them to risk some PvP knowing that even if they lose, they'll still make progress.

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  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    Tools, not rules.

  • AktnBastion
    Rogue
    Insider

    @targasbr

    Correct, which is why I'm saying that the tools need to be altered to create a healthier game state. As you say, people will always attack for whatever reason so long as the ability to do so is supported in game. Trying to enforce a code of conduct is pointless if the game's "tools" (it's mechanics) support a different way. The game is, at it's core, a PvP game, but it's a PvP game motivated by PvE elements to provide "thrill".

    The PvP game suffers when one side has no stakes. If one side has nothing to lose and one side has everything to lose, you just encourage one side to always try to run and one side to hunt rather than opening up a space for people's greed to overtake their good sense.

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @aktnbastion said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @targasbr

    Correct, which is why I'm saying that the tools need to be altered to create a healthier game state. As you say, people will always attack for whatever reason so long as the ability to do so is supported in game. Trying to enforce a code of conduct is pointless if the game's "tools" (it's mechanics) support a different way. The game is, at it's core, a PvP game, but it's a PvP game motivated by PvE elements to provide "thrill".

    The PvP game suffers when one side has no stakes. If one side has nothing to lose and one side has everything to lose, you just encourage one side to always try to run and one side to hunt rather than opening up a space for people's greed to overtake their good sense.

    Players who don't like PvP run with or without reason, they don't need encouragement to do so. The same is true for players who like PvP, they don't need any incentive to attack other ships. The magic of the game is precisely that there are no rules about it.

  • AktnBastion
    Rogue
    Insider

    @targasbr

    If this is actually true, then there is no reason not to implement it as it will change nothing for the PvPers except discourage bad PvPers from attritioning good ones to death and will make the PVE players happier. I don't think it is true, but let's say you're right. Still nothing to lose.

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @aktnbastion said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @targasbr

    If this is actually true, then there is no reason not to implement it as it will change nothing for the PvPers except discourage bad PvPers from attritioning good ones to death and will make the PVE players happier. I don't think it is true, but let's say you're right. Still nothing to lose.

    I see several reasons for not implementing rules on who should and should not initiate combat.
    If I want to set sail and attack the first ship I see without even getting resources, that's fine.
    If I want to attack another ship even with 5 FoF on my ship, that's fine too.
    If I want to run for hours without anything on my ship, that's fine too.
    Sea of ​​Thieves is freedom.

  • Metal Ravage
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    The main incentive that comes with the premise of pirates' adventure is playing the game. SOT is a pvepvp sandbox game where the choice of how to play it is yours. Don't try to change SOT through arbitrary rules that prevent free play.

  • Captain Coel
    Captain
    Insider

    @aktnbastion PvE players and PvP players do not deserve to be happy in this game. They are playing half of game. Unless you are a PvPvE player this game should not cater to you. Anything that makes the lives of one side of that coin happier over that of the other side is a bad idea.

  • CotU42
    Lord
    Insider

    @aktnbastion

    If you lose your treasure you shouldn't get compensation for it. Part of games means that loss is an acceptable outcome, you don't need to make progress and losing is ok. You got some renown, commendations progress, experience... it isn't like you are left empty handed. The mentality that you should never really lose in a game is not something that is healthy, if you never have lows, the highs mean far less. Want to create exciting experiences, then you need to accept that the flip side is part of the game.

    Placing arbitrary rules on people on when they can engage in PvP is also not ideal, good PvP crews tend to hoard the loot till they sell and hop on or quit. Those that run aren't going to turn because there is loot aboard the enemies vessels; I am a lazy pirate and so is the crews I sail with, our treasure is all up in the front clearly visible and people still run. Whether people fight or not is subjective based on their mood, style, etc.

    Simply stated, the suggestions are not going to solve an actual problem. Not to mention, most of the time the PvP people are one and the same as the PvE people... just at different times.

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @aktnbastion the mechanic has worked fairly well for 4 years matey.
    I was discussing the other night that I wonder how endemic the "PVP and PVE problems" actually are, other than the echo chamber of this forum?

    I have sailed now since before release, with only a 12 month break. I sail fairly regularly, at different times of the day, on different types of server (XBOX only, crossplay etc), as well as on different regions (I sometimes join US servers).
    I have never had more than 1 or 2 truly toxic encounters. I also very rarely see PVP action in a session.

    A lot of what you request simply breaks the game balance entirely towards a PVE oriented crowd. I play true PvEvP and would hate to think one side gets a buff simply because they aren't carrying loot, or that you gain gold from lost loads.

    You live by the code and die by the code. There is no benefit to me in having lots of gold: the journey, the sessions, the friends and the simple pleasure of being on the waves for me are enough.

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @kingcrayontv you both completely misrepresent the playerbase, as well as talking about falling player numbers with what evidence exactly?

    I am a day one player and beta stress tester and I have never been "bored and just want to blow up ships". There is absolutely no depending toxicity in the form of spawn camping or abuse of any other kind in the game - report that when you see it as a matter of urgency here.

    Rare make it very clear in any and all material that this is a sandbox adventure. In fact on their about the game page they state:

    A WORLD OF REAL PLAYERS

    Sea of Thieves takes place in a shared world, and while you’re by no means guaranteed to encounter other player crews every time you set sail, plenty of fresh opportunities for adventure will present themselves when you do.

    Not every encounter will be friendly, but willing crews are free to team up against dangerous Skeleton Lords and other fierce foes, swap tales of their exploits in the taverns and co-operate to earn some of the trickier Commendations.

    Apologies for a negative tone, or for defending what you believe to be indefensible, but this is an established game, with an established playerbase.

  • Minhoca SoT
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @kingcrayontv Chasing a ship is not toxic behavior, it's part of the game, just like sinking other ships. They also have no way of knowing you don't have anything on the ship until they board you, if you're running, you possibly do. If you had nothing to lose, scuttle. Toxic behavior is swearing, attacking your own crew just for trolling, etc.

    I've been playing since before the game was released, I don't just do one type of gameplay. The game has a lot of content, but unfortunately players prefer the easy way, server alliances, do everything they have to do within a few months and then stop playing saying that the game has no content. If everyone played correctly the players would stay in the game.

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @kingcrayontv right - just stop with the playerbase comments, as the only people who know this are Rare. They also regularly update us with player counts. For example last October the game boasted the milestone of 25,000,000 players. Add to this that you, yourself are a new player on the seas, which leads me to believe the game is still drawing in Pirates.

    With regards to your experiences. Sadly these are your experiences. Twitter, Discord, heck, the game itself seem to show me that you are the exception that proves the rule that the game isn't as toxic as it is made out to be. Heck, Community Day alone showed lots of interaction, as does the constant stream of charity events, community games and competitions, not to mention SoTFest...

    The thing I personally am tired of in this community is people coming in after a bad experience, or when the game doesn't meet their expectations and saying the game is toxic or dying.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Champion
    Insider

    @kingcrayontv said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @sshteeve and im glad that you are not these people but at this point from the snapshot of a week of dealing with this from my experience you are the exception that proves the rule, not the other way around. im new and haven't been able with about 65 hrs in the game become immersed in the game, its history, story and world because ive spent a majority of that time dodging bored pvpers with no one to chase other than me and willing to commit 60-75 entire minutes to it to the point that i have to take all of that time and throw it out the window changing servers to avoid these people.

    Props for being a new player and being able to escape a more experienced crew for an hour+ ...

    If you want to stay away from fights, the first lesson to be learned is to stay away from other crews and where other crews might show up.

  • a10dr4651
    Captain
    Insider

    @kingcrayontv this game is far from being one of the most toxic. It probably has one of the best communities in fact. Many of the mainstream games out there are much more toxic than this game. Are there some bad eggs in this game, of course but most just want to have fun and be a pirate (this includes sinking other players). The PvPvE game mechanic isn't for everyone and I applaud Rare for upholding this value. It's old school gaming at its finest, nothing holding your hand, no safe zones, just pick up that cutlass and give it your all. You sink, you learn, you fight harder. Its not about the gold, its about the commendat.. I mean glory

  • Lem0n Curry
    Champion
    Insider

    @kingcrayontv said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @lem0n-curry i didn't have enough experience tom know where those places are i would ask where they are but given the experience of fanboys defending their game with subliminal "git gud" i think im just going to uninstall and find a game and community worth my time

    Those places are mostly the world events that get "advertised" by giant things in the sky. If you can see it from the other side of the map, so can everybody else. Don't need a lot of hours in game to make that conclusion.

    Same goes for Veil storms ... there is probably a ship nearby doing it and one or more ships waiting for them to finish. All of them might want to attack you when you get to close, either to protect their progress or their possible victim :).

  • Sshteeve
    Captain
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @kingcrayontv I'm going to go ahead and ask that you stop pinging me now that you have fallen into off-topic argument and simple name calling. I will also do you the courtesy of dropping in the forum rules: https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/97111/sea-of-thieves-community-code-of-conduct-forum-rules/2

    Some points to be mindful of...

    • Be courteous. Don’t insult players you don’t know
    • Any activity you engage in that is solely designed to target and upset another player or crew constitutes bullying
    • Making off topic posts to derail the conversation

    Cheers and have a good day matey.

  • CotU42
    Lord
    Insider

    @kingcrayontv said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @cotu42 the lows and highs are irrelevant when you come to the game as a solo player and every server is the same bunch of kids on brigs patrolling outposts for an easy sink, that same freedom that empowers crews to have an exciting experience also empowers people to act like unloved children and lash out at people attempting to enjoy a game and at this point those players vastly outnumber the ones who are respecting that freedom

    The vast majority of my time on the seas has been solo and I have been sailing for years. It is a PvEvP game, being solo can be rough at times, but can also very rewarding and exhilarating. It is considered the hardest crew size for a reason. The game is built with the idea of having a crew.

    You are a brand new player, yet claim to know the lows and the highs the game can bring? Maybe you should take a moment to learn how to be a pirate before you lay claims on the nature of all pirates? Pirates are quite paranoid when encountering others, they are quick to draw a sword and tempted by treasure.

    You are just coming across as a bit entitled, expecting to be a master pirate while you barely got your sea legs. A PvEvP game means that any player you encounter can be a threat, it is on you to dissuade them from seeing you as easy pickings. Learn to sail, learn to position yourself and your ship properly and use your speaking horn if you seek friendly encounters. Pirates fighting and sinking other ships are not toxic.

    Some tips from an old salty pirate;

    1. Treasure is not that important your own abilities is what truly matters, learn and enjoy the experiences you have. The treasure will start flowing once you get the hang of it.
    2. Watch the horizon, even when occupied take a moment every so often to look up and spot the sails around you. Knowing you are in an encounter is where it all starts.
    3. When parking raise those sails, raise your anchor and face open waters. This allows you to turn and quickly get moving if required.
    4. Learn how each ship sails, how to manage the sails as naval positioning is the base of each encounter.
    5. Learn to guard your ladders, unwanted visitors are extremely dangerous.

    Good luck and happy sailing.

  • MopWieldingHedgehog
    Lord
    Insider
    Moderator
    Boatswain

    @kingcrayontv said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @sshteeve yeah except this thread only proves that on top of toxic, bored pvp kids it has gatekeeping toxic thread communities that bristle at any bit of critism , when you hear of bad player experiences maybe try to take their experience into account and provide tips and insight and by the way if SoT is boasting over 25 million players why is their twitter only followed by half a million, that speaks volumes to the fact that they are boasting 25 million accounts and less than 1/25 of them actually show any interest in the game because there are probably alot of people like me that left the game after having my experience, 25 million accounts with 250k daily concurrant players is a sad state and downward spiral, steam show a loss of 1/3 of its playerbase in the last month going from 15k to 11k your game is bleeding players because of its toxicity and by the way this is 8 straight days of mostly bad encounters its not a single experience that i am upset and yellign to the forums about its to bring attention to a pattern. so dismissing a fresh perspective on the game from a new player is sad to say the least and more than likely the reason why they have 25 million accounts and and 1/100 of that retained as a daily player base, and you don't have to worry about these people in the community saying these things at least from me, i would never identify as a part of this toxic dumpster fire and am definitely now done playing the game if you are any indication of this laughable games "community"

    I'll tell you what I tell everyone else - you are wildly speculating here. The fact is you don't have access to the actual numbers and statistics that you are trying to use to make your point. Try a different approach.

  • OtherFanboy
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @aktnbastion we are pirate no ever said we had to be fair wanna steal loot with no risk go for it wanna have a pile of chests and risk if all in a fight you can do that too it’s up to each crew choose their own risk reward

  • Captain Coel
    Captain
    Insider

    @kingcrayontv said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @lem0n-curry i didn't have enough experience tom know where those places are i would ask where they are but given the experience of fanboys defending their game with subliminal "git gud" i think im just going to uninstall and find a game and community worth my time

    Admitting that this game is not for you is okay. Moving on is okay. Good Luck in your next game.

  • Junior7973
    Master

    KingCrayonTV Pretty big words for a new player to already know and can label how the SoT community is/are would even go as far as to call it bigotry...

  • Captain Coel
    Captain
    Insider

    @kingcrayontv said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @captain-coel like most open world sandbox games that rely on an online function to keep their game on life support, people ruin it, games great, the people less so

    This community is great. I've played with and against people from the forums. Made some of my best friends through open crew near the release of the game and still play with them. Made even more friends because of twitch communities built on this game. Maybe it's not us that are the problem.

  • Metal Ravage
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @kingcrayontv said in PvP Balance and Incentives:

    @captain-coel like most open world sandbox games that rely on an online function to keep their game on life support, people ruin it, games great, the people less so

    SOT is not like other sandbox games, there is a freedom to action that other titles lack. Furthermore while other games struggle after the first few years, SOT has flourished in many aspects. This is thanks to the devs who pay attention to the community and the dedication of the players to SOT; so before reaching conclusions and generalizing I suggest you to take your time and learn from this experience. A change of tactics would be advised and using LFH comes in handy as well.

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